crucified UPSIDE DOWN at HIeRApolis
Art Neuendorffer
. Some interesting 5-letter Rollett strings
. "found in arrays based on the first 144 letters
. of the dedication to Shakespeare's Sonnets.":
.
_________ *HIRAM* : 1706u
_________ *NAILE* : _2106d
.
Terry Ross site: http://shakespeareauthorship.com/wds1.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Terry Ross (t...@bcpl.net)
Subject: Re: Rosencraft & Guildenstone flip coins
Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
Date: 2000-11-27 03:53:28 PST
.
Odds of picking 5 letters at random out of the 144 in the dedication
. and getting *HIRAM* are 10/144 * 14/143 * 9/142* 5/141 * 2/140 or
about 1 in 4.6 million. There are 2520 5-letter slots in the arrays,
. and since Rollett allowed words to appear reading either up
. or down, there are in effect 5040 places to search for *HIRAM*
.
. The chance of finding *HIRAM* somewhere
. in some array is thus about 1 in 909.
---------------------------------------------------------
__________ *PHILIP MARLOwe*
.
<<According to tradition, *St. PHILIP* preached in Greece
. and *was crucified UPSIDE DOWN at HI(e)RApolis*
. in Phrygia under Emperor Domitian, c. 80 AD.>>
.
. T O T H E O N _ _ L I E B E G E T T
. E R O F T H E _ _ S E I N S V I N G
. S O N N E T S _ M _ R W H A L L H A
. P P I N E S S E _ A _ N D T H A T E
. T E R N I T I E P____ R O _ M I S E D
. B Y O V R E V E R L I _ V I N G P
. O E T W I S H E T H T H _ E W E L
. L W I S H I N G A D V E ___ N T V R
. E R I N S E T T I N G F ___ O R T H
.
The Golden Legend says that *St. PHILIP* drove away
*a dragon of the Temple of MARs with the CROSS*
.
In art since the 15th century, *St. PHILIP* is portrayed
as an apostle holding a staff with a small cross on it.
*It is like the STAVES used by St. mIcHael & St. MARgaret*
in overcoming dragon-like demons, and likely refers
to the incident in the Temple of Mars.
------------------------------------------------------
Peter Bull wrote:
.
<<I had found the *MAR-LO* in the Rollett grid myself. It
looked suggestive to me, especially as it forms a counter diagonal
to HENRY, but I couldn't pin it down or see huge improbability in it.
I definitely hadn't noticed the HI - LO transposition that makes
*HIRAM MARLO* . Now that is very, very interesting.>>
---------------------------------------------------------
__________ *PHILIP MARLOwe*
<<According to tradition, *St. PHILIP* preached in Greece
. and *was crucified UPSIDE DOWN at HIeRApolis*
. in Phrygia under Emperor Domitian, c. 80 AD.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
. http://burlwrite.com/facts.htm
*PHILIP MARLOwe* fans may not know that Raymond Chandler,
creator of the famous sleuth, never lived for more than
one year at any location in Los Angeles.
L.A. neighborhoods in which the author lived included:
SilVER Lake (mentioned in Tailing Philip Marlowe),
*LAUREL* Canyon (Marlowe's residence in The Long Goodbye)
------------------------------------------------------------
<<The High Window is perhaps *PHILIP MARLOwe* 's most baffling case...
and the reader is left to his own conclusions. Asked to retrieve a
stolen coin [i.e., a counterfeit Dutch shilling], Marlowe tough guy
exterior turns to compassion when he meets up with an old lady
[i.e., Dame ELEANOR BULL] and her frightened young secretary
[i.e., Blanche Parry] - who share a deadly secret.>> --
http://www.lanocturne.com/books/chandler.shtml
--------------------------------------------------------------------
_________ *ELEANOR BULL*
_________ *NOBLE LAUREL*
_________ *EULER BALLON*
<<On September 7, 1783 EULER spent the first half of the day as usual.
He gave a mathematics lesson to one of his GRANDCHILDREN, did some
calculations with chalk on two boards on the motion of BALLOONS; then
discussed with Lexell & Fuss the recently discovered planet URANUS.
About five o'clock in the afternoon he suffered a brain haemorrhage
and uttered only "I am dying" before he lost consciousness.
EULER died about ELEVEN o'clock in the evening.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
September 7 : Feastday of St. REGINA
--------------------------------------------------------------------
September 7, 1533 Elizabeth REGINA, England born.
_____________ MERcury evening star conj. SPICA
.
September 7, 1596 Poet James Sherley baptized.
.
Sept. 7, 1598 (Thurs.) MERES' *Palladis Tamia*, registered
_____________ (Eliz. I's 65th birthday)
.
Sept. 7, 1783 (Thurs.) EULER BALLON pops (Eliz. I's 250th birthday)
_________________ MERcury evening star conj. SPICA
-------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
.
<<I saw the movie today. When Saints come into the world...
when reading the history of these Saints, whether of Jesus,
Shakespeare, or Marlowe, I think we should try to keep an open
mind. Quite often, the truth has been altered and corrupted.
.
This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
.
It's possible that Mary Magdalene could have become a Saint, or even
a successor of Christ. Based on the quotes attributed to Jesus'
appointment of St. Peter as his successor, i.e. giving him the keys
to the Kingdom of Heaven, so that he could bind those on EARTH, so
they could be bound in heaven, I wouldn't want to demote or replace
St. Peter, just based on what I saw in the movie. Jesus could have
had more than one successor, however, that is entirely possible.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------
<<Stephen, taking his ashplant from its leaningplace, followed them
out and, as they went down the ladder, pulled to the slow iron door
and locked it. He put the huge key in his inner pocket. At the foot
of the ladder Buck Mulligan asked: -- Did you bring the key?
-- I have it, Stephen said, preceding them. He walked on.
Behind him he heard Buck Mulligan club with his heavy bathtowel
the leader shoots of ferns or grasses.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michelangelo. Crucifixion of Saint Peter. 1546-1550.
. Frescoes. Pauline Chapel, Vatican.
.
Crucifixion of apostle Peter, Rome, AD 69 (Eeghen 663)
.
http://www.wga.hu/html/c/caravagg/05/28ceras.html
http://www.mezzo-mondo.com/arts/mm/caravaggio/CAM010.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio26.html
----------------------------------------------------------
*The Globe burned down on St.Peter's day* 1613
.
_ [e]
_- [r]
_ [e] ___ [T]
. [d V e] _- [T]
_____ [T]
----------------------------------------------------------
_ TOTHEO [N] l ____ I _ <E>BE G _ ETTERO
_ FTHESE_ [I] n ___ S - U<I>N G __ SONNET
_ SMrWha_- [L] L __ [H]a P <P> I__ [N] ESSEA
_ NDthat____[E] T __ [E]r _ N <I> T___[I] EPROM
_ ISEDB Y O u ___- [R]e V <E> R [L] IVING
P_ OEtW I s h ____ [E]t _ H [T] H___[E] WELLW
I_ ShIN- G a ______ [d V e] N [T] u ______ ReRINS
E_ tTIN G fort__________ H [T] t
.
____________ <= 19 =>
--------------------------------------------------------
. _The SCOURGE of Folly_ by *JOHN* ( *Davies* )
....................................................
. To our English Terence, Mr. Will. Shake-speare.
.
. Some say (good Will) which I, in sport, do sing,
. Had'st thou not plaid some Kingly parts in sport,
. Thou hadst bin a companion for a King;.
.
. And, beene *A KING AMONG THE MEANER SORT*
------------------------------------------------------------------
*Wouldn't want to demote or replace JOHN {the Divine } either*
------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him,
. on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. { *T T T* }
.
JOHN 19:19 And ... Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the CROSS.
_____________________ And the writing was,
__________ *JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS*
.
JOHN 19:33 when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already,
. they *BRAKE* not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a *SPEAR*
. pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is *TRUE*:
. and he knoweth that he saith *TRUE*, that ye might believe.
---------------------------------------------------------------
. tO.thE.onLie.BegEttEr.oF.
.
. [F]er[E]tt[E]ge[B]ei[L]on[E]ht{O}t
.
. [F]ee[B]le{O}
- r----a
- a----c
- n----o
- c----n
- i "the ONdt": [F]RANCIS [B]acON
- s "the GraceHOPEr": [E.O.]xford
---------------------------------------------------------------
. FW 414: fable one, *FEEBLE* too.
. Let us here consider the caSUS,
. my dear little COUSIS
. of the Ondt and the GraceHOPEr.
.
FW 507.6: clapping his hands in a *FEEBLE* sort of way
. and systematically mixing with the public
. St Mattho take thy *HOPPER* [basket] and sow.
FW 419.(*F3*): My in risible uniVERsE youdly haud find
. Sulch OXtraBEEForeness meat soVEAL behind.
. Your feats end enormous, your VOLUMES immense,
(May the Graces I HOPEd for sing your ONDTship song sense!),
. Your genus its worldwide, your spacest sublime!
. But, Holy Saltmartin, why can't you beat time?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Disputation with Simon Magus and Crucifixion of Peter 1481-82
Cappella Brancacci, Santa Maria del Carmine, Florence
http://keptar.demasz.hu/arthp/art/l/lippi/flippino/brancacc/cruc_pet.jpg
.
The Crucifixion of St Peter - The Beheading of St John the Baptist
. (predella panel from the Pisa Altar) Masaccio 1426
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/M/masaccio/masaccio_peter.jpg.html
.
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio32.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio37.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio47.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio7.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yogi Buchon wrote:
.
<<The The statue scene in WT is a strange deviation from Greene's
*Pandosto*. During this scene the author includes a reference
to Giulio Romano, a rather obscure Italian artist who would not
have been known to very many people in an English audience.
.
. Why mention Romano?
. Is this some sort of a puzzle for readers to solve?
. If it's a puzzle, here's one possible solution:
.
WT was written about 1610, and the statue scene, a scene of
resurrection, is set in Sicily. Was there a famous Italian artist
painting in Sicily in a very realistic way, as opposed to Mannerist,
who painted a resurrection scene? Why, lo and behold, Michelangelo
Merisi da Caravaggio had painted *The Raising of Lazarus* in
Sicily near the time WT was written. What a coincidence!!
.
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/c/caravagg/10/65lazar.html
.
<<Most of Caravaggio's religious subjects emphasize sadness,
suffering & death. In 1609 he dealt with the triumph of life
and in doing so created the most visionary picture of his career.
.
Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary, was the patron of Giovanni
Battista de' Lazzari, to whom Caravaggio was contracted to paint
an altarpiece in the church of the Padri Crociferi. The Gospel
of St John tells how Lazarus fell sick, died, was buried
and then miraculously raised from the dead by Christ.
.
Once again, the scene is set against blank walls that overwhelm the
actors, who once more are laid out like figures on a frieze. Some of
them, says Susinno, were modelled on members of the community, but at
this stage Caravaggio did not have time to base himself wholly on models
and relied on his memory - the whole design is based on an engraving
after Giulio Romano and his Jesus is a reversed image of the Christ
who called Matthew to join him.
.
There is a remarkable contrast between the flexible bodies of the
grieving sisters and the near-rigid corpse of their brother. In the
gospel Martha reminds Jesus that, as her brother had been dead four
days, he would stink, but here nobody detracts from the dignity of
the moment by holding his nose. Jesus is the resurrection and the
life and in the darkness through him the truth is revealed.>>
.
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio24.html
.....................................................
Yogi Buchon wrote:
.
<<Well, how about another coincidence?
Caravaggio copied Giulio Romano's pose of Patroclus
in his painting of Lazarus. This copied pose has been
well noted in art literature. And another coincidence? Both
Romano & Caravaggio did artistic work for the Knights of Malta.>>
.
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio56.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio20.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio11.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravaggio/caravaggio8.html
----------------------------------------------------
*MAR-LO* forms a small "upside down" cross.
*de VERE* forms a slightly larger upside down cross:
----------------------------------------------------------
_ TOTHEO [N] l ____ I _ <E>BE G _ ETTERO
_ FTHESE_ [I] n ___ S - U<I>N G __ SONNET
_ SMrWha_- [L] L __ [H]a P <P> I__ [N] ESSEA
_ NDthat____[E] T __ [E]r _ N <I> T___[I] EPROM
_ ISEDB Y O u ___- [R]e V <E> R [L] IVING
P_ OEtW I s h ____ [E]t _ H [T] H___[E] WELLW
I_ ShIN- G a ______ [d V e] N [T] u ______ ReRINS
E_ tTIN G fort__________ H [T] t
.
____________ <= 19 =>
.
<<The Tau: *T* is the 19th letter of the Greek alphabet.
In ancient times it was regarded as the symbol of life.>>
---------------------------------------------------------
. From: volker multhopp (vol...@erols.com)
. Subject: *Sonnets* Dedication -- the RolleTT cipher
. Date: 1998/09/29
.
<<Here is the dedication to Shakespeare's *Sonnets*:
.
_ TO THE ONLIE BEGETTOR OF
__ THESE INSVING SONNETS
. Mr W H ALL HAPPINESSE
__ AND THAT ETERNITIE
____ PROMISED
_______ BY
. OVR EVER-LIVING POET
___ WISHETH
__ THE WELL-WISHING
__ ADVENTVRER IN
____ SETTING
_____ FORTH
______ T.T.
.
[Notes on appearance: The dedication was "center-justified", ie
left-right symmetrical. This will appear approximately correct with
a fixed-width font like Courrier, but the lines will be scrunched
to the left in a proportional font like most readers use. Also,
the hyphens in "well-wishing" and "ever-living" are extremely
short and low-set in the original, almost indistinguishable
from the odd dots between the other words.]
.
This very strange dedication (note: "poet" has to play subject
of "wishes" *and* object of the preposition "by"!) has lead
many people to suspect there is a meaning hidden here. English
physicist I.M. RolleTT discovered the following cipher (and
at the time, he hadn't even heard of the Oxford theory!)--
.
Besides the strained language, there are other oddities. Most striking
are the weird dots between each word-- this suggests someone is counting
the words. Furthermore (more apparent in the original rather than this
crude etext reproduction), the words are arranged in three triangles.
Counting the lines in the triangles, we get a number sequence: 6,2,4.
Using these number, let's now count off[1] the words, marking
the 6th, 2nd, and 4th words, and then repeat the process:
.
_ TO THE ONLIE BEGETTOR OF
. *THESE* INSVING *SONNETS*
_ Mr W H *ALL* HAPPINESSE
___ AND THAT ETERNITIE
_____ PROMISED
________ *BY*
_ OVR *EVER*-LIVING POET
_____ WISHETH
_ *THE* WELL-WISHING
___ ADVENTVRER IN
_____ SETTING
_____ *FORTH*
_________ T.T.
.
. Now let's pull the marked words:
.
. *THESE SONNETS ALL BY EVER THE FORTH*
.
Now EVER is a known play on *Edward de VERE*, the
17th earl of Oxford. What *THE FORTH* means is now lost to us,>>
--------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote: [But] RolleTT's methods,
.
if consistently applied, point to *T*
------------------------------------------------
_ TO THE ONLIE BEGETTOR OF
. *THESE* INSVING *SONNETS*
_ Mr W H *ALL* HAPPINESSE
___ AND THAT ETERNITIE
_____ PROMISED
________ *BY*
_ OVR *EVER*-LIVING POET
_____ WISHETH
_ *THE* WELL-WISHING
___ ADVENTVRER IN
_____ SETTING
_____ *FORTH*
_______ T.*T* .
---------------------------------------------
<< THESE SONNETS ALL BY EVER *THE FORTH T* >>
----------------------------------------------
*The Globe burned down on St.Peter's day* 1613
.
_ [e]
_- [r]
_ [e] ___ [T]
. [d V e] _- [T]
_____ [T]
------------------------------------------------------
http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/The%20Tau%20and%20the%20Triple%20T...
.
*The Triple Tau* : the most important symbol of [R]oyal [A]rch [M]asonry
.
It has been said that three Taus come together to form the Triple Tau.
.
. Some say the Triple Tau is originally the
. coming together of a T and a H, forming , meaning
.
. [T]emplum [H]ierosolyma : "the Temple of Jerusalem"
.
. "Clavis ad [TH]esaurum" : "A key to the treasure"
.
. "[TH]eca ubi res pretiosa" :
. "Place where the precious thing is concealed."
-----------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Art Neuendorffer
>
>>This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
You might wish to know that you're an idiot.
All the best,
Art Neuendorffer
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
Do try to keep the difference between fact and fiction clear in your
mind - again.
Art Neuendorffer
>>>
>>>>This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>>>the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
>>>
>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>>You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>
>> You might wish to know that you're an idiot.
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Do try to keep the difference between
> fact and fiction clear in your mind - again.
It's a fact that you're an idiot.
John W. Kennedy
> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
>
> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Bianca Steele
> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>
> Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
Actually, so far it's a lot of misunderstood research, misrepresented
by people with agendas to promote, assigned basically at random to the
institution that appears to some to be the most powerful institution of
which they are aware, apparently in the vain hope that lying in the
service of an underrepresented position could be helpful.
Your characterization will get real people about as far as Camille
Paglia's exhortation to the generation following her that they should
refuse to read Derrida and Foucault. After Foucault has devolved to
Paglia, and Paglia to Brown, what do YOU think is going to come next?
Maybe everyone will return to the pure, uncorrupted religions of their
grandfathers in the Old Country, and forget about this effete
literature stuff?
--
Bianca Steele
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
> John W. Kennedy wrote:
> > roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
> >
> > Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
>
You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Bianca Steele
The "_square_ cross -- with four arms of equal length" is emphatically
not "the ... Christian cross," but rather an entirely different visual
form; this particular symbol "predated Christianity by fifteen hundred
years" and has _always_ "carried none of the Christian connotations ...
associated with" that previously mentioned "Christian cross." (156)
That is not represented as fiction, but as the result of scholarship.
Leonardo Da Vinci's famous painting, the _Madonna of the Rocks_, is
"notorious among art historians" because, unusual in Western visual
art, in it can be found "a plethora of hidden pagan symbolism." (144)
A secret society once headed by Isaac Newton and most recently
associated with supporters of Hitler is the foremost advocate of
feminism today -- and it wants to restore the ancient practices of
rural midwives to their proper place in society and to their proper
guardians, the women. (134-135)
All represented as the result of sober scholarship. We are supposed to
accept that the fiction is based on this skeleton of "fact."
--
Bianca Steele
Mark Steese
@fe10.lga:
> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
>>
>> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>
> Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
Disguised? Fiction is normally a load of lies and bullshit. Shakespeare can
get away with people climbing to chimney-tops to see brave Pompey passing
by because he's writing fiction rather than history. The principal
difference between Shakespeare and Dan Brown is talent, not veracity.
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Elizabeth
> --------------------------------------------------------
That's boring. The puzzle editor of the London
Telegraph found B.A.C.O.N. in I think the third
line which makes the legitimate Elizabethan anagram,
THE ONLIE BEGETTER OF THIS SONNET B.A.C.O.N.
The reason I didn't post on it a year ago is that
CIPHERS ARE NOT EVIDENCE. With a few exceptions they
don't have witnesses.
laraine
>...Camille Paglia's exhortation to the generation
>following her that they should refuse to read
>Derrida and Foucault.
I see a quote from her:
"Foucault sees power everywhere except where it
is greatest: the female principle... "
I have heard something to the effect that Foucault
writes about females as already having some power
(depending on the situation, of course), even
though they might seem to think they do not, so I'm
not sure exactly what Paglia is criticizing....(her
quote was just off the web, so don't know all the
context) --it rather seems that she is agreeing with
him there, but I'd have to read Foucault and Paglia
to know for sure. Maybe you are familiar with the
issues of power as Foucault sees it--I have not
actually read his works on that subject, and indeed
am not even sure of the titles.
And I don't see why we should not read Foucault--I'm not
sure I completely trust someone telling me not to read
certain writings. Perhaps Paglia thinks that he implies that
females already have enough power and should not desire
more, which seems like a possible reasonable objection
to him, if that is what he implies, though I had assumed
that he was somewhat journalistic and not making
a judgment on it. It could be that she is just suggesting
that he is not saying enough about it.
And I wonder why she does not like Derrida.
C.
Art Neuendorffer
> .
> <<I saw the movie today. When Saints come into the world...
> when reading the history of these Saints, whether of Jesus,
> Shakespeare, or Marlowe, I think we should try to keep an open
> mind. Quite often, the truth has been altered and corrupted.
> .
> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
> .
> It's possible that Mary Magdalene could have become a Saint, or even
> a successor of Christ. Based on the quotes attributed to Jesus'
> appointment of St. Peter as his successor, i.e. giving him the keys
> to the Kingdom of Heaven, so that he could bind those on EARTH, so
> they could be bound in heaven, I wouldn't want to demote or replace
> St. Peter, just based on what I saw in the movie. Jesus could have
> had more than one successor, however, that is entirely possible.>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth wrote:
> That's boring. The puzzle editor of the London
> Telegraph found B.A.C.O.N. in I think the third
> line which makes the legitimate Elizabethan anagram,
> THE ONLIE BEGETTER OF THIS SONNET B.A.C.O.N.
Which SONNET is that?
Elizabeth wrote:
> The reason I didn't post on it a year ago is that
> CIPHERS ARE NOT EVIDENCE. With a few exceptions
> they don't have witnesses.
Well...I agree that HLAS is NOT a competent tribunal:
-----------------------------------------------------
*EVIDENCE* , n. [F. évidence, L. Evidentia.]
(Law) That which is legally submitted to competent tribunal,
as a means of ascertaining the truth of any alleged matter
of fact under investigation before it; means of making proof;
-- the latter, strictly speaking, not being synonymous
with evidence, but rather the effect of it.
-----------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
John W. Kennedy
I repeat, it is a pack of outright lies disguised as fiction.
Dan Brown is a liar, and he is also a contemptible coward for hiding
behind "It's only fiction" after the fact, when he had first put it into
writing, where all his cullies would see it, that his lies were
legitimate history.
John W. Kennedy
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in news:HqXdg.172$Yq3.111
> @fe10.lga:
>
>> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>>> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
>>> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>> Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
>
> Disguised? Fiction is normally a load of lies and bullshit. Shakespeare can
> get away with people climbing to chimney-tops to see brave Pompey passing
> by because he's writing fiction rather than history. The principal
> difference between Shakespeare and Dan Brown is talent, not veracity.
Brown the lying coward swore that all the lies in his book were true
until he was called on it.
But even if that were not true, the "fiction" argument depends on an
absurdly naïve image of how people read books. When Dorothy L. Sayers
describes in "Gaudy Night" a portion of the plot of C. P. Snow's novel,
"The Search", do you assume that there was no such person as C. P. Snow,
or that he never wrote such a novel, or that the plot has no resemblance
to what she describes? When Anne Perry mentions children who earned
their keep in Victorian London by sweeping crosswalks in the hope of
earning tips, do you assume she's merely fantasizing? Is it likely that
a reader 1,000 years from now would assume that 20th-century American
racism was merely something invented by Harper Lee to make an exciting plot?
Of course not. Human beings do not read fiction in that way.
Would /anyone/ -- anyone sane -- accept, or even tolerate, the "It's
only fiction" argument if someone were to write a novel in which a
kindly old university professor expounded on the secret wisdom of "The
Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? It's not as extreme an example as you
are no doubt thinking; one of my hobbies being Arthurian literature, I
was familiar with the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" nonsense long before
Brown ran across it in his trawling of the academic sewers; looking at
my "Sent" folder, I find it was back in 2003 that I ran across a website
setting forth a "secret link" between the HBHG "conspiracy" and the
"Protocols". (It is a truism of modern logic that, in any system
containing a contradiction, anything can be proved; perhaps this is an
example. Or perhaps it is merely an instance of "Devil with Devil damn'd
/ Firm concord holds....")
Art Neuendorffer
> Brown the lying coward swore that all the lies
> in his book were true until he was called on it.
Brown has always claimed that _The Da Vinci Code_ was
an original piece of fiction based upon a number of
Facts stated in the front of the book.
As far as I know Brown has not rejected any
of the Facts stated in the front of the book.
No one would care about the Facts
stated in the front of the book
if the book were not so popular.
Art Neuendorffer
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in news:HqXdg.172$Yq3.111
> @fe10.lga:
>
>
>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>
>>>>This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>>>the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own tastes.
>>>
>>>You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>>
>>Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
>
>
> Disguised? Fiction is normally a load of lies and bullshit. Shakespeare can
> get away with people climbing to chimney-tops to see brave Pompey passing
> by because he's writing fiction rather than history. The principal
> difference between Shakespeare and Dan Brown is talent, not veracity.
I would compare Shakespeare's distortions of history to those of Oliver
Stone rather than Dan Brown.
Actually I haven't read Dan Brown's book, neither have I followed any of
the debate surrounding it. I read a movie review that said it was like
"National Treasure" with the fun taken out, and so I decided not to
bother with it. So my above statement should be taken as an attempt to
sound superficially clever rather than any kind of wisdom.
But, back to the point, I don't consider the mention of chimney-tops in
"Julius Caesar" as an attempt to mislead its audience.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
My my, these Shakespeare scholars can sound really impressive when they
get into a full blown argument.
Stephen
The Historian
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
I read a movie review that said it was like
> "National Treasure" with the fun taken out, and so I decided not to
> bother with it.
Darn, I had hoped the movie had a scene with someone putting lemon
juice on the back of old documents. I don't know which is more amusing,
the thought that lemon juice would be used that way, or that a bowl of
cut lemons just happened to be in the fridge....
Bianca Steele
Having just responded to a not-young Jewish person's questions about
the representation of Catholicism in the movie (someone who'd already
read the book and had strongly recommended it to me), concerning very
basic points of Christian doctrine, which this person had had no idea
concerning (and which I may have learned about in graduate school),
perhaps "the movie is FICTION*" is no more a sufficient response than
to cry "anti-Catholicism." Apparently the movie "accuses" the Catholic
Church of insisting its priests must mediate encounters between the
believer and God. Many people have no way to determine whether that's
a slander or merely an insult: you may just now have persuaded them of
the former, when the latter is really the case.
One might with equal justice "accuse" Judaism of having no
international body that decides on doctrine.
People might want to be careful before declaring "hands off" any book
that touches on (their own) religion, without first examining both the
text and what its readers are making of it. That said, I haven't read
enough of Brown to know what side he's on, and if he's learned enough
tricks of the writing trade, I don't think that matters.
--
Bianca Steele
P.S. I kind of liked _National Treasure_. Didn't you think the
eyeglasses were a nice touch? A little inside joke (Nicholas Cage was
born Nicholas Coppola).
Tom Reedy
news:1148841758.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
So what's the deal with lemon juice?
When I was a kid, we would use lemon juice as "invisible ink" that would
show up if you passed a flame under the paper, but I never heard of putting
it on the back of old documents.
TR (who hasn't seen the movie either, but who got roped into seeing it next
week for a library benefit at $25 a ticket)
Tom Reedy
news:1148844801.2...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>> >>>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own
>> >>>>> tastes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> You might wish to know that you're an idiot.
>> >
>> >
>> > roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> >
>> >> Do try to keep the difference between
>> >> fact and fiction clear in your mind - again.
>> >
>> >
>> > It's a fact that you're an idiot.
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> >
>> > Art Neuendorffer
>>
>> My my, these Shakespeare scholars can sound really impressive when they
>> get into a full blown argument.
>>
>> Stephen
>
>
> Having just responded to a not-young Jewish person's questions about
> the representation of Catholicism in the movie (someone who'd already
> read the book and had strongly recommended it to me),
Anybody's who's read the book has my admiration: I tried, but it was like
chewing tinfoil. I made it about four pages, a much less-successful effort
than the time I tried to read Danielle Steele.
> concerning very
> basic points of Christian doctrine, which this person had had no idea
> concerning (and which I may have learned about in graduate school),
> perhaps "the movie is FICTION*" is no more a sufficient response than
> to cry "anti-Catholicism." Apparently the movie "accuses" the Catholic
> Church of insisting its priests must mediate encounters between the
> believer and God. Many people have no way to determine whether that's
> a slander or merely an insult: you may just now have persuaded them of
> the former, when the latter is really the case.
Doesn't it accuse the Church of insisting that its members pray to statues
while its priests decipher God's will from bird entrails?
>
> One might with equal justice "accuse" Judaism of having no
> international body that decides on doctrine.
Yes, I've always known Judaism was a false religion because of that, not to
mention the poisoning wells and killing sick people under walls thing.
>
> People might want to be careful before declaring "hands off" any book
> that touches on (their own) religion, without first examining both the
> text and what its readers are making of it. That said, I haven't read
> enough of Brown to know what side he's on, and if he's learned enough
> tricks of the writing trade, I don't think that matters.
I think Brown is on the side of the cash registers.
TR
Bianca Steele
> I think Brown is on the side of the cash registers.
So if he were writing literary fiction, it wouldn't matter? Your
average ticketbuyer to a Hollywood film can afford to be more
discerning than your average captive freshman, and puts up with less
bs.
--
Bianca Steele
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
Perhaps an advantage of this book is that it raises these kinds of
questions, and gives people a chance to correct misconceptions. There
is now so much broohah about how this book distorts reality that I think
that it has turned into a very real opportunity for the Church to make
its message loud and clear. My sense is that the issues Dan Brown has
raised are really rather old. For example I found books on the
bookshelf of an Orthodox Jew that contained writings from the first few
centuries AD that would make your friend think that Dan Brown's book is
merely a popularization of already well established ideas. But now
these ideas have been expressed so openly, it gives people a real chance
to discredit them for what they are.
> P.S. I kind of liked _National Treasure_. Didn't you think the
> eyeglasses were a nice touch? A little inside joke (Nicholas Cage was
> born Nicholas Coppola).
I also enjoyed the movie. But what made the movie fun was, well, its
sense of fun. I wouldn't want to watch such a movie that took itself in
any way seriously.
Stephen
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>
>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>
>>>>>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine and
>>>>>>>the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own
>>>>>>>tastes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You might wish to know that you're an idiot.
>>>
>>>
>>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do try to keep the difference between
>>>> fact and fiction clear in your mind - again.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a fact that you're an idiot.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>Art Neuendorffer
>>
>>My my, these Shakespeare scholars can sound really impressive when they
>>get into a full blown argument.
>>
>>Stephen
>
>
>
> .........................
> perhaps "the movie is FICTION*" is no more a sufficient response than
> to cry "anti-Catholicism."
> .........................
Also, it was not my intent to praise Roger's response "the movie is
fiction" so much as to wonder about Art's response "you are an idiot."
But then again. maybe I am getting into the tail end of an argument that
I know nothing about, and maybe Art has explained repeatedly to Roger
that this answer is not sufficient, and has finally lost patience.
But I also wonder about Art and how he fits into this group. He has
many posts which seem to be huge lists of quotes from literature
containing a certain word. I have only tried reading one or two of his
posts, and I have to say I didn't really get anything out of them.
Anyway, it was nice to see Art respond with something other than another
huge list of quotes.
Best Stephen
Mark Steese
> Mark Steese wrote:
>> "John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in
>> news:HqXdg.172$Yq3.111 @fe10.lga:
>>
>>> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>>> This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine
>>>>> and the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their
>>>>> own tastes.
>>>> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>>> Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
>>
>> Disguised? Fiction is normally a load of lies and bullshit.
>> Shakespeare can get away with people climbing to chimney-tops to see
>> brave Pompey passing by because he's writing fiction rather than
>> history. The principal difference between Shakespeare and Dan Brown
>> is talent, not veracity.
>
> Brown the lying coward swore that all the lies in his book were true
> until he was called on it.
The Coen Brothers put a title card at the beginning of "Fargo" claiming
that it was all true. It wasn't. I didn't realize that made them lying
cowards. And I hate to think what that makes Shakespeare and Fletcher
for titling that Henry VIII play "All is True."
> But even if that were not true, the "fiction" argument depends on an
> absurdly naïve image of how people read books.
Not the way I use it, it doesn't.
> When Dorothy L. Sayers describes in "Gaudy Night" a portion of the
> plot of C. P. Snow's novel, "The Search", do you assume that there was
> no such person as C.P. Snow, or that he never wrote such a novel, or
> that the plot has no resemblance to what she describes? When Anne
> Perry mentions children who earned their keep in Victorian London by
> sweeping crosswalks in the hope of earning tips, do you assume she's
> merely fantasizing? Is it likely that a reader 1,000 years from now
> would assume that 20th-century American racism was merely something
> invented by Harper Lee to make an exciting plot?
They'd more likely assume she borrowed the idea from Ralph Ellison,
*Invisible Man* having predated Lee's work by several years. (Not that
Ellison introduced the theme into American fiction, either.)
> Of course not. Human beings do not read fiction in that way.
When Thomas Pynchon describes the plot and quotes from the dialogue of
Richard Wharfinger's play "The Courier's Tragedy" in "The Crying of Lot
49," do you assume that there was no such person as Richard Wharfinger,
or that he never wrote such a play? When Borges describes the belief of
the heresiarchs of Uqbar that both mirrors and copulation are abominable
because they multiply the visible universe, do you assume that there
never were heresiarchs of Uqbar? Is it likely that a reader 1,000 years
from now would assume that the cult of the elder god Cthulhu was merely
something invented by H. P. Lovecraft to make an exciting plot?
> Would /anyone/ -- anyone sane -- accept, or even tolerate, the "It's
> only fiction" argument if someone were to write a novel in which a
> kindly old university professor expounded on the secret wisdom of "The
> Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?
If Philip Roth wrote a novel with such a character, would you assume
that Roth was really espousing the ideas of the Protocols? Did you think
Roth meant the conspiracies described in "The Plot Against America" to
be taken as fact?
> It's not as extreme an example as you are no doubt thinking; one of my
> hobbies being Arthurian literature, I was familiar with the "Holy
> Blood, Holy Grail" nonsense long before Brown ran across it in his
> trawling of the academic sewers; looking at my "Sent" folder, I find
> it was back in 2003 that I ran across a website setting forth a
> "secret link" between the HBHG "conspiracy" and the "Protocols". (It
> is a truism of modern logic that, in any system containing a
> contradiction, anything can be proved; perhaps this is an example. Or
> perhaps it is merely an instance of "Devil with Devil damn'd / Firm
> concord holds....")
You seem to be assuming that I never read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." I
have, and am well aware of the authors' fatuous claim that the Protocols
were really about the Learned Elders of "Sion," i.e., the Priory boys.
Sadly, that doesn't even make the top ten of their most contemptible
assertions.
On the other hand, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" was published under the
rubric of nonfiction, so outrage at the nonsense concocted and/or
repeated by its authors is reasonable, but it is the fiction writer's
privilege to invent; and the reader who takes everything a writer of
fiction says about ostensibly factual matters as fact is naive indeed.
Melville really did sail aboard whaling ships and had firsthand
experience with whales, but that does not mean we should accept his
opinion, as stated in "Moby-Dick," that whales are fish rather than
mammals. There really was a Prince Hal, but that doesn't mean we should
accept his friendship with a fat knight named Sir John Falstaff as a
fact of history.
Tom Reedy
I thought I made it clear I have no idea what you're talking about.
TR
The Historian
Tom Reedy wrote:
> "The Historian" <Spam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1148841758.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> > I read a movie review that said it was like
> >> "National Treasure" with the fun taken out, and so I decided not to
> >> bother with it.
> >
> > Darn, I had hoped the movie had a scene with someone putting lemon
> > juice on the back of old documents. I don't know which is more amusing,
> > the thought that lemon juice would be used that way, or that a bowl of
> > cut lemons just happened to be in the fridge....
> >
>
> So what's the deal with lemon juice?
>
> When I was a kid, we would use lemon juice as "invisible ink" that would
> show up if you passed a flame under the paper, but I never heard of putting
> it on the back of old documents.
WARNING: SPOILER!
In "National Treasure", the Declaration of Independence is stolen
because a treasure map is encoded on the back. The map leads to the
lost treasure of the Knights Templar, which the Founding Fathers
(Freemasons to a man) had hidden from the British. After the
Declaration is stolen by the good guys to save it from the bad guys,
it, Nicholas Cage, and his cohorts wind up in the Philadelphia suburbs
trying to bring out the map by applying lemon juice and heat. They had
just thought of trying the lemon juice trick, and fortunately they had
a large bowl of cut lemons handy.
The movie is goofy good fun, Tom. I suggest renting it, and giving your
mind the night off.
Mark Steese
news:5_leg.994764$xm3.828223@attbi_s21:
>>>>>This movie does point out what happened, when Emperor Constantine
>>>>>and the Council of Nicea formed the Christian Religion to their own
>>>>>tastes.
>>>>
>>>>You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>>>
>>>Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
>>
>> Disguised? Fiction is normally a load of lies and bullshit.
>> Shakespeare can get away with people climbing to chimney-tops to see
>> brave Pompey passing by because he's writing fiction rather than
>> history. The principal difference between Shakespeare and Dan Brown
>> is talent, not veracity.
>
> I would compare Shakespeare's distortions of history to those of
> Oliver Stone rather than Dan Brown.
I'd say they're both comparable. Brown swiped the nonsense about the
Grail and the Priory of Sion from the ostensibly nonfiction work "The
Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" (published in the U.S. as "Holy Blood,
Holy Grail"), just as Shakespeare swiped the nonsense about Richard
III's evil deeds from the ostensibly nonfiction history of Richard
penned by Thomas More.
> Actually I haven't read Dan Brown's book, neither have I followed any
> of the debate surrounding it. I read a movie review that said it was
> like "National Treasure" with the fun taken out, and so I decided not
> to bother with it. So my above statement should be taken as an
> attempt to sound superficially clever rather than any kind of wisdom.
"National Treasure" was a mindless but surprisingly enjoyable movie;
through an unfortunate circumstance of timing it was widely assumed to
be ripping off Dan Brown, but the script had been kicking around before
Brown began publishing: "National Treasure" is actually a ripoff of the
Indiana Jones movies, with the clever twist that the treasure is in the
United States instead of India, Egypt, or the Holy Land.
> But, back to the point, I don't consider the mention of chimney-tops
> in "Julius Caesar" as an attempt to mislead its audience.
Neither do I; I was simply pointing out that a writer of fiction can get
away with things that a writer of nonfiction can't. Fiction may
incorporate historical facts, but only the most benighted reader would
assume that a fact recounted in a play or novel was necessarily true. To
take a minor example from "The Da Vinci Code," Brown has one of his
characters say that Jacques de Molay's ashes were dumped into the Tiber.
De Molay was burned to death on the Ile de la Cité; his ashes never went
anywhere near the Tiber. I don't think Brown was attempting to mislead
anyone; I think he just made a silly mistake. If he were a historian,
his slipshod work would be unacceptable; since he is instead a novelist,
his aesthetic defects are IMO of more consequence than his inability to
tell the difference between shit and Shinola.
Bianca Steele
> "Bianca Steele" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1148849064.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I thought I made it clear I have no idea what you're talking about.
I guess you hadn't made it quite clear just how offensive you intend to
be, nor how much you struggle with written communication.
--
Bianca Steele
Tom Reedy
TR
Bianca Steele
> "Bianca Steele" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1148857917.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Tom Reedy wrote:
> >> "Bianca Steele" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1148849064.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > [...]
> >>
> >> I thought I made it clear I have no idea what you're talking about.
> >
> > I guess you hadn't made it quite clear just how offensive you intend to
> > be, nor how much you struggle with written communication.
> >
> > --
> > Bianca Steele
> >
>
> I thought I made it clear I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> TR
What difference does that make?
--
Bianca Steele
Art Neuendorffer
> it was not my intent to praise Roger's response "the movie is
> fiction" so much as to wonder about Art's response "you are an idiot."
I put a lot of thought into most of my posts and seldom if ever receive
an intelligent reponse. From time to time, however, I simply post an
article which amuses me whether I agree with it or not. In this case,
I posted a critical review of the movie _The Da Vinci_ though I had
enjoyed the book and expect to enjoy the movie. So I was more than a
little pissed that roger assumed that this was (my own?) positive review
of the movie to which he gave a thoughtless canned response. My terse
response was to indicate to him that he is not even worthy of an
intelligent reponse, IMHO.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> But then again. maybe I am getting into the tail end of an argument that
> I know nothing about, and maybe Art has explained repeatedly to Roger
> that this answer is not sufficient, and has finally lost patience.
It didn't take me long to lose patience with roger.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> But I also wonder about Art and how he fits into this group.
Square *PEGE* ... round whole.
______ *PEGE* : *fountain* (Greek)
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> [Art] has many posts which seem
> to be huge lists of quotes from literature containing
> a certain word. I have only tried reading one or two of his
> posts, and I have to say I didn't really get anything out of them.
If you CAN'T get ANYTHING at all out of these
noncontroversial posts I suggest not bothering to read my posts.
> Anyway, it was nice to see Art respond with something
> other than another huge list of quotes.
If you got ANYTHING at all out of my informing roger that
he is an idiot I suggest not bothering to read my posts.
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
>>But, back to the point, I don't consider the mention of chimney-tops
>>in "Julius Caesar" as an attempt to mislead its audience.
Mark Steese wrote:
>
> Neither do I; I was simply pointing out that a writer of fiction can
> get away with things that a writer of nonfiction can't. Fiction may
> incorporate historical facts, but only the most benighted reader would
> assume that a fact recounted in a play or novel was necessarily true.
>To take a minor example from "The Da Vinci Code," Brown has one of his
> characters say that Jacques de Molay's ashes were dumped into the Tiber.
> De Molay was burned to death on the Ile de la Cité; his ashes never went
> anywhere near the Tiber. I don't think Brown was attempting to mislead
> anyone; I think he just made a silly mistake.
. I think Brown was very much attempting to mislead us;
. I think he made an intentional mistake
. referencing Globe like structures along the Tiber:
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.wilhelm-aerospace.org/Architecture/rome/tiber/Tiber.html
The Campus Martius and the Mausoleum of Augustus
<<To the north of ancient Rome, outside of the walls, there was
the Campus Martius, or the Field of Mars. (It was near here that
Constantine conquered his opponent Maxentius, and converted the
Empire to Christianity.) Since it was illegal to bury dead inside
the city walls (both for religious and sanitary reasons), the Field
of Mars was littered with funerary monuments. The largest (and best
preserved) of these was the Mausoleum of Augustus, which the first
emperor built long before his death. It's a simple and austere
building, consisting of two isolated concentric circles of BRICK.
The outer one is quite large, and now has a wide gate in it. This
outer ring is planted with cedar trees. I walked through the entry
arch and wandered around inside a sort of courtyard which separates
the outer ring from the inner structure, which once held the ashes
of cremated Romans. The center structure was quite a striking place
to explore. In the middle was a dark room, illumined only by a single
hole in the ceiling, which sent down a shaft of heavenly light. Here,
I realized, was where the ashes of Caesar Augustus had been interred
for eternity. His remains, and those of other famous Romans buried
there (including murdered potential emperors Germanicus and
Brittanicus) are no longer there; they were probably
*dumped into the Tiber by Alaric when he sacked Rome* >>
------------------------------------------------------------
The Mausoleum of Hadrian, or Castel St. Angelo
<<An unconventional building sitting on the right bank of the Tiber,
northeast of the Vatican, is the Castel St. Angelo, which once was
the Mausoleum of Hadrian. Originally built to hold the ashes of the
third of the "adoptive emperors," the Mausoleum was an enormous,
round BRICK structure resembling somewhat the Mausoleum of Augustus.
A long ramp wound up the inside of the structure, to the room where
Hadrian's ashes were once kept. The ramp still exists, but the ashes
have long since disappeared. To make the Mausoleum accessible long
after his death, Hadrian built a bridge easily linking it to the
other side of the Tiber. That bridge still stands today, although
it was heavily modified during the Baroque era. (And, it was
destroyed in at least one movie to my knowledge, that being
20 Million Miles to Earth (1957). The destroyer was none other
than the infamous Venusian space monster.
I hate it when that happens...)
The Mausoleum itself underwent a curious conversion. During the
Middle Ages, it was transformed from a decaying, ugly pile of bricks
built over a millenium prior to a fortress, and palace, for the Popes.
In the event of attack by hostile armies, the fortifications on the
Vatican Hill would not have withstood a very prolonged assault.
To make amends for this, a long, raised walkway was built linking
the Vatican to the Mausoleum, now renamed Castel St. Angelo, after
an alleged appearance of the archangel Michael on that spot.
(Because of this, the building now is topped by a dramatic
bronze statue of the angel.) Around the former mausoleum, an
extra wall was built to further fortify the fortress.
The state-of-the-art in defensive mechanisms (catapults, cannons,
and the like) was provided for the fort. Above the old mausoleum,
a series of papal apartments were constructed to provide the Pope
with a comfortable palace-away-from-palace. It was sickeningly
opulent, in my opinion, with revoltingly-detailed frescoes
adorning the walls and ceiling. I also couldn't help but notice
the paintings of suggestively-posed nude statues. And this
was built for a celibate moral leader?>>
-------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Alan Jones
I saw it on UK TV, and thought it inferior to the Indiana Jones films -
similar set-up but less fun, much less goofy.
Alan Jones
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Bianca Steele wrote:
> >> John W. Kennedy wrote:
> >>> roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> >>>> You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
> >>> Actually, it's a load of lies and bullshit disguised as fiction.
> >> Actually, so far it's a lot of misunderstood research...
> >
> > You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>
> I repeat, it is a pack of outright lies disguised as fiction.
>
> Dan Brown is a liar, and he is also a contemptible coward for hiding
> behind "It's only fiction" after the fact, when he had first put it into
> writing, where all his cullies would see it, that his lies were
> legitimate history.
I agree about the ploy, and I agree that many of those who want to
believe the fake statements about history use it as a shortcut to
shutdown criticism.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Mark Cipra
[snip]
> Also, it was not my intent to praise Roger's response "the movie is
> fiction" so much as to wonder about Art's response "you are an idiot."
> But then again. maybe I am getting into the tail end of an argument
Hey, welcome back.
> that I know nothing about, and maybe Art has explained repeatedly to
> Roger that this answer is not sufficient, and has finally lost
> patience.
>
[snip]
--
Mark Cipra
"It is as if Shakespeare said to us: 'Did you think weakness and
innocence have any chance here? Were you beginning to dream that? I
will show you it is not so.'" A.C. Bradley
Play Indiana Jones! Hide the "ark" in my address to reply by email.
Mark Cipra
Wow. I hope that's 100% tax-deductible.
[Just a joke, actually. The DVC movie is an okay way to kill an evening.
You get to watch the divine Audrey Tautou for a couple hours for one thing
(even if they do manage to make her seem uncharismatic for most of the
movie - quite an achievement.)]
Art Neuendorffer
>>>I read a movie review that said it was like
>>>
>>>>"National Treasure" with the fun taken out, and
>>>> so I decided not to bother with it.
>>"The Historian" <Spam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Darn, I had hoped the movie had a scene with someone putting lemon
>>>juice on the back of old documents. I don't know which is more amusing,
>>>the thought that lemon juice would be used that way, or that a bowl of
>>>cut lemons just happened to be in the fridge....
> Tom Reedy wrote:
>
>>So what's the deal with lemon juice?
>>
>>When I was a kid, we would use lemon juice as "invisible ink"
>> that would show up if you passed a flame under the paper, but
>> I never heard of putting it on the back of old documents.
>
The Historian wrote:
>
> In "National Treasure", the Declaration of Independence is stolen
> because a treasure map is encoded on the back. The map leads to the
> lost treasure of the Knights Templar, which the Founding Fathers
> (Freemasons to a man) had hidden from the British. After the
> Declaration is stolen by the good guys to save it from the bad guys,
> it, Nicholas Cage, and his cohorts wind up in the Philadelphia suburbs
> trying to bring out the map by applying lemon juice and heat. They had
> just thought of trying the lemon juice trick, and fortunately they had
> a large bowl of cut lemons handy.
> The movie is goofy good fun, Tom. I suggest renting it,
> and giving your mind the night off.
http://www.cagebypage.com/abouthismovies/goofs/national_treasure.html
<<National Treasure Goofs
Factual errors: The characters coated the back of the Declaration
of Independence with lemon juice and held it over heat to make the
invisible ink visible. However, lemon juice is sometimes used as
an invisible ink itself, and heat makes it reappear. The entire
back of the document would've turned brown, obscuring the map
they were trying to REVEal.
Continuity: SPOILER: When Dr. Abigail Chase stops Ben Gates from using
the lemon on the Declaration of Independence she has no gloves, in the
next shot she is wearing them, but no time has passed between shots. >>
>>TR (who hasn't seen the movie either, but who got roped into
>> seeing it next week for a library benefit at $25 a ticket)
So for you & Brenda and your son & his date
it would cost one Ben Franklin.
<<Factual error: The etching of Independence Hall on the back of
the $100 bill actually shows the clock as reading 4:10, not 2:22.>>
------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
http://www.michaela-august.com/temple_church1.jpg
http://www.lodgephoto.com/galleries/uk-london/templechurch/
http://templiers.info/templiers/templars_in_the_West/images/nef_temple_in_london.jpg
.
http://www.lsu.edu/lsuinireland/Dcp00232.jpeg
http://www.samueljohnson.com/blog/parchives/040616.html
----------------------------------------------------------
>> Stephen Montgomery-Smith <ste...@math.missouri.edu> wrote in
>
>>> But, back to the point, I don't consider the mention of chimney-tops
>>> in "Julius Caesar" as an attempt to mislead its audience.
>
> Mark Steese wrote:
>
>> Neither do I; I was simply pointing out that a writer of fiction can
>> get away with things that a writer of nonfiction can't. Fiction may
>> incorporate historical facts, but only the most benighted reader would
>> assume that a fact recounted in a play or novel was necessarily true.
__ *August 24 : Bartlemas : Chimney sweeps' feast*
-----------------------------------------------------
> Mark Steese wrote:
>
>> To take a minor example from "The Da Vinci Code," Brown has one of
>> his characters say that Jacques de Molay's ashes were dumped into
>> the Tiber. De Molay was burned to death on the Ile de la Cité; his
>> ashes never went anywhere near the Tiber. I don't think Brown was
>> attempting to mislead anyone; I think he just made a silly mistake.
*August 24, 79: Mount Vesuvius (Vesuvio) erupted* The cities
of Pompeii, Herculaneum, and Stabiae were buried in volcanic *ASH*
.
The eruption caused the death of thousands, including the polymathic
author and scientist, Pliny the Elder, who that day was in command of
the Roman fleet at Misenum, which was not far off. His family were
with him, and, among others, his nephew, Pliny the Younger, who has
left an interesting account of what happened on the occasion. He
observed an extraordinary dense cloud ascending in the direction of
Vesuvius, of which he writes:
.
I cannot give you a more exact description of its figure, than by
resembling it to that of a pine tree; for it shot up to a great height
in the form of a tall trunk, which spread out at the top into a sort
of branches. It appeared sometimes bright, and sometimes dark and
spotted, as it was either more or less impregnated with earth and
cinders.
.
'According to Pliny the Younger, a 12-mile high cloud of ash and rock
was thrown into the air, blocking out the sun. By chance, the wind was
blowing from the northwest, so when the volcanic matter began to fall,
it was blown in the direction of Pompeii, Herculaneum, Stabiae, and
other sites to the southeast. The eruption produced total darkness, as
well as electrical discharges from atmospheric disturbances. Ash,
pumice, and rock fell, initially with a low density. This piled up in
streets, on rooftops, and fell in through every open space such as
windows. Some roofs collapsed under its weight and falling debris may
also have caused injury.
.
'This phase of the eruption continued for the rest of the day. People
wandered around in darkness, pushing their way through pumice and
debris, which was piling up. Some may have tried to escape, while
others decided to wait it out. Surely no one had experienced such a
catastrophe before so they did not know what to expect from it.
.
'Shortly after midnight, ground surges of magma and volcanic mud began
as well as pyroclastic surges, avalanches of noxious gases and ash
rushing from the cone of Vesuvius with terrific force at over 100
kilometers an hour. Herculaneum, which was situated at the base of
Vesuvius, was hit with a surge and entombed in volcanic mud. Several
pyroclastic surges roared toward Pompeii but were stopped from doing
too much damage by the northern city wall right behind our city block.
At about 7:30 am, enough pumice stones and debris had piled up that a
pyroclastic surge finally rolled up over the top of the city wall,
shearing off any buildings that were not already buried by volcanic
matter. All people still present in the city died instantly, literally
baked alive by the hot air of the surge. This is why on many of the
plaster casts the limbs are pulled in toward the body, in what is
described as the "pugilistic attitude," as the heat contracted all
their flexor muscles.
.
'Thousands of people died within the city during the eruption. Many
more were probably killed in the surrounding landscape as they tried
to flee, but little archaeological work has been done on Pompeii's
hinterland.'
> ------------------------------------------------------------
.
<<Alaric sought to starve Rome into submission. Famine and
pestilence raged within its walls. Finally peace was purchased
by a large ransom, and Alaric withdrew, but soon returned.
The city was betrayed, and after a lapse of eight centuries
became the second time a prey to the barbarians
.
_____ (August 24, 410)
.
The city was plundered for *FIVE* days, and then Alaric
withdrew to ravage the surrounding country.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/book/aug24.html
------------------------------------------------------------
*August 24 : Bartlemas* (Feast of St Bartholomew)
.
The feast day of St Bartholomew was so called in old England. This
saint was one of the apostles of Jesus. Not much is known about him,
but he might be the same as Nathaniel. His symbol is a sickle, or a
butcher's knife, in allusion to the knife with which he was flayed
alive for his faith.
.
Bartholomew's name comes from bar-Tholomeus, son of Ptolemy,
*an aristocratic name* . His patronage includes Armenia,
*bookbinders, butchers, cobblers, plasterers,
*shoemakers and tanners* .
.
At England's Croyland Abbey, until the time of King Edward IV,
the custom was to give knives to all visitors on this day.
.
'The Roman Martyrology says that Bartholomew preached in India &
Greater Armenia, where he was flayed alive and beheaded by King
Astyages at Derbend on the Caspian Sea. Tradition has the place as
Abanopolis on the west coast of the Caspian Sea and that he also
preached in Mesopotamia, Persia, and Egypt. Pantenus of Alexandria
(2nd century) is said by Eusebius to have found in 'India' a Gospel
of Saint Matthew attributed to Bartholomew and written in Hebrew.
The Gospel of Bartholomew is apocryphal and was condemned in
the decree of Pseudo-Gelasius.' Source
-----------------------------------------------------
The play Bartholomew Fair (1614) by Ben Jonson (1572 - 1637),
depicts the customs associated with the popular English fair
held annually on this day. Jonson's play is peopled with
*balladeers, stall holders, prostitutes and cut-purses*
.
Bartholomew Fair began with a vision. *RaHERE* , the jester of King
Henry I, said he had seen the apostle Bartholomew in a vision and he
had directed him to found a church & hospital in his honour. After
the work was done, *RaHERE* established a fair which was to begin on
his patron's day, and go for three days. It lasted from 1133 to 1855.
.
Sideshows displayed such wonders as The Wild Indian Woman and
Child and The Giant Emew, from Brazil. Many locals opposed
the noisy, debauched fair, for many years.>>
-----------------------------------------------------
Blessing the Mead
.
In medieval times, St Bartholomew was the patron of the *honey crop*
At Gulval, Cornwall, UK, the Blessing of the Mead ceremony still takes
place on St Bartholomew's Day. Mead is an ancient fermented drink made
from herb-infused honey. In ancient Rome this sweet drink was offered
to the gods of love and fertility.
-----------------------------------------------------
Bartholomew's *PIG*
.
It was the custom to eat roast pig at the famous
St Bartholomew's Fair so the term Bartholomew pig
denoted a fat person. (Thou whoreson little tidy Bartholomew
boar-pig - Shakespeare, Henry IV, Pt II, II, iv)
-----------------------------------------------------
Chimney sweeps' feast
.
In the early 19th century a man named Jem White held on this day
each year a feast for London's chimneysweeps, in Smithfield. Cards
were issued a week before to the master-sweeps, inviting only the
younger urchins. James (Jem) White himself was head waiter.
-----------------------------------------------------
Printers' feast day, old England
.
On this day, master printers used to put on a feast, which
was known as a way-goose, for all journeymen. The bosses gave
money to the workmen to spend in the taverns. The windows
of *EVERy chapel, as a print shop was formerly called, were
paned with paper, and were replaced annually on this day
-----------------------------------------------------
St Bart's Bun Race
.
This tradition takes place at St Bartholomew's Hospital, near
Sandwich, on England's Kentish coast. On St Bartholomew's Day
in 1217, the British ships of the Cinque Ports beat off a French
invasion led by a sorcerer and pirate named Eustace the Monk.
The importance of the battle led to the naming of the hospital,
and in modern times the tradition has emerged of children
winning currant buns after running around the chapel once.
-----------------------------------------------------
St Bart's dole
.
Long ago at St Bartholomew's Hospital, it was on the practice
on this day for the almshouse to make an offering called
Saint Bartholomew's dole - bread, cheese and ale - to all
who asked for it.
-----------------------------------------------------
English surnames from Bartholomew
.
Badcock, Badman, Bartle*, Bartlet, Bartlett, Batcock, Bate,
Bates, Bateman, Bateson, Batkin, Batson, Batt, Batten,
Batty, Tolly, Barson, Batterson, Betterson and Bettison.
-----------------------------------------------------
Nativity of Osiris, ancient Egypt
.
In Egyptian mythology, Osiris was son of the earth god Geb and
the sky goddess Nut, and the brother of Isis & Set, who murdered
him. One of the most important of the deities, he was the god of
the underworld and vegetation and a life-death-rebirth deity.
-----------------------------------------------------
Odin's Ordeal (Aug 17 - 25); Discovery of the Runes
.
The Nordic & Germanic god Odin was the chief of the Aesir sky gods.
He was worshipped as God of the Dead through the Viking period and
is symbolised in art by a raven and a particular knot (valknut),
Odin was patron of the fanatical warrior cult, the Berserks.
He was hung from an ash tree, Yggdrasil (the world tree, or tree
of life), whence he gained the knowledge he sought. Today (and
Aug. 25) was the commemoration of the day he discovered the runes.
-----------------------------------------------------
Feast day of Mania, ancient Rome
.
Today was the first day of the Roman festival for the manes, deified
ancestral spirits. In fact, according to some, the European St
Bartholomew's Day festivities grew out of this ancient festival.
.
'The rites of Mania were held in honor of Ceres, Mania, and the Manes.
This was the first day for opening the Mundus Cereris, 'ritual pit of
Ceres.' This pit was vaulted and divided into two parts. The lowest
part was consecrated to the Underworld deities and also to the Manes,
and closed with a stone. This cover, the lapis manalis or 'stone of
the Manes', was removed today, on October fifth, and the eighth of
November so that offerings could be dropped down. When this barrier
was removed, the Manes rose into our world for a time. Mania was
Christianized into St. Bartholomew's Day festivities, which continued
until 19th century in London.' Source
-----------------------------------------------------
Opening of Mundus Cereris, ancient Rome (first day)
.
Mundus Cereris was the womb or labyrinthine passage to the underworld,
the domain of Ceres, the great Mother of vegetation. The structure was
vaulted in the shape of an inverted sky, divided into two parts, and
had a cover. We do know know for certain where the Mundus Cereris was,
or is, but in 1914 Giacomo Boni discovered on the Palatine Hill in
Rome a subterranean structure which he identified with the Mundus.
.
The cover was removed on August 24 (it is believed by some, the
European St Bartholomew's Day festivities grew out of this ancient
festival), October 5 and November 8, and these days were religiosi,
when the way was supposed to be open to the lower world. First-fruits
of the season would be offered to the Manes (ancestral spirits) and
placed in the pit.
.
Because the cover to the Mundus, the Lapis Manalis (Stone of the
Manes), is considered an Ostium Orci (Gate of Hades), the Manes are
freed to roam for the day, so marriage was not permitted today, and
nor were battles nor business considered advisable.
.
One of the numerous spheres over which the goddess Ceres had influence
was liminality, that is, boundaries and transitions between different
stages of social life, a function that she shared with Janus. We note
that this commemoration in its November occurrence almost precisely
coincides with the Celtic Samhain (October 31), at which time the veil
between the living world and that of the dead is said to be its
thinnest, and its Christian corollaries, All Saints' Day and All
Souls' Day, November 1 and 2 respectively.
.
Departed ancestors were remembered at this time.
http://www.mrx.no/Photos-from-Malta/Watch_Tower_at_Sunset_Malta.html
----------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
I agree that the Indiana Jones movies are better. But I still think
that "National Treasure" is worth seeing at least one time - if you have
the chance that is - you don't want to go out of your way to see it.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
>>>>>>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You might wish to know that the Da Vinci Code is *fiction*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might wish to know that you're an idiot.
>>>>>
>>>>>roger_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Do try to keep the difference between fact and fiction clear in your mind - again.
>>>>>
>>>>>Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>>>> It's a fact that you're an idiot.
>
>
>
>
>>[I]t was not my intent to praise Roger's response "the movie is
>>fiction" so much as to wonder about Art's response "you are an idiot."
>
>
> this crazy world. I've never seen him insult anybody. I wonder what
> happened to him. I'm afraid he'll say I'm an idiot, too, yet I'd
> venture to conjecture that something was wrong with his spook when he
> was writing his response and that made him a bit nervous. I hope the
> spook is doing well now.
>
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>
>
>>But I also wonder about Art and how he fits into this group. He has
>>many posts which seem to be huge lists of quotes from literature
>>containing a certain word.
>
>
> was Oxford and that Oxford died on the isle of Malta in 1609-11. But
> although I believe him that he "put[s] a lot of thought into most of
> [his] posts", his serious problem, imo, is that he doesn't put any
> thought at all into what every writer and scholar must put at least
> some thought, namely the style of his writings. He never bothers
> himself with arranging his excerpts and quotations in a readable form.
> He appears to believe that they speak for themselves. But the sad fact
> is that they don't. If instead of publishing his novel Dan Brown had
> published excerpts and quotations from the books he shamelessly robbed
> nobody would have known his name. It comes as no surprise, therefore,
> that Art "seldom if ever receive[s] an intelligent reponse." If you
> give respect to your readers, you can expect to get respect from them.
> If you don't, you can't.
>
> p-b
Thanks for the insight. After seeing Art's response to my message, I
did realise that I had been insensitive and rude. But I am also glad
that my message generated this response from you because now I
understand where Art is coming from. I hope that Art begins to put more
explanation into his posts, but it's his right to leave it out if he
wants to.
Let me also add that while the authorship of the plays of Shakespeare
isn't of burning interest to me, I am sympathetic to the idea that
Shakespeare himself didn't write them, and so while I am not interested
in following the debate myself, I no longer wish to criticise those who do.
Best Stephen
Art Neuendorffer
. As You Like It Act 5, SCENE I. The forest.
.
. Enter TOUCHSTONE and AUDREY
.
. Enter WILLIAM
.
WILLIAM: Good even, Audrey.
.
AUDREY: God ye good even, William.
.
WILLIAM: And good even to you, sir.
.
TOUCHSTONE: Good even, gentle friend. CoVER thy head, coVER
thy head; nay, prithee, be coVERed. How old are you, friend?
.
WILLIAM: *Five and twenty* , sir.
----------------------------------------------------------
___ *Five and twenty* = *FIVE* x *FIVE*
---------------------------------------------------------
. Atbash
..........................
. *FIVE*
. *UREV*
............................................
. *VERU* : SPEAR (Latin)
. *VERU* : TRUE (Maltese)
. *VERU* : TROTH, TRULY (Slovak)
. *VERU* : a DOOR, a GATE (Oscan)
.
[Oscan: An extinct Italic language of ancient southern Italy.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
TOUCHSTONE: A ripe age. Is thy name William?
.
WILLIAM: William, sir.
.
TOUCHSTONE: *A FAIR name* . Wast born i' the forest *HERE* ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER IX. OUR VOYAGE TO *ICE-LAND*
Journey to the Center of the Earth - by Jules *VERnE*
.
On the 2nd of the month [i.e, *St. ELMO's Day* ],
at two in the morning, our precious cargo of luggage
was taken on board the good ship *VALKYRIE*
We followed, and were *VERy* politely introduced by the
captain to a small cabin with two standing bed places,
neither *VERy* well ventilated nor *VERy* comfortable.
But in the cause of science men are expected to *SUFFER* .
.
"Well, and have we *A FAIR wind* ?" cried my uncle,
. in his *most MELLIFLUOUS accents* .
.
"An excellent wind!" replied Captain Bjarne;
"we shall leave the Sound, going *FREE* with all sails set."
.
A few minutes afterwards, the schooner started before the wind, under
all the canvas she could carry, and entered the channel. An hour later,
the capital of Denmark seemed to sink into the waves, and we were at
no great distance from the coast of *Elsinore* . My uncle was
delighted; for myself, moody and dissatisfied, I appeared almost
to expect a glimpse of *the ghost of Hamlet* .
.
"Sublime madman," thought I, "you doubtless would approve our
proceedings. You might perhaps even follow us to the center
of the earth, there to resolve your eternal doubts."
.
But no ghost or anything else appeared upon the ancient walls.
The fact is, the castle is much later than the time of
the heroic prince of Denmark. It is now the residence of
the keeper of the Strait of the Sound, and through that
Sound more than *FIFTEEN* thousand vessels of
all nations pass *EVERy* year.
.
The castle of Kronborg soon disappeared in the murky atmosphere, as well
as *THE TOWER OF HELSINBORG* which raises its head on the Swedish Bank.
And here the schooner began to feel in earnest the breezes of the
Kattegat. The Valkyrie was swift enough, but with all sailing boats
there is the same uncertainty. Her cargo was coal, furniture, pottery,
woolen clothing, and a load of corn. As usual, the crew was small,
*FIVE* Danes doing the whole of the work.
------------------------------------------------------
Laila Roth wrote:
<<In the beginning of Hamlet they stand
on the walls of the castle Kronborg at Elsinore discussing
the surroundings, and I think it's Hamlet himself who describes
the view talking about 'yonder hill' far away. As everyone knows,
Denmark is completely flat, and so is the opposite Swedish coast.
So this geographical description has been ignored as one of many
Shakespeare mistakes. Not at all. Actually, this geographical
testimony proves that the author must himself have been on those
castle walls at Elsinore, because when the weather is clear, and
only then, you see from there far to the north the Swedish hills
of *KULLEN* or "Kullaberg", which is a peninsula jetting out
from the mainland ending up in some intriguingly high hills.
The distance from Elsinore to *KULLEN* must be some 40 kilometers,
and you can only see those hills on a very clear day, for example
on a cold wintry morning. Neither Shakespeare, Oxford or Bacon
were ever in Denmark. Only Derby & Marlowe could have been there.
Rutland was there for sure, but he was too young... >>
........................................................
*GULL* , v. t. [Prob. fr. gull the bird; but cf. OSw.
gylla to deceive, D. *KULLEN* , and E. cullibility.]
To deceive; to cheat; to mislead; to trick; to defraud.
-----------------------------------------------------
Joe Mulligan wrote:
> It's Holland that's flat. Denmark is rolling hills.
> Across from Kronberg Castle is a famous Swedish hill with
> a medieval castle on it, long used as a navigation aid.
-----------------------------------------------------
__ *VAU-kavysk*
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.belarusguide.com/cities/vaukavysk.html
.
<<Vaukavysk or Volkovysk - is the center of the Vaukavysk district,
Hrodna region, 98 km South-East of Hrodna, situated at the Ros' river.
.
. Vaukavysk Timeline
.
. X - XIV cc. Originally three fortified settlements were started here
in X century on Vaukavyia creek, tributory of Ros' river. "Swedish"
hill in Vaukavysk is the remnant of one of these fortifications.
.
. 1252 A.D. Ipatiev Chronicle has the earliest record
. about Vaukavysk and neighboring Slonim. According to it
. Danila Galicki sends his son to Vaukavysk.
.
. 1323. Grand Duke Hedymin of the Grand Duche of Lithuania and Rus'
. gives Navahradak Duchy, Vaukavysk and Mscibohau to his son Karyiat.
.
.
. 1386. Vaukavysk becomes a place of talks which resulted
. in marriage of Grand Duke Yahajla on Polish Queen Iadzviga.
. This effectively uniting lands of the Grand Duche of Lithuania
. and Kingdom of Poland under Yahajla's rule.
.
.
. 1410. Vaukavysk is captured and burned by Teutonic Order of crusaders.
. The same year unified forces of Poland and Lithuania
. crush crusaders in the Grunwald Battle.
.
. 1500. Vaukavysk became a part of Navahradak Vaiavodstva. Later it
receives Magdebourg Rights for self governing and becomes a developed
center. It was paying taxes comparable with Slonim and Navahradak.
.
___ *VAU : FORD* (Portuguese)
___ *VAU* : peacock (Estonian)
___ *VAU* : down (French)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Vaudeville, n. [F., fr. Vau-DE-VIRE, a village in Normandy, where
*OliVIER Basselin composed such songs at the end of the 14th century.]
A kind of song of a lively character, frequently embodying
a satire on some person or event, sung to a familiar air
in couplets with a refrain; a street song; a topical song.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The beauseant or *VAU CENT* (= value hundred) is the long & thin
standard with small penon of the Templars, not just as a sign of war,
but of the almighty presence of Jesus Christ himself in his glory as
a risen God on Easter Sunday morning. Its penon is a symbol
of the holy and famous cornerstone of the temple of Jerusalem.
The whole area of the temple can be domed over by two imaginary
domes 2 : 3 totally measuring 480 cubits - the famous Cloud
of Jahweh. They form together a Pythagorean triangle with sides
of 120, 160 and 200 cubits - the height = 96 cubits. This is the
reason why the vaucent is divided in 2 : 3. On the top of the great
Pythagorean triangle can be placed a cornerstone of equal size
i.e. 3 : 4 : 5 cubits. You can "move" the vaucent 3 cubits to
the front and 2 cubits backwards. If the vaucent is "in function"
and is put 3 cubits to the front it raises at the same time
its height to 100 cubits (100 - 96 = 4 cubits).>>
------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
26 ACTORS LISTED ON THE FIRST FOLIO
---------------------------------------------------------------
26 coats of arms on the "English Tower"
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.montaguemillennium.com/familyresearch/crusaders.htm
<< "... the Knights (these would be the Hospitallers, ed.), having
lost their stronghold ... to Timur the Lame ("Tamurlane",) in 1402,
were establishing a new base at Bodrum, the site of the ancient
Halicarnassus & its famous Mausoleum, stone from which was used in
the construction of the Christian fortress dedicated to St. Peter.
This fortress was to act not simply as a military post, but also
as a refuge for fugitive Christians from the Ottoman Empire. ...
The castle of St. Peter itself provides striking witness to English
participation. Over the gateway to one of its towers, known as the
English Tower, 26 coats of arms were set up in stone, including those
of Henry IV, the Prince of Wales, the dukes of Clarence, Bedford, &
Gloucester (the kings sons), the duke of York, and the families of
Grey, Zouche, DE LA POLE, Neville, Percy, Holland, Beauchamp, BURLEIGH,
STRANGE, Arundel, MONTAGUE, Stafford, DE VERE, Courtenay, FitzHugh,
Cresson, WOOLFE, and FAIRFAX, many of who could boast of both
long and recent crusading traditions." (Tyerman, pp. 313-314)>>
----------------------------------------------------------
Bodrum in ancient times
http://bodrum4u.com/English/history/
<<The history of Bodrum, known as Halicarnassus or Halicarnassos goes
back to the 13th century BC. Excavaties reveal the 5000 year old history
of this town. Many civilisations found their home here. Carians for
excample, Homer tells in his Ilia, that the Carians helped to defend
Troya. Heredotus, known as the father of history, was born
in Bodrum in 484 BC.- and he said that Bodrum had
been founded by the Dorians. The next settlers were Carians and
Lelegians. In the 6'th. century BC., the region came under Persian rule.
Its most brilliant period was around 353. BC. when it was the capital of
the Satrap of Caria (In this century it was famous for its trade,
sailing and boatbuilding.) Artemisia who was a warrior-woman played a
significant role in the protection of the Asian Union and she achieved
fame by adopting a stance against Rhodes as the Admiral of the Carian
fleet in 480 BC.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bodrum4u.com/English/history/
<<The Mausoleum is Bodrums oldest antiquity and was built by Artemisia
II in honour of her husband King Mausolos. It became one of the wonders
of the ancient world, Mausoleum still is the general term for a large
tomb. The entire structure stood at over 50 meters in height. The first
reliefs from the Mausoleum reached the British Museum in London in 1846,
these included frescos and other objects.
Bodrums first remembered literary character was Cevat Sakir, known as
the 'Halicarnassus Fisherman' asked for the return of the Mausoleum
parts to Bodrum in a letter adressed to the Queen of England, saying
that such exquisite works of art were not finding their true place under
the foggy and grey sky of London.
The letter he received in response stated as following:
"Thank you for reminding us of the matter, We have painted
the ceiling where the Mausoleum is located in blue.">>
The most prominent feature of Bodrum is the castle of St. Peter. The
castle's origins date back to the knights of St. John
This group of expatriates began in the 11th century with a church and
hospital in Jerusalem. When the knights arrived they instructed their
builders to remove all usable materials from the tomb of King Mausolos
as the castle construction began in the 1400's.
The knights refered to *the town as Mesy* not knowing that they where in
the ancient Halicarnassus The fortress became known as the Castle of St.
Peter, the Liberator, it served as the sole place of refugee for all
Christians on the West Coast of Asia during the time of the crusades.
For over a century the castle served as a stronghold in the knights
community. Under Turkish care the castle has undergone several uses
including being a military base, a prison and a public bath.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Tom Reedy
news:FcEeg.8115$No1.1193@attbi_s71...
He left out the motivation: The centuries--millennia, really--old Masonic
conspiracy to force mankind into a more evolved consciousness.
TR
Art Neuendorffer
>>
>>> [I]t was not my intent to praise Roger's response "the movie is
>>> fiction" so much as to wonder about Art's response "you are an idiot."
> passerby wrote:
.
>> Arthur is one of the most courteous and well mannered oxfordians
>> and in this crazy world.
Lynne Kositsky is far more courteous & well mannered. (Just ask her.)
.
> passerby wrote:
.
>> I've never seen him insult anybody.
. I insult Lynne Kositsky all the time. (Just ask her.)
.
> passerby wrote:
.
>> I wonder what happened to him.
Send out Rosencrantz & Guildenstern to investigate at once!
.
>> I'm afraid he'll say I'm an idiot, too, yet I'd venture
>> to conjecture that something was wrong with his spook when
>> he was writing his response and that made him a bit nervous.
. I miss spook. :-(
.
>> I hope the spook is doing well now.
We just signed him up on Bush's prescription drug plan.
.
. "Worse poison to men's souls, doing more murders
. in this loathsome world than any mortal drug."
.
>> Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>>
>>> But I also wonder about Art and how he fits into this group.
>>> He has many posts which seem to be huge lists of quotes
>>> from literature containing a certain word.
. It was the spook who told me to LIST!
.
> passerby wrote:
.
>> Arthur truly believes these lists of quotes can prove that Shakespeare
>> was Oxford and that Oxford died on the isle of Malta in 1609-11.
. Arthur truly believes that Shakespeare was Oxford and
. that Oxford died on the isle of Malta in 1609-11.
. (It's an intutive kinda thing...I'm not good at proofs.)
.
> passerby wrote:
.
>> But although I believe him
>> that he "put[s] a lot of thought into most of [his] posts",
>> his serious problem, imo, is that he doesn't put any thought
>> at all into what every writer and scholar must put at least
>> some thought, namely the style of his writings.
. That wasn't writing, that was posting without style!
> passerby wrote:
.
>> He never bothers himself with arranging
>> his excerpts and quotations in a readable form.
.
. Read if thou canst!
> passerby wrote:
.
>> He appears to believe that they speak for themselves.
>> But the sad fact is that they don't.
.
They did speak...you just weren't paying attention at the time:
-----------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/timeline16.html>
<<Robert Greene's "Friar Bacon & Friar Bungay" (1594) was a play
believed to be derived from the prose pamphlet "The Famous History
of Friar Bacon", and probably inspired by Marlowe's play "Faust"
which hit the stage a year earlier (1593). It tells the science
fictional story of how Friar Bacon, and his adept-sidekick Bungay,
constructed by magical means a BRASS head. Bacon summons the Devil,
who says that the head will speak within a month. Bacon is
exhausted from waiting and watching for three weeks, so he leaves
his servant Miles to watch for him. The head finally speaks two words:
"Time is." Miles doesn't think it's worth waking Friar Bacon. The
head speaks again: "Time was." Then it concludes "Time is past,"
falls, and breaks. Bacon awakes too late, and berates Miles. >>
-----------------------------------------------------------
> passerby wrote:
.
>> If instead of publishing his novel Dan Brown had published
>> excerpts and quotations from the books he shamelessly robbed
>> nobody would have known his name.
.
Well, it's a lot easier to remember "Brown" than "Neuendorffer."
.
> passerby wrote:
.
>> It comes as no surprise, therefore, that
>> Art "seldom if ever receive[s] an intelligent reponse." If you
>> give respect to your readers, you can expect to get respect
>> from them. If you don't, you can't.
.
How can I show any respect if I have to 'xplain EVERything?
.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
.
> Thanks for the insight. After seeing Art's response to my message,
> I did realise that I had been insensitive and rude.
.
. Well...you HAD! (So there!)
.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
.
> But I am also glad that
> my message generated this response from you because
> now I understand where Art is coming from.
.
. You do?? Honest? (Tell me.)
.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
.
> I hope that Art begins to put more explanation into his posts,
> but it's his right to leave it out if he wants to.
.
. 'I've given no explanation thus far,' Art replied
. in an offended tone, 'so I can hardly give more.'
.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
.
> Let me also add that while the authorship of the plays of Shakespeare
> isn't of burning interest to me, I am sympathetic to the idea that
> Shakespeare himself didn't write them, and so while I am not interested
>in following the debate myself, I no longer wish to criticise those who do.
.
. Send your sympathy cards & letters to:
.
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
>>Thanks for the insight. After seeing Art's response to my message, I did
>>realise that I had been insensitive and rude. But I am also glad that my
>>message generated this response from you because now I understand where
>>Art is coming from. I hope that Art begins to put more explanation into
>>his posts, but it's his right to leave it out if he wants to.
>
Tom Reedy wrote:
> He left out the motivation: The centuries--millennia, really--old Masonic
> conspiracy to force mankind into a more evolved consciousness.
It's like you've made this speech before, Tom.
Art N.
Mark Steese
[snip]
>>>The movie is goofy good fun, Tom. I suggest renting it, and giving
>>>your mind the night off.
>>>
>>>>TR (who hasn't seen the movie either, but who got roped into seeing
>>>>it next week for a library benefit at $25 a ticket)
>>
>> I saw it on UK TV, and thought it inferior to the Indiana Jones films
>> - similar set-up but less fun, much less goofy.
>>
>> Alan Jones
>
> I agree that the Indiana Jones movies are better. But I still think
> that "National Treasure" is worth seeing at least one time - if you
> have the chance that is - you don't want to go out of your way to see
> it.
The Indiana Jones movies are both better and worse: Steven Spielberg is
an exceptionally talented director, but the movies suffer from their
inability to find a consistent tone regarding the religious artifacts
they center around: the filmmakers try to treat them respectfully while
at the same time deploying them like videogame weapons (or, in the case
of the Holy Grail, like power-ups). The people who made "National
Treasure" had the sense to keep their story secular. Turning the
Declaration of Independence into a treasure map is less objectionable
than turning the Ark of the Covenant into a bug-zapper with Nazis as the
bugs.
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
While I can see where you are coming from, here is another point of
view. I happened to see "Ark of the Covenant" movie just before I
became a Christian. I think that this movie influenced me in a very
positive way, because in the end it was not Indiana Jones's wits and
cleverness that won the day, but the shear power of God that refused to
let the Ark be used as an overglorified "bug zapper." And I think that
the ending of the "Holy Grail" movie has a similar message.
Stephen
Mark Cipra
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith <ste...@math.missouri.edu> wrote in
> news:h5Eeg.753634$084.14410@attbi_s22:
>
> [snip]
>>>> The movie is goofy good fun, Tom. I suggest renting it, and giving
>>>> your mind the night off.
>>>>
>>>>> TR (who hasn't seen the movie either, but who got roped into
>>>>> seeing it next week for a library benefit at $25 a ticket)
>>>
>>> I saw it on UK TV, and thought it inferior to the Indiana Jones
>>> films - similar set-up but less fun, much less goofy.
>>>
>>> Alan Jones
>>
>> I agree that the Indiana Jones movies are better. But I still think
>> that "National Treasure" is worth seeing at least one time - if you
>> have the chance that is - you don't want to go out of your way to see
>> it.
>
> The Indiana Jones movies are both better and worse: Steven Spielberg
> is an exceptionally talented director, but the movies suffer from
> their inability to find a consistent tone regarding the religious
> artifacts they center around: the filmmakers try to treat them
> respectfully while at the same time deploying them like videogame
> weapons (or, in the case of the Holy Grail, like power-ups). The
Meanwhile destroying temples-full of archeological treasures ...
> people who made "National Treasure" had the sense to keep their story
> secular. Turning the Declaration of Independence into a treasure map
> is less objectionable than turning the Ark of the Covenant into a
> bug-zapper with Nazis as the bugs.
--
Mark Steese
>>>I agree that the Indiana Jones movies are better. But I still think
>>>that "National Treasure" is worth seeing at least one time - if you
>>>have the chance that is - you don't want to go out of your way to see
>>>it.
>>
>> The Indiana Jones movies are both better and worse: Steven Spielberg
>> is an exceptionally talented director, but the movies suffer from
>> their inability to find a consistent tone regarding the religious
>> artifacts they center around: the filmmakers try to treat them
>> respectfully while at the same time deploying them like videogame
>> weapons (or, in the case of the Holy Grail, like power-ups). The
>> people who made "National Treasure" had the sense to keep their story
>> secular. Turning the Declaration of Independence into a treasure map
>> is less objectionable than turning the Ark of the Covenant into a
>> bug-zapper with Nazis as the bugs.
>
> While I can see where you are coming from, here is another point of
> view. I happened to see "Ark of the Covenant" movie just before I
> became a Christian. I think that this movie influenced me in a very
> positive way, because in the end it was not Indiana Jones's wits and
> cleverness that won the day, but the shear power of God that refused
> to let the Ark be used as an overglorified "bug zapper."
But that *is* how it was used. The movie God may have stopped the movie
Nazis, but nobody stopped the filmmakers. They took what is arguably the
most sacred object of the Judaic tradition and used it to melt a couple
of Nazis and a collaborator archaeologist, and then the U.S. government
locked it away in a warehouse, presumably forever. The message being
that the power of God is no match for U.S. government bureaucracy.
That's kind of depressing, really.
> And I think that the ending of the "Holy Grail" movie has a similar
> message.
Admittedly, the Holy Grail nonsense was somewhat less offensive, seeing
as how the Holy Grail is just a medieval invention anyway. I still
prefer Monty Python's version.
Elizabeth
>
> He left out the motivation: The centuries--millennia, really--old Masonic
> conspiracy to force mankind into a more evolved consciousness.
Just for the record, the Elizabethans did not
know Masonry.
The English had no access to Egypt until the Ottomans
sued for peace after defeat by the Allies at Vienna.
The English headed for Egypt in the era of Milton and
Newton, both of whom are credited with having something
to do with the founding of Masonry.
All Bacon knew about the Egyptians was from the
Book of Exodus.
The English might have been unhinged
by Egyptian superstition in the Elizabethan era had
the Battle of Lepanto been more decisive but the
Turks held on to Egypt. Having nothing Egyptian to
fascinate, the Elizabethans pondered the Romans.
Art Neuendorffer
>>He left out the motivation: The centuries--millennia, really--old
>>Masonic conspiracy to force mankind into a more evolved consciousness.
>
Elizabeth wrote:
>
> Just for the record,
> the Elizabethans did not know Masonry.
I guess they didn't have any cathedrals then.
Elizabeth wrote:
> The English had no access to Egypt until the Ottomans
> sued for peace after defeat by the Allies at Vienna.
I guess they didn't participate in the Crusades then.
Elizabeth wrote:
> The English headed for Egypt in the era of Milton and
> Newton, both of whom are credited with having something
> to do with the founding of Masonry.
> All Bacon knew about the Egyptians was from the
> Book of Exodus.
He must have been an idiot then.
Elizabeth wrote:
> The English might have been unhinged
> by Egyptian superstition in the Elizabethan era had
> the Battle of Lepanto been more decisive but the
> Turks held on to Egypt. Having nothing Egyptian to
> fascinate, the Elizabethans pondered the Romans.
Romans like Julius Caesar, Pompey and Mark Anthony
who were fascinated by Egypt.
Art Neuendorffer
John W. Kennedy
> The message being
> that the power of God is no match for U.S. government bureaucracy.
One of the core beliefs of Christianity is that the power of God was no
match for Roman government bureaucracy.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
bookburn
"Elizabeth" <elizabe...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1148944824.5...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lots of commentary on Elizabethan masonry in the Hermetic Journal, at:
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/h_fre.html
>
Art Neuendorffer
>>>> think that "National Treasure" is worth seeing at least
>>>> one time - if you have the chance that is - you don't want
>>>> to go out of your way to see it.
>>>
>>>The Indiana Jones movies are both better and worse: Steven Spielberg
>>>is an exceptionally talented director, but the movies suffer from
>>>their inability to find a consistent tone regarding the religious
>>>artifacts they center around:
There is a very consistent obsession with the value & power
of the religious artifacts while generally ignoring what
they actually symbolize for society as a whole.
.
>>> the filmmakers try to treat them respectfully
>>> while at the same time deploying them like videogame
>>>weapons (or, in the case of the Holy Grail, like power-ups). The
>>>people who made "National Treasure" had the sense to keep their story
>>>secular. Turning the Declaration of Independence into a treasure map
>>>is less objectionable than turning the Ark of the Covenant into
>>> a bug-zapper with Nazis as the bugs.
, The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi(; except for Kurt Waldheim.)
.
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith <ste...@math.missouri.edu> wrote
.
>>While I can see where you are coming from, here is another point of
>>view. I happened to see "Ark of the Covenant" movie just before I
>>became a Christian. I think that this movie influenced me in a very
>>positive way, because in the end it was not Indiana Jones's wits and
>>cleverness that won the day, but the shear power of God that refused
>>to let the Ark be used as an overglorified "bug zapper."
, Second only to the shear power of Steven Spielberg.
.
Mark Steese wrote:
.
> But that *is* how it was used. The movie God may have stopped the movie
> Nazis, but nobody stopped the filmmakers. They took what is arguably the
> most sacred object of the Judaic tradition and used it to melt a couple
> of Nazis and a collaborator archaeologist,
. Well, the Bible god used it to melt innocent Canaanites:
.
Numbers 10:35 And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that
Moses said, Rise up, LORD, and let thine enemies be scattered;
and let them that hate thee flee before thee.
.
Mark Steese wrote:
.
> and then the U.S. government
> locked it away in a warehouse, presumably forever. The message being
> that the power of God is no match for U.S. government bureaucracy.
> That's kind of depressing, really.
Didn't the Freemasons in "National Treasure" lock away priceless
archaelogical relics in a warehouse...presumably forever?
.
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith <ste...@math.missouri.edu> wrote
.
>>And I think that the ending of the
>> "Holy Grail" movie has a similar message.
The message is that the Heroic Quest for the "Holy Grail"
is more important than the "Holy Grail" itself(; including
being humble & making leaps of faith while not making
spelling mistakes).
.
Mark Steese wrote:
.
> Admittedly, the Holy Grail nonsense was somewhat less offensive,
> seeing as how the Holy Grail is just a medieval invention anyway.
> I still prefer Monty Python's version.
All: This time it's the assembly of the Knights of Ni...
-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=-
[Arthur and Bedevere have just been teleported by the old man into a
forest filled with eerie music... when they are suddenly set upon by...
well, you'll find out who they are any second now...]
.
All: NI! NI! NI!
.
Arthur: Who are you?
.
Knight 1: We are the Knights who say (pause for effect) NI!
.
Arthur: No! Not the Knights who say Ni!
.
Knight 1: The same...
.
Knight 2: Who are we?
.
Knight 1: We are the keepers of the sacred words...
. NI, PANG, and NEEE-WOMM!
.
Arthur: Those who hear those words seldom live to tell the tale!
.
Knight 1: The Knights who say Ni demand a sacrifice!
.
Arthur: O Knights of Ni, we are but simple travellers who seek the
. enchanter who lives beyond these woods...
.
All: NI! NI! NI!
.
Arthur: Ouch! Oh! Stop!
.
Knight 1: We shall say "Ni" again to you if you do not appease us...
.
Arthur: What is it you want?
.
Knight 1: We want... (pause for more effect) ...a SHRUBBERY!
.
. [A loud ominous-sounding note should sound here...]
.
Arthur: A what?
.
All: NI! NI! NI!
.
Arthur: Please! Please! No more! We will find you a shrubbery!
.
Knight 1: You must return here with a shrubbery, or else you will never
. pass through this wood... alive!
.
Arthur: O Knights of Ni, you are just and fair, and we will return with
. a shrubbery...
Knight 1: One that looks nice...
.
Arthur: Of course!
.
Knight 1: And not too expensive...
.
Arthur: Yes!
.
Knight 1: Now... (pause for still more effect) GO!
.
. [Fanfare plays as they ride off, ...]
-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=-
| SCENE 16: THE KNIGHTS OF NI (Part II) |
-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=-
Characters:
.
Arthur: Yes, we know he's King of the Britons, get on with it!
Bedevere: As in Sir Bedevere.
Knights of Ni: As in #1 (the leader) and
#2 (someone who's not their leader)
Knights: The rest of the Knights of Ni.
Old Woman: The old crow at the start of the scene.
Roger: The Shrubber.
Robin: The Not-Quite-So-Brave-as-Sir Lancelot.
-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=-
[The scene opens with the usual theme music, with Arthur and Bedevere in
a small village at the dwelling of an old woman.]
.
Arthur: Old crow... is there anywhere in this town where we could buy a
. shrubbery? [Another ominous note sounds]
.
Old Woman: Who sent you?
.
Arthur: The Knights who say Ni.
.
Old Woman: No! No! We have no shrubberies here!
.
Arthur: If you do not tell us where we can buy a shrubbery, my friend
. and I will say... (pause) We will say... Ni.
.
Old Woman: AAAGH! Do your worst!
.
Arthur: Very well! If you will not assist us voluntarily...
. (big pause) NI!
.
Old Woman: NO! Never! No shrubbery!
.
Arthur: NI!
.
Bedevere: NOOOO!
.
Arthur: No, no, no, no, it's not that, it's Ni.
.
Bedevere: Noo?
.
Arthur: No, no... Ni. You're not doing it properly...
.
Bedevere: N... Nnn... Ne... Ni... Ni! NI! NI!
.
Arthur: That's it! That's it, you've got it...
.
Arthur and Bedevere: NI! NI! NI!
.
Roger: Are you saying "Ni" to that old woman?
.
Arthur: Umm... Yes.
.
Roger: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni",
. but woe to old ladies... There is a pestilence upon this land,
nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are
under considerable economic stress at this period in history...
.
Bedevere: Did you say shrubberies?
.
Roger: Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is
. Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.
.
Bedevere: NI!
.
Arthur: No! No, no, no, no! [stops Bedevere]
.
[A little while later, back in the forest...]
.
Arthur: O, Knights of Ni, we have brought you your shrubbery.
. May we go now?
.
Knight 1: It is a good shrubbery. I like the laurels particularly...
. But there is one small problem...
.
Arthur: What is that?
.
Knight 1: We are now no longer the Knights who say Ni.
.
Knight 2: NI!
.
Other Knights: Shh...
.
Knight 1: We are now the Knights who say...
.
. "Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG! Zoom-Boing! Z'nourrwringmm!"
.
. Therefore we must give you a test.
.
Arthur: What is this test, O Knights of...
. O Knights who 'till recently said Ni?
.
Knight 1: Firstly, you must find... Another shrubbery!
. [The same note rings out loudly]
Arthur: Not another shrubbery...
.
Knight 1: Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it
here beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get the
two-level effect with a little path running down the middle...
.
Other Knights: Path! Path! Path!
.
Knight 1: Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must cut down
the mightiest tree in the forest... with... A herring!
. [The now-familiar note plays once more]
.
Arthur: We shall do no such thing!
.
Knight 1: Oh, please...
.
Arthur: Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done!
.
. [All Knights scream in agony]
.
Knight 1: Don't say that word!
.
Arthur: What word?
.
Knight 1: I cannot tell, suffice to say, is one of the words the
. Knights of Ni cannot hear!
.
Arthur: How can we not say the word if you don't tell us what it is?
.
. [Again the Knights scream in agony]
.
Knight 1: AAAA! He said it again! AAAAAH! I was getting very far in
life life not saying it! [Still more screams]
.
[At this point, Sir Robin comes in with his minstrels still singing...]
.
Bedevere: My liege! It's Robin!
.
Minstrels: ...and taking it in and packing it up,
. And sneaking away and buggering off,
. And chickening out and pissing around...
.
Arthur: Sir Robin!
.
Robin: My liege! It's good to see you!
.
Knights: AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!
.
Arthur: I'm sure you've not given up your quest for the Holy Grail...
.
Minstrels: He is sneaking away and buggering off...
.
Robin: Shut up!
. [To Arthur] No, no, no! Far from it!
.
Knight 1: AAAAGH! You said the word again!
.
Robin: I was looking for it...
.
Knights: AAAARGGHHH!
.
Robin: ...uh, here, here in this forest...
.
Arthur: No, it is far from here...
.
Knights: OOOOOH! AARRGH! Stop saying the word!
.
Arthur: Oh, stop it!
.
Knights: AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! You said it again! AAAH! I said
. it! I said it! OOOOH! I said it again! AAAH!
. That's three "it"s! AAAGH!
.
[Arthur, Lancelot, and Robin, ride off, leaving the Knights of Ni in
total chaos...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arthur Neuendorffer rides off leaving h.l.a.s. in total chaos...
Elizabeth
> > Tom Reedy wrote:
>
> >>He left out the motivation: The centuries--millennia, really--old
> >>Masonic conspiracy to force mankind into a more evolved consciousness.
> >
> Elizabeth wrote:
> >
> > Just for the record,
> > the Elizabethans did not know Masonry.
>
> I guess they didn't have any cathedrals then.
They had masonry. They did not have Masonry.
>
> Elizabeth wrote:
>
> > The English had no access to Egypt until the Ottomans
> > sued for peace after defeat by the Allies at Vienna.
>
> I guess they didn't participate in the Crusades then.
>
> Elizabeth wrote:
>
> > The English headed for Egypt in the era of Milton and
> > Newton, both of whom are credited with having something
> > to do with the founding of Masonry.
>
> > All Bacon knew about the Egyptians was from the
> > Book of Exodus.
>
> He must have been an idiot then.
Elizabeth wrote:
>
> > The English might have been unhinged
> > by Egyptian superstition in the Elizabethan era had
> > the Battle of Lepanto been more decisive but the
> > Turks held on to Egypt. Having nothing Egyptian to
> > fascinate, the Elizabethans pondered the Romans.
>
> Romans like Julius Caesar, Pompey and Mark Anthony
> who were fascinated by Egypt.
You're expecting to find esoteric texts. That
would be the Egyptian papyri, not Greco-Roman texts.
The Roman texts on Egypt aren't that exciting.
The Romans weren't that exciting. This from Strabo
looks a lot like Pliny not to speak of the Sylva Sylvarum.
Like Pliny, Bacon had huge curiosity but he was meant
to be a natural historian. He wasn't fixated on
the exoteric, in fact he was one of the first Europeans
to be systematically skeptical. He overturns many
superstitions in this scientific treatises. I think
you're wasting your high IQ on Looney.
"To what has been said concerning Egypt, we must add these peculiar
products; for instance, the Egyptian bean, as it is called, from which
is obtained the ciborium, and the papyrus, for it is found here and in
India only; the persea [peach] grows here only, and in Ethiopia; it is
a lofty tree, and its fruit is large and sweet; the sycamine, which
produces the fruit called the sycomorus, or fig-mulberry, for it
resembles a fig, but its flavor is not esteemed. The corsium also (the
root of the Egyptian lotus) grows there, a condiment like pepper, but a
little larger. There are in the Nile fish in great quantity and of
different kinds, having a peculiar and indigenous character. The best
known are the oxyrhynchos [the sturgeon], and the lepidotus, the latus,
the alabes, the coracinus, the choerus, the phagrorius, called also the
phagrus. Besides these are the silurus, the citharus, the thrissa [the
shad], the cestreus [the mullet], the lychnus, the physa, the bous, and
large shellfish which emit a sound like that of wailing.
Bianca Steele
> The message is that the Heroic Quest for the "Holy Grail"
> is more important than the "Holy Grail" itself(; including
> being humble & making leaps of faith while not making
> spelling mistakes).
The quest for the Grail is often considered potentially suicidal. In
Tennyson, it is the ruin of the nation.
--
Bianca Steele
Bianca Steele
> Didn't the Freemasons in "National Treasure" lock away priceless
> archaelogical relics in a warehouse...presumably forever?
I thought that was Marx's "lumber room of history," given an ironic
turn.
Mark Steese
news:1148957803.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
I don't know what Groucho had to do with it, but as it happens, at the end
of "National Treasure" the treasures are distributed to museums around the
world, which is a bit more satisfying than the banal and overused "We found
it but lost it again" ending.
--
Mark Steese
=======================
The disturbed eyes rise,
furtive, foiled, dissatisfied
from meditation on the true
and insignificant.
Mark Steese
@fe10.lga:
> Mark Steese wrote:
>> The message being
>> that the power of God is no match for U.S. government bureaucracy.
>
> One of the core beliefs of Christianity is that the power of God was no
> match for Roman government bureaucracy.
And here I had been under the impression that Jesus had the power to save
Himself but went to His death intentionally, sacrificing Himself to redeem
mankind. Now you're saying He was just overmatched by the Romans? That *is*
depressing.
Art Neuendorffer
>
>>The message is that the Heroic Quest for the "Holy Grail"
>>is more important than the "Holy Grail" itself(; including
>>being humble & making leaps of faith while not making
>>spelling mistakes).
Bianca Steele wrote:
> The quest for the Grail is often considered potentially suicidal.
> In Tennyson, it is the ruin of the nation.
Not if one has the proper attitude:
..............................................
'So when I told him all thyself hast heard,
Ambrosius, and my fresh but fixt resolve
To pass away into the quiet life,
He answered not, but, sharply turning, asked
Of Gawain, "Gawain, was this Quest for thee?"
'"Nay, lord," said Gawain, "not for such as I.
Therefore I communed with a saintly man,
Who made me sure the Quest was not for me;
For I was much awearied of the Quest:
But found a silk pavilion in a field,
And merry maidens in it; and then this gale
Tore my pavilion from the tenting-pin,
And blew my merry maidens all about
With all discomfort; yea, and but for this,
My twelvemonth and a day were pleasant to me."
..............................................
Art Neuendorffer
Mark Cipra
> "Bianca Steele" <bianca...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1148957803.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Art Neuendorffer wrote:
>>> Didn't the Freemasons in "National Treasure" lock away priceless
>>> archaelogical relics in a warehouse...presumably forever?
>>
>> I thought that was Marx's "lumber room of history," given an ironic
>> turn.
>
> I don't know what Groucho had to do with it, but as it happens, at
> the end of "National Treasure" the treasures are distributed to
> museums around the world, which is a bit more satisfying than the
> banal and overused "We found it but lost it again" ending.
(I think he meant the items had been tucked away by the ... who was it?
Masons? ... but that Nic Cage et al found 'em anyway.)
Which sort of makes "National Treasure" an unofficial sequal: "Indiana
Jones (The Next Generation): The Search for the National Archives".