Marjorie Garber free online Shakespeare course

[Tom Reedy]

hakespeare After All: The Later Plays—Harvard course videos

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative/shakespeare-after-all-later-plays

[Arthur Neuendorffer]

Tom Reedy <tom.re...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Shakespeare After All: The Later Plays—Harvard course videos
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bt9rbgo

Elizabeth <elizabethpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prof. Marjorie Garber of Harvard had a couple of pictures
> that looked very much like Oxford (and nothing like the Droeshout)
> on her Shakespeare Sonnets page as did Helen Vendler. I haven't
> looked for Vendler's site but Garber's has since been replaced
> with the plain Harvard webpage. No images.
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://prelectur.stanford.edu/lecturers/garber/shakespeare.html

"A zealous Shakespearean cryptographer, who proves
by numerological analysis that the real author could be
*either Bacon* or Daniel Defoe, is George M. Battey"

- Marjorie Garber's _Coming of Age in Shakespeare_
------------------------------------------------------------
Finnegans Wake p.332 (8th 100 letter thunder word)
http://everything2.com/title/thunderword
.........................................
Snip snap snoody. Noo err historyend goody. Of a lil trip trap and a
big treeskooner for he put off the ketyl and they made *three* (for
fie!) and if hec dont love alpy then lad you annoy me. For hanigen
with hunigen still haunt ahunt to finnd their hinnigen where -

Pappappapparrassannuaragheallach[n]atullaghm[o]nganmac
ma[c]macwhackf[a]lltherdeb[b]lenonthedubblandaddydoodled
..................................................
http://www.osogd.org/GematriaCalc.html

"Bacon" gematria cipher: #33
"Francis Bacon" gematria cipher: #100

{Cipher starts on the #33rd letter of #100 letters}
.....................................
_____ <= 10 x 10 =>

. P a p p a p p a p p
. a r r a s s a n n u
. a r a g h e a l l a
. c h [N] a t u l l a g
. h m [O] n g a n m a c
. m a [C] m a c w h a c
. k f [A] l l t h e r d
. e b [B] l e n o n t h
. e d u b b l a n d a
. d d y d o o d l e d
..
Prob. of [BACON] in one of FW's 10 perfect 10 x 10 arrays: ~ 1 in 855
..................................................................
and anruly person creeked a JEST. Gestapose to parry off cheekars
or frankfurters on the odor. Fine again, Cuoholson! Peace, O wiley!
-------------------------------------------------------------
. JOYCE: Ulysses, Scylla & Charybdis
.
STEPHEN ( *Stringendo* .) He has hidden his own name, a fair name,
William, in the plays, a super here, a clown there, as a painter
of old Italy set his face in a dark corner of his canvas.
.
He has *REVEalED* it in the sonnets
where there is *wil{L IN OVER}pl{US}* ({VERO NIL} VERI{US}).
.
Like John O'Gaunt his name is dear to him, as dear as the
coat of arms he toadied for, *on a BEND sable a spear*
or steeled argent, honorificabilitudinitatibus, dearer
than his glory of greatest shakescene in the country.
What's in a name?
--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Isaac Hull PLATT in the Conservator (1897):
.
_ *H[ONO](r)i(F)i[CAB]ilitudinitatibus* - L.L.L.
_ *Hi ludi, tuiti sibi, (Fr.) [BACONO] nati*
.
*These plays entrusted to themselves proceeded [from Fr. Bacon]*
.........................................................
Northumberland Manuscript (1846) :
.
_ *H[ONO](r)i(F)i[CAB]ilitudino*
_ *Initio hi ludi (Fr.) [BACONO]*
----------------------------------------------------------
The earliest (1599) use listed in the OED of
Honorificabilitudinitatibus is by *THOMAS NASHE* :
.
"Physitions *DEAFEN OUR EARES* with the
Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their *HEAUENLY*
Panachaea, their sOUERaign Guiacum."
...................................................
____ *DEAF-IN MY EAR, I SEE*

http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/anagrams/text.html
.
____ *EDOUARUS V(e)IERUS*
_____ per anagramma
____ *AURE SURDUS VI(d)EO*
--------------------------------------------
___ Chapter 9 James Joyce's Ulysses (1922)
http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/ulysses/scylla.html
.................................................
When Rutlandbaconsouthamptonshakespeare or another poet of the same
name in the comedy of errors wrote Hamlet he was not the father of
his own son merely but, being no more a son, he was and felt himself
the father of all his race, the father of his own grandfather, the
father of his unborn grandson who, by the same token, nEVER was
born for nature, as Mr Magee understands her, *abhors PERFECTION*
...........................................................
And sir William Davenant of *Oxford's mother* with her cup of
ca{n|A)ry f<O|R> a[N]y {c|O)ck[C|a|N|A]ry. <B>uck Mulligan,
.................................................
. <O> (r) a
. [N] y {c}
. (O) c k
. [C] {a}(N)
. [A] r y
. <B> u c k Mulligan,

[BACONO]: *Italian* for {BACON}: Skip -3
...........................................
. {n} (A) r y f
. <O> (r) a [N] y
. {c} (O) c k [C]
. {a} (N)[A] r y
. <B> u c k Mulligan

{BACON} Skip -5

Prob. <B>uck preceeded by 2[ACON]s ~ 1 in 1,560,000
......................................................
(NOrA) (B)arna(C)le (March 1884 – April 10, 1951)
was the muse and wife of author James Joyce.

(NOrA) met Joyce on June 10, 1904, in Dublin but
it was not until June 16, 1904 that they had their
first romantic liaison. This date would later be
chosen as the setting for Joyce's novel Ulysses,
and has come to be known as Bloomsday.
.....................................................
http://tinyurl.com/7aonlo5

http://www.argosybooks.com/shop/argosy/171747.html

Sylva Sylvarum, Sive Historia naturalis...
a Francisco [BACONO]. Latio transscripta a Iabobo Grutero.

Sylva sylvarum, or, a natural history in ten centuries:
.......................................................
Saggi morali del signore FRancesco [BACONO], cavaglire inglese.
Con vn altro trattato Della sapienza de gli antichi.

1617/1618 Tobie Matthew *Italian* translation of Bacon's

_The essays, or, Counsels, civil and moral of Sir FRANCis BACON
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/ulysses/scylla.html
.......................................................
The "Shakespeare" Chap. 9 of James Joyce's Ulysses (1922)
............................................
The plays of Shakespeare's later years which
Renan admired so much breathe another spirit.
The spirit of reconciliation,

the quaker li[B]rarian bre[A]thed.

-- There [C]an be no rec[O]nciliatio[N],

Stephen sa[I]d, if there has not been a sundering.
..................................
____ <= 10 x 19 =>
.
. T h e p l a y s o {F}
. S h a k e s p e a {R}
. e' s l a t e r y e {A}
. r s w h i c h R e {N}
. a n a d m i r e d s
. o m u c h b r e a t
. h e a n o t h e r s
. p i r i t. T h e s p
. i r i t o f r e c o
. n c i l i a t i o n,
. t h e q u a k e r l
. i [B] r a r i a n b r
. e [A] t h e d T h e r
.{E}[C] a n b e n o r e
.{C}[O] n c i l i a t i
.{O}[N],S t e p h e n s
. a [I] d, i f t h e r e
. h a s n o t b e e n
. a s u n d e r i n g.

-- If you want to know what are the events which cast their
SHADOW over the hell of time of King Lear, Othello, Hamlet,
Troilus and Cressida, look to see when and how the SHADOW lifts.
What softens the heart of a man, Shipwrecked in storms dire,
Tried, like another Ulysses, Pericles, prince of Tyre?
..................................
[FRAN]cis [BACONI] de Verulamio.
Historia regni Henrici septimi Angliae regis.

http://tinyurl.com/7xfydf3
--------------------------------------------------
. James Joyce's _Ulysses_
..................................................
He walked back along Dorset street, reading gravely. Agendath Netaim:
planter's company. To purchase vast sandy tracts from Turkish
government and plant with eucalyptus trees. Excellent for shade, fuel
and construction. Orangegroves and immense melonfields north of Jaffa.
You pay eight marks and they plant a dunam of land for you with
olives, oranges, almonds or citrons. Olives cheaper: oranges need
artificial irrigation. Every year you get a sending of the crop.
Your name entered for life as owner in the book of the union.
Can pay ten down and the balance in yearly instalments.
Bleibtreustrasse 34, Berlin, W. 15.
..................................................
-- Well, in that case, he said, I don't see why you should expect
payment for it since you don't believe it yourself. Dowden believes
there is some mystery in Hamlet but will say no more. Herr Bleibtreu,
the man Piper met in Berlin, who is working up that Rutland theory,
believes that the secret is hidden in the Stratford monument.
He is going to visit the present duke, Piper says, and prove
to him that his ancestor wrote the plays. It will come
as a surprise to his grace. But he believes his theory.
---------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

[book...@yahoo.com]

About '97 was a spate of reports of live classroom videos from several
colleges, featuring undergraduate classes in a way that looked
promising for remote education. Don't know if this was part of
university without walls" programs, a way for absent students to catch
up on lectures, or something preliminary to publishing courses.

I think there are some college curriculums that emphasize seminars and
ability to take examinations demonstrating knowledge, so class
attendance is not that necessary. Phoenix and St. Johns come to mind.
In Britain, where passing finals is essential, they are probably too
proprietary to allow such broadcasts, I suppose. Also, I like the
idea that public schools might have video cameras in classrooms, with
open access for locals.

This latest "free online Shakespeare course" does seem to have some
liberal idiosyncrasies that are probably going to serve odd purposes,
IMO. But imagine archiving some of the great college lectures for
retrieval. Like to see a video of Nabokov lecturing on something.
College lectures might be ranked in several ways, allowing some
special regard for some over the years.

BTW, recording a classroom or lecture hall should probably center on
the speaker from the side at some angle, not so much the class?
bookburn

[Tom Reedy]

On May 9, 9:16 pm, bookb...@yahoo.com wrote:<snip>

> In Britain, where passing finals is essential, they are probably too
> proprietary to allow such broadcasts, I suppose.

http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/not-shakespeare-elizabethan-and-jacobean-popular-theatre

[marco]

thanks

I was thinking I wouldn't like these,
but I listened to the introduction,
and I've changed my opionion.

marc

[Arthur Neuendorffer]

marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've changed my opionion.

I would hope so!

Art N.

[marco]

listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he were a real person

what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real people?

God comes to mind

marc

[John W Kennedy]

On 2013-05-10 18:14:40 +0000, marco said:

> listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
> it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
> were a real person

Although modern scholars have expressed some doubt about the story, he
was accepted as a real person for over two thousand years, and
Shakespeare certainly thought he was real; he and his story appeared in
all the standard works of Roman history, ancient and (in Shakespeare's
day) modern.

> what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real people?
>
> God comes to mind

Sorry. I didn't know you were only twelve.

--
John W Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton

[book...@yahoo.com]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 14:43:02 -0400, John W Kennedy
<jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2013-05-10 18:14:40 +0000, marco said:
>
>> listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
>> it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
>> were a real person
>
>Although modern scholars have expressed some doubt about the story, he
>was accepted as a real person for over two thousand years, and
>Shakespeare certainly thought he was real; he and his story appeared in
>all the standard works of Roman history, ancient and (in Shakespeare's
>day) modern.
>
>> what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real people?
>>
>> God comes to mind
>
>Sorry. I didn't know you were only twelve.

I can think of a fictional person that we empathize with to a
considerable extent: Ophelia. That's because of her dilemma over her
father and Hamlet, her suicide after Hamlet Kills him, how this
affects others, and the sorry state of being buried as a suicide.

Shakespeare endows Ophelia with some choice garden imagery, as
"Throughout the play Hamlet, Ophelia is associated with floral
imagery. Her father, Polonius, presents her with a violet, she sings
songs about flowers when she turns mad, she drowns amid garlands of
flowers, and finally, at her burial, Queen Gertrude tosses flowers
into her grave. Flowers symbolize her fragile beauty, blossoming
sexuality, and a condemned innocence."

Yet the mystery of Ophelia's suicide is still debated strongly at many
Internet sites, especially noticing what may show her sexual
compromise. See her post-Polonius songs and the lines in IV,v:

QUEEN GERTRUDE There is a willow grows aslant a brook,
That shows his hoar leaves in the glassy stream;
There with fantastic garlands did she come
Of crow-flowers, nettles, daisies, and long purples
That liberal shepherds give a grosser name,
But our cold maids do dead men's fingers call them:
There, on the pendent boughs her coronet weeds
Clambering to hang, an envious sliver broke;
When down her weedy trophies and herself
Fell in the weeping brook. Her clothes spread wide;
And, mermaid-like, awhile they bore her up:
Which time she chanted snatches of old tunes;
As one incapable of her own distress,
Or like a creature native and indued
Unto that element: but long it could not be
Till that her garments, heavy with their drink,
Pull'd the poor wretch from her melodious lay
To muddy death.

The famous painting, "Ophelia", by Millals and series of poems by
German authors of "the drowning girl" school demonstrate this on-going
vogue about Ophelia that seems to re-create her as a mythic heroine.
While it's common to discuss Shakespeare's characters as actors would,
in the present tense, as if they are real, Ophelia seems to arouse
emotional responses in us, IMO. Some have even suggested that Hamlet
is her play? bookburn

[neonprose @ gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:28:59 PM UTC-7, Tom Reedy wrote:
> hakespeare After All: The Later Plays—Harvard course videos
>
>
>
> http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative/shakespeare-after-all-later-plays
>
>

> For now Four Centuries Strats have been massaging the corpse.
>
> Shakespeare is DEAD (answer to Twain) and there's no way the
>
> Strats can wake this Broker up.
>
> All I want is the title to a single play from the Strats, and no
>
> delving into Bacon's and Jonson's First Folio, those plays are
>
> sacred.

[marco]

i wonder if Elizabeth is a real person

evidently, i was wrong about Coriolanus

maarc

[neonprose @ gmail.com]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 8:27:53 PM UTC-7, marco wrote:
> i wonder if Elizabeth is a real person
>

> Elizabeth writes: I don't know, let me check.
>
>Marc writes, evidently, i was wrong about Coriolanus
>
> Well, don't worry about it, Kennedy and Reedy are often
>
> wrong, nobody's perfect. Elizabeth writes:
>
> I think I have an idea about how to actually resolve
>
> the question of whether it was Shakespeare or
>
> Bacon who wrote the Shakespeare plays and which
>
> writer is in a position to claim Shakespeare
>
> authorship. It has to do with the fact that Shappere of
>
> Stratford had no possession of ITEMS, no books, no
>
> notebooks, no playscripts, no physical objects that
>
> would identify him as the author.
>
> Bacon, on the other hand, was the recipient, four
>
> hundred years after the fact, of the attentions of
>
> a very wealthy Englishman, Sir Edward Durning-
>
> Lawrence, who inherited an enormous bequest
>
> from, iirc, his rich uncle, but instead of setting
>
> up some "birthplace" Durning-Lawrence set out
>
> to collect Bacon's "things," that is Bacon's personal
>
> items, like books, Folios, paintings, with an
>
> emphasis on props used in the Shakespeare plays,
>
> meaning the actual plays staged four hundred
>
> years ago.
>
> Durning-Lawrence is no longer with us but thanks
>
> to his intense interest in Bacon, BUNEL holds the
>
> Durning-Lawrence collection of Bacon's own
>
> props. I think BUNEL is connected to Cambridge
>
> University which is appropriate since Bacon
>
> attended Cambridge. I don't know if my idea
>
> is going to work but at least it gives us a
>
> fresh start.

[laraine]

Just saw a great quote:

"If there were not God, there would be no atheists"
G.K. Chesterton, Where All Roads Lead

But your post got me to search for images
of God, and I saw this from the early 16th c:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cima_da_Conegliano,_God_the_Father.jpg

Head over some clouds --wonder if Marlowe
saw paintings like that.

C.

[marco]

i guess i was wrong about God also

marc

[Sneaky O. Possum]

laraine <lara...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0b08cb44-ceea-4864...@v14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

> On May 10, 1:14 pm, marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
>> it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
>> were a real person
>>
>> what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real
>> people?
>>
>> God comes to mind
>>
>> marc
>
> Just saw a great quote:
>
> "If there were not God, there would be no atheists"
> G.K. Chesterton, Where All Roads Lead

The quotation is greatly improved by restoring some context.

...The truth is that the atmosphere of excitement, by which the
atheist lived, was an atmosphere of thrilled and shuddering theism,
and not of atheism at all; it was an atmosphere of defiance and not
of denial...After this first fuss about the merely aesthetic effect
of blasphemy, the whole thing vanishes into its own void. If there
were not God, there would be no atheists. It is easy to say this of
the nineteenth century negation, for that sort of atheism is already
one of the dead heresies. But what is not always noticed is that all
the more modern forms of theism have the same blank. Theism is as
negative as atheism.

I like that - "Theism is as negative as atheism."

> But your post got me to search for images
> of God, and I saw this from the early 16th c:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cima_da_Conegliano,_God_the_Father.jp
> g
>
> Head over some clouds --wonder if Marlowe saw paintings like that.

Probably not: if you wanted to see paintings like that in the late 16th
century, you had to go to Italy, and there's no evidence that Marlowe did
so.
--
S.O.P.

[neonprose @ gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:21:13 PM UTC-7, Arthur Neuendorffer wrote:
> Tom Reedy <tom.re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > Shakespeare After All: The Later Plays—Harvard course videos
>
> >
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/bt9rbgo
>
>
>
> Elizabeth <elizabethpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Prof. Marjorie Garber of Harvard had a couple of pictures
>
> > that looked very much like Oxford (and nothing like the Droeshout)
>
> > on her Shakespeare Sonnets page as did Helen Vendler. I haven't
>
> > looked for Vendler's site but Garber's has since been replaced
>
> > with the plain Harvard webpage. No images.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://prelectur.stanford.edu/lecturers/garber/shakespeare.html
>
>
>
> "A zealous Shakespearean cryptographer, who proves
>
> by numerological analysis that the real author could be
>
> *either Bacon* or Daniel Defoe, is George M. Battey"
>

> Marjorie Garber's _Coming of Age in Shakespeare_
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Finnegans Wake p.332 (8th 100 letter thunder word)
>
> http://everything2.com/title/thunderword
>

> Everytime I read the title Finnegan's Wake, I have
>
> a fit of Christian guilt for reading it under the
>
> covers with a flashlight.

>
> .........................................
>
> Snip snap snoody. Noo err historyend goody. Of a lil trip trap and a
>
> big treeskooner for he put off the ketyl and they made *three* (for
>
> fie!) and if hec dont love alpy then lad you annoy me. For hanigen
>
> with hunigen still haunt ahunt to finnd their hinnigen where -
>

> Hmmm, that seems oddly familiar.
>
> So Art. not to change the subject but the piece on
>
> your aunt that you submitted to the Oregonian was
>
> wonderfully written, I didn't know you could write
>
> such fine prose. I read it more than once.
>
> Hmmmmmm.

> Oxford should have a share of the Northumberland MS
>
> because the names of his royal antecedents are also
>
> scribbled all over it.

> Great quote, great post!

> Fine post, Art, it brings back memories of books my
> mother found under the covers and tossed into the big
> old furnace in the basement. It's not easy descending
> from England Puritans.

[marco]

>Eliz wrote:
> Everytime I read the title Finnegan's Wake, I have
> a fit of Christian guilt for reading it under the
> covers with a flashlight.

Hmmmmm

marc

[laraine]

On May 11, 4:10 pm, marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i guess i was wrong about God also
>
> marc

I suspect it's not easy to define
God in a sensible way.

Fictional character(?) - King Arthur...

C.

[laraine]

On May 11, 6:02 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:0b08cb44-ceea-4864-

> > But your post got me to search for images
> > of God, and I saw this from the early 16th c:
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cima_da_Conegliano,_God_the_Father.jp
> > g
>
> > Head over some clouds --wonder if Marlowe saw paintings like that.
>
> Probably not: if you wanted to see paintings like that in the late 16th
> century, you had to go to Italy, and there's no evidence that Marlowe did
> so.
> --
> S.O.P.

I don't know --but I'll take a guess that there would have likely been
some medieval and Renaissance art in England. Maybe some rich people
could have transported it about, even from other countries.

Maybe Marlowe got ideas of physical representations of the heavens
from books or woodcuts also.

C.

[laraine]

On May 11, 6:02 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:0b08cb44-ceea-4864...@v14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 10, 1:14 pm, marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
> >> it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
> >> were a real person
>
> >> what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real
> >> people?
>
> >> God comes to mind
>
> >> marc
>
> > Just saw a great quote:
>
> > "If there were not God, there would be no atheists"
> > G.K. Chesterton, Where All Roads Lead
>
> The quotation is greatly improved by restoring some context.
>
>         ...The truth is that the atmosphere of excitement, by which the
>     atheist lived, was an atmosphere of thrilled and shuddering theism,
>     and not of atheism at all; it was an atmosphere of defiance and not
>     of denial...After this first fuss about the merely aesthetic effect
>     of blasphemy, the whole thing vanishes into its own void. If there
>     were not God, there would be no atheists. It is easy to say this of
>     the nineteenth century negation, for that sort of atheism is already
>     one of the dead heresies. But what is not always noticed is that all
>     the more modern forms of theism have the same blank. Theism is as
>     negative as atheism.
>
> I like that - "Theism is as negative as atheism."
>

I needed a little more to understand
it better--it's sort of funny if you
don't take it too seriously:

"We have had during the last few centuries a series of extremely
simple religions; each indeed trying to be more simple than the last.
And the manifest mark of all these simplifications was, not only that
they were finally sterile, but that they were rapidly stale. A man had
said the last word about them when he had said the first. Atheism is,
I suppose, the supreme example of a simple faith. The man says there
is no God; if he really says it in his heart, he is a certain sort of
man so designated in Scripture. But anyhow, when he has said it, he
has said it, and there seems no more to be said. The conversation
seems likely to languish. The truth is that the atmosphere of
excitement by which the atheist lived was an atmosphere of thrilled

and shuddering theism, and not of atheism at all; it was an atmosphere

of defiance and not of denial. Irreverence is a very servile parasite
of reverence, and has starved with its starving lord. After this first

fuss about the merely aesthetic effect of blasphemy, the whole thing

vanishes into its own void. If there were no God, there would be no

atheists.

It is easy to say this of the nineteenth century negation, for that
sort of atheism is already one of the dead heresies. But what is not

always noticed is that all the modern forms of theism have the same
blank. Theism is as negative as atheism. To say with the optimists
that God is good and therefore everything is good, or with the
universalists that God is love and therefore everything is love, or
with the Christian Scientists that God is spirit and therefore
everything is spirit, or for that matter with the pessimists that God
is cruel and therefore everything is a beastly shame, to say any of
these things is to make a remark to which it is difficult to make any
reply, except 'Oh', or possibly, in a rather feeble fashion, 'Well,
well'. The statement is certainly in one sense very complete; possibly
a little too complete, and we find ourselves wishing it were a little
more complex. And that is exactly the point. It is not complex enough
to be a living organism. It has no vitality because it has no variety
of function."

[Sneaky O. Possum]

laraine <lara...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:47ded187-8581-4ea7...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

> On May 11, 6:02 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:0b08cb44-ceea-4864-
>
>> > But your post got me to search for images
>> > of God, and I saw this from the early 16th c:
>>
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cima_da_Conegliano,_God_the_Father.
>> >jpg
>>
>> > Head over some clouds --wonder if Marlowe saw paintings like that.
>>
>> Probably not: if you wanted to see paintings like that in the late
>> 16th century, you had to go to Italy, and there's no evidence that
>> Marlowe did so.
>

> I don't know --but I'll take a guess that there would have likely been
> some medieval and Renaissance art in England. Maybe some rich people
> could have transported it about, even from other countries.

Bear in mind that Roman Catholic art had somewhat fallen out of favour
in the England of Marlowe's day. Moreover, England was a late bloomer in
the graphic arts as well as literature: the first great English painter
was Nicholas Hilliard, who began his career c. 1560, and he was a bit of
a one-off - note that the Stuarts followed in Henry VIII's footsteps by
importing their portraitist from the Continent.

> Maybe Marlowe got ideas of physical representations of the heavens
> from books or woodcuts also.

Wouldn't ideas for physical representations of the heavens have been the
province of the stage designer rather than the playwright?
--
S.O.P.

[Tom Reedy]

On May 13, 8:05 pm, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 11, 4:10 pm, marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > i guess i was wrong about God also
>
> > marc
>
> I suspect it's not easy to define
> God in a sensible way.

Especially if you think of God as a person, as it seems most people
do, including atheists.

TR

[Sneaky O. Possum]

Tom Reedy <tom....@gmail.com> wrote in news:3d831359-c40d-42ab-99be-
038139...@e14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:

--
S.O.P.

[Sneaky O. Possum]

Tom Reedy <tom....@gmail.com> wrote in news:3d831359-c40d-42ab-99be-
038139...@e14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:

Thinking of God as a person follows naturally from thinking of God as a
conscious entity: when the only conscious entity you have firsthand
knowledge of is yourself, every conscious entity you think of is going to
look a lot like you.
--
S.O.P.

[laraine]

On May 14, 6:27 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Tom Reedy <tom.re...@gmail.com> wrote in news:3d831359-c40d-42ab-99be-
> 0381395f9...@e14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:

>
> > On May 13, 8:05 pm, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 11, 4:10 pm, marco <21blacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > i guess i was wrong about God also
>
> >> > marc
>
> >> I suspect it's not easy to define
> >> God in a sensible way.
>
> > Especially if you think of God as a person, as it seems most people
> > do, including atheists.
>
> Thinking of God as a person follows naturally from thinking of God as a
> conscious entity: when the only conscious entity you have firsthand
> knowledge of is yourself, every conscious entity you think of is going to
> look a lot like you.
> --
> S.O.P.

So perhaps God is thought of like a "soul",
which seems to resemble us physically,
but isn't material, or is of a different kind of
material.

If one objects to that image, it seems to me
that we really don't know what to say about
God except to guess about qualities, either
based on religious descriptions or other ideas,
or else say that there isn't anything there, or
else say that God is unfathomable.

C.

[laraine]

On May 13, 9:47 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:47ded187-8581-4ea7...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 6:02 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:0b08cb44-ceea-4864-
>
> >> > But your post got me to search for images
> >> > of God, and I saw this from the early 16th c:
>
> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cima_da_Conegliano,_God_the_Father.
> >> >jpg
>
> >> > Head over some clouds --wonder if Marlowe saw paintings like that.
>
> >> Probably not: if you wanted to see paintings like that in the late
> >> 16th century, you had to go to Italy, and there's no evidence that
> >> Marlowe did so.
>
> > I don't know --but I'll take a guess that there would have likely been
> > some medieval and Renaissance art in England. Maybe some rich people
> > could have transported it about, even from other countries.
>
> Bear in mind that Roman Catholic art had somewhat fallen out of favour
> in the England of Marlowe's day. Moreover, England was a late bloomer in
> the graphic arts as well as literature: the first great English painter
> was Nicholas Hilliard, who began his career c. 1560, and he was a bit of
> a one-off - note that the Stuarts followed in Henry VIII's footsteps by
> importing their portraitist from the Continent.

You know, these days we are so used to the internet, glossy art books,
and museums that we forget that many of those images might not have
been seen by most people at that time.

I did a quick search, and it seems much easier to find clouds in
heavens,
cupids, etc.,...the kind of thing one might read in Marlowe... in
Italian art
rather than English, Dutch, French, Spanish Renaissance art, .... but
I'll continue looking into this.

Shakespeare of course uses language describing the heavens as well...
Marlowe is thought to be a bit more dramatic about that kind of
language,
I believe.

>
> > Maybe Marlowe got ideas of physical representations of the heavens
> > from books or woodcuts also.
>
> Wouldn't ideas for physical representations of the heavens have been the
> province of the stage designer rather than the playwright?
> --
> S.O.P.

I've heard that the scenery at that time was fairly minimal, but don't
know
if anyone has researched whether playwrights discussed such things
with
the stage designer as they were writing the play. I've assumed that
the play
would have been written first.

C.

[laraine]

And Shakespeare mentions "winged
Cupid painted blind", which wiki shows
us in an Italian painting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Piero_della_Francesca_-_Cupid_Blindfolded_-_WGA17587.jpg

It seems that Cupid images are also found in
Latin writings, including the Aeneid.

C.

[John W Kennedy]

Cupid is Latin by definition. If he's Greek, his name is Eros.

--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"

[Sneaky O. Possum]

laraine <lara...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b6b6fdc2-b2a4-43b9...@s18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:

> On May 13, 9:47 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote

>> innews:47ded187-8581-4ea7-b56a-78f5794
> 34...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

If Marlowe wanted to find clouds in heavens all he had to do was look
upwards.

> Shakespeare of course uses language describing the heavens as well...
> Marlowe is thought to be a bit more dramatic about that kind of
> language, I believe.

The most dramatic passage I can recall offhand is Faustus's "See, see,
where Christ's blood streams in the firmament," which has no pictorial
antecedents that I'm aware of.

>> > Maybe Marlowe got ideas of physical representations of the heavens
>> > from books or woodcuts also.
>>
>> Wouldn't ideas for physical representations of the heavens have been
>> the province of the stage designer rather than the playwright?
>

> I've heard that the scenery at that time was fairly minimal, but don't
> know if anyone has researched whether playwrights discussed such
> things with the stage designer as they were writing the play. I've
> assumed that the play would have been written first.

The point is that a playwright doesn't create physical representations
of the heavens. Indeed, in the passage above Marlowe doesn't create any
sort of representation of the heavens: the vision of Christ's blood
streaming in the firmament represents Faustus's state of mind - cf.
Tamburlaine's exhortation to his followers: "Come, let us march against
the powers of heaven,/And set black streamers in the firmament,/To
signify the slaughter of the gods."
--
S.O.P.

[Robin G.]

On May 14, 10:46 pm, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote innews:b6b6fdc2-b2a4-43b9...@s18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:

Sneaky and Laraine,

Sneaky asks, "Wouldn't ideas for physical representations of the

heavens have been the
province of the stage designer rather than the playwright? "

There were no stage designers in the public theatres (either outdoors
or in). Yes, Inigo Jones designed sets
and costumes, but these were for court masques.

I suggest you find and read a good theatre history book. It will
answer all your questions.

[ignoto]

On 14/05/13 12:47 PM, Sneaky O. Possum wrote:> laraine

And the playwrights would turn those stage designs to their own purposes...

'"The playhouse building itself (especially outdoors) presented a
physical, three dimensional emblem of theatrum mundi: Actors stood on
the 'promontory' of the world below a 'canopy of air' and a heavens
'fretted with golden fire' and above the ghosts and demons of the
'cellarage' beneath the stage� Upon this stage-play world the
playwrights explored notions of 'game' and 'earnest', illusion and
reality. " Martin White, Renaissance Drama in Action: An Introduction
to Aspects of Theatre Practice at 95.

[cf Julius Caesar, "'the skies are painted with unnumb'red sparks"]

Ign.

>

[marco]

this is my speculation of course, but I wonder if Shakespeare,
could have been out in the audience,
while a rehearsal was going on, working on his plays...
but still giving tips on stage movement

I guess they couldn't afford real directors

marc

[Robin G.]

There were no directors at the time. The actors worked out the "stage
movement."
The beginning of the role of director happened in the court theatre of
Georg II, Duke of Saxe-Meiningen in
1866. The Duke gets the credit, but it was the Meiningen Players'
director, Ludwig Chronegk who carried out
the Duke's ideas/plans beginning in 1871.

[laraine]

On May 15, 3:11 am, ignoto <b...@blahblahblah.blah> wrote:
> On 14/05/13 12:47 PM, Sneaky O. Possum wrote:> laraine

> <larai...@gmail.com> wrote in

> 'cellarage' beneath the stage… Upon this stage-play world the

> playwrights explored notions of 'game' and 'earnest', illusion and
> reality.  " Martin White, Renaissance Drama in Action: An Introduction
> to Aspects of Theatre Practice at 95.
>
> [cf Julius Caesar, "'the skies are painted with unnumb'red sparks"]
>
> Ign.
>
>  >

And were the ceilings painted as
the heavens... I believe I saw a photo
of a modern rendition of such. The
question would be, how were they painted
then, and would some of it have
been based on previous paintings...

Perhaps some English artists traveled to
other countries and saw some of the
Italian paintings that we mentioned.

C.

[Tom Reedy]

In 1613 the German translator Johannes Rhenanus wrote, "As for the
actors, they (as I have noted in England) are instructed daily as
though at school; even the most prominent actors must permit
themselves to be instructed in their parts by the poets, and this is
what endows a well-written comedy with life and grace. Thus it is no
wonder that the English comedians (I speak of the practiced ones) are
more excellent than others."

There are some critics who think Rhenanus is speaking of academic
instead of commercial productions, but to me the context, including
the phrases "as though at school", "most prominent actors" and
"English comedians", suggest more the public rather than the private
stage.

TR

[John W Kennedy]

"Real directors", as we think of them, are a 19th-century invention.
Georg II, Duke of Saxe-Meinigen (1826-1914), is often accounted the
first. (But the best Shakespeare director I know says about it, "Cast
the right actors. The rest is just directing traffic.")

--
John W Kennedy
"Information is light. Information, in itself, about anything, is light."
-- Tom Stoppard. "Night and Day"

[John W Kennedy]

I never heard that before. But "instructed ... in their parts" and "by
the poets" raise quite a few questions as to how much this actually
resembles what we call "directing" today.

--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"

[ignoto]

>> 'cellarage' beneath the stage� Upon this stage-play world the

>> playwrights explored notions of 'game' and 'earnest', illusion and
>> reality. " Martin White, Renaissance Drama in Action: An Introduction
>> to Aspects of Theatre Practice at 95.
>>
>> [cf Julius Caesar, "'the skies are painted with unnumb'red sparks"]
>>
>> Ign.
>>
>> >
>
> And were the ceilings painted as
> the heavens...

Yup, that's exactly what is being suggested 'fretted with golden fire'
and ''the skies are painted with unnumb'red sparks' have double
referents (the real world and the world of the playhouse).

Here's the pic from the modern globe:

http://www.infobritain.co.uk/Globe_Canopy.jpg

Ign.

[marco]

thanks all

marc

[marco]

Masques may have been staged differently

William Shakespeare wrote a masque-like interlude in The Tempest,
understood by modern scholars to have been heavily influenced by
the masque texts of Ben Jonson and the stagecraft of Inigo Jones.
There is also a masque sequence in his Romeo and Juliet and Henry VIII.
John Milton's Comus (with music by Henry Lawes) is described as a masque,
though it is generally reckoned a pastoral play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masque

marc

[laraine]

On May 15, 12:46 am, "Sneaky O. Possum" <sneakyopos...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I like your example, but I was thinking of something
else,... a few images that described humans up in the
realm of clouds or above the clouds, normally where
the gods or God would be. It might suggest hubris.

Where do such images come from.... can we find the
in earlier paintings or writings...

And indeed, we did see God looking down at the clouds
in the Cima da Conegliano painting, a similar idea.

I imagine we might find something in Roman literature
as well.

Some quotes:

(Faustus)

The Pope says:

He [The Emperor] grows too proud in his authority,
Lifting his lofty head above the clouds,
And like a steeple overpeers the church.
But we'll pull down his haughty insolence,
(Faustus B-text)

(Chorus describes Faustus)
To find the secrets of astronomy,
Graven in the book of Jove's high firmament,
Did mount him up to scale Olympus' top,
Where, sitting in a chariot burning bright
Drawn by the strength of yoked dragons' necks,
He views the clouds, the planets, and the stars
(Faustus B-text)


------------------

COSROE. Come, Tamburlaine, now whet thy winged sword,
And lift thy lofty arm into the clouds,
That it may reach the king of Persia's crown
And set it safe on my victorious head.

(Tamburlaine)
For taking hence my fair Zenocrate.
Casane and Theridamas, to arms!
Raise cavalieros higher than the clouds,
And with the cannon break the frame of heaven.
Batter the shining palace of the sun,
And shiver all the starry firmament,
For amorous Jove hath snatched my love from hence,

------------------

and then this in Shakespeare:

(Brutus, Julius Caesar)
But 'tis a common proof,
That lowliness is young ambition's ladder,
Whereto the climber-upward turns his face;
But when he once attains the upmost round.
He then unto the ladder turns his back,
Looks in the clouds, scorning the base degrees
By which he did ascend. So Caesar may.


===============================
Some descriptions of gods or God or heaven:

In Marlowe

(Iarbus from Dido, Queen of Carthage)
Eternal Jove, great master of the clouds,
Father of gladness and all frolic thoughts,
That with thy gloomy hand corrects the heaven
When airy creatures war amongst themselves,

(From Massacre at Paris)
NAVARRE. But he that sits and rules above the clouds
Doth hear and see the prayers of the just,
And will revenge the blood of innocents,


In Shakespeare:

ROMEO
She speaks:
O, speak again, bright angel! for thou art
As glorious to this night, being o'er my head
As is a winged messenger of heaven
Unto the white-upturned wondering eyes
Of mortals that fall back to gaze on him
When he bestrides the lazy-pacing clouds
And sails upon the bosom of the air.


BENVOLIO
O Romeo, Romeo, brave Mercutio's dead!
That gallant spirit hath aspired the clouds,
Which too untimely here did scorn the earth.

[marco]

listening to the Troilus & Cressida discussion

marc

[neonprose @ gmail.com]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 3:45:49 PM UTC-7, book...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 May 2013 14:43:02 -0400, John W Kennedy
>
> <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Where's your proof that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet?
>
> In the Webinar transcript no less than Stanley Wells
>
> states "Bacon wrote Hamlet." And in fact proof of that
>
> is held by BUNEL at Cambridge University, in 16th c.
>
> props that the actors carried around in the play.
>
> Bacon wrote Hamlet and thirty-five other marvelous
>
> plays.
>
> SHAKESPEARE WROTE NOTHING.
>
> If you can find a script of Hamlet in Shakespeare's authenticated
>
> handwriting -- and we have plenty of evidence that Bacon wrote
>
> Hamlet -- I'll eat the damn thing.

>
> >On 2013-05-10 18:14:40 +0000, marco said:
>
> >
>
> >> listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
>
> >> it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
>
> >> were a real person
>

> >> As Shakespeare was illiterate, I doubt he knew who Coriolanus
>
> > > was.
>
> >Although modern scholars have expressed some doubt about the story, he
>
> >was accepted as a real person for over two thousand years, and
>
> >Shakespeare certainly thought he was real; he and his story appeared in
>
> >all the standard works of Roman history, ancient and (in Shakespeare's
>
> >day) modern.
>
> >Don't conflate Shakespeare with Francis Bacon, the author of thirty-six
>
> >great plays that are still being staged in this era (of course the stagees
>
> > probably believe they were written by the Broker, but we know better.

>
> >> what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real people?
>
> >>
>
> >> God comes to mind
>
> >
>

> >Sorry. I didn't know you were only twelve.
>
>
>
> I can think of a fictional person that we empathize with to a
>
> considerable extent: Ophelia. That's because of her dilemma over her
>
> father and Hamlet, her suicide after Hamlet Kills him, how this
>
> affects others, and the sorry state of being buried as a suicide.
>
>
>
> Shakespeare endows Ophelia with some choice garden imagery, as
>
> "Throughout the play Hamlet, Ophelia is associated with floral
>
> imagery. Her father, Polonius, presents her with a violet, she sings
>
> songs about flowers when she turns mad, she drowns amid garlands of
>
> flowers, and finally, at her burial, Queen Gertrude tosses flowers
>
> into her grave. Flowers symbolize her fragile beauty, blossoming
>
> sexuality, and a condemned innocence."
>
>
>
> Yet the mystery of Ophelia's suicide is still debated strongly at many
>
> Internet sites, especially noticing what may show her sexual
>
> compromise. See her post-Polonius songs and the lines in IV,v:
>
>
>
> QUEEN GERTRUDE There is a willow grows aslant a brook,
>
> That shows his hoar leaves in the glassy stream;
>
> There with fantastic garlands did she come
>
> Of crow-flowers, nettles, daisies, and long purples
>
> That liberal shepherds give a grosser name,
>
> But our cold maids do dead men's fingers call them:
>
> There, on the pendent boughs her coronet weeds
>
> Clambering to hang, an envious sliver broke;
>
> When down her weedy trophies and herself
>
> Fell in the weeping brook. Her clothes spread wide;
>
> And, mermaid-like, awhile they bore her up:
>
> Which time she chanted snatches of old tunes;
>
> As one incapable of her own distress,
>
> Or like a creature native and indued
>
> Unto that element: but long it could not be
>
> Till that her garments, heavy with their drink,
>
> Pull'd the poor wretch from her melodious lay
>
> To muddy death.
>
>
>
> The famous painting, "Ophelia", by Millais and series of poems by
>
> German authors of "the drowning girl" school demonstrate this on-going
>
> vogue about Ophelia that seems to re-create her as a mythic heroine.
>
> While it's common to discuss Shakespeare's characters as actors would,
>
> in the present tense, as if they are real, Ophelia seems to arouse
>
> emotional responses in us, IMO. Some have even suggested that Hamlet
>
> is her play? bookburn
>
> Uhh, Wells affirms that "Hamlet" is Bacon's play.

[marco]

[marco]

reading Antony & Cleopatra

marc

[neon...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:43:02 AM UTC-7, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2013-05-10 18:14:40 +0000, marco said:
>
>
>
> > listening to the discussion of Coriolanus,
>
> > it was interesting that they were talking about Coriolanus as if he
>
> > were a real person
>
>
>

> Although modern scholars have expressed some doubt about the story, he
>
> was accepted as a real person for over two thousand years, and
>
> Shakespeare certainly thought he was real; he and his story appeared in
>
> all the standard works of Roman history, ancient and (in Shakespeare's
>
> day) modern.
>

> KENNEDY . . . Shakespeare wrote nothing, he didn't compose a
>
> single play, Bacon is solely responsible for the thirty-six magnificent
>
> plays in the 1623 First Folio. Jonson supplied the Front Matter.
>
>
> The leading authority on what Shappere was up to is the
>
> Dean of Drake University, Joseph Lenz, Lenz traveled to
>
> London, delved deeply into the Blackfriar's records, which
>
> records proved that Shakespeare was nothing but a
>
> panderer. And yes, the constellation of terminal diseases
>
> available at his whore houses, took this illiterate Broker down
>
> right on schedule. He managed to make it back to
>
> Stratford, only to die in his bed. And he cannot be the
>
> Poet of the Shakespeare Sonnets because he's telling
>
> his son uh whatzit to get married when his son, oh
>
> Hamnet, had been dead for several years. Figure that.
>
> The only Poet of the Shakespeare Sonnets that fits
>
> every line is Bacon, who is urging his adult son to
>
> wed. William Herbert was living in sinne with his
>
> mistress, iirc, Lady Mary Wroth, by whom Herbert
>
> had two children, William and the infant Catherine.

>
> > what other fictional characters do we think of as [almost] real people?
>
> >
>
> > God comes to mind
>
>
>
> Sorry. I didn't know you were only twelve.
>

> note: Elizabeth didn't write the two lines above,
>
> I'm not into blasphemy.
>
> --
>
> John W Kennedy
>
> "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
>
> Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
>
> The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
>
> corrected."
>
> -- G. K. Chesterton