Sandys, Malta, and The Tempest.
Yogi Buchon
begun An: Dom: 1610* by George Sandys. The excerpt covers the days
around Sunday, June 2, 1611 when Sandys approached Malta and then
landed there. I like to think that it's possible Christopher Marlowe,
who may have been living in exile on Malta at the time, met George
Sandys, and then wrote *The Tempest* by direct inspiration from this
chance encounter. The purpose of the storm scene in the play may have
had two purposes: (1) to suggest Malta by alluding to St. Paul's
shipwreck on Malta as described in the New Testament, and (2) to
suggest the tempest which brought George Sandys into Malta. The
following description by Sandys of his initial contact with Malta
would be like Ferdinand telling a tale of his initial contact with the
island in *The Tempest*. The excerpt comes from pages 226 and 227.
Words enclosed with asterisks are italicized.
--------------------
"... We past by the South side of *Sicilia*, and left *Malta* on the
left hand; when out of hope to be set ashore (for it was the purpose
of our Merchant before he met with these consorts, to have touched at
Messina) and sadded with the apprehension of so tedious a voyage, on
the sodaine the wind came about, and blowing fiercely West and by
North, did all the night following exercise his fury; our ships rather
losing then gaining of their way, and exceedingly tossed, the weather
not likely to alter, they resolved to put in to *Malta*. So on the
second of June being Sunday, we entred the haven that lies on the East
side of the Citie of *Valetta*, which we saluted with eighteene peeces
of ordnance: but we were not suffered to come into the Citie, (though
every ship had a neat Patent to show that those places from whence
they came were free from the infection) nor suffered to depart when
the wind blew faire; which was within a day or two after. For the
gallies of the Religion were then setting forth, to make some attempt
upon *Barbarie*. The reason thereof, left being taken by the Pirats,
or touching upon occasion at *Tripoly*, *Tunis*, or *Argiere*, their
designes might be by compulsion or voluntarily revealed: nor would
they suffer any frigot of their owne, for feare of surprisall, to go
out of the haven, untill many dayes after that the gallies were
departed. But because the *English* were so strong (a great ship of
*Holland* putting also in to seeke companie) and that they intended to
make no more ports; on the sixt of June they were licensed to set
saile: the Maisters having the night before in their several
long-boates attended the returne of the great Maister, (who had bin
abroad in his gally to view a Fort that then was in building) and
welcomed him home with one and twentie peeces of ordnance.
But no intreatie could get me aboard; choosing rather to undergo all
hazards and hardnesse whatsoever, then so long a voyage by sea, to my
nature so irksome. And so was I left alone on a naked promontorie
right against the Citie, remote from the concourse of people, without
provision, and not knowing how to dispose myselfe. At length a little
boate made towards me, rowed by an officer appointed to attend on
strangers that had not Pratticke, lest others by coming into their
companie should receive the infection: who carried me to the hollow
hanging of a rocke, where I was for that night to take up my lodging;
and the day following to be conveyed by him unto the *Lazaretta*,
there to remaine for thirtie or fortie daies before I could be
admitted into the Citie. But behold an accident, which I rather
thought at the first to have bene a vision, then (as I found out)
reall. My guardian being departed to fetch me some victuals, laid
along, and musing on my present condition, a *Phalucco* arriveth at
the place. Out of which there stept two old women; the one made me
doubt whether she were so or no, she drew her face into so many
formes, and with such anticke gestures stared upon me. These two did
spread a *Turkie* carpet on the rocke, and on that a table-cloth,
which they furnished with a varietie of the choisest viands. Anon
another arrived, which set a Gallant ashore with his two *Amarosaes*,
attired like Nymphs, with lutes in their hands, full of disport and
sorcery. For litle would they suffer him to eate, but what he received
with his mouth from their fingers. Sometimes the one would play on the
lute whilest the other sang, and laid his head in her lap; their false
eies looking upon him, as if their hearts were troubled with passions.
The attending hags had no small part in the comedie, administring
matter of mirth with their ridiculous moppings. Who indeed (as I after
heard) were their mothers; borne in *Greece*, and by them brought
hither to trade amongst the unmarried fraternitie. At length the
*French* Captaine (for such he was, and of much regard) came and
intreated me to take a part of their banquet; which my stomacke
perswaded me to accept of. He willed them to make much of the
*Forestier*: but they were not to be taught entertainment; and grew so
familiar, as was to neither of our likings. But both he and they, in
pitie of my hard lodging, did offer to bring me into the Citie by
night (an offence, that if knowne, is punished by death,) and backe
againe in the morning. Whilest they were urging me thereunto, my
guardian returned; with him a *Maltese*, whose father was an English
man: he made acquainted therewith, did by all meanes dehort them. At
length (the Captaine having promised to labour my admittance into the
Citie) they departed. When a good way from shore, the curtizans stript
themselves, and leapt into the sea; where they violated all the
prescriptions of modestie. But the Captaine the next morning was not
unmindfull of his promise; soliciting the Great Maister in my behalfe,
as he sate in councel; who with the assent of the great Crosses,
granted me Pratticke. So I came into the Citie, and was kindly
entertained in the house of the aforesaid *Maltese* where for three
weekes space, with much contentment I remained."
--------------------
So, who was this "*Maltese*, whose father was an English man" and in
whose house Sandys was "entertained" for a space of three weeks? Was
the Maltese a young female like Miranda? And, was the father a bookish
man like Prospero, possibly William Watts (known to have been a
resident of Malta at the time)? Fascinating questions that some hard
research may answer.
The first known performance of *The Tempest* was November 1, 1611. If
this was indeed the very first performance of the play, it is
consistent with it being written in the time frame of June and July of
1611 during and after Sandys visit to Malta. The play is one of the
shortest in the canon.
Finally, here is a link to an essay about George Sandys. There a few
minor typos, but it gives some good details which are absent from many
full-length books on Sandys, especially the dates.
http://www.uscolo.edu/history/seminar/sandys/howard.htm
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
KQKnave
yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon) writes:
>
>Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of [ridiculous bs snipped]
Update 4/30/03
Baker is back.
New pseudonym:
yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
Notice he reversed it from
Yogi Buchon (yogib...@yahoo.com)
This allows him to defeat killfiles.
Some of the more recent pseudonyms:
E._K._Chambers
John_the_Baker_of_Centralia
John_the_Baker
not to be confused with john_the_baker.
On the 24th Jan I posted (in the thread, "Is Art Neuendorffer a Looney"?):
"Well, there's nothing we can do about it if he wants to post.
I killfiled him a long time ago, so I never see his posts,
along with Weir and the Baker pseudonyms that I know about."
Immediately after that post Baker shows up again. But did he ever leave? Here
are his
latest pseudonyms if you want to killfile him:
Dr._John_Baker,_M.D.,_D.V.S.,_Ph.D.,_D.D.,_etc.
John_Baker
Likewise, John Bede disappeared on the 24th.
beautif...@yahoo.com last posted on the 23rd, on the
24th "she" appears as mountai...@RockAthens.com, in
bakerian fashion. They both exhibit the same looney style
that I see in baker, but even if they're not baker, they
might as well be.
=====================================================
baker is a certified loon, who fakes his Ph.D. credentials
not only here but in publications like the Elizabethan Review.
His views are insane. He believes that
King Lear is a comedy, that the moon landings were faked, that
Shakespeare was a "hempen homespun" despite proof of his
father's wealth, and god knows what else.
My refutations of a couple of his ridiculous web pages
can be found at
hometown.aol.com/kqknave/index.html
He also posts voluminously
on newsgroups using many pseudonyms, some of which are:
John Bede
Arbella Stuart (Arbella...@my-deja.com)
Bacon (ba...@my-deja.com)
John Padden (john_pa...@hotmail.com)
Telemachos <son_of_...@hotmail.com)
elizabe...@mail.com (google)
elizabe...@boldplanet.com
(Signed his name "Liz" but forgot to change the header in
this post:
He continually changes his headers to make it
difficult for those who want to filter out his posts.
He has been doing that for quite some time.
Here are his older pseudonyms:
yogib...@yahoo.com
Doctor John the Faker Baker
Alcibiades <son_of_...@hotmail.com
john_the-baker <john_th...@my-deja.com>
Ba...@my-deja.com
BA...@my-deja.com (BAker)
Bacon (ba...@my-deja.com)
Prospero <pros...@my-deja.com>
Ophelia <Oph...@my-deja.com>
Shimur Taniyama <Shimur_...@my-deja.com>
Skylock <Sky...@my-deja.com>
Socrates/Falstaff <Socrates/Fals...@my-deja.com>
Alkibiades <Alkib...@my-deja.com> (at the bottom
of this one it says "post for "Alkibiades" by John Baker".
See the thread *On Parallels Between the Death of Socrates
and Falstaff*, the Feb 21 2001 post. The thread was begun by
Socrates/Falstaff (aka baker) on Feb 9 2001)
Alkibiades <Alkib...@my-deja.com>
John_...@my-deja.com (John_Baker)
Alcibiades <son_of_...@hotmail.com
john_the-baker <john_th...@my-deja.com>
John_...@my-deja.com
Alcibiades...@my-deja.com
Alckibiades <>
Ebenezer (Eben...@my-deja.com)
Alcibiades [no email at all]
baker_ne...@my-deja.com
Alcibiades@
Alcib...@my-deja.com
Alkibiades (brot...@aol.com),
alkibia...@my-deja.com,
ba...@my-deja.com,
John Baker (mar...@localaccess.com),
Alcibiades(kot...@hotmail.com)
jo...@my-deja.com (signed his email "John Baker" on Feb 9 2001)
john_...@my-deja.com
See my demolition of Monsarrat's RES paper!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/monsarr1.html
The Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html
Agent Jim
Bob Grumman
equal to or better than Strachey's after reading Buchon's introductory remarks.
I don't know whether this guy is Baker or not, but he certainly matches Baker's
incredible stupidity.
--Bob G.
In article <9251b822.03043...@posting.google.com>,
yogib...@yahoo.com says...
bookburn
"KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comcrashed> wrote in message
news:20030430145811...@mb-m29.aol.com...
> In article <9251b822.03043...@posting.google.com>,
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon) writes:
>
> >
> >Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of [ridiculous bs
snipped]
>
> Update 4/30/03
> Baker is back.
> New pseudonym:
Welcome back, Baker. I come as Greymalkin, how comest you?
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
>
> Notice he reversed it from
> Yogi Buchon (yogib...@yahoo.com)
>
> This allows him to defeat killfiles.
After all, Don Quixote is a knight errant on a quest of honor,
fighting evil.
> Some of the more recent pseudonyms:
>
> E._K._Chambers
>
> John_the_Baker_of_Centralia
>
> John_the_Baker
>
> not to be confused with john_the_baker.
>
> On the 24th Jan I posted (in the thread, "Is Art Neuendorffer a
Looney"?):
>
> "Well, there's nothing we can do about it if he wants to post.
Well, for someone intent upon making Baker invisible, you are doing
a good job of
finding him out. Well said, old mole! canst work i' the earth so
fast?
> I killfiled him a long time ago, so I never see his posts,
> along with Weir and the Baker pseudonyms that I know about."
>
> Immediately after that post Baker shows up again. But did he ever
leave? Here
> are his
> latest pseudonyms if you want to killfile him:
>
> Dr._John_Baker,_M.D.,_D.V.S.,_Ph.D.,_D.D.,_etc.
>
> John_Baker
>
> Likewise, John Bede disappeared on the 24th.
> beautif...@yahoo.com last posted on the 23rd, on the
> 24th "she" appears as mountai...@RockAthens.com, in
> bakerian fashion. They both exhibit the same looney style
> that I see in baker, but even if they're not baker, they
> might as well be.
> =====================================================
>
> baker is a certified loon, who fakes his Ph.D. credentials
> not only here but in publications like the Elizabethan Review.
> His views are insane. He believes that
> King Lear is a comedy, that the moon landings were faked, that
> Shakespeare was a "hempen homespun" despite proof of his
> father's wealth, and god knows what else.
What if he is only pretending to be "off" and is in reality
anointing himself in public and fasting in private. Anyway, he has
convinced enough people in the Shakespeare industry to have appeared
in the documentary about Marlowe recently. Doesn't that prove him
professionally certified?
BTW, how different is call King Lear a comedy from what you said
about sonnet 143:
"The use of barnyard imagery may or not be biographical, but his use
of it in a sonnet sequence is probably for the same reason one
beloved is an unattainable male and
the other is a woman of low morals: It's a joke." Aside from wit,
humor is an important way of exploring Shakespeare's art and
mindscape?
Keep this up and you'll have enough characters for a sea novel, in
which Baker pursues white whales in the "Looney" like an Ahab. But
I assume you have no reason to sink his ship because you're not a
white whale.
bookburn
KQKnave
writes:
>
>To think that I feared maybe Sandys had left behind a source for The Tempset
>equal to or better than Strachey's after reading Buchon's introductory
>remarks.
>I don't know whether this guy is Baker or not, but he certainly matches
>Baker's
>incredible stupidity.
>
Maybe it's Neuendorffer imitating him. The only other poster on this
group for the last 7 years who had an obsession with Sandys was
Neuendorffer. Also, yogi posted from yogi...@yahoo.com originally,
and under that email name he posted a disparagement of David Webb
(see the thread from Feb 12, 2002 titled "A Not-So-Beautiful Mind")
a favorite topic to Baker. Neuendorffer is always tangling with Webb,
but I don't know if he goes nuts on Webb like Baker and "Janet" have
in the past.
Anyway I made a mistake in my last post. Yogi didn't reverse his
email name, it's just displayed differently on aol and google.
Roundtable
> Update 4/30/03
> Baker is back.
> New pseudonym:
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
> Notice he reversed it from
> Yogi Buchon (yogib...@yahoo.com)
> This allows him to defeat killfiles.
He also had Yogi...@yahoo.com
He posted the same Sandys, Malta, Marlowe material on
14. Jan 2002.
> Some of the more recent pseudonyms:
(snip)
> elizabe...@mail.com (google)
> elizabe...@boldplanet.com
But oddly enough, Elizabeth Weir reprimanded Yogi in the
thread entitled "A Not So Beautiful Mind", saying:
"Really Baker, this is not very nice".
I could comprehend Baker patting himself on the back, but not
telling himself off...
Not in print, at least.
Roundtable
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Elizabeth Weir
> elizabe...@mail.com (google)
> elizabe...@boldplanet.com
>
> (Signed his name "Liz" but forgot to change the header in
> this post:
Is the fact that Baker thinks Marlowe wrote the Shakespeare
works and I think Bacon wrote them too much complexity for you?
I'm not Baker. Even Webb tried to tell you that I'm not Baker.
This "proof of conspiracy"
> elizabe...@mail.com (google)
> elizabe...@boldplanet.com
only means that I used boldplanet.com for a week when
mail.com wouldn't send me a lost password url.
Again, I'm not Baker, I think Bacon, not Marlowe, wrote
the Marlowe plays [so did John Marston and apparently
Thomas Edwards] and that theory would be a total
anethema to Baker.
Art Neuendorffer
> Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of *A relation of a journey
> begun An: Dom: 1610* by George Sandys. The excerpt covers the days
> around Sunday, June 2, 1611 when Sandys approached Malta and then
> landed there.
> --------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*ANDREW WISE* from Waterford : Grand Prior 1593-1631
--------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kathman's spellings of Shake-speare:
1. 1594: in Willobie His Avisa
2. 1598: Q2 Richard III (for Andrew WISE Grand Prior 1593-1631)
3. 1598: Q2 Richard II (for Andrew WISE Grand Prior 1593-1631)
4. 1599: Q2 Henry IV, Pt 1 (for Andrew WISE Grand Prior 1593-1631)
5. 1601: Phoenix and the Turtle
6. 1603: Q1 Hamlet
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www3.telus.net/oxford/oxfordspoems.html#toppoems
Oxford Poem
Although indeed it sprung of JOY,
Yet others thought it was ANNOY;
Thus contraries be used, I find,
Of WISE to cloak the coVERt mind. - E.O.
------------------------------------------------------------
Shake-speare, at length thy PIOUS FELLOWES give
The world thy Workes : thy Workes, by which, out-live
Thy TOMBE, thy name must when that STONE is rent,
And Time dissolves thy Stratford Moniment,
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<<Whenever a town was founded a round hole would first be dug.
In the bottom of it a STONE, LAPIS manalis, which represented
a gate to the Underworld, would then be embedded.
On August 23rd, this STONE would be removed
to permit the Manes to pass through.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
On August 23, 1600, Shakespeare 1st appears in Stationer's Register
when *ANDREW WYSE* enters "II Henry IV"
and "Much Ado About Nothing".
-------------------------------------------------------------
_THIS STAR OF ENGLAND_ Chap. 8
http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/Star/ch08.html
by Dorothy & Charlton Ogburn
<<IN JANUARY 7, 1575, Lord Oxford set forth with his retinue,
consisting, as Burghley noted in his diary, of "two gentlemen,
two grooms, one payend, a harbinger, a housekeeper & a trenchman."
Before the end of May the traveller reached Venice, where he
declined a generous offer on the part of [titular Grand Prior]
Sir RICHARD SHELLEY of a furnished house, to continue his journey.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<<By 1567 the only English knights remaining on Malta were the
titular Grand Prior RICHARD SHELLEY (who was an active participant
in several plots against Elizabeth) and Oliver Starkey (commander
of Quenington), later titular BAILIFF of Egle (from 1569).>>
<<Starkey, who had been La Valette's Latin Secretary
and was the only Englishman at the Great Siege,
died in 1588 & SHELLEY in 1590, when a French knight
was appointed to the titular Grand Priory.
This appointment was challenged by an Irish knight resident
in the convent, one *ANDREW WISE* from Waterford who, after
complaining, was appointed BAILIFF of Egle but, still unsatisfied,
appealed to the Pope. In 1593 Wise was appointed titular Grand Prior,
a dignity he held until his death in 1631. From thenceforth the
offices of Grand Prior of England, TURCOPILIER, BAILIFF of Egle
and Prior or Grand Prior of Ireland became honorifics given to
knights whom the Grand Master & Council wished to honor with
the grand cross & membership of the Chapter-General.>>
THE KNIGHTS OF SAINT JOHN IN ENGLAND, SCOTLAND & IRELAND
http://www.saintjohn.org/priory.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> >To think that I feared maybe Sandys had left behind a source for The
Tempset
> >equal to or better than Strachey's after reading Buchon's introductory
> >remarks.
> >I don't know whether this guy is Baker or not, but he certainly matches
> >Baker's incredible stupidity.
"KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comcrashed> wrote
> Maybe it's Neuendorffer imitating him.
Only if you guys throw in the Owl.
Ophelia They say the owl was a baker's daughter.
"KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comcrashed> wrote
> The only other poster on this group for the last 7 years
> who had an obsession with Sandys was Neuendorffer.
My contract has a Sandys Clause
(or is it a Sanity Clause?)
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
> Again, I'm not Baker, I think Bacon, not Marlowe, wrote
> the Marlowe plays [so did John Marston and apparently
> Thomas Edwards] and that theory would be
> a total anethema to Baker.
And an anathema to Beaker!
http://www.muppets.com/profiles/beaker.htm
http://wamber.net/photos/halloween-2001/tn/dsc00034.jpg.html
http://www.toymania.com/news/messages/0110_beaker2_sm.shtml
Art N.
David L. Webb
elizabe...@mail.com (Elizabeth Weir) wrote:
> anethema [sic] to Baker.
...except that "Dr." Faker would probably call it a "mathenema"
rather than an "anethema" or even an anathema. Indeed, that's a better
way to tell Faker and Elizabeth Weird apart -- Elizabeth is a heretical
amateur at mangling the English language (or as Faker would say, a
"hieratical" "armature"), while Faker himself is a seasoned professional.
Yogi Buchon
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon) writes:
>
> >
> >Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of [ridiculous bs snipped]
>
> Update 4/30/03
> Baker is back.
> New pseudonym:
>
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
>
> Notice he reversed it from
> Yogi Buchon (yogib...@yahoo.com)
>
> This allows him to defeat killfiles.
>
>
> Agent Jim
Unfortunately, Jim, you're wrong. Baker's viewpoint on Marlowe is much
different than mine.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Yogi Buchon
> To think that I feared maybe Sandys had left behind a source for The Tempset
> equal to or better than Strachey's after reading Buchon's introductory remarks.
> I don't know whether this guy is Baker or not, but he certainly matches Baker's
> incredible stupidity.
>
> --Bob G.
>
Well, Bob, I'm glad you mentioned Strachey. Is it really such a good
source for The Tempest, or are you just parroting what you've read
somewhere? Here's a link which defends the idea that St. Paul's short
account of his shipwreck on Malta has more similarities with The
Tempest than Strachey's much longer story of a shipwreck.
http://www.everreader.com/tempdate.htm
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Bob Grumman
>> Baker's incredible stupidity.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>
>Well, Bob, I'm glad you mentioned Strachey. Is it really such a good
>source for The Tempest, or are you just parroting what you've read
>somewhere?
It's really such a good source. The main reason is that Strachey wrote just
before the first mention of a performance of Shakespeare's play--about a
shipwreck that was very recent and much discussed at the time. If the Tempest
was written in 1611 or so, and all sane dating schemes indicate that it would
have been, it is hard to believe that it would have mentioned a shipwreck, and
ensuing events on an island, WITHOUT reference to Strachey's shipwreck.
Here's a link which defends the idea that St. Paul's short
>account of his shipwreck on Malta has more similarities with The
>Tempest than Strachey's much longer story of a shipwreck.
I must be missing something because all Moore's trivial attempt to block sanity
does is show that other writers whose subject was a shipwreck wrote about St.
Elmo's fire. It brings in St. Paul, too, but pretty irrelevantly, since about
all that the Paul adventure has in common with the Tempest adventure is the
wreck of a ship. Moore skips the strange coincidence of the Strachey account's
coming just before we first here about an obviously late play of Shakespeare's
and ignores all the points brought up by David Kathman (albeit later) and his
and Terry Ross's site.
--Bob G.
Art Neuendorffer
> Baker's viewpoint on Marlowe is much different than mine.
Could you elaborate?
Art N.
Art Neuendorffer
http://ljhs.sdcs.k12.ca.us/departments/english/temp/tempsg2.html
Art Neuendorffer
Yogi Buchon
Thank you, Art! Richard Shelley, Oliver Starkey, and Andrew Wise? Yes,
I was aware of these three members of the nobility and their
connection with Malta. But, Shelley and Starkey had died before June
1611, so these two knights could not be the "English man" mentioned in
George Sandys' account of Malta. Andrew Wise is a possiblity, as is
one mysterious William Watts, a commoner and a longtime resident of
Malta from the early 1590's to sometime after 1610. I tend to discount
Andrew Wise for various reasons, but I may be wrong. I read somewhere
that he had taken up residence in Naples with some Italian knight, and
visited Malta infrequently. I thought the writer was implying Wise was
homosexual. So Wise is not the likeliest person to be living at home
with a son or daughter. Besides, if Sandys was being entertained at
the home of The Grand Prior of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, I think he
would have made some reference to this, but again, I may be wrong. If
the "English man" was indeed the still-living Christopher Marlowe aka
William Watts, then Sandys needed to use extra caution to keep
Marlowe's secret name and life out of public attention.
But, if Marlowe was the English father of Sandys' account, a father
with possibly a Maltese daughter, then who was the mother? Well, the
sonnets seem to be written from about 1593 to 1595. The last of the
sonnets have to do with a romantic relationship with the Dark Lady.
Was this Dark Lady a young, tawny-skinned Maltese woman? Did a child
result from the relationship? If it was a daughter, she would have
been about the age of Miranda in The Tempest. Maybe after some
historian writes a article about William Watts and his life on Malta,
I'll be proven totally wrong. Then again, maybe not.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Gary Kosinsky
Weir) wrote:
>Is the fact that Baker thinks Marlowe wrote the Shakespeare
>works and I think Bacon wrote them too much complexity for you?
>
>I'm not Baker. Even Webb tried to tell you that I'm not Baker.
>
>This "proof of conspiracy"
>
> > elizabe...@mail.com (google)
> > elizabe...@boldplanet.com
>
>only means that I used boldplanet.com for a week when
>mail.com wouldn't send me a lost password url.
>
>Again, I'm not Baker, I think Bacon, not Marlowe, wrote
>the Marlowe plays [so did John Marston and apparently
>Thomas Edwards] and that theory would be a total
>anethema to Baker.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
- Gary Kosinsky
Art Neuendorffer
> Thank you, Art! Richard Shelley, Oliver Starkey, and Andrew Wise? Yes,
> I was aware of these three members of the nobility and their
> connection with Malta. But, Shelley and Starkey had died before June
> 1611, so these two knights could not be the "English man" mentioned in
> George Sandys' account of Malta.
Unless their deaths were faked too.
> Andrew Wise is a possiblity, as is
> one mysterious William Watts, a commoner and a longtime resident of
> Malta from the early 1590's to sometime after 1610. I tend to discount
> Andrew Wise for various reasons, but I may be wrong. I read somewhere
> that he had taken up residence in Naples with some Italian knight, and
> visited Malta infrequently.
A Wise move?
> I thought the writer was implying Wise was homosexual.
> So Wise is not the likeliest person to be living at home
> with a son or daughter. Besides, if Sandys was being entertained at
> the home of The Grand Prior of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, I think he
> would have made some reference to this, but again, I may be wrong.
The Anglo-Bavarian langue, was supposed created in 1782 so if Sandys had
mentioned it it would have completely blown their cover. In any event Wise
would have been of the English Langue.
> If the "English man" was indeed the still-living Christopher Marlowe
> aka William Watts, then Sandys needed to use extra caution to keep
> Marlowe's secret name and life out of public attention.
Wise is excluded because it was hinted that he was homosexual
but Marlowe isn't excluded for same?
> But, if Marlowe was the English father of Sandys' account, a father
> with possibly a Maltese daughter, then who was the mother? Well, the
> sonnets seem to be written from about 1593 to 1595. The last of the
> sonnets have to do with a romantic relationship with the Dark Lady.
> Was this Dark Lady a young, tawny-skinned Maltese woman?
> Did a child result from the relationship?
Was the child weaned on Maltese Milk?
> If it was a daughter, she would have
> been about the age of Miranda in The Tempest. Maybe after some
> historian writes a article about William Watts and his life on Malta,
> I'll be proven totally wrong. Then again, maybe not.
Watts on Malta?
One of the nice things about dumping Shakspere was to get a person (ANY
PERSON) with a REAL (and believable) documented history. Marlowe doesn't
(and will never) qualify.
Art Neuendorffer
Yogi Buchon
> "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > Thank you, Art! Richard Shelley, Oliver Starkey, and Andrew Wise? Yes,
> > I was aware of these three members of the nobility and their
> > connection with Malta. But, Shelley and Starkey had died before June
> > 1611, so these two knights could not be the "English man" mentioned in
> > George Sandys' account of Malta.
>
> Unless their deaths were faked too.
>
Assign it whatever probability you choose. I don't really care.
> > Andrew Wise is a possiblity, as is
> > one mysterious William Watts, a commoner and a longtime resident of
> > Malta from the early 1590's to sometime after 1610. I tend to discount
> > Andrew Wise for various reasons, but I may be wrong. I read somewhere
> > that he had taken up residence in Naples with some Italian knight, and
> > visited Malta infrequently.
>
> A Wise move?
Watts a Wise move?
>
> > I thought the writer was implying Wise was homosexual.
> > So Wise is not the likeliest person to be living at home
> > with a son or daughter. Besides, if Sandys was being entertained at
> > the home of The Grand Prior of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, I think he
> > would have made some reference to this, but again, I may be wrong.
>
> The Anglo-Bavarian langue, was supposed created in 1782 so if Sandys had
> mentioned it it would have completely blown their cover. In any event Wise
> would have been of the English Langue.
>
Are you sure? I may be wrong, but please look it up.
> > If the "English man" was indeed the still-living Christopher Marlowe
> > aka William Watts, then Sandys needed to use extra caution to keep
> > Marlowe's secret name and life out of public attention.
>
> Wise is excluded because it was hinted that he was homosexual
> but Marlowe isn't excluded for same?
>
Because Marlowe loved the Dark Lady. But, your point is a good one.
> > But, if Marlowe was the English father of Sandys' account, a father
> > with possibly a Maltese daughter, then who was the mother? Well, the
> > sonnets seem to be written from about 1593 to 1595. The last of the
> > sonnets have to do with a romantic relationship with the Dark Lady.
> > Was this Dark Lady a young, tawny-skinned Maltese woman?
> > Did a child result from the relationship?
>
> Was the child weaned on Maltese Milk?
>
Could be... maybe even on Maltese Milkshakes.
> > If it was a daughter, she would have
> > been about the age of Miranda in The Tempest. Maybe after some
> > historian writes a article about William Watts and his life on Malta,
> > I'll be proven totally wrong. Then again, maybe not.
>
> Watts on Malta?
>
No, no, no! Watts in a name?... A rose by any other name... oh never mind.
> One of the nice things about dumping Shakspere was to get a person (ANY
> PERSON) with a REAL (and believable) documented history. Marlowe doesn't
> (and will never) qualify.
...doesn't (and will never) qualify in Art Neuendorffer's mind.
>
> Art Neuendorffer
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Yogi Buchon
Check the following theory against Baker's website. If you can't see
the difference, I can't help you.
A theory about English dramatist and poet Christopher Marlowe:
1. He converted to Catholicism in 1593
after befriending Southampton.
2. He faked his death in May 1593
with Southampton and Walsingham's help.
3. He traveled through France and Italy
from June to December 1593.
4. He lived in exile on the island of Malta
from December 1593 to June 1611.
5. He worked as a merchant under the alias
"William Watts" while on Malta.
6. He wrote all of the literary work attributed to
William Shakespeare.
7. He met Thomas Lodge, Caravaggio, and George Sandys
while in exile.
8. He left Malta with George Sandys in June 1611
ending his exile there.
9. He returned to England in 1612
and lived near Canterbury until 1621.
10. He collaborated with George Sandys
but wrote no more plays after 1611.
11. He sailed to Virginia Colony with George Sandys
in July 1621.
12. He died shortly after the Indian uprising at Jamestown
on March 22, 1622.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > Thank you, Art! Richard Shelley, Oliver Starkey, and Andrew Wise? Yes,
> > > I was aware of these three members of the nobility and their
> > > connection with Malta. But, Shelley and Starkey had died before June
> > > 1611, so these two knights could not be the "English man" mentioned in
> > > George Sandys' account of Malta.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > Unless their deaths were faked too.
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Assign it whatever probability you choose. I don't really care.
That other "TEMPESTuous" Shelley had a very suspicious death:
------------------------------------------------------------------
July 8, 1822, SHELLEY (39) drowns in the boat *ARIEL*
July 18, 1822, Byron identifies body, removes heart, & BURNS THE BODY!
MARY SHELLEY carried around Shelley's heart in a silken shroud
everywhere she went for the rest of her life. Shelley's ashes were
transferred to the PROTESTANT CEMETERY in Rome in 1823:
"Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange
Percy Bysshe Shelley"
----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Andrew Wise is a possiblity, as is
> > > one mysterious William Watts, a commoner and a longtime resident of
> > > Malta from the early 1590's to sometime after 1610. I tend to discount
> > > Andrew Wise for various reasons, but I may be wrong. I read somewhere
> > > that he had taken up residence in Naples with some Italian knight, and
> > > visited Malta infrequently.
> >
> > A Wise move?
>
> Watts a Wise move?
Absolutely!
> > > I thought the writer was implying Wise was homosexual.
> > > So Wise is not the likeliest person to be living at home
> > > with a son or daughter. Besides, if Sandys was being entertained at
> > > the home of The Grand Prior of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, I think he
> > > would have made some reference to this, but again, I may be wrong.
> >
> > The Anglo-Bavarian langue, was supposed created in 1782 so if Sandys
had
> > mentioned it it would have completely blown their cover. In any event
Wise
> > would have been of the English Langue.
> >
> Are you sure? I may be wrong, but please look it up.
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://13.1911encyclopedia.org/S/ST/ST_JOHN_OF_JERUSALEM.htm
<< Omitting the Anglo-Bavarian langue, created in 1782,
the langues (in the 15th century) were eight in number.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > If the "English man" was indeed the still-living Christopher Marlowe
> > > aka William Watts, then Sandys needed to use extra caution to keep
> > > Marlowe's secret name and life out of public attention.
> >
> > Wise is excluded because it was hinted that he was homosexual
> > but Marlowe isn't excluded for same?
> >
>
> Because Marlowe loved the Dark Lady. But, your point is a good one.
Thanks. I think your Marlowe story (which you first posted here Jan.
2002) is as good as any. . .unfortunately there is little solid evidence for
any post 1593 Marlowe story and everything depends on the initial assumption
that Marlowe wrote Shakespeare. What is needed is some good evidence that
Marlowe wrote anything at all (or existed at all).
> > > But, if Marlowe was the English father of Sandys' account, a father
> > > with possibly a Maltese daughter, then who was the mother? Well, the
> > > sonnets seem to be written from about 1593 to 1595. The last of the
> > > sonnets have to do with a romantic relationship with the Dark Lady.
> > > Was this Dark Lady a young, tawny-skinned Maltese woman?
> > > Did a child result from the relationship?
> >
> > Was the child weaned on Maltese Milk?
> Could be... maybe even on Maltese Milkshakes.
Being the snob that I am I only believe in Maltese Milkshakes Peers.
> > > If it was a daughter, she would have
> > > been about the age of Miranda in The Tempest. Maybe after some
> > > historian writes a article about William Watts and his life on Malta,
> > > I'll be proven totally wrong. Then again, maybe not.
> >
> > Watts on Malta?
> No, no, no! Watts in a name?...
Whose name?
> > One of the nice things about dumping Shakspere was to get a person
(ANY
> > PERSON) with a REAL (and believable) documented history. Marlowe doesn't
> > (and will never) qualify.
>
> ...doesn't (and will never) qualify in Art Neuendorffer's mind.
Watt mind?
Art Neuendorffer
Yogi Buchon
> "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
> > ... Besides, if Sandys was being entertained at
> > the home of The Grand Prior of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, I think he
> > would have made some reference to this, but again, I may be wrong.
>
> The Anglo-Bavarian langue, was supposed created in 1782 so if Sandys had
> mentioned it it would have completely blown their cover. In any event Wise
> would have been of the English Langue.
Ouch! I am wrong, and you are absolutely right. Sorry to have doubted
you. Here is a quote:
"The word Langue, meaning "Tongue" was applied to the National groups
of Knights in the Order. The two Langues of Spain were those of Aragon
and Castile, which included Portugal. The other Langues were those of
Italy, Germany and England. The latter disappeared after the
Reformation, but survived, in name at least, in the Anglo-Bavarian
Langue, which was created in the year 1782 after the Order had erected
the Grand Priory of Poland."
*Malta of the Knights*, by Elizabeth Schermerhorn, page 29.
So, I guess Andrew Wise would have been of the "disappeared" English
Langue, or better yet, the defunct English Langue.
>
> <snip>
>
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Elizabeth Weir
Google shows I posted from boldplanet.com a total of
6 times yet Google also shows 267 instances of of
elizabe...@boldplanet.com. The difference between
6 and 267 is apparently the number of times KQJim has
spammed HLAS with his list of Baker pseuds. I feel that
I should make a pro forma protest every hundred spams
or so.
David L. Webb
elizabe...@mail.com (Elizabeth Weir) wrote:
Of course not. Nearly every post in response to one of Elizabeth
Weird's boldplanet posts, or any "higher order" followup to such a post,
will show up in the Google archive unless the author trimmed the
headers. KQKnave only accounts for 20 posts in the archive containing
the text "elizabe...@boldplanet.com."
> I feel that
> I should make a pro forma protest every hundred spams
> or so.
Evidently Elizabeth doesn't know how to use Google either -- not that
that incapacity is at all surprising. In the past, Elizabeth has
dredged up her own words from the Google archive and attributed them to
all and sundry, which is even funnier than attributing all 267 posts
containing her erstwhile e-mail address to KQKnave.
lyra
> In article <9251b822.03043...@posting.google.com>,
> Yogi Buchon writes:
>
> >
> >Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of [ridiculous bs snipped]
>
> Update 4/30/03
> Baker is back.
> New pseudonym:
>
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
>
> Notice he reversed it from
> Yogi Buchon (yogib...@yahoo.com)
>
> This allows him to defeat killfiles.
>
> Some of the more recent pseudonyms:
>
> E._K._Chambers
>
> John_the_Baker_of_Centralia
>
> Likewise, John Bede disappeared on the 24th.
> beautif...@yahoo.com last posted on the 23rd, on the
> 24th "she" appears as mountai...@RockAthens.com, in
> bakerian fashion. They both exhibit the same looney style
> that I see in baker, but even if they're not baker, they
> might as well be.
* * * * * *
I am not a man...and I shall have two email addresses if I like!
lyra
> hometown.aol.com/kqknave/index.html
>
> He also posts voluminously
> on newsgroups using many pseudonyms, some of which are:
>
> Arbella Stuart (Arbella...@my-deja.com)
I wouldn't want to call myself anything like that!
> Bacon (ba...@my-deja.com)
lyra
> KQKnave wrote in message
>
> He also had Yogi...@yahoo.com
>
> He posted the same Sandys, Malta, Marlowe material on
> 14. Jan 2002.
>
> > Some of the more recent pseudonyms:
>
> (snip)
>
> > elizabe...@mail.com (google)
> > elizabe...@boldplanet.com
>
> But oddly enough, Elizabeth Weir reprimanded Yogi in the
> thread entitled "A Not So Beautiful Mind", saying:
>
> "Really Baker, this is not very nice".
>
> I could comprehend Baker patting himself on the back, but not
> telling himself off...
>
> Not in print, at least.
Ah, then there is a certain sort of psychology
you hadn't noticed in people before!
* * * * * *
"Quinquereme of Nineveh, from distant Ophir,
rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine"
lyra
>
> Roundtable
>
> http://roundtable.iwarp.com
lyra
>KQKnave wrote in message news:<20030430145811...@mb-m29.aol.com>...
> > In article <9251b822.03043...@posting.google.com>,
> > Yogi Buchon writes:
> >
> > >
> > >Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of [ridiculous bs snipped]
> >
> > Update 4/30/03
> > Baker is back.
> > New pseudonym:
> >
> > yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon)
> >
> >
>
> Unfortunately, Jim, you're wrong. Baker's viewpoint on Marlowe is much
> different than mine.
>
> Truly,
>
> Yogi Buchon
and from mine!
lyra
KQKnave
>that incapacity is at all surprising. In the past, Elizabeth has
>dredged up her own words from the Google archive and attributed them to
>all and sundry, which is even funnier than attributing all 267 posts
>containing her erstwhile e-mail address to KQKnave.
I'm just happy I have its posts killfiled, so I never have to see its
ridiculous crap (unless somebody else quotes it....)
See my demolition of Monsarrat's RES paper!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/monsarr1.html
The Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html
Agent Jim
Roundtable
> I am not a man...and I shall have two email addresses if I like!
I have four. Na na-na! (I use two on HLAS, one on Google, one on
Mailgate. One other in other newsgroups, and one is business.)
Don't get all flustered! Surely you've been on HLAS long enough not to
care whether you're thought to be Baker or not.
It's the Shakespeare conspiracy carried over onto HLAS members.
For some, it's a perverted desire to have Baker back, for others
"fear" that he is back, disguised. And for others, it's just plain
boredom.
Frankly, I don't give a damn, either way, whether Yogi Bear is Baker
or not.
> > Arbella Stuart (Arbella...@my-deja.com)
>
> I wouldn't want to call myself anything like that!
Ar-A-bella Stuart sounds rather nice, on the other hand - very cloak and
dagger romance tale.
Roundtable
BCD
"Roundtable" <lancelo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd6ab3a4.0305...@posting.google.com...
>
> > > Arbella Stuart (Arbella...@my-deja.com)
> [...]
> Ar-A-bella Stuart sounds rather nice, on the other hand - very cloak and
> dagger romance tale.
***On the other hand, Arbel[l]a Stuart does manage to take in Alexander the
Great, Darius, the Tudors, and the Stuarts all in one fell swoop. Issus
hard to beat that.
Best Wishes,
--BCD
Web Site: http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor
Visit unknown Los Angeles: http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor/socal1.html
Robert Stonehouse
wrote:
...
> "Quinquereme of Nineveh, from distant Ophir,
> rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine"
Nineveh is not a port - well inland. A quinquereme was not a cargo
ship but a warship. To get from Ophir to Palestine before the Suez
Canal, you would have had a long row.
Art Neuendorffer
> ...
> > "Quinquereme of Nineveh, from distant Ophir,
> > rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine"
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.uk> wrote
> Nineveh is not a port - well inland.
On the Tigris! Maybe the left in a flood:
--------------------------------------------
http://www.crystalinks.com/nineveh.html
<< A famous oracle had been given that "Nineveh should never be taken until
the river became its enemy." After a three month siege, "rain fell in such
abundance that the waters of the Tigris inundated part of the city and
overturned one of its walls for a distance of twenty stades.
Then the King, convinced that the oracle was accomplished and despairing of
any means of escape, to avoid falling alive into the enemy's hands
constructed in his palace an immense funeral pyre, placed on it his gold and
silver and his royal robes, and then, shutting himself up with his wives and
eunuchs in a chamber formed in the midst of the pile, disappeared in the
flames.>>
(Perhaps it was a MOAB bunker buster.)
--------------------------------------------
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.uk> wrote
> A quinquereme was not a cargo ship but a warship.
More of an anachronism actually:
-------------------------------------------------------
1) Two hundred years after its capture, Xenophon's Ten Thousand marched over
the mounds that had been Nineveh, and never suspected that these were the
site of the ancient metropolis that had ruled half the world. Not a stone
remained visible of all the temples with which Assyria's pious warriors had
sought to beautify their greatest capital. Even Ashur, the everlasting god,
was dead.
2) The quinquereme or "five", Lat. penteres, represented a major advance
over the trireme. Dionysius I, a tyrant of Syracuse in Sicily, is credited
with its invention along with that of the oar system that made it possible
(Casson, Ships 78). Previously, as in triremes, each oar was rowed by one
man. Dionysius conceived oars rowed by two or more men. This allowed the
construction of "fours," "fives," and higher rated ships, even though the
maximum workable number of oar levels was three. A quinquereme could have
three levels of oars, the top two possessing oars rowed by two men each, and
the bottom by one. Alternatively, it could have two levels, the top rowed by
three men to an oar, the bottom by two. A third option is a single level of
oars, each oar worked by five men. It is this third arrangement that
benefited the Romans. Each individual oar on a galley must be worked by at
least one trained rower, so that it does not foul the other oars. The
Romans, having almost no naval experience, would be faced with a severe
shortage of trained crews, considering that a standard Carthaginian "five"
on the 2-2-1 system needed 160 skilled rowers, and the Roman fleet was to
consist of 100 "fives," the total number of trained oarsmen coming out to be
16,000. But with the one level five, only 5,400 trained men were required.
Of course, 21,600 other men were also needed to row, but they would have
been much easier to acquire (Casson, ibid. 84). Polybius tells the story of
a Punic quinquereme, beached on a shore in Italy, coming into the hands of
the Romans, and giving them a model on which to base their fleet (Rodgers,
Greek 270). However, in light of the above case, this seems unlikely.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.uk> wrote
> To get from Ophir to Palestine before the Suez
> Canal, you would have had a long row.
Ergo the "distant"
-------------------------------------------------------
Ophir, in the Bible, designates a people and a country.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11259b.htm
<<The people, for whom a Semitic descent is claimed, is mentioned in Gen.,
x, 29, with the other "sons of Jectan", whose dwelling "was from Messa as we
go on as far as Sehar, a mountain in the east" (Gen., x, 30).
The place Ophir was that from which the Bible represents Solomon's fleet
bringing gold, silver, thyine (probably santal) wood, precious stones,
ivory, apes, and peacocks (III Kings, ix, 26-28; x, 11, 22; II Par., viii,
17-18; ix, 10). Its location has been sought where the articles mentioned
are native productions; still, while Ophir is repeatedly spoken of as a
gold-producing region (Job, xxii, 24; xxviii, 16; Ps. xliv, 10; Is., xiii,
12), it does not follow that the other articles came from there; whether
they were natural products, or only bought and sold there, or even purchased
by the merchantmen at intervening ports, cannot be gathered from the text,
as it states merely that they were fetched to Asiongaber. The Bible does not
give the geographical position of Ophir; it only says that the voyage out
from Asiongaber and back lasted three years (III Kings, x, 22). Scholars
have been guided in their several identifications of the site by the
importance they attach to this or that particular indication in the sacred
text-especially the products brought to Solomon-also by resemblances, real
or fanciful, between the Hebrew names of Ophir and of the articles mentioned
in connexion therewith and names used in various countries and languages.
The Greek translators of the Bible, by rendering the Hebrew Ophir into
Sophir, the Coptic name for India, would locate the Biblical El Dorado in
India, according to some in the land of the Abhira, east of the delta of the
Indus, according to others, on the coast of Malabar or at Ceylon, and
according to others still in the Malay Peninsula. The opinion that it was
situated on the southern or south-eastern coast of Arabia has many
advocates, who contend from the text of Gen., x, 29, 30, that Ophir must be
located between Saba and Hevilath. Another opinion says it was not in Asia,
but either on the south-eastern coast of Africa (Sofala) or inland in
Mashonaland.
--------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
lyra
> > lyra wrote:
> > ...
> > > "Quinquereme of Nineveh, from distant Ophir,
> > > rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine"
Thanks Art and Robert for all the information.
I think the author (Masefield) once replied to a criticism
of his "facts", by declaring the owners of the ship to have been
a consortium
of businessmen from Nineveh, who could charter a ship anywhere
they pleased! A clever reply! But it is interesting how "facts"
often don't concern the creative person, who writes whatever they
like or believe.
lyra
>
> Robert Stonehouse wrote
>
> > Nineveh is not a port - well inland.
>
> On the Tigris! Maybe the left in a flood:
> http://www.crystalinks.com/nineveh.html
>
> << A famous oracle had been given that "Nineveh should never be taken until
> the river became its enemy." After a three month siege, "rain fell in such
> abundance that the waters of the Tigris inundated part of the city and
> overturned one of its walls for a distance of twenty stades.
>
> Then the King, convinced that the oracle was accomplished and despairing of
> any means of escape, to avoid falling alive into the enemy's hands
> constructed in his palace an immense funeral pyre, placed on it his gold and
> silver and his royal robes, and then, shutting himself up with his wives and
> eunuchs in a chamber formed in the midst of the pile, disappeared in the
> flames.>>
>
> (Perhaps it was a MOAB bunker buster.)
> Robert Stonehouse wrote
>
> > A quinquereme was not a cargo ship but a warship.
> More of an anachronism actually:
<snip of a lot of interesting stuff>
> Robert Stonehouse wrote
>
> > To get from Ophir to Palestine before the Suez
> > Canal, you would have had a long row.
>
> Ergo the "distant"
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Ophir, in the Bible, designates a people and a country.
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11259b.htm
>
<snip of a lot of interesting stuff>
Yogi Buchon
> >> I don't know whether this guy is Baker or not, but he certainly matches
> >> Baker's incredible stupidity.
Gosh! So insulting? If you were a substitute teacher, I think I'd have
to send you to the principal's office. In any case, I'd rather be
stupid than rude and heartless. I pity you, Bob.
> >>
> >> --Bob G.
> >>
> >
> >Well, Bob, I'm glad you mentioned Strachey. Is it really such a good
> >source for The Tempest, or are you just parroting what you've read
> >somewhere?
>
> It's really such a good source. The main reason is that Strachey wrote just
> before the first mention of a performance of Shakespeare's play--about a
> shipwreck that was very recent and much discussed at the time. If the Tempest
> was written in 1611 or so, and all sane dating schemes indicate that it would
> have been, it is hard to believe that it would have mentioned a shipwreck, and
> ensuing events on an island, WITHOUT reference to Strachey's shipwreck.
I think scholars want everyone to believe it's a good source when
actually it is not. Strachey's account of a shipwreck on Bermuda in
1609 wasn't published until after Shakespeare's death in 1616. So,
Shakespeare "must have" read it manuscript? Where's the evidence,
other than wishful thinking and vague parallels which Strachey may
have mimicked from St. Paul's account of his shipwreck in the Bible?
You say "much discussed at the time"?--where's the evidence? The
location of the play is not the New World or Bermuda, it's the
Mediterranean. If you choose to believe otherwise go right ahead, but
you are wrong. Here's what the highly respected Northrop Frye wrote in
his introduction to the *The Tempest* in the Pelican Shakespeare:
"The scene of the play, an island somewhere between Tunis and Naples,
suggests the journey of Aeneas from Carthage to Rome. Gonzalo's
identification of Tunis and Carthage, and the otherwise tedious
business about 'Widow Dido' in the second act, seems almost to be
emphasizing the parallel. Like *The Tempest*, the *Aeneid* begins with
a terrible storm and goes on to tell a story of wanderings in which a
banquet with harpies figures prominently"
"Echoes from the shipwreck of St. Paul (Ariel's phrase 'Not a hair
perished" recalls Acts xxvii, 34)... are appropriate enough in such a
play."
"It is a little puzzling why New World imagery should be so prominent
in *The Tempest*, which really has nothing to do with the New World,
beyond Ariel's reference to the 'still-vexed Bermoothes' and a
general, if vague, resemblance between the relation of Caliban to the
other characters and that of the American Indians to the colonizers
and drunken sailors who came to exterminate and enslave them."
And if Northrop Frye doesn't convince you it's a Mediterranean
setting, how about Stephen Greenblatt or Horace Howard Furness?
>
> >Here's a link which defends the idea that St. Paul's short
> >account of his shipwreck on Malta has more similarities with The
> >Tempest than Strachey's much longer story of a shipwreck.
>
> I must be missing something because all Moore's trivial attempt to block sanity
> does is show that other writers whose subject was a shipwreck wrote about St.
> Elmo's fire. It brings in St. Paul, too, but pretty irrelevantly, since about
> all that the Paul adventure has in common with the Tempest adventure is the
> wreck of a ship. ...
Quite right, Bob, I think you missed these words from the linked
website above:
----------
"Kenneth Muir's The Sources of Shakespeare's Plays (1978) thinks the
Bermuda pamphlets are probable sources for The Tempest, adding:
The extent of the verbal echoes of [the Bermuda] pamphlets has,
I think, been exaggerated. There is hardly a shipwreck in history
or fiction which does not mention splitting, in which the ship
is not lightened of its cargo, in which the passengers do not give
themselves up for lost, in which north winds are not sharp, and
in which no one gets to shore by clinging to wreckage. (280)
Not exactly ringing endorsements.
Muir continues by remarking that Strachey's account is influenced by
St. Paul's shipwreck and by Erasmus' colloquy. St. Paul's account of
his wreck at Malta, Acts of the Apostles 27-28:12, takes up less than
two pages in either the Geneva or King James Bible, in contrast to the
114 pages of the two Bermuda pamphlets. In those two pages we find the
following parallels to The Tempest:
1. A voyage to Italy within the Mediterranean.
2. Discord among the participants; the crew against the passengers.
3. The ship driven by a 'tempest'.
4. Loss of hope.
5. An angel visits the ship; compare to Ariel.
6. Desperate maneuvers to avoid the lee shore of an unknown island.
7. Detailed description of nautical techniques.
8. The ship runs aground and splits.
9. Passengers and crew swim ashore on loose or broken timbers;
compare to Stephano coming ashore on a butt of sack.
10. The island has barbarous inhabitants; compare to Caliban.
11. Supernatural involvement.
12. A seeming miracle; St. Paul immune to snakebite.
13. A safe trip to Italy after a stay on the island.
----------
And, here's yet another parallel, parallel #14, between *The Tempest*
and St. Paul's account of Malta in Acts of the New Testament:
14. "He ordered those who could swim to throw themselves overboard
first and make for land, and the rest on planks or on pieces of the
ship. And so it was that all escaped to land. After we had escaped, we
then learned that the island was called Malta. And the natives showed
us unusual kindness, for they kindled a fire and welcomed us all,
because it had begun to rain and was cold. Paul had gathered a bundle
of sticks and put them on the fire..." Acts 27.43-28.3
"Enter Caliban with a burden of wood." TMP 2.2.1
"Work not so hard! I would the lightning had
Burnt up those logs that you are enjoined to pile" TMP 3.1.16-17
> ... Moore skips the strange coincidence of the Strachey account's
> coming just before we first here about an obviously late play of Shakespeare's
> and ignores all the points brought up by David Kathman (albeit later) and his
> and Terry Ross's site.
Again, Strachey's account of the Bermuda shipwreck wasn't published
until years after 1611. Wishful thinking about Shakespeare reading a
manuscript won't do. Wishful thinking about placing the setting of
*The Tempest* in the Atlantic won't do. And what about the coincidence
of George Sandys arrival on Malta by way of a tempest in June of 1611?
The shipreck scene in the play could suggest the island of Malta by
alluding to St.Paul's shipwreck, and what follows in the play with
Ferdinand could suggest Sandys' arrival onto Malta. At least to me it
could and does.
>
> --Bob G.
Oh, yes, and didn't it start to rain on the island in act-2, scene-2
of *The Tempest* just like it did in that quote from Paul's account on
Malta above? You know, "that foul bombard that would shed his liquor"?
Well, I guess that's parallel #15, huh?
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
P.S. And what is St. Elmo's fire anyway? Is it really mentioned or
suggested in *The Tempest*? Here's a link:
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000622.html
And what about Fort St. Elmo on the island of Malta? Was it around in
1611 when *The Tempest* was written?
Art Neuendorffer
> > It's really such a good source. The main reason is that Strachey wrote
just
> > before the first mention of a performance of Shakespeare's play--about a
> > shipwreck that was very recent and much discussed at the time. If the
Tempest
> > was written in 1611 or so, and all sane dating schemes indicate that it
would
> > have been, it is hard to believe that it would have mentioned a
shipwreck, and
> > ensuing events on an island, WITHOUT reference to Strachey's shipwreck.
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
New World imagery: SETEBOS
---------------------------------------------------------------
CALIBAN I must obey: his art is of such power,
It would control my dam's god, SETEBOS,
and make a vassal of him.
CALIBAN O SETEBOS, these be brave spirits indeed!
How fine my master is! I am afraid
He will chastise me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
<<SETEBOS was a god worshiped by the Patagonians of southern South
America. He was first mentioned by Ferdinand Magellan, whose expedition
in 1519-1522 was the first to circumnavigate the world. Setebos then
appeared in English in a book called _History of Travel_ by Robert Eden
published in 1577.>> -- Isaac Asimov's _Guide to Shakespeare_
<<Antonio Pigafetta (sliced pig?) One of few men to survive and complete
the first circumnavigation of the globe. He was an ardent admirer of
Magellan. His journal about the famous journey was later published.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mariner.org/age/magellan.html
<<Snubbed by the Portuguese king, Magellan easily convinced
the teenaged Spanish king, Charles I (also known as the Holy
Roman emperor Charles V) that at least some of the Spice
Island lay in the Spanish half of the undiscovered world.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gutman: What do you know about the Order of the Hospital of St. John
of Jerusalem, later called the Knights of Rhodes and other things?
Spade: Not much -- only what I remember from history in school
--Crusaders or something."
Gutman: Very good. Now you don't remember that Suleiman
the Magnificent chased them out of Rhodes in 1523?
Spade: No.
Gutman: Well, sir, he did, and they settled in Crete. And they
stayed there for seven years, until 1530 when they persuaded
the Emperor Charles V to give them Malta, Gozo, and Tripoli.
Sam: Yes.
Gutman: Yes, sir, but with conditions: they were to pay the Emperor
each year the tribute of one FALCON in acknowledgement that Malta was
still under Spain, and if they ever left the island it was to revert
to Spain. Understand? He was giving it to them, but not unless they
used it, and they couldn't give or sell it to anybody else.
Spade: Yes.
Gutman: Have you any conception of the extreme,
the immeasurable wealth of the Order at that time?
Spade: If I remember, they were prettey well fixed.
Gutman: Pretty well, sir, is putting it mildly. They were rolling in
wealth, sir. You've no idea. None of us has any idea. For Years they
had preyed on the Saracens, had taken nobody knows what spoils of gems,
precious metals, silks, ivories--the cream of the cream of the East.
That is history, sir. We all know that the Holy Wars to them, as to the
Templars, were largely a matter of loot. Well, now, the Emperor Charles
has given them Malta, and all the rent he asks is one insignificant bird
per annum, just as a matter of form. What could be more natural than for
some way of expressing their gratitude? Well, sir, that's exactly what
they did, and they hit on the happy thought of sending Charles for the
first year's tribute, not an insignificant live bird, but a glorious
golden FALCON encrusted from head to foot with the finest jewels
in their coffers. And remember , sir, they had fine ones, the finest
out of Asia. Well, sir, what do you think of that?
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >Here's a link which defends the idea that St. Paul's short
> > >account of his shipwreck on Malta has more similarities with
> > >The Tempest than Strachey's much longer story of a shipwreck.
> Bob Grumman <Bob_m...@newsguy.com> wrote
> > I must be missing something because all Moore's trivial attempt to block
> > sanity does is show that other writers whose subject was a shipwreck
> > wrote about St.Elmo's fire.
> Oh, yes, and didn't it start to rain on the island in act-2, scene-2
> of *The Tempest* just like it did in that quote from Paul's account on
> Malta above? You know, "that foul bombard that would shed his liquor"?
> Well, I guess that's parallel #15, huh?
>
> Truly, Yogi Buchon
>
> P.S. And what is St. Elmo's fire anyway? Is it really mentioned
> or suggested in *The Tempest*? Here's a link:
>
> http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000622.html
>
> And what about Fort St. Elmo on the island of Malta?
> Was it around in1611 when *The Tempest* was written?
>
> http://www.castlesandforts.co.uk/ftstelmo/ft_st_elmo.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote :
> Here is an excerpt from the 1615 edition of
> *A relation of a journey begun An: Dom: 1610* by George Sandys.
> --------------------
> "... We past by the South side of *Sicilia*, and left *Malta* on the
> left hand; when out of hope to be set ashore (for it was the purpose
> of our Merchant before he met with these consorts, to have touched at
> Messina) and sadded with the apprehension of so tedious a voyage, on
> the sodaine the wind came about, and blowing fiercely West and by
> North, did all the night following exercise his fury; our ships rather
> losing then gaining of their way, and exceedingly tossed, the weather
> not likely to alter, they resolved to put in to *Malta*. So on the
> second of June being Sunday, we entred the haven that lies
> on the East side of the Citie of *Valetta*,
------------------------------------------------------------
St. Elmo's Day: June 2
-------------------------------------------------------------
Venus Transits:
ascending node descending node
---------------- ------------------
4 June 1518 2 June 1526
6 Dec 1631 4 Dec 1639 (first observed!?)
6 June 1761 3 June 1769
------------------------------------------------------------
3 June 1769 => Balsamo meets with Adam Weishaupt & Casanova
Sep 1769 => *Shakespeare Jubilee of Stratford*
9 Nov 1769 => Mercury TRANSIT
--------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Yogi Buchon
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> > And if Northrop Frye doesn't convince you it's a Mediterranean
> > setting, how about Stephen Greenblatt or Horace Howard Furness?
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> New World imagery: SETEBOS
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> CALIBAN I must obey: his art is of such power,
> It would control my dam's god, SETEBOS,
> and make a vassal of him.
>
> CALIBAN O SETEBOS, these be brave spirits indeed!
> How fine my master is! I am afraid
> He will chastise me.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> <<SETEBOS was a god worshiped by the Patagonians of southern South
> America. He was first mentioned by Ferdinand Magellan, whose expedition
> in 1519-1522 was the first to circumnavigate the world. Setebos then
> appeared in English in a book called _History of Travel_ by Robert Eden
> published in 1577.>> -- Isaac Asimov's _Guide to Shakespeare_
>
Once again, Art, very good point! I have to adjust my thinking about
New World echoes within *The Tempest*, but I'm not ready to accept
that the shipwreck scene was influenced by Strachey's written account.
I had tended to agree with Frye that the New World echoes in the play
are mysterious, but now, with the help of your Setebos observation, I
have a hypothesis about why they may have been put in there. Edwin
Sandys was an elder brother of George Sandys and was associated with
the Virginia Company for many years. There is a "Sandys Parish" named
after him in Bermuda. George Sandys, who attended Corpus Christi
college a few years after Marlowe, was also associated with the
Virginia Company. So, if George Sandys met Marlowe in June 1611 on
Malta, I suppose it is likely they talked about the New World and this
may have given rise to New World echoes in *The Tempest*. Who knows,
they may have even talked about the Bermuda shipwreck of 1609!!
> >
> > [snip]
Bingo! Good work! The feast day of St. Elmo is June 2. So, George
Sandys arrives at Fort St. Elmo on St. Elmo's day! Well, I guess that
calls for a little St. Elmo's fire in the play. Thanks Art!
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Art Neuendorffer
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > New World imagery: SETEBOS
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > CALIBAN I must obey: his art is of such power,
> > It would control my dam's god, SETEBOS,
> > and make a vassal of him.
> >
> > CALIBAN O SETEBOS, these be brave spirits indeed!
> > How fine my master is! I am afraid
> > He will chastise me.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > <<SETEBOS was a god worshiped by the Patagonians of southern South
> > America. He was first mentioned by Ferdinand Magellan, whose expedition
> > in 1519-1522 was the first to circumnavigate the world. Setebos then
> > appeared in English in a book called _History of Travel_ by Robert Eden
> > published in 1577.>> -- Isaac Asimov's _Guide to Shakespeare_
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Once again, Art, very good point! I have to adjust my thinking about
> New World echoes within *The Tempest*, but I'm not ready to accept
> that the shipwreck scene was influenced by Strachey's written account.
> I had tended to agree with Frye that the New World echoes in the play
> are mysterious, but now, with the help of your Setebos observation, I
> have a hypothesis about why they may have been put in there.
And I thank you very much for all the St.Paul/Malta/Tempest connections.
(Since there is documented evidence that the de Veres actually belonged to
the Knights of St. John/Malta and that Edward corresponded with Richard
Shelley.)
---------------------------------------------
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> ----------
> And, here's yet another parallel, parallel #14, between *The Tempest*
> and St. Paul's account of Malta in Acts of the New Testament:
> 14. "He ordered those who could swim to throw themselves overboard
> first and make for land, and the rest on planks or on pieces of the
> ship. And so it was that all escaped to land. After we had escaped, we
> then learned that the island was called Malta. And the natives showed
> us unusual kindness, for they kindled a fire and welcomed us all,
> because it had begun to rain and was cold. Paul had gathered
> a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire..." Acts 27.43-28.3
> "Enter Caliban with a burden of wood." TMP 2.2.1
>
> "Work not so hard! I would the lightning had
> Burnt up those logs that you are enjoined to pile" TMP 3.1.16-17
----------------------------------------------
http://www.humilitypress.org/a_little_room/prosperos_hen.htm
<< Prospero's Hen by Joseph L. Eldredge
The first time The Tempest was linked to the Vineyard and Cuttyhunk was in
1902 when Rev. Edward Everett Hale discovered similarities between phrases
and word patterns in two journals kept on Bartholomew Gosnold's 1602 voyage
and certain lines in the Shakespeare drama. He described his findings in a
talk to the American Antiquarian Society in Worcester. His interesting
revelations seemed to create no waves.
Twenty years later, Marshall Shepard, soon to be the first president of
the new Dukes County Historical Society, came upon Hale's findings. In a
talk to the Daughters of the American Revolution in Edgartown, he outlined
what he called the "Gosnold-Shakespeare Theory". His talk was mentioned in
the Vineyard Gazette, where it was read by Edna Coffin of Edgartown, then a
student at Radcliffe College.
She wrote to Shepard requesting more information, stating that she hoped
to write a paper on the subject. In his response, Shepard suggested, "It
might be interesting to recall the relationship between the Gosnold and
Bacon families, for if Shakespeare was in reality Bacon, no effort of the
imagination is needed to picture Gosnold relating his New World experiences
to his distinguished kinsman and author of The Tempest. It would be well to
examine Dr. Hale's discovery in the light of the evidence of the Baconian
theory."
Miss Coffin's paper, "Martha's Vineyard, the setting for Shakespeare's
Play, The Tempest" was praised by her professor as "touched with the wand of
fancy; the possibilities are interesting - the probabilities strong."
Emboldened, she sent a copy to Prof. George Lyman Kittredge of Harvard, the
eminent Shakespearean authority, asking for his opinion. The learned
professor responded: "A very good joke. I should imagine that it might be a
piece of newspaper humor." The "joke" lay fallow until 1940 when Shepard,
now president of the new Society, published Our Enchanted Island, quoting
lines in The Tempest that were very similar to those in Gosnold's journal,
written by Brereton and Archer.1
Today, there is renewed interest in Shakespeare. It is time for another
look at the connections our islands have to The Tempest. This time, however,
Bacon, like Marlowe and Derby, has been forgotten, replaced by Edward de
Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, now said to be the real Shakespeare.2
In his libretto for Albert Eisenstadt's fine photographic essay, Martha's
Vineyard3 Henry Hough ruminated on the identity of Prospero's island in
Shakespeare's play, The Tempest. Hough, famed editor of the Vineyard
Gazette, recalled naturalist Winthrop Packard's suggestion that pinkletinks
(spring peepers) could have been Ariel; the heath hen, Caliban. To prove it
to yourself, find a half-dozen naturalist passages describing Prospero's
island in the play, take them out with you on any island meadow and read
them aloud (with or without heath hens!).
It was Edward Everett Hale4 (said Mr. Hough) who thought Shakespeare must
have met sailors and gentlemen adventurers back from Gosnold's voyage in
1602 to hear of "mussels-pig-nuts-and scamels". Hough also included Packard'
s description of his own experience in the spring of 1912 on the Vineyard
Plain:
Goblins cackled in weird laughter, whining and whimpering among the scrub
oaks clad in brown, wearing black horns that stuck stiffly above their heads
and with bags of bad dreams about their necks. Two of these bags, orange
colored and round as oranges, hung about the neck of each creature, and now
they danced in unholy glee before one another, now they sailed into the air
on their broomsticks, and always mingled their strange actions with strange
cries.
As a person who read almost everything, Henry Hough certainly knew of a
book entitled Bartholomew Gosnold: Discoverer and Planter by his friend and
fellow Vineyarder, Warner Gookin, published in cooperation with what was
then Duke's County Historical Society.5 In the early 1950's a retired
clergyman, Warner Gookin, spent his last years researching the life of
Bartholomew Gosnold whom he wanted to rescue from obscurity.6 To those
knowledgeable in Island history, this name will be familiar. Others, who may
have wondered why the Island of Cuttyhunk is also called the Town of
Gosnold, will find in Gookin's book welcome revelations, intrigue, and
enchanting speculation. Gosnold's youth in his family seat at Otley Hall in
Suffolk was filled with stories of the great voyages of discovery by men
like Giovanni Verrazano and Sir Humphrey Gilbert. He read the writings of
the Reverend Richard Hakluyt,7 who was known to his family. Gosnold was
connected through his mother to Sir Francis Bacon and on his father's side
to Bartholomew Gilbert, Gosnold's co-captain in the "discovery" of Martha's
Vineyard.
Bartholomew Gosnold married into a family with even more impressive
connections, an essential ingredient for success in the totalitarian time of
Queen Elizabeth. Martha, his mother-in-law, for whom his first child was
named, was a cousin of Sir Thomas Smythe, founder of the East India Company
and a leader of the Virginia Company. Smythe was at the time England's
foremost world trader. Bartholomew's bride, Mary Golding, was related in two
separate generations to the de Veres, the 16th and 17th Earls of Oxford. At
Cambridge together, Gosnold and Henry Wriothesley (believed to have been
pronounced "Risley"), the Third Earl of Southampton, also read law at the
Middle Temple. In 1597 he joined the Earls of Essex and Southampton on an
expedition to raid the Azores. But his dream was to found an English colony
in America. It was Southampton, perhaps with encouragement and help from the
Queen, and later himself a member of the Virginia Company, who financed
Gosnold's 1602 voyage in the ship Concord.
Werner Gookin's treatise acquaints us first with Gosnold and his extended
family, then with the climate of discovery surrounding him. Two of the
voyage's "gentlemen adventurers", Gabriel Archer and John Brereton, kept
detailed accounts. They relate that Gosnold and Gilbert were seeking a place
called "Norumbega", the broad sound, harbor, and river Verrazano had sailed
into and named eighty years earlier. By recorded latitude Norumbega was
where Newport is today. Gosnold, sailing down the coast from the north, got
only as far as our islands and Buzzard's Bay.
Vineyard historian Gookin took on the task of clearing up misconceptions
about Gosnold's voyage in 1602. One of these was that the island Gosnold
named "Martha's Vineyard" was what we now call "Noman's". A sailor himself,
Gookin deciphered landlubberly readings of these contemporary accounts and
by careful induction was able to lead us day by day, league by league, from
Concord's first landfall on the upper arm of the Cape. Going ashore in what
is today's Barnstable Harbor, Gosnold and others climbed Shoot-Flying Hill
from where they saw Vineyard and Nantucket sounds. Meanwhile, back on the
Concord the crew found their lines (or nets) had rewarded them with "a great
store of Cod-fish, for which we...called it Cape Cod," wrote Archer.
Gookin's research tracked their route rounding the end of the Cape,
circling Nantucket, and back up through Muskeget Channel (between Nantucket
and Martha's Vineyard). They anchored off Chappaquiddick, again sending a
party ashore while an even greater (and much better) "store" of Cod was
hauled aboard. It was on that day, May 22nd, 1602, Gosnold christened our
Island "Martha's Vineyard." The next day they sailed on down the Sound past
East Chop and West Chop to Lambert's Cove. Here they went ashore and, in
Gookin's words, for two days "ambled and gamboled, after the manner of
sailors ashore." They met, again as recorded by Archer: "thirteen
Savages....[who] brought Tobacco, Deere skins and some sodden fish."
From there they headed southwest, passing Menemsha Bight and Gay Head
which they called "Dover Cliffs." Then on to Cuttyhunk where, on a small
island in a fresh-water pond, they established a base from which to explore.
Thanks to narrators Brereton and Archer we get a good picture of the flora,
fauna, and topography of "these fragile outposts". Even more challenging is
the guarded but polite reception they were given by the locals. It is
unfortunate (yet a blessing for the world of letters) that Gosnold took
little interest in the language or subtle economy of their hosts.
The original plan had been to leave Gosnold and his party of gentlemen
adventurers to start a colony. Gilbert was to return for more supplies. But
after it was learned that Gilbert had already stinted on the original
provisions, all hands decided to return to England with him. Gookin's
opinion of Gilbert based on this suggests that Gosnold had made a wise
decision. However, had Gosnold learned more of the native economy, as did
the Pilgrims at "Plimoth Plantation" a few years later he might have tried
to stick it out. Of course Tempest's pungent lines might then have been
enriched by reports of some other island.8
After less than a month on Cuttyhunk (with some potting about in Buzzard's
Bay) the small band left for England leaving for the future "County of Dukes
County" two names: "Martha" and "Elizabeth". Gookin assures us that the
first was the name of Gosnold's infant daughter, who died one year later in
1603: the second was the name of his sister Elizabeth, who married a distant
relative of Anne Boleyn. Queen Elizabeth herself might have been the one so
honored, but being already the nominal owner of all "Virginia", it may not
have been flattering to add a tiny string of islands to her necklace.
Back to Henry Beetle Hough. His image of the sailor's recounting their
adventures in London (or Portsmouth) taverns was not far off. The Third Earl
of Southampton was in the Tower awaiting execution for his part in the
"Essex Rebellion"; Essex had already been shortened by a head. Sir Walter
Ralegh, who with some reason thought he owned the New World, tried to
confiscate Gosnold's cargo of cedar and sassafras.9 Of all of the resources
available to Gosnold, the most likely was his "relative" the Earl of Oxford,
one of the only persons with sufficient clout to oppose Ralegh. It is also
possible that Elizabeth's interest in the New World, as expressed through
Southampton's participation, took precedence over Sir Walter's waning
influence. Oxford and Gosnold may even have met in the elegant rooms of
Otley Hall.10 In any event. the remarkable accounts of the voyage would not
have been lost on a courtier, poet, and adventurer, whose plays and poems
(properly understood) are a splendid rotogravure of the personalities and
events of the late sixteenth century.
In addition to lending his own ship, Edward Bonaventure, to exploration,
Oxford had already financed a voyage to America, dropping three thousand
pounds (they were ducats in Merchant of Venice) in a venture that brought
back only iron pyrites (fool's gold). He also fitted out and manned his ship
as part of England's defense against the Spanish Armada. Because of his
noble hobby of writing plays, Oxford would have picked up on more than Henry
Hough's heath hen. In typical British style, Gosnold's sailors were not
interested in cutting the trees and loading up the ship with its return
cargo. The job fell to the customary group of gentlemen adventurers. In The
Tempest it is Prince Ferdinand that dutifully stacks logs to prove his love
for lovely Miranda. Brereton and Archer both tell us of the clear water,
wild fruits, and tall cedars, all of which found their way into the lines of
the play. At one point Ariel speaks of flying (easily and perhaps east?) to
the Bermoothes.>>
---------------------------------------------
David Kathman wrote:
<<A key question is whether the play Comedia VON Der Schonen Sidea
by Jakob Ayrer (1543-1605) was a source for The Tempest, or whether
The Tempest was a source for Ayrer's Comedia Von Der Schonen Sidea.
From what I can see, the similarities between the two plays
are mostly motifs that can be found in folklore:
both have a bad-tempered magician-ruler,
a captive prince bearing logs,
a bewitched sword, and a happy ending.>>
---------------------------------------------
Finnegans Wake p. 250: <<Led by Lignifer,
in four hops of the happiest, ach beth cac duff, a marrer
of the sward incoronate, the few fly the farbetween!>>
---------------------------------------------
Lignifer: (Latin) one who carries wood.
---------------------------------------------
This side is (r)Hiems, Winter,
this Ver(e), the Spring;
WINTER.
When icicles hang by the wall
And Dick the SHEPHERD blows his NAIL
And Tom bears LOGS into the hall
And milk comes frozen home in pail,
When blood is nipp'd and ways be foul,
Then nightly sings the staring owl, Tu-whit;
Tu-who, a merry note,
While GREASY JOAN doth keel {stir} the pot.
--------------------------------------------------
[The Tempest 3.1]
Enter FERDINAND (bearing a Log.)
Fer. There be some Sports are painfull; & their labor
Delight in them set off: Some kindes of basenesse
Are nobly vndergon; and most poore matters
Point to rich ends: this my meane Taske
Would be as heauy to me, as odious, but
The Mistris which I sERVE, QUICKENS what's dead,
And makes my labours, pleasures: O She is
Ten times more gentle, then her Father's crabbed;
And he's compos'd of harshnesse. I must remoue
Some thousands of these Logs, and pile them vp,
Vpon a sore iniunction;
Mir. Alas, now pray you and Prospero.
Worke not so hard: I would the LIGHTNING had
Burnt vp those Logs that you are enioynd to pile:
Pray set it downe, and rest you: when this burnes
'Twill weepe for hauing wearied you: my Father
Is hard at study; pray now rest your selfe,
. . .
Fer. But you, O you,
So perfect, and so peetlesse, are created
Of EVERiE Creatures best.
Mir. I do not know
One of my sexe; no womans face remember,
Saue from my GLASSE, mine owne:
Fer. I am, in my condition
A Prince (Miranda) I do thinke a King
(I would not so) and would no more endure
This wodden slauerie, then to suffer
The flesh-FLIE blow my mouth: heare my soule speake.
The VERiE instant that I saw you, did
My heart FLIE to your seruice, there resides
To make me slaue to it, and for your sake
Am I this patient Logge-man.
---------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Yogi Buchon
>
I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholic nobles once belonged to The
Knights of Malta, and even corresponded with Richard Shelley. But, I
find it hard to dispute the standard dating of the plays. Also, the
extent of verbal and stylistic parallels across Marlowe, Shakespeare,
and Sandys is just too persuasive for me. And, for still other
reasons, I remain a Marlovian.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Art Neuendorffer
> > And I thank you very much for all the St.Paul/Malta/Tempest
connections.
> >
> > (Since there is documented evidence that the de Veres actually belonged
to
> > the Knights of St. John/Malta and that Edward corresponded with Richard
> > Shelley.)
"Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholic nobles once belonged to The
> Knights of Malta, and even corresponded with Richard Shelley. But,
> I find it hard to dispute the standard dating of the plays.
There you go again with your double standard!
When Marlowe 'died' in 1593 he was free to go on to write Shakespeare but
when a Knight of St. John dies on St. John's day, 1604, then he must have be
dead.
> Also, the extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
> across Marlowe, Shakespeare,
> and Sandys is just too persuasive for me.
The extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
across Bacon, Shakespeare,
and Cervantes is pretty impressive as well.
> And, for still other reasons, I remain a Marlovian.
I have no objection with people desiring to be Stratfordians, Marlovians,
Baconians or Oxfordians; I just think it would be nice if they'd provide
specifics whenever possible.
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
"Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
(aneuendor...@comicass.nut) wrote:
[...]
> "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholic nobles once belonged to The
> > Knights of Malta, and even corresponded with Richard Shelley. But,
> > I find it hard to dispute the standard dating of the plays.
> There you go again with your double standard!
>
> When Marlowe 'died' in 1593 he was free to go on to write Shakespeare but
> when a Knight of St. John dies on St. John's day, 1604, then he must have be
> dead.
When someone dies, whether on St. John's Day or otherwise, he/she has
a marked tendency to remain dead, Art -- but perhaps this is news to you.
> > Also, the extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
> > across Marlowe, Shakespeare,
> > and Sandys is just too persuasive for me.
> The extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
> across Bacon, Shakespeare,
> and Cervantes is pretty impressive as well.
Only to those who, like aneuendor...@comicass.nut, have read
neither Shakespeare nor Cervantes, nor for that matter ANY literature of
the period. To those unaccustomed to careful observation, all sparrows
look alike. (For one thing, Cervantes wrote in Spanish, but perhaps
that too is news to you, Art.) In any case, to
aneuendor...@comicass.nut, an impressive VERbal parallel means
nothing more than the possiblity of grepping, say, the word "stone" in
both texts; in view of the size of the datasets in question, Art could
doubtless find "impressive" VERbal parallels linking Shakespeare with
eVERyone from Cervantes to Borges, from Goethe to Grass, and from
Lomonosov to Limonov.
> > And, for still other reasons, I remain a Marlovian.
> I have no objection with [sic] people desiring to be Stratfordians, Marlovians,
> Baconians or Oxfordians; I just think it would be nice if they'd provide
> specifics whenever possible.
I couldn't agree more, Art. So SPECIFICALLY what are the "verbal and
stylistic parallels" between Shakespeare and Cervantes that are so
"impressive"? The fact that both men wrote in an Indo-European language?
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholic nobles once belonged to
> > > The Knights of Malta, and even corresponded with Richard Shelley.
> > > But, I find it hard to dispute the standard dating of the plays.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > There you go again with your double standard!
> >
> > When Marlowe 'died' in 1593 he was free to go on
> > to write Shakespeare but when a Knight of St. John
> > dies on St. John's day, 1604, then he must have be dead.
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
> When someone dies, whether on St. John's Day or otherwise, he/she has
> a marked tendency to remain dead, Art -- but perhaps this is news to you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Macool, Macool, orra whyi deed ye diie?
of a trying thirstay mournin? Sobs they sighdid at Fillagain's
chrissormiss wake, all the hoolivans of the nation, prostrated in
their consternation and their duodisimally profusive plethora of
ululation. There was plumbs and grumes and cheriffs and citherers
and raiders and cinemen too. And the all gianed in with the shout-
most shoviality. Agog and magog and the round of them agrog.
To the continuation of that celebration until Hanandhunigan's
extermination! Some in kinkin corass, more, kankan keening.
Belling him up and filling him down. He's stiff but he's steady is
Priam Olim ! 'Twas he was the dacent gaylabouring youth. Sharpen
his pillowscone, tap up his bier! E'erawhere in this whorl would ye
hear sich a din again? With their deepbrow fundigs and the dusty
fidelios. They laid him brawdawn alanglast bed. With a bockalips
of finisky fore his feet. And a barrowload of guenesis hoer his head.
-------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >
> > > Also, the extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
> > > across Marlowe, Shakespeare,
> > > and Sandys is just too persuasive for me.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > The extent of verbal and stylistic parallels
> > across Bacon, Shakespeare,
> > and Cervantes is pretty impressive as well.
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
> Only to those who, like aneuendor...@comicass.nut, have read
> neither Shakespeare nor Cervantes, nor for that matter ANY literature of
> the period. To those unaccustomed to careful observation, all sparrows
> look alike. (For one thing, Cervantes wrote in Spanish, but perhaps
> that too is news to you, Art.)
Shelton wrote in English.
> In any case, to aneuendor...@comicass.nut,
> an impressive VERbal parallel means
> nothing more than the possiblity of grepping, say, the word "stone" in
> both texts; in view of the size of the datasets in question, Art could
> doubtless find "impressive" VERbal parallels
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable1.html
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable2.html
----------------------------------------------------------
Which of the following quotes is due to Shakespeare
and which is due to Cervantes (as translated by Shelton)? :
------------------------------------------------------------
a) What put you in this pickle? b) How cam'st thou in this pickle?
Time out of mind. Time out of mind.
Without a wink of sleep I have not slept one wink.
At night all cats are grey. The cat is gray.
God and St. George! God and St. George!
Murder will out Murder will speak
------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Yogi Buchon" <yogib...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >
> > > And, for still other reasons, I remain a Marlovian.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > I have no objection with [sic] people desiring to be Stratfordians,
Marlovians,
> > Baconians or Oxfordians; I just think it would be nice if they'd provide
> > specifics whenever possible.
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
> I couldn't agree more, Art. So SPECIFICALLY what are the "verbal
> and stylistic parallels" between Shakespeare and Cervantes that are so
> "impressive"?
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable1.html
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable2.html
----------------------------------------------------------
Which of the following quotes is due to Shakespeare
and which is due to Cervantes (as translated by Shelton)? :
------------------------------------------------------------
Know thyself. Know thyself.
through narrow chinkes & Cranyes
day through every cranny
spies.
Strike while the iron is hot. Heat me these irons hot.
the naked truth the naked truth
All comparisons are odious. Comparisons are odorous:
The weakest go to the walls. The weakest goes to the wall.
At night all cats are grey. The cat is gray.
The cat next to Wriothesley on page 130 of Michell's
_Who Wrote Shakespeare?_ is mostly black
----------------------------------------------------------
[ http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/masons/mysteries.html ]
"Some confessed that [the Templars] had also worshipped an idol in
the form of a cat, witch was red, or gray, or black, or mottled."
- John J. Robinson, Dungeon, Fire and Sword (1991)
"The Templars' stronghold in Jerusalem, the site of their foundation,
was finally overrun by the Moslems in 1244. Thirty-three years later the
victorious sultan, BAIBARS, inspected their castle and is recorded to
have discovered inside the tower 'a great idol, in whose protection the
castle had been placed: according to the Frank who had given it its name
[this is an unreadable word, made in diacritic letters]. He ordered this
to be destroyed and a mihrab [Moslem prayer niche] constructed
in its place."
- Ian Wilson, The Shroud of Turin - The Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ?
Ian Wilson also hypothesizes that the Templar idols were representations
of Christ's face copied from the Mandylion/Shroud. A possible surviving
example, on a painted panel found at TEMPLECOMBE, England, shows
"a bearded male head, with a reddish beard, lifesize, disembodied,
and, above all, lacking in any identification mark....It conforms too,
to some of the most rational Templar descriptions:
'a painting on a plaque', 'a bearded male head',
'lifesize', 'with a grizzled beard like a Templars'.
(The Templars cultivated their beards in the style of Christ)."
- Ian Wilson, The Shroud of Turin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To disguise the curate from Quixote the barbar makes him a RED BEARD:
_Don Quixote_ Part I, Chap. 27
"..and the barber made a beard out of a gray or RED OX-tail
in which the landlord used to stick his COMB."
Later the curate's mule knocks off his ox-tail beard and he quickly
scrambles to stick it back on while mumbling a few words - a psalm
"appropriate to the sticking on of beards." Don Quixote is so
impressed that he makes the curate promise to teach him the psalm.
Much of _Don Quixote_ involves people playing elaborate practical
jokes on Quixote and Sancho that are reminiscent of Fraternity 'hazing.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer