Martin Drosehout's Uncle
MakBane
Martin Droeshout's uncle who was the Martin Droeshout of portrait-fame. I have
tried to verify this assertion, but have had no luck. Would he or someone else
please refer me to the documentation for this? Thanks.
Toby Petzold
MakBane
fella.
Toby Petzold
David Kathman
Sorry I haven't followed up on this. The source is an article
by Mary Edmond in *Shakespeare Quarterly*, I'm pretty sure
in 1990. I don't have time to go dig up the exact citation
from my files, but I can do it later if you'd like. Edmond did
not *prove* that the elder Droeshout did the Shakespeare portrait,
but she does show that the person who did the original research
on the Droeshout family in the 1890s unfairly dismissed the
elder Droeshout as a candidate, and she presents new evidence
which shows that he was in fact an engraver. She suggests that,
given all the circumstances, the elder Martin Droeshout is a much
more likely candidate than the younger Martin to be the artist of
the Shakespeare portrait. If I have some time I'll try to
post some of the facts. It's kind of frustrating that nobody
seems aware of this article, and that they keep repeating the
"fact" that Martin Droeshout was only 22 when the Folio was
published, when this "fact" is in all likelihood not true.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Charles Gillen
>elder Droeshout as a candidate, and she presents new evidence
>which shows that he was in fact an engraver. She suggests that,
>given all the circumstances, the elder Martin Droeshout is a much
>more likely candidate than the younger Martin to be the artist of
>the Shakespeare portrait.
Confusing apples and oranges :^(
With all due respect, the above overlooks that though an engraver made the
printing plate, he did not necessarily create the original picture he
REPRODUCED in metal. Some artists cut or etched their own plates, but a
greater number of engravers spent lifetimes as blue-collar craftsmen merely
reproducing (before photography, Xerox, offset, etc.) the original work of
painters or draftsmen. Stonecutters provided similar support to sculptors.
There can be a wide gulf between the skills of creation and reproduction.
Imaginary dialog:
Elder Martin: Sure, I can engrave a portrait... where is it?
Folio art editor: We don't have one. We'll tell you what he looked like.
Elder Martin: Nah, I'll send over my artistic nephew... tell him. Young
Martin needs the work. Call me after he draws you a proper portrait I can
work from.
--
NoSpam address: gillenc at home dot com
Charles Gillen -- Reston, Virginia, USA
Neuendorffer
Re: Martin Drosehout's Uncle
> David Kathman <dj...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >elder Droeshout as a candidate, and she presents new evidence
> >which shows that he was in fact an engraver. She suggests that,
> >given all the circumstances, the elder Martin Droeshout is a much
> >more likely candidate than the younger Martin to be the artist of
> >the Shakespeare portrait.
>
Charles Gillen wrote:
>
> Imaginary dialog:
>
> Elder Martin: Sure, I can engrave a portrait... where is it?
>
> Folio art editor: We don't have one. We'll tell you what he looked like.
>
> Elder Martin: Nah, I'll send over my artistic nephew... tell him. Young
> Martin needs the work. Call me after he draws you a proper portrait I can
> work from.
Picture of "young Marty":
http://www.allwall.com/asp/sp.asp?PD=10043221&RFID=054414&FT=Y
Art N.
Clark
> MakBane wrote:
> >
> > I believe it was Professor Kathman who mentioned here recently that it
was
> > Martin Droeshout's uncle who was the Martin Droeshout of portrait-fame.
I have
> > tried to verify this assertion, but have had no luck. Would he or
someone else
> > please refer me to the documentation for this? Thanks.
> >
> > Toby Petzold
>
> Sorry I haven't followed up on this. The source is an article
> by Mary Edmond in *Shakespeare Quarterly*, I'm pretty sure
> in 1990. I don't have time to go dig up the exact citation
> from my files, but I can do it later if you'd like....
"It Was for Gentle Shakespeare Cut"; Edmond, Mary; Shakespeare Quarterly,
Washington; Fall 1991; Vol. 42, Iss. 3; pg. 339, 6 pgs
Dave, you really need a subscription to ProQuest. It'd make your life a
whole lot easier.
- Clark
Visit my Shakespeare web page at:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/Shakespeare.htm
Clark
> David Kathman wrote:
>
> >elder Droeshout as a candidate, and she presents new evidence
> >which shows that he was in fact an engraver. She suggests that,
> >given all the circumstances, the elder Martin Droeshout is a much
> >more likely candidate than the younger Martin to be the artist of
> >the Shakespeare portrait.
>
> Confusing apples and oranges :^(
>
> With all due respect, the above overlooks that though an engraver made the
> printing plate, he did not necessarily create the original picture he
> REPRODUCED in metal. Some artists cut or etched their own plates, but a
> greater number of engravers spent lifetimes as blue-collar craftsmen
merely
> reproducing (before photography, Xerox, offset, etc.) the original work of
> painters or draftsmen. Stonecutters provided similar support to
sculptors.
> There can be a wide gulf between the skills of creation and reproduction.
I've just read the article that Dave mentioned, and Ms. Edmond makes a
compelling case.
There is no positive evidence regarding the younger Martin Droeshout, other
than the fact that he was born in 1601.
On the other hand, there are a number of references in the records to his
uncle, the elder Martin Droeshout. In manuscript records, the elder Martin
Droeshout was referred to as a "painter," which appears to mean that he was
a member of the Painter-Stainers' guild. The Painter-Stainers company
included members who were artists, as well as house painters.
In a record from 1635, Martin Droeshout is referred to as a "limner," which
was the term used to describe artists who painted portrait
miniatures--though there is no evidence that Droeshout painted minatures.
In her article, Ms. Edmond shows that an engraver could be referred to as a
"painter", when she mentions a parish clerk's records regarding the engraver
Remigius Hogenberg. In various records, Hogenberg is referred to six times
as a "picturemaker" (another term for an artist who painted portraits), once
as a "painter," and only once as a "graver."
Since the elder Martin Droeshout is identified in the records as someone who
could have been an engraver, and the younger Martin Droeshout isn't
identified as anything other than being born, Ms. Edmond concludes that the
true engraver of the Folio portrait was most likely the elder Martin
Droeshout. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Ms. Edmond also doubts that the engraving was Droeshout's original work.
Based upon some notes made by George Vertue, Ms. Edmond suggests that the
engraving was actually based on a lost oil portrait painted by Marcus
Gheeraerts II in 1595.
David Kathman
Thanks for the nice summary, Clark. That's one less thing that
I have to do when I can get around to it. I've really been
frightfully busy lately, and have only had time to pop
in here and make an occasional short post. This will continue
to be the case for the next two weeks, but once I come up
for air I'll try to get to some of the stuff I've been promising
to write up.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Neuendorffer
> > David Kathman <dj...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > >elder Droeshout as a candidate, and she presents new evidence
> > >which shows that he was in fact an engraver. She suggests that,
> > >given all the circumstances, the elder Martin Droeshout is a much
> > >more likely candidate than the younger Martin to be the artist of
> > >the Shakespeare portrait.
> >
> Charles Gillen wrote:
> >
> > Imaginary dialog:
> >
> > Elder Martin: Sure, I can engrave a portrait... where is it?
> >
> > Folio art editor: We don't have one. We'll tell you what he looked like.
> >
> > Elder Martin: Nah, I'll send over my artistic nephew... tell him. Young
> > Martin needs the work. Call me after he draws you a proper portrait I can
> > work from.
Neuendorffer wrote:
>
> Picture of "young Marty":
>
> http://www.allwall.com/asp/sp.asp?PD=10043221&RFID=054414&FT=Y
------------------------------------------------------------
Saint Martin of Tours
Patron Saint of Glovers
Feastday = Nov. 11
Born in Sabaria in Upper Pannonia (Hungary), c. 316; d Nov. 8, 397.
http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/1111.htm#mart
<<Martin was the son of a pagan army officer who moved with
his family to his father's new post in Pavia, Italy.
While stationed at Amiens in France in 337, a semi-naked beggar
approached him in bitterly cold weather. Martin's name became
immortal at that moment, for he sliced his military cloak in two
and gave half of it to the starving man. That night in a dream he
saw Jesus wrapped in the half of the cloak that he had given away.
Jesus said to him, "Martin, yet a catechumen, has covered me with
this garment."
When he was about 20, barbarians invaded Gaul. He was presented to
Julian Caesar with his companions to receive a donative, but Martin
refused it saying, "I have served you as a soldier; let me now
serve Christ. Give the bounty to these others who are going to
fight, but I am a soldier of Christ and it is not lawful for me to
fight." Irritated by this stance, Julian accused him of cowardice.
Martin replied that he was willing to go into battle unarmed and stand
between the opposing parties in the name of Christ. He was thrown into
prison, but that night the barbarians demanded and obtained an
ARMISTICE.
http://metalab.unc.edu/wm/paint/auth/martini/st-martin.jpg
Saint Martin Renouncing the Sword
By Simone Martini
Thereafter he lived for some time in Italy and Dalmatia before he
went to Poitiers, and Bishop Saint Hilary took him as a disciple.
To keep Martin in his diocese, Hilary assigned him the duties of
exorcism--so it was in that official capacity that Martin first
made the acquaintance of the devil. It was still only the general
devil, for he did not yet have his own private one. Martin,
however, learned how to ward off evil spells and parry thrusts
from the devil's horns, a lesson that would always be useful.
Martin's devil was capable of transforming himself into many
different shapes. He was particularly fond of taking the form of
the gods and goddesses of mythology, appearing sometimes as
Jupiter, sometimes as Mercury. But though Martin was always
alarmed by Mercury, he dismissed Jupiter as 'a stupid animal'
and 'a fool.'
Soon matters with the devil began to get worse. One day while the
saint was at prayer in his cell the devil came in without knocking,
holding in his hand a horn covered with blood. "I've just killed
one of your people," he told the saint, and in fact the monastery's
carrier had just been gored by a bull. Thereupon Martin resolved
to fight the surrounding devils by destroying all the pagan temples
in the district.
He was one of the greatest pioneers of Western monasticism before
Benedict--who had a particular veneration for him. During this
time, Priscillian, the leader of a Gnostic-Manichean sect, was
attacked by Ithacius, the bishop of Ossanova, who accused him of
sorcery and urged the emperor to put him to death.
Martin, together with Pope Saints Siricius and Ambrose, stood against
the capital punishment of Priscillian and other heterodox Spaniards.
Martin pleaded with Maximus not to execute the heretics but to simply
allow them to be excommunicated. Maximus told Martin that he would
execute no one, but after Martin left him in Trier, Maximus was
prevailed upon to remand the case of the sect to the Prefect Evodius.
The sect was found guilty and the members were beheaded, marking this as
the first judicial death sentence for heresy.
Martin is buried at Tours. His successor Brice built a chapel over
his grave, and it was later replaced with a basilica. He was one
of the most popular saints of the Middle Ages, and his shrine was
a great site of pilgrimage where many miracles are wrought.
As an evangelizer of rural Gaul and the father of monasticism in
France, Saint Martin of Tours was a figure of great importance.
His fame spread from Ireland to Africa and east.
Saint Martin's emblems are a globe of fire over his head as he says
Mass, or a goose, whose migration often coincides with his feast.
Saint Martin is venerated at Tours. He serves as patron of
armorers, beggars, cavalry, coopers, domestic animals, France,
geese, girdlers, glovers, horses and horsemen, infantrymen,
millers, innkeepers, soldiers, tailors, wine growers and wine
merchants (because his feast falls just after the vendange),
and wool-weavers (because he divided his cloak)>>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Inquisicio Indentata capta apud St Martynes
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brincknell Inquest 1567
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/DOCS/brinck.html
<<Inquisicio Indentata capta apud St Martynes in Campis in Com{itatu}
Midd{elsexie} xxiiijto die Iulij anno regni Elizabeth{e} dei gr{ati}a
Angl{ie} ffranc{ie} & Hib{er}n{ie} Regine fidei defens{oris} &c Nono
Coram Ric{ard}o Vale vno Coron{ario} d{i}c{t}e D{omi}ne Regine in
Com{itatu} p{re}d{ict}o sup{er} visum Corporis Thome Brinckenell nup{er}
de Ciuitate Westm{onasterij} in Com{itatu} p{re}d{i}c{t}o yoman ib{ide}m
iacent{is} mortui p{er} sacr{u}m Ioh{ann}is Martyne Will{elm}i Waters
Anth{oni}i Harrys Ioh{ann}is Whitehedd Will{elm}i Boseley Humfr{id}i
Mote Ioh{ann}is Tother Ioh{ann}is Bates Will{elm}i ffletcher Randolphi
Holynshedd Ioh{ann}is Bagleyne Thome Sedon Georgij Hodges Iacobi Seward
Will{elm}i Wakeffeld Iacobi P{ar}kes & Robb{er}ti Bottell p{ro}bor{um} &
legal{iu}m ho{mini}um de Com{itatu} p{re}d{i}c{t}o Qui dicunt sup{er}
sacr{u}m suu{m} q{u}od vbi vicesimo t{er}cio die Iulij anno nono
sup{r}adicto int{er} horas septimam & octauam post meridiem eiusdem diei
Edwardus Comes Oxon{iensis} Et quidam Ed{ward}us Baynam de Ciuitate
p{re}d{i}c{t}a Taylor fuer{unt} insimul in quodam loco voc{at}o le Backe
yarde infra do{m}um Mans{i}onal{em} Will{elm}i Cecyll Milit{is} apud St
Clement{em} Danes in Com{itatu} p{re}d{i}c{t}o non intendent nec in
a{n}i{m}o h{ab}entes dampnu{m} alicuius p{er}sone tunc et ib{ide}m
existent{i} Et vt{er}q{ue} eor{um} h{ab}ens gladium de ferro & calibe
voc{atum} ffoyles cum eisdem gladijs voc{atis} ffoyles alt{er} eor{um}
cum alt{er}o tunc & ib{ide}m luser{unt} ad scienc{iam} defens{us}. Ibi
venit p{re}d{i}c{t}us Thomas Brinckenell ad locum p{re}d{i}c{t}um Et
idem Thomas tunc & ib{ide}m ebrius existens & deu{m} p{rae} oculis suis
non h{ab}ens set instigac{i}one diabolica mot{us} & seduct{us}
desperant{er} ipse incurrebat & cecidit sup{er} punct{um} p{re}d{i}c{t}i
gladij voc{ati} a ffoyle ad valent{em} xijd quem p{re}d{i}c{t}us
Edwardus Comes Oxon' in manu sua dextra tunc & ib{ide}m h{ab}uit &
tenuit ea intenc{i}one ad ludend{um} (vt prefertur) R{ati}one cuius
prefat{us} Thomas cum eodem gladio voc{ato} a ffoyle in ant{er}iore
p{ar}te sui ip{s}ius sinistri femoris tunc & ib{ide}m felonice seip{su}m
p{er}cussit & pupugit & sibi ipsi dedit tunc & ib{ide}m cum gladio
p{re}d{i}c{t}o vnam plagam mort{a}lem profunditat{is} quatuor
pollic{iorum} & latitudinis vnius pollic{ij} de qua quidem plaga
mort{a}l{a} d{i}c{t}us Thomas tunc & ib{ide}m instant{er} obijt Et sic
Iur{atores} p{re}d{i}c{t}i dicunt sup{er} sacr{u}m suu{m} q{uo}d
p{re}d{i}c{t}us Thomas Brinckenell apud St Clement{em} Danes
p{re}d{i}c{t}am in Com{itatu} p{re}d{i}c{t}o d{i}c{t}o vicesimo t{er}cio
die Iulij anno nono Sup{radic{t}o modo & forma p{re}d{i}c{t}is felonice
& voluntar{ie} seips{u}m interfec{it} & occidit contra pacem d{i}c{t}e
d{omi}ne Regine Coron{am} & dignitat{em} suas Et sic idem Thomas
Brinckenell ad mortem suam deuenit & non alit{er} neq{ue} aliquo alio
modo q{u}am vt Sup{r}ad{i}c{t}um est In Cuius Rei test{ant} tam
p{re}d{i}c{t}us Coron{ario} q{u}am Iur{atores} p{re}d{i}c{t}i hinc
inquisic{i}on{em} Sigilla sua alt{er}nat{er} apposuer{unt} Dat{am} die &
anno primis sup{r}ad{i}c{t}is.
(signed) P{er} me Ric{ardum} Vale Coron{arium}
Endorsed: P{er} manus Coron{arij} infrascript{i} die ven{er}is
p{ro}x{im}a post xvam S{an}c{t}i M{ar}tini isto eod{e}m t{er}mi{n}o
coram d{omi}nam Regina{m} apud West{monasterium} delib{er}at{i}
fuer{int} hec record{atus} hic in cur{ie} t{er}minand' &c.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------
It is *extremely* difficult to find the 28 letters of
a "VERONILVERIUS/THOMAS BRINCKNELL" cross
V E R O N I L V E R I U S
L
E
N
K
C
N
I
R
B
S
A
M
O
H
T
in a string of less than 39 letters:
My 3 Million letter literary data set
included just one 38 letter string containing the
"VERONILVERIUS/THOMAS BRINCKNELL" cross:
1) "va lives that bluediorn and storridge can mak" (Finnegans Wake)
_Moby Dick_ requires a 39 letter string:
2) "ventually invested Moby Dick with new terrors"
------------------------------------------------------------
However, _Hamlet_ (Q2 Act 4) has not just one but
TWO such strings less than 36 letters:
"BLIVION, OR SOME CRAVEN SCRUPLE OF THINK" 33 letters
"CLAMBERING TO HANG, AN ENVIOUS SLIVER BROK" 35 letters
-------------------------------------------------------------
Estimated probability of finding the
"VERONILVERIUS/THOMAS BRINCKNELL" cross
in a given string of:
35 letters {"CLAMBERING TO HANG, AN ENVIOUS SLIVER BROK" }
~ 1/50,000,000
33 letters { "BLIVION, OR SOME CRAVEN SCRUPLE OF THINK" }
~ 1/1,000,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------
Estimated probability of finding two such strings
in a single act of Shakespeare :
~ 1/3,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Charles Gillen
>Since the elder Martin Droeshout is identified in the records as someone
>who could have been an engraver, and the younger Martin Droeshout isn't
>identified as anything other than being born, Ms. Edmond concludes that
>the true engraver of the Folio portrait was most likely the elder Martin
>Droeshout. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
And to me too. Thanks :^)
I hope Droeshout's other art works were better than the Folio portrait...
did Edmond mention having seen any? Just out of curiosity.
Toby Petzold
Yes, thanks for the summary and cite, Clark. I am confused, though, as
to why it has been so long accepted that it was the younger Droeshout
who engraved the portrait. If nothing is known about him, but it is
known that he had an uncle who seems more qualified to have been the
artist, why did history ever alight upon the younger? Is there
something that disqualfies the Elder Droeshout that I'm not getting
here?
The Droeshout Portrait is a caricature, if you think on it. Which
means that it had a subject, either from life or from the inevitable
missing original. It's hard for any of us to make a fully objective
assessment of it; it is iconic and full of weird artistic
incompetencies that have to be loved to be ignored.
As for the Droeshout factor in the Question, I don't think there's
much influence. But one must wonder why the creators of the First
Folio would have gone with such a cartoon.
Toby Petzold
p.s. I am posting this through Google today; AOL's message boards are
down.
Clark
> I hope Droeshout's other art works were better than the Folio portrait...
> did Edmond mention having seen any? Just out of curiosity.
No mention of any in the article.
David Kathman
>
> "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Since the elder Martin Droeshout is identified in the records as someone
> >who could have been an engraver, and the younger Martin Droeshout isn't
> >identified as anything other than being born, Ms. Edmond concludes that
> >the true engraver of the Folio portrait was most likely the elder Martin
> >Droeshout. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
>
> And to me too. Thanks :^)
>
> I hope Droeshout's other art works were better than the Folio portrait...
> did Edmond mention having seen any? Just out of curiosity.
You can read a biography of Droeshout (the elder) from the
Grove Dictionary of Art here:
http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
It accepts him as the artist of the Shakespeare portrait,
as well as a portrait of James Hamilton, Marquess of Hamilton,
also dated 1623. The only people who still think the younger
Martin was the artist of the Shakespare portrait seem to be
antistratfordians, who seem to use outdated scholarship whenever
possible. I can't count the number of times I've seen
some antistrat cite a 19th-century source as though it were
authoritative, when it has been superceded by much more
recent scholarship.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Clark
> Yes, thanks for the summary and cite, Clark. I am confused, though, as
> to why it has been so long accepted that it was the younger Droeshout
> who engraved the portrait. If nothing is known about him, but it is
> known that he had an uncle who seems more qualified to have been the
> artist, why did history ever alight upon the younger? Is there
> something that disqualfies the Elder Droeshout that I'm not getting
> here?
According to Ms. Edmond, the elder Droeshout was summarily dismissed from
consideration solely because he had been listed in the records as being a
"painter", rather than as an engraver. Since the younger Droeshout wasn't
identified as anything, but was the son of a known engraver, the assumption
was made that it was the younger man who had done the engraving of
Shakespeare.
But as Ms. Edmond has shown in her article, another known engraver,
Hogenberg, was also described as a "painter," so the reason for excluding
the elder Droeshout from consideration isn't valid.
The mistake isn't that old. The (mis)identification of the engraver as the
younger Droeshout apparently wasn't made until Lionel Cust published his
work, "Foreign Artists of the Reformed Religion Working in London from about
1560 to 1660," in the Huguenot Society _Proceedings_ (1901-1904).
Neuendorffer
King Henry VI, Part iii Act 5, Scene 4
QUEEN MARGARET Great lords, wise men ne'er sit and wail their loss,
But cheerly seek how to redress their harms.
What though the mast be now blown overboard,
The cable broke, the holding-anchor lost,
And half our sailors swallow'd in the flood?
Yet lives our pilot still:
------------------------------------------------------------
(T) his Figure, that thou here seest put,
It was for gentle Shakespeare cut,
[W]herein the Graver had a strife
with Nature, to out-doo the life :
(O), could he but have drawne his wit
As well in brasse, as he hath hit
[H] is face ; the Print would then surpasse
All, that was ever writ in brasse.
(B) ut, since he cannot, Reader, looke
Not on his Picture, but his Booke.
------------------------------------------------------------
H.W. (Henry Wriothesley)
B.O.T. (Baron of Titchfield)
--------------------------------------------------------------
The Tempest Act 1, Scene 1
GONZALO I have great comfort from this fellow: methinks he
hath no drowning mark upon him; his complexion is
perfect gallows. Stand fast, good Fate, to his
hanging: make the rope of his destiny our cable,
for our own doth little advantage. If he be not
born to be hanged, our case is miserable.
Enter BOTESWaine
---------------------------------------------------------------
B.O.T.E.S.W.(ainery)
(B)aron (O)f (T)itchfield/(E)arl (S)outhampton/(W)riothesley
--------------------------------------------------------------
<<I was now ready to be made a Freemason. . .I was hoodwinked (i.e.,
blindfolded) and dressed in loose fitting white trousers and top. One
foot was in a simple slipper (i.e., slipshod), my left leg was exposed
to the knee, and the left breast of the tunic had been drawn aside so
that my chest was bared on that side.
A hangman's noose (known as a CABLE tow)
had been put around my neck and draped down my back. (We later learnt
that this mode of dress, the rough smock with the running noose
about the neck, was exactly how a medieval heretic would have been
treated by the Inquisition prior to making his confession.)>>
-- _The HIRAM Key_ by Knight & Lomas
T O T H E o n
{r}o [H] e
{o} n[E] (M)
{p} [N]e (A)
{e}R]n (R)o
[Y]o l(I)
O.E. (H)
[W]
[R]
[E|
[S|
[L|H]
[E|T]
[Y|O]
|I]
<<Some months later I passed through a Second Degree ceremony to attain
the rank of a 'Fellowcraft Freemason'. I was wearing the same rough
clothing used at my initiation ceremony, now with left leg and right
breast laid bare.>> -- _The Hiram Key_ by Knight & Lomas
------------------------------------------------------------
Pantere a noose, snare [OE]
------------------------------------------------------------
Painter, n. Date: 14th century [OE, pantere a noose, snare, F.
panti[`e]re, LL. panthera, L. panther a hunting net, fr. Gr. panqh`ra;
pa^s all + qh`r beast; cf. Ir. painteir a net, gin, snare, Gael.
painntear.] (Naut.) A rope at the bow of a boat, used to fasten it to
anything. --Totten.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > there are a number of references in the records to his uncle,
> > > the elder Martin Droeshout. In manuscript records, the elder Martin
> > >Droeshout was referred to as a "painter," which appears to mean that
> > > he was a member of the Painter-Stainers' guild. The Painter-Stainers
> > >company included members who were artists, as well as house painters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Measure for Measure Act 3, Scene 2
LUCIO Does BRIDGET paint still, Pompey, ha?
------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1483 RAPHAEL born/christened?
father died on LAMMAS August 1, 1494.
April 6, 1520 RAPHAEL dies on his 37th birthday.
leaving unfinished his 'Transfiguration'
April 6, 1528 DURER dies in Nürnberg
April 6, 1584 BRIDGET Vere is born.
April 6, 1604 John Hamilton, 1st marquess of Hamilton dies.
April 7, 1614 EL GRECO dies.
---------------------------------------------------------------
John Hamilton, 1st marquess of Hamilton 1532–1604
<<1532–1604, Scottish nobleman; second son of James Hamilton, 2d earl of
Arran. He was in his earlier years hostile to Mary Queen of Scots, but
he later became her supporter and as a result forfeited his lands. In
revenge he was party to the murder (1570) of the regent, James Stuart,
1st earl of Murray. In 1573 Hamilton represented his family at the
Pacification of Perth, when the Hamiltons acknowledged Mary’s son, James
VI (later James I of England), as king. The death of his father in 1575
made him the nearest heir to the throne of Scotland and placed him at
the head of the Hamilton family because of the insanity of his elder
brother James, 3d earl of Arran. In 1579 proceedings were started
against him in connection with Murray’s murder, and he fled to England,
where he tried unsuccessfully to secure support. With other banished
lords he returned to Scotland in 1585, was reconciled with James, and
thereafter enjoyed possession of his family’s estates and the favor and
confidence of the king. He was created marquess in 1599.>> The Columbia
Encyclopedia
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Since the elder Martin Droeshout is identified in the records as someone
> > >who could have been an engraver, and the younger Martin Droeshout isn't
> > >identified as anything other than being born, Ms. Edmond concludes that
> > >the true engraver of the Folio portrait was most likely the elder Martin
> > >Droeshout. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
David Kathman wrote:
>
> You can read a biography of Droeshout (the elder) from the
> Grove Dictionary of Art here:
>
> http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
>
> It accepts him as the artist of the Shakespeare portrait,
> as well as a portrait of
> James Hamilton, Marquess of Hamilton, also dated 1623.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Droeshout, Martin
http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
<<(b Brussels, 1560s; d ?London, c. 1642). Flemish engraver, active in
England. He was the second son of John and Mary Droeshout, who arrived
in London from Brussels as Protestant refugees. The eldest son, Michael
Droeshout, studied engraving on the Continent before rejoining the
family c. 1590. John, presumably also an engraver, is described in
manuscripts as a ‘painter’, indicating that he became a freeman of the
Painter–Stainers’ Company, London, which admitted men who worked with
wood, metal and stone, as well as pigments. Martin certainly became a
freeman of the Company, probably by patrimony; the Company’s minutes,
which survive from 1623, show that he was a leading member. About 1605
he settled in the parish of St Olave Hart Street, near the Tower of
London, and had seven children by a second wife. The engraving of
William Shakespeare signed Martin Droeshout, which is on the title-page
of the first collected edition of Shakespeare’s plays, the ‘First Folio’
(1623), can be confidently attributed to Droeshout. A few other works of
his survive, including a signed portrait of James Hamilton, 2nd Marquess
of Hamilton (1589–1625), also dated 1623. Martin had two nephews, sons
of his brother Michael Droeshout: the elder, John Droeshout
(1599–1652), was also an engraver. The only positive fact known about
the younger, Martin Droeshout the younger, is that he was born in 1601.
The common attribution to him of the Shakespeare engraving cannot be
sustained: the editors of the First Folio would not have entrusted such
an important commission to someone who was only 15 when Shakespeare died
and was still in his very early twenties when the First Folio
appeared.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.hamiltongensociety.org/history.htm
<<John, 1st marquess of Hamilton (c. 1542-1604), third son of James
Hamilton, 2nd earl of Arran and duke of Châtellerault, was given the
abbey of Arbroath in 1551. In politics he was largely under the
influence of his energetic and unscrupulous younger brother Claud,
afterwards Baron Paisley (c. 1543-1622, ancestor of the dukes of
Abercorn. The brothers were the real heads of the house of Hamilton,
their elder brother Arran being insane. At first hostile to Mary, they
later became her devoted partisans. Their uncle, John Hamilton,
archbishop of St. Andrews, natural son of the 1st earl of Arran, was
restored to his consistorial jurisdiction by Mary in 1566, and in May of
the next year he divorced Bothwell from his wife. Lord Claud met Mary on
her escape from Lochleven and escorted her to Hamilton palace. John
appears to have been in France in 1568 when
the battle of Langslide was fought, and it was Claud who commanded
Mary's vanguard in the battle. With others of the queen's party they
were forfeited by the parliament and sought their revenge On the regent
Murray. Although the Hamiltons disavowed all connexion with Murray's
murderer, James Hamilton of Bothwellhaugh, he had been provided with
horse and weapons by the abbot of Arbroath, and it was at Hamilton that
he sought refuge after the deed. Archbishop Hamilton was hanged at
Stirling in 1571 for alleged complicity in the murder of Darnley, and is
said to have admitted that he was a party to the murder of Murray. At
the pacification of Perth in 1573 the Hamiltons abandoned Mary's cause,
and a recon-ciliation with the Douglases was sealed by Lord John's
marriage with Margaret, daughter of the 7th Lord Glamis, a. cousin of
the regent Morton. Sir
William Douglas of Lochleven, however, persistently sought his life in
revenge for the murder of Murray until, on his refusal to keep the
peace, he was imprisoned. On the uncertain evidence extracted from the
assassin by torture, the Hamiltons had been credited with a share in the
murder of the regent Lennox in 1571. In 1579 proceedings against them
for these two crimes were resumed, and when they escaped to England
their lands and titles were seized by, their political enemies, James
Stuart becoming earl of Arran. John Hamilton presently dissociated
himself from the policy of his brother Claud, who continued to plot for
Spanish intervention on behalf of Mary; and Catholic plotters are even
said to have suggested his murder to procure the succession of his
brother. Hamilton had at one time been credited with the hope of
marrying Mary; his desires now centred on
the peaceful enjoyment of his estates. With other Scottish exiles he
crossed the border in 1585 and marched oil Stilling; he was admitted on
the 4th of November and formally reconciled with James VI., with whom he
was thenceforward on the friendliest terms. Claud returned to Scotland
in 1586, and the abbey of Paisley was erected into a temporal barony in
his favour in 1587. Much of his later years was spent in strict
retirement, his son being authorized to act for him in 1598. John was
created marquess of Hamilton and Lord Evan in 1599, and died on the 6th
of April 1604.>>
<<His eldest surviving son James, 2nd marquess of Hamilton (c.
1589-1625), was created baron of Innerdale and earl of Cambridge in the
peerage of England in 1619, and these honours descended to his son
James, who in 1643 was created duke of Hamilton (q.v.). William, 2nd
duke of Hamilton (1616-1651),succeeded to the dukedom on his brother's
execution in 1649. He was created earl of Lanark in 1639, and in the
next year became secretary of state in Scotland. Arrested at Oxford by
the king's orders in 1643 for "concurrence" with Hamilton, he effected
his escape and was temporarily reconciled with the Presbyterian party.
He was sent by the Scottish committee of estates to treat with Charles
I. at Newcastle in 1646, when he sought in vain to persuade the king to
consent to the establishment of Presbyterianism in England. On the 26th
of September
1647 he signed on behalf of the Scots the treaty with Charles known as
the "Engagement" at Carisbrooke Castle, and helped to organize the
second Civil War. In 1648 he fled to Holland, his succession in the next
year to his brother's dukedom making him an important personage among
the Royalist exiles. he returned to Scotland with Prince Charles in
1650, but, finding a reconciliation with Argyll impossible, he refused
to prejudice Charles's cause by pushing his claims, and lived in
retirement chiefly until the Scottish invasion of England, when he acted
as colonel of a body of his dependants. He died on the 12th of September
1651 from the effects of wounds received at Worcester. He left no male
heirs, and the title devolved on the 1st duke's eldest surviving
daughter Anne, duchess of Hamilton in her own right.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Kathman wrote:
>
> The only people who still think the younger
> Martin was the artist of the Shakespare portrait seem to be
> antistratfordians, who seem to use outdated scholarship whenever
> possible. I can't count the number of times I've seen
> some antistrat cite a 19th-century source as though it were
> authoritative, when it has been superceded by much more
> recent scholarship.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
john_baker
Clark,
You appear not to take Toby's point. The FF's engraving is obviously
a "caricature" and not an not an engraving, particularly of a 1595 age
31 Willy.
For example if you look that the "doublet" he has on you will notice
that the right side and the left side are not the same.
Why?
Its because the left side, i.e., the sitter's right side, is the
_back_ of the same doublet...so we are seeing the front and the back
of Willy in this "caricature."
It is also quite clear, from the sources you cite, that the name on
this engraving in the FF may simply be false.
>
>
>
>
>
John Baker
Visit my Webpage:
http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe
"Chance favors the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur
Clark
> Clark,
>
> You appear not to take Toby's point. The FF's engraving is obviously
> a "caricature" and not an not an engraving, particularly of a 1595 age
> 31 Willy.
>
> For example if you look that the "doublet" he has on you will notice
> that the right side and the left side are not the same.
>
> Why?
>
> Its because the left side, i.e., the sitter's right side, is the
> _back_ of the same doublet...so we are seeing the front and the back
> of Willy in this "caricature."
>
> It is also quite clear, from the sources you cite, that the name on
> this engraving in the FF may simply be false.
No, John, I noticed Toby's comments on the possibility of the engraving
being a caricature. I simply had no desire to respond to them.
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3B07CF7B...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
[...]
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> H.W. (Henry Wriothesley)
> B.O.T. (Baron of Titchfield)
H.W. (Hog Wash)
B.O.T. (Buffoon's Oxfordian Tripe)
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> The Tempest Act 1, Scene 1
>
> GONZALO I have great comfort from this fellow: methinks he
> hath no drowning mark upon him; his complexion is
> perfect gallows. Stand fast, good Fate, to his
> hanging: make the rope of his destiny our cable,
> for our own doth little advantage. If he be not
> born to be hanged, our case is miserable.
>
> Enter BOTESWaine
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> B.O.T.E.S.W.(ainery)
> (B)aron (O)f (T)itchfield/(E)arl (S)outhampton/(W)riothesley
B.O.T.E.S.W.A.I.N.E.
(B)uffoon(O)f(T)he(E)astern(S)eabord,(W)ashington's(A)rt"(I)diot"(N)euen
dorffer(E)ntertains
[...]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Droeshout, Martin
I've already pointed out that "Martin Droeshout" is a perfect
anagram of
"I'm Herodotus. -- Art N.,"
which establishes pretty conclusively the identity of the "father of
lies," and which incidentally scores 13/15 according to the idiotic
Neuendorffer proper names criterion. That's a score that none of your
"anagrams" can match, even the few that actually are anagrams.
> http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
"Artnet.com"? Don't you see that "artnet" should be interpreted as
"Art N., E. T."? If you are indeed an extraterrestrial, Art, perhaps
that circumstance explains your eager, credulous reliance upon lunatic
web sites raving about conspiracies involving space aliens.
> <<(b Brussels, 1560s; d ?London, c. 1642). Flemish engraver, active in
> England. He was the second son of John and Mary Droeshout,
Who else had parents named JOHN and MARY, Art? (Hint: Mr. W.S.).
> who arrived
> in London from Brussels as Protestant refugees. The eldest son, Michael
> Droeshout, studied engraving on the Continent before rejoining the
> family c. 1590. John, presumably also an engraver, is described in
> manuscripts as a ‘painter’, indicating that he became a freeman
Is the string "so" omitted before the terminal "n" in the final word
above, Art?
> of the
> Painter–Stainers’ Company, London, which admitted men who worked with
> wood, metal and stone,
Men who worked with STONE, Art!
> as well as pigments. Martin certainly became a
> freeman of the Company, probably by patrimony;
A Lewis?
> the Company’s minutes,
> which survive from 1623, show that he was a leading member. About 1605
> he settled in the parish of St Olave Hart Street, near the Tower of
> London, and had seven children by a second wife. The engraving of
> William Shakespeare signed Martin Droeshout, which is on the title-page
> of the first collected edition of Shakespeare’s plays, the ‘First Folio’
> (1623), can be confidently attributed to Droeshout. A few other works of
> his survive, including a signed portrait of James Hamilton, 2nd Marquess
> of Hamilton (1589–1625), also dated 1623. Martin had two nephews, sons
> of his brother Michael Droeshout: the elder, John Droeshout
> (1599–1652), was also an engraver. The only positive fact known about
> the younger, Martin Droeshout the younger, is that he was born in 1601.
> The common attribution to him of the Shakespeare engraving cannot be
> sustained: the editors of the First Folio would not have entrusted such
> an important commission to someone who was only 15 when Shakespeare died
> and was still in his very early twenties when the First Folio
> appeared.>>
[...]
Fascinating, Art. But what was your point, if any?
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > H.W. (Henry Wriothesley)
> > B.O.T. (Baron of Titchfield)
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> H.W. (Hog Wash)
> B.O.T. (Buffoon's Oxfordian Tripe)
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Tempest Act 1, Scene 1
> >
> > GONZALO I have great comfort from this fellow: methinks he
> > hath no drowning mark upon him; his complexion is
> > perfect gallows. Stand fast, good Fate, to his
> > hanging: make the rope of his destiny our cable,
> > for our own doth little advantage. If he be not
> > born to be hanged, our case is miserable.
> >
> > Enter BOTESWaine
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > B.O.T.E.S.W.(ainery)
> > (B)aron (O)f (T)itchfield/(E)arl (S)outhampton/(W)riothesley
>
> B.O.T.E.S.W.A.I.N.E.
> (B)uffoon(O)f(T)he(E)astern(S)eabord,(W)ashington's(A)rt"(I)diot"
> (N)euendorffer(E)ntertains
Let me. . .entertain you!
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > Droeshout, Martin
>
> I've already pointed out that "Martin Droeshout" is a perfect
> anagram of
>
> "I'm Herodotus. -- Art N.,"
>
> which establishes pretty conclusively the identity of the "father of
> lies," and which incidentally scores 13/15 according to the idiotic
> Neuendorffer proper names criterion. That's a score that none of your
> "anagrams" can match, even the few that actually are anagrams.
One name with 9/9:
HERODOTUS
DROESHOUT
beats out two unrelated names with 13/15
> > http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
>
> "Artnet.com"? Don't you see that "artnet" should be interpreted as
> "Art N., E. T."?
I post without a net, Dave.
> If you are indeed an extraterrestrial, Art, perhaps
> that circumstance explains your eager, credulous reliance upon lunatic
> web sites raving about conspiracies involving space aliens.
Stratfordian Kodos.
> > <<(b Brussels, 1560s; d ?London, c. 1642). Flemish engraver, active in
> > England. He was the second son of John and Mary Droeshout,
>
> Who else had parents named JOHN and MARY, Art?
Michael Droeshout.
> > who arrived
> > in London from Brussels as Protestant refugees. The eldest son, Michael
> > Droeshout, studied engraving on the Continent before rejoining the
> > family c. 1590. John, presumably also an engraver, is described in
> > manuscripts as a ‘painter’, indicating that he became a freeman
>
> Is the string "so" omitted before the terminal "n" in the final word
> above, Art?
It is when Joyce uses the term "Freeman."
> > of the
> > Painter–Stainers’ Company, London, which admitted men who worked with
> > wood, metal and stone,
>
> Men who worked with STONE, Art!
> > as well as pigments.
Men who worked with PIGments, Dave!
> Martin certainly became a
> > freeman of the Company, probably by patrimony;
>
> A Lewis?
Ask Clark:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > there are a number of references in the records to his uncle,
> > > the elder Martin Droeshout. In manuscript records, the elder Martin
> > >Droeshout was referred to as a "painter," which appears to mean that
> > > he was a member of the Painter-Stainers' guild. The Painter-Stainers
> > >company included members who were artists, as well as house painters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Measure for Measure Act 3, Scene 2
LUCIO Does BRIDGET paint still, Pompey, ha?
------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1483 RAPHAEL born/christened?
father died on LAMMAS August 1, 1494.
April 6, 1520 RAPHAEL dies on his 37th birthday.
leaving unfinished his 'Transfiguration'
April 6, 1528 DURER dies in Nürnberg
April 6, 1584 BRIDGET Vere is born.
April 6, 1604 JAMES HAMILTON becomes 2nd Marquess of Hamilton.
April 7, 1614 EL GRECO dies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kathman wrote:
> You can read a biography of Droeshout (the elder)
> from the Grove Dictionary of Art here:
>
> http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
>
> It accepts him as the artist of the Shakespeare portrait,
> as well as a portrait of
> JAMES HAMILTON, Marquess of Hamilton, also dated 1623.
---------------------------------------------------------------
> > the Company’s minutes,
> > which survive from 1623, show that he was a leading member. About 1605
> > he settled in the parish of St Olave Hart Street, near the Tower of
> > London, and had seven children by a second wife. The engraving of
> > William Shakespeare signed Martin Droeshout, which is on the title-page
> > of the first collected edition of Shakespeare’s plays, the ‘First Folio’
> > (1623), can be confidently attributed to Droeshout. A few other works of
> > his survive, including a signed portrait of James Hamilton, 2nd Marquess
> > of Hamilton (1589–1625), also dated 1623. Martin had two nephews, sons
> > of his brother Michael Droeshout: the elder, John Droeshout
> > (1599–1652), was also an engraver. The only positive fact known about
> > the younger, Martin Droeshout the younger, is that he was born in 1601.
> > The common attribution to him of the Shakespeare engraving cannot be
> > sustained: the editors of the First Folio would not have entrusted such
> > an important commission to someone who was only 15 when Shakespeare died
> > and was still in his very early twenties when the First Folio
> > appeared.>>
> Fascinating, Art. But what was your point, if any?
------------------------------------------------------------
You mean what is my paint:
Why is a cable tow like a noose?
------------------------------------------------------------
Painter, n. Date: 14th century [OE, pantere a noose, snare, F.
panti[`e]re, LL. panthera, L. panther a hunting net, fr. Gr. panqh`ra;
pa^s all + qh`r beast; cf. Ir. painteir a net, gin, snare, Gael.
painntear.] (Naut.) A rope at the bow of a boat,
used to fasten it to anything. --Totten.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3B0A8868...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > H.W. (Henry Wriothesley)
> > > B.O.T. (Baron of Titchfield)
> "David L. Webb" wrote:
>
> > H.W. (Hog Wash)
> > B.O.T. (Buffoon's Oxfordian Tripe)
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Tempest Act 1, Scene 1
> > >
> > > GONZALO I have great comfort from this fellow: methinks he
> > > hath no drowning mark upon him; his complexion is
> > > perfect gallows. Stand fast, good Fate, to his
> > > hanging: make the rope of his destiny our cable,
> > > for our own doth little advantage. If he be not
> > > born to be hanged, our case is miserable.
> > >
> > > Enter BOTESWaine
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > > B.O.T.E.S.W.(ainery)
> > > (B)aron (O)f (T)itchfield/(E)arl (S)outhampton/(W)riothesley
> > B.O.T.E.S.W.A.I.N.E.
> > (B)uffoon(O)f(T)he(E)astern(S)eabord,(W)ashington's(A)rt"(I)diot"
> > (N)euendorffer(E)ntertains
> Let me. . .entertain you!
I knew I could count on you, Art!
> > > Droeshout, Martin
> > I've already pointed out that "Martin Droeshout" is a perfect
> > anagram of
> >
> > "I'm Herodotus. -- Art N.,"
> >
> > which establishes pretty conclusively the identity of the "father of
> > lies," and which incidentally scores 13/15 according to the idiotic
> > Neuendorffer proper names criterion. That's a score that none of your
> > "anagrams" can match, even the few that actually are anagrams.
> One name with 9/9:
>
>
> HERODOTUS
> DROESHOUT
>
> beats out two unrelated names with 13/15
But the names *aren't* unrelated -- the anagram clearly establishes
Art N. as Herodotus, the "father of lies." In any case, you *didn't*
find the anagram Droeshout<=>Herodotus either, Art. Thus it is still
true that "I'm Herodotus. -- Art N." is far superior to any of your
"anagrams," even to the very few that actually are anagrams.
> > > http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
> > "Artnet.com"? Don't you see that "artnet" should be interpreted as
> > "Art N., E. T."?
> I post without a net, Dave.
But surely the white-coated orderlies who supervise your activities
have nets, don't they, Art?
[...]
> > > <<(b Brussels, 1560s; d ?London, c. 1642). Flemish engraver, active in
> > > England. He was the second son of John and Mary Droeshout,
> > Who else had parents named JOHN and MARY, Art?
> Michael Droeshout.
What about Shakespeare, Art? Doesn't this identify Shakespeare and
Droeshout as the same person? After all, their parents had the same
names, and you already demonstrated your incapacity of understanding
that two individuals may possess the same names.
> > > who arrived
> > > in London from Brussels as Protestant refugees. The eldest son, Michael
> > > Droeshout, studied engraving on the Continent before rejoining the
> > > family c. 1590. John, presumably also an engraver, is described in
> > > manuscripts as a ‘painter’, indicating that he became a freeman
> > Is the string "so" omitted before the terminal "n" in the final word
> > above, Art?
> It is when Joyce uses the term "Freeman."
How do you know that, Art? Mere wild speculation? I thought so.
> > > of the
> > > Painter–Stainers’ Company, London, which admitted men who worked with
> > > wood, metal and stone,
> > Men who worked with STONE, Art!
> > > as well as pigments.
> Men who worked with PIGments, Dave!
I don't follow your association here, Art, unless perhaps you're
intimating that such men worked with HUES, or that they were DYERS.
What was your point?
[...]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > there are a number of references in the records to his uncle,
> > > > the elder Martin Droeshout. In manuscript records, the elder Martin
> > > >Droeshout was referred to as a "painter," which appears to mean that
> > > > he was a member of the Painter-Stainers' guild. The Painter-Stainers
But Art -- "Painter-Stainer" is a perfect anagram of
"Art - insane tripe,"
even including the dash!
> > > >company included members who were artists, as well as house painters.
[...]
What is "rope" doing here, Art? I thought that Freemasons called it
a cable tow. And what are "wr," "htoi," and "esley"?
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > > I've already pointed out that "Martin Droeshout" is a perfect
> > > anagram of
> > >
> > > "I'm Herodotus. -- Art N.,"
> > >
> > > which establishes pretty conclusively the identity of the "father of
> > > lies," and which incidentally scores 13/15 according to the idiotic
> > > Neuendorffer proper names criterion. That's a score that none of your
> > > "anagrams" can match, even the few that actually are anagrams.
>
> > One name with 9/9:
> >
> >
> > HERODOTUS
> > DROESHOUT
> >
> > beats out two unrelated names with 13/15
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> But the names *aren't* unrelated -- the anagram clearly establishes
> Art N. as Herodotus, the "father of lies." In any case, you *didn't*
> find the anagram Droeshout<=>Herodotus either, Art.
Did you find Droeshout<=>Herodotus all by yourself, Dave,
or were you given it?
> > > > http://www.artnet.com/library/02/0237/T023711.asp
>
> > > "Artnet.com"? Don't you see that "artnet" should be interpreted as
> > > "Art N., E. T."?
>
> > I post without a net, Dave.
>
> But surely the white-coated orderlies who supervise your activities
> have nets, don't they, Art?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalms 140
4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from
the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.
5 The proud have hid a snare for me, and cords; they have spread a net
by the wayside *; they have set gins for me. Selah.
Job 18
8 For he is cast into a net by his own feet, and he walketh upon a
snare.
9 The gin shall take him by the heel, and the robber shall prevail
against him.
10 The snare is laid for him in the ground, and a trap for him in the
way.
Psalms 18
5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented
me.
6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he
heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even
into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills
moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > <<(b Brussels, 1560s; d ?London, c. 1642). Flemish engraver, active in
> > > > England. He was the second son of John and Mary Droeshout,
>
> > > Who else had parents named JOHN and MARY, Art?
>
> > Michael Droeshout.
>
> What about Shakespeare, Art? Doesn't this identify Shakespeare and
> Droeshout as the same person? After all, their parents had the same
> names,
Then how do you know Shakespeare isn't Michael Droeshout?
> > > > who arrived
> > > > in London from Brussels as Protestant refugees. The eldest son, Michael
> > > > Droeshout, studied engraving on the Continent before rejoining the
> > > > family c. 1590. John, presumably also an engraver, is described in
> > > > manuscripts as a ‘painter’, indicating that he became a freeman
>
> > > Is the string "so" omitted before
> > > the terminal "n" in the final word above, Art?
>
> > It is when Joyce uses the term "Freeman."
>
> How do you know that, Art? Mere wild speculation? I thought so.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
..well have him coming home with the sack soon out of the Freeman too
like the rest on account of those Sinner Fein or the freemasons...
http://www.freemasonry.bc.ca/fiction/joyce.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulysses EPISODE 7--AEOLUS begins at NOON,
in the combined newspaper office of the Freeman's Journal and National
Press
(the morning daily) and the Evening Telegraph (the evening daily).
---------------------------------------------------------
The 'Fellowcraft' Degree:
-------------------------------------------------------
Q. Where were you made a Mason?
A. In the body of the Lodge, just, perfect and regular.
Q. And When?
A. When the sun was at the meridian.
---------------------------------------------------------
Dec. 31, 1607 Julian
Extremely close conjunction (noon eclipse?) of Saturn & Sun
(also the first waning quarter moon after Christmas).
"Edmund Shakspeare" is buried.
-------------------------------------------------------
>From the daybook of the sexton of St. Saviour's, Southwark,
for December 31, 1607:
"Edmund Shakspeare, a player,
buried in the Church with a foreNOONE knell
of the great bell, xx s."
---------------------------------------------------------
> > > > of the Painter–Stainers’ Company, London,
> > > > which admitted men who worked with
> > > > wood, metal and stone,
>
> > > Men who worked with STONE, Art!
>
> > > > as well as pigments.
>
> > Men who worked with PIGments, Dave!
>
> I don't follow your association here, Art, unless perhaps you're
> intimating that such men worked with HUES, or that they were DYERS.
Such men do work with HUES, and they were DYERS.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > "Clark" <cjh...@home.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > there are a number of references in the records to his uncle,
> > > > > the elder Martin Droeshout. In manuscript records, the elder Martin
> > > > >Droeshout was referred to as a "painter," which appears to mean that
> > > > > he was a member of the Painter-Stainers' guild. The Painter-Stainers
>
> But Art -- "Painter-Stainer" is a perfect anagram of
>
> "Art - insane tripe,"
Nut-hook, nut-hook, you lie. Come on; I 'll tell
thee what, thou damned tripe-visaged rascal, an
the child I now go with do miscarry, thou wert
better thou hadst struck thy mother, thou
paper-faced villain.
> > > > >company included members who were artists, as well as house painters.
> > > Fascinating, Art. But what was your point, if any?
Cable tow wouldn't fit:
---------------------------------------------------------------
T O T H E o n L I E B E G E T T
E {r}o F T{H} e S E I N S U I N G
S {o}N n{E} T S (M) R W H{a l l}H A
P {p}I{N}e S S E (A) N D T H A T E
T {e|R}n I T I E P (R)o M I S E D
B {Y}o U R E V E R l(I) V I N G P
O.E. T W I S H E T H T (H) E W E L
L [W] I S H I N G A D V E N T U R
E [R] I N S E T T I N G {f o r} T H
T O T H E O N L I [E| B E G E T T E R
O F T H E S E I N [S| U I N G S O N N
E T S M R W H A L [L|H] A P P I N E S
S E A N D T H A T [E|T] {e}R N I T I E
P R O M I S E D B [Y|O] U{r}E V E R L
I V I N G P O E T W |I] S H{e}T H T H
E|W]E L L W I S H I N G A{d v e)N T
U|R]E R I N S E T T I N G F O R T H
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> And what are "wr," "htoi," and "esley"?
It's a "sparagmos or dismemberment"
(but whom they lament I must not say):
------------------------------------------------------------------
For according to my 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_ Herodotus had
a lot to say about TRAGEDY (i.e., a goat-song) being
a PATHOS (i.e., the violent death of Dionysus/Osiris
by "sparagmos or dismemberment):
<<. . .we have the express testimony of HERODOTUS that the ritual
worship of Dionysus (the god of Drama) was the same as the ritual
worship of Osiris such that it involved a sparagmos(dismemberment),
mourning, search, discovery and resurrection.>> -- Drama article in
1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_
However, Herodotus avoided directly mentioning
Dionysus OR Osiris in this regard:
"When the Egyptians lament the god whom I may not name in this
connection"
"They lament but whom they lament I must not say" -- Herodotus
------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer