Portrait comparisons
Tom Reedy
Shakespeare portrait and another open to Terry and Dave's Authorship Webpage
with the Droeshut engraving. The two images happen to be exactly the same
size on the monitor screen. I clicked on the engraving image and held the
mouse button down and superimposed it over the new portrait.
The two fit so well I suspect a forgery. The eyes, the nose, the
mouth--everything is in perfect proportion. The cheeks of the Droeshut
portrait were a little chubbier, but the skull dimensions were perfect. Even
the 3/4 views fit exactly.
The only difference in the eyes is that the Droeshut's eyes are a little
rounder and have bags underneath them. It seems to me that bags under the
eyes would be present in a 39-year-old man.
There's something going on here. To me, it appears as if one was the model
for the other. Unless both artists were extremely accurate, I don't see how
one could not have derived from the other, especially given the excat
duplication of the 3/4 view. Whether the painting derived from the engraving
or vice versa, I'm sure we'll find out as the drama unfolds.
TR
john_baker
r u going to post the picture. i still haven't seen it.
just post it on your cite or send it to me as an email and
i'll post it on mine...if you are out of space...
But you are quite right to suspect something if
the two fit so well...
john
John Baker
Visit my Webpage:
http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe
"Chance favors the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur
Pat Dooley
Tom Reedy <txr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cS_L6.3288$Az.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
You're probably right that one derives from the other, and the
Droeshout is
the original. The clothing appears to be derivative. The pattern of
triangles
on the collar is repeated in the portrait. It looks like the collar in
the
Droeshout has been flattened down in the painting. The curve at the
front of both collars is very similar.
The line of fasteners down the front of the tunic is at a similar
angle in both portraits. They also seem to be at the same spacing.
I would expect the line of derivation to go from the less realistic
(the Droeshout collar) to the more realistic (the naturalistic version
in the portrait).
Pat Dooley
john_baker
Peter Farey provided a link and I found it quickly...thanks...its not
him...might be the actor chap...
baker
Neuendorffer
>
> You're probably right that one derives from the other, and the
> Droeshout is
> the original. The clothing appears to be derivative. The pattern of
> triangles
> on the collar is repeated in the portrait. It looks like the collar in
> the
> Droeshout has been flattened down in the painting. The curve at the
> front of both collars is very similar.
>
> The line of fasteners down the front of the tunic is at a similar
> angle in both portraits. They also seem to be at the same spacing.
>
> I would expect the line of derivation to go from the less realistic
> (the Droeshout collar) to the more realistic (the naturalistic version
> in the portrait).
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
Was the first step in transforming Wriothesley:
http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
Into the DROESHOUT
HERODOTUS version.
Art Neuendorfffer
baker
so called Chess Portrait of Shakespeare...worth a gander folks...worth
a gander...
Paul Crowley
> Today at work I used a Mac to open two Internet windows, one with the new
> Shakespeare portrait and another open to Terry and Dave's Authorship Webpage
> with the Droeshut engraving. The two images happen to be exactly the same
> size on the monitor screen. I clicked on the engraving image and held the
> mouse button down and superimposed it over the new portrait.
>
> The two fit so well I suspect a forgery. The eyes, the nose, the
> mouth--everything is in perfect proportion.
Having gone through the same exercise, I want to disagree with
your phrase 'in perfect proportion'. The eyes and nose of the
Folio portrait are much bigger. The 'Red-head' chin is much
larger and more masculine.
> The cheeks of the Droeshut
> portrait were a little chubbier, but the skull dimensions were perfect. Even
> the 3/4 views fit exactly.
They fit -- but far from 'exactly'. The 'skull' of the Folio is
hopelessly unrealistic. No portrait that pretends to be one
of a living person could show a skull like that. So, for the 'red-
head' it has been substantially altered.
> The only difference in the eyes is that the Droeshut's eyes are a little
> rounder and have bags underneath them. It seems to me that bags under the
> eyes would be present in a 39-year-old man.
>
> There's something going on here. To me, it appears as if one was the model
> for the other. Unless both artists were extremely accurate, I don't see how
> one could not have derived from the other, especially given the excat
> duplication of the 3/4 view. Whether the painting derived from the engraving
> or vice versa, I'm sure we'll find out as the drama unfolds.
One is undoubtedly a copy of the other. Although the nose of
the 'red-head' is smaller, it is otherwise almost an exact copy,
with the same angle, extent of 'regularity', pointed tip and
distinct nostril flanges. Likewise, the 'moustache' is identical.
One of the most distinctive feature of the Folio portrait is the
utterly strange 'bridge of the nose', with its two sides curving
up into the eyebrows. (This _never_ occurs in real life.) Yet
that has been copied into the 'red-head' -- if much softened.
This 'red-head portrait' is just yet another in the very long line
of fake portraits of Shakespeare, created by someone looking
at the Folio and attempting to draw a picture of what they think
the man really ought to have looked like. The 'red-head' is
not a portrait of a real live human being. No one who looks at
it for more than a few seconds should be taken in. It is such
an obvious copy of the Folio portrait, that I doubt if the
originators intended to pass it off in a fraudulent manner.
The apparent cutting-off of the sitter's left arm could well
have been for the purpose of removing details indicating the
portrait's true nature.
Paul.
--
Email: pebj...@ubgznvy.pbz (apply ROT13)
KQKnave
my copy of Schoenbaum's CDL. It was made by
George Vertue in the 18th century, and it shows
Shakespeare with what looks like a similar
Bozo the clown type hair style. What this means,
I don't know.
Jim
Elizabeth Weir
I've seen the same design in other Elizabethan collars.
Droeshout was too young to have done the Shakespeare engraving from life. I
think the painting came first and the engraving was made from it.
The Droeshout engraving shows Shakespeare with light eyes while the subject
of the painting has the unusual coloring of Elizabeth, dark eyes and red
hair. I don't think it's one of her illegitimate sons.
"Pat Dooley" <patd...@nospam.allowed.nls.net>
>
[snip]
Clark
> One of the most distinctive feature of the Folio portrait is the
> utterly strange 'bridge of the nose', with its two sides curving
> up into the eyebrows. (This _never_ occurs in real life.) Yet
> that has been copied into the 'red-head' -- if much softened.
And yet, that's how the bridge of the nose looks on this portrait of
Elizabeth I:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/images/eliz.JPG
And this self-portrait by Richard Burbage:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/images/Burbage.JPG
And this Hillard minature:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/images/hilliard.JPG
And, of course, the Chandos Portrait:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/images/CHANDOS.jpg
- Clark
Visit my Shakespeare web page at:
http://members.home.net/cjh5801/Shakespeare.htm
Elizabeth Weir
wrote:
[[snip]
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
>
> Was the first step in transforming Wriothesley:
>
> http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
>
> Into the DROESHOUT
> HERODOTUS version.
>
>Art Neuendorfffer
I opened the link above and said woh! There is a major resemblance
between the Wriothesley portrait and the new Shakespeare portrait.
Both subjects have Elizabeth's features and her unusual combination of
dark eyes and red hair.
Are we saying that Wriothesley is Elizabeth's last bastard?
II don't get the Herodotus connection. I read Herodotus
and he was not Thucydides. Why would Wriothesley
be the second best Greek historian? Oh. Droeshout is
iHerodotus. [see anagram, duh]. A distorter of events. Droeshout's
engraving is a perfect visual for Bacon's general description of the
four idola. And Herodotus probably gave Bacon the idea. Is there
another connection between Wriothesley and Herodutus or did
I get the message?
Why would Wriothesley have to be transformed?
IFor what? It was a little late for succession by the
time the FF was published.
I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
ridiculous Droeshout cartoon [has anybody noticed the little fringe
of beard--exactly like Wriothesley's--that protrudes along the
edge of the mask just below the ear?] and the mock encomium
and other prankish business that fairly shouts 'something else
is going on here' but Jonson wouldn't put a production like that
together in Oxford's memory. Jonson did not like Oxford. See The
Staple of News.
I can definitely see a motive for Bacon to include Southampton
as the third and invisible dedicatee [is that a word?], ie, makeup
for the Essex castrophe. But how is Southampton made imortal if his
name isn't on it. [Only his face under the Shakespeare mask].
I need more clues.
Neuendorffer
<<In Jimmy Carter's autobiography there is a photograph of Carter as a
young boy: beaming as he cradles his beloved Boston bulldog, Bozo (''the
best squirrel-hunter in the Plains community'')>>
<<During the American election campaign of 1992, President Bush
delivered a scathing verdict on Messrs Clinton and Gore: "My dog Millie
knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos.">>
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
> >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
> >
> > Was the first step in transforming Wriothesley:
> >
> > http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
> >
> > Into the DROESHOUT
> > HERODOTUS version.
Elizabeth Weir wrote:
>
> I opened the link above and said woh! There is a major resemblance
> between the Wriothesley portrait and the new Shakespeare portrait.
> Both subjects have Elizabeth's features and her unusual combination of
> dark eyes and red hair.
Yes, I think so. Thanks for your support.
> Are we saying that Wriothesley is Elizabeth's last bastard?
Many people think so.
But then that would not explain the key roll
played by Wriothesley's actual mum:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Like Romeo Henry Wriothesley was the son & heir of MONTAGU's:
And as widow of the Treasurer of the Chamber (Thomas Heneage d.1592)
Southampton's mother (Mary Browne MONTAGU Wriothesley Heneage)
paid William Shakespeare 20 pounds FOR WORK NOT DONE:
<<1595-3-15:Royal record. An entry in the accounts of the Treasurer of
the Chamber reads: "To William Kempe, William Shakespeare and Richard
Burbage, servaunts to the Lord Chamberleyne, upon the Councille's
warrant dated at Whitehall XVth Marcij 1594, for two severall comedies
or enterludes shewed by them before her majestie in Christmas tyme
laste part viz St. Stephen's daye and Innocents daye..." (Public
Record Office, Pipe Office, Declared Accounts No. 542, f. 207b).>>
------------------------------------------------------------
NEVILLE, thy will ne-vile, or vain brings brings forth:
Sith vile things little, vain are Nothing worth.
http://home.att.net/~tleary/northclb.htm
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/northumberland.html
http://www.sirbacon.org/graphics/key-plate.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------
Motto: "NE VILE VELIS"
(NOT VILE IS THY WILL)
----------------------------------------------------------------
John Neville --------- Isabel
(Northumberland) | INGOLDESTHORPE
(Marquis MONTAGU) |
|
Anthony Browne ------------- Lucy Neville
1485 - 1506 |
|
/--------------------------------\
| | Anne BROWNE--- Charles
| | /- Brandon -\
| | Mary Tudor-/ (LISLE) |
| | |
Anthony Browne --- Alice Lucy --- Thomas Clifford |
L.ISLE of Man | Gage Browne |
d. 1548 | Katherine |
| Richard Bertie--- Willoughby ---/
| |
/-----------------------------\ Peregrine---Mary de Vere
| | Bertie (Ed's sis)
| Jane |
Anthony Browne --- Ratcliff Lucy Browne--Thomas Roper
d. 1592 |
|
Thomas --- MARY BROWNE --- Henry Wriothesley
Heneage / | (Southampton)
d.1592 / |
/ Henry Wriothesley
W. Harvey---/ (Southampton)
(Mr.W.H.) Bart
(later Ross)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mashell.com/~madison/dat178.html
http://familyclan.net/browne.htm
<<MARY BROWNE, only daughter by his first wife, married
first, Henry Wriothesley, Earl of Southampton,
secondly, Sir Thomas Heneage, Knight,
thirdly, Sir William Harvey Bart who was created Baron Ross.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't get the Herodotus connection. I read Herodotus
> and he was not Thucydides. Why would Wriothesley
> be the second best Greek historian? Oh. Droeshout is
> Herodotus. [see anagram, duh]. A distorter of events.
Butta-bing!
HERODOTUS was the first "historian" a.k.a. the Father of Lies!
> Droeshout's engraving is a perfect visual
> for Bacon's general description of the four idola.
> And Herodotus probably gave Bacon the idea.
They were just good friends.
> Is there another connection between Wriothesley and Herodotus
> or did I get the message?
>
> Why would Wriothesley have to be transformed?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For according to my 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_ Herodotus had
a lot to say about TRAGEDY (i.e., a goat-song) being
a PATHOS (i.e., the violent death of Dionysus/Osiris
by "sparagmos or dismemberment):
<<. . .we have the express testimony of HERODOTUS that the ritual
worship of Dionysus (the god of Drama) was the same as the ritual
worship of Osiris such that it involved a sparagmos(dismemberment),
mourning, search, discovery and resurrection.>> -- Drama article in
1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_
However, Herodotus avoided directly mentioning
Dionysus OR Osiris in this regard:
"When the Egyptians lament the god whom I may not name in this
connection"
"They lament but whom they lament I must not say" -- Herodotus
For in the manner of ancient religion, it was always necessary
that Dionysus or Osiris be represented by some surrogate.
In fact, ALL TRAGIC HEROS are simply surrogates of Dionysus/Osiris:
<<We find a frequent sparagmos of beings who have committed some sin:
Pentheus by Maenads
Orpheus by Maenads
Lycurgus by horses
Hyppolytus by horses
Dirce by a bull
Actaeon by hounds. . .
This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING. Such facts help to explain the charge of
"profaning the mysteries" which was brought against Aeschylus.>> -
Drama in 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_
---------------------------------------------------
> For what? It was a little late for succession by the
> time the FF was published.
Southampton didn't want to be king. . . he wanted immortality.
> I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
> ridiculous Droeshout cartoon
What makes you think Jonson is real?
(How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave?)
> [has anybody noticed the little fringe
> of beard--exactly like Wriothesley's--that protrudes along the
> edge of the mask just below the ear?] and the mock encomium
> and other prankish business that fairly shouts 'something else
> is going on here' but Jonson wouldn't put a production like that
> together in Oxford's memory. Jonson did not like Oxford. See The
> Staple of News.
"Jonson" did not like Shakespeare either but he praised him after
death.
> I can definitely see a motive for Bacon to include Southampton
> as the third and invisible dedicatee [is that a word?], ie, makeup
> for the Essex castrophe. But how is Southampton made imortal if his
> name isn't on it. [Only his face under the Shakespeare mask].
>
> I need more clues.
---------------------------------------------------
The DROESHOUT/HERODOTUS 'anagram' involves a
"sparagmos(dismemberment) and resurrection." The Martin Droeshout
portrait of Shakespeare with it's two right eyes & two left shoulders
qualifies as well. In fact, Droeshout's portrait appears to be a
"sparagmos and resurrection"
of Southampton & Oxford portraits combined:
(Printed at the bottom of the DROESHOUT:)
"MArTiN DrOeSHOUT:sculPsit"
"ris MATNOSHOUTP" + "Dreculsit"
"sir SOUTHAMPTON" + "sir Dulcet"
---------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
"MArTiN (d)rOeSHOUT"
"SOUTHAM(p)TON rire"
---------------------------------------------------
Neuendorffer wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3B02756B...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
I hate to disappoint you, Art, but "Martin Droeshout" contains no
occurrence of the letter "p," so seeking an anagram naming Southampton
is a fool's errand. I assume that that's why you undertook it?
HoweVER, a genuine anagram of "Martin Droeshout" is
"I'm Herodotus. -- Art N."
Since Herodotus was widely criticized for confusing fantasy with
history, this anagram is quite plausible from the standpoint of
content. It also merits a score of 13/15 according to the idiotic
Neuendorffer proper name criterion.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The DROESHOUT/HERODOTUS 'anagram' involves a
> > > "sparagmos(dismemberment) and resurrection." The Martin Droeshout
> > > portrait of Shakespeare with it's two right eyes & two left shoulders
> > > qualifies as well. In fact, Droeshout's portrait appears to be a
> > > "sparagmos and resurrection"
> > > of Southampton & Oxford portraits combined:
> > >
> > > (Printed at the bottom of the DROESHOUT:)
> > > "MArTiN DrOeSHOUT:sculPsit"
> > > "ris MATNOSHOUTP" + "Dreculsit"
> > > "sir SOUTHAMPTON" + "sir Dulcet"
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > "MArTiN (d)rOeSHOUT"
> > "SOUTHAM(p)TON rire"
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> I hate to disappoint you, Art, but "Martin Droeshout" contains no
> occurrence of the letter "p," so seeking an anagram naming Southampton
> is a fool's errand. I assume that that's why you undertook it?
------------------------------------------------------------------
The white of (P)elops' shoulder: I could tell ye,
------------------------------------------------------------------
_HERO AND LEANDER_ - Marlowe
64 So was his neck in touching, and surpast
65 The white of Pelops' shoulder: I could tell ye,
-------------------------------------------------------
<<Torwards the end of the Trojan war, Helenus told the Greeks that they
must fetch the sacred ivory shoulder blade of Pelops from Pisa and bring
it to Troy if they were to win. This was done but while the bone was
being returned to Pisa the ship carrying the bone was wrecked off Euboea
in a storm. Years later a fisherman from Eretria named Damarmenus drew
the bone up from the sea. For some time he kept it hidden in the sand,
but eventually Damarmenus relinquished it to envoys from plague ridden
Elis (who were following instructions from the oracle at Delphi). The
plague was lifted and Damarmeus was even made custodian of the sacred
bone.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------
Droeshout Portrait
<<Among the oddities that have been cited in support of revisionist
theories is the design of the figure's shirt, which appears to have
two left sleeves.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.biblepreaching.com/twobabylons/sect52.htm
<<In Greece, the superstitious regard to relics, and especially to the
bones of the deified heroes, was a conspicuous part of the popular
idolatry. The work of Pausanias, the learned Grecian antiquary, is full
of reference to this superstition. Thus, of the shoulder-blade of
PELOPS, we read that, after passing through divers adventures, being
appointed by the oracle of Delphi, as a divine means of delivering the
Eleans from a pestilence under which they suffered, it "was committed,"
as a sacred relic, "to the custody" of the man who had fished it out of
the sea, and of his posterity after him.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
William Oxley: The Shoulder of Pelops
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc/lynx/lynx68.html
<<A brief reminder of the myth. Tantalus, beloved of the Gods, invited
them to dinner: determined on a meal with a difference. Every host will
know the feeling - hostesses perhaps even more so - but none are likely
to go as far as Tantalus who killed his son Pelops, cut him up, boiled
and served him as a ragoût extraordinaire. The Immortals - heavenly
palates untitillated - knowing all things, refused to touch the meal;
all save Demeter that is who, distracted with grief at the recent loss
of her daughter, inadvertently tucked into the meal before the other
Gods could stop her, and ate Pelops' shoulder. Then Zeus had Tantalus
arrested and jailed forever among the immortal dead. After which the
Olympian chief ordered Hermes - with whom Pelops' soul now was - to
collect the dismembered pieces and place them in a cauldron, re-heat
same, and thereby bring
Pelops back to life.
When this remarkable process of re-heating was over, Clotho - she of the
three Fates whose job it is to spin the thread of a man's life - took
the restored Pelops out of the cauldron and, as one shoulder was
missing, fitted him up with an ivory replacement. Thereafter, all his
descendants, the Pelopidae, as a mark of their origin were supposed to
have one shoulder as white as ivory. Which mark became known as the
curse of the Pelopidae. And it was a curse that was to have a profound
influence on shaping the destiny of Ancient Greece and, by implication,
that of us all.
Now, like any myth, that of Pelops operates on a number of levels; has
many strands. For example, it is not difficult to interpret this myth in
`historical' terms, it being easy enough to trace the influence of the
curse (which the ivory shoulder symbolises) down through the House of
Atreus to the fall of Troy, and beyond to the death of King Agamemnon by
the hand of his wife at Mycenae. It is central, in fact to the aetiology
of a number of misfortunes that afflicted the Greece of the ancient
world: and was obviously of such significance - or, rather the Pelopidae
were - that the afflicted gave their name eventually to the whole
Peleponesus.
Certain features of the myth, however, clearly indicate that this is
also a myth of process. A deep structural representation of the process
of poetic creativity: the key to which interpretation lying in the use
of the cauldron of re-birth or inspiration. This subject I have dealt
with at greater length in my book The Cauldron of Inspiration,
where I trace the recurrence of the cauldron motif in many different
literatures and myths. For example, its appearance in the Celtic myths
as recorded in The Mabinogion, whereby the men of the Island of the
Mighty (Britain) use it as a means of restoring dead warriors to life,
clearly signifies it as the cauldron of re-birth. Then its use by the
witches in MacBeth as a means of prophecy or inspiration indicates
another mythological dimension of it. But most of all the cauldron
operates in these literatures of myth as a symbol of poetic creativity.
For every poem is a re-birth of the poet's self in words; which is why
poetry - indeed every art - is regarded as creative. A poem is not born
- only poets are born - but is a ritual re-birth out of the imagination.
The story of the transformation of Gwion into Taliesin, again in The
Mabinogion, is a further and very precise myth of the process, and
involves a cauldron. In Celtic literature the cauldron vies easily with
the fountain as chief symbol of inspiration and the imagination. In
Hellenic literature the fountain is the more frequent symbol; but as the
myth of Pelops shows, the cauldron does occur as well. It is even
possible that this, among the most ancient of all the Greek myths, shows
a direct Celtic influence; for it is an established fact that, in the
third millenium B.C., the great Celtic migrations began in Eastern
Europe - possibly in the region of the Caucasus - so that the original
Pelasgian inhabitants of Greece, which included the tribe of the
Pelopidae, may well have been Celtic. Consequently, it may be
historically true - or mythologically correct, if it is preferred - that
the cauldron is actually older than the fountain as symbol of the
imagination.
Be that as it may, the cauldron of re-birth is certainly the key to the
poetic interpretation of this particular myth. But what of the ivory
shoulder? This is equally interesting and suggestive, for two reasons.
Firstly, because of the idea of its being a curse. Secondly, because
earlier Tantalus had been expelled from Phrygia in Asia Minor and had
settled at Pisa in Elis on the Greek mainland. At first sight these two
factors may not seem to be linked; but if it be recalled that Greek
philosophy was born in Ionia, the coastal strip of Phrygia, and if one
reads the following passage from The White Goddess of Robert Graves, the
connection should become plainer:
`What interests me most ... is the difference that is constantly
appearing between the poetic and prosaic methods of thought. The prosaic
method was invented by the Greeks of the Classical age as an insurance
against the swamping of reason by mythographic fancy. It has now become
the only legitimate means of trnsmitting useful knowledge. And in
England, as in most other mercantile countries, the current popular view
is that "music" and old-fashioned diction are the only characteristics
of poetry which distinguish it from prose: that every poem has, or
should have, a precise single-strand prose equivalent. As a result, the
poetic faculty is atrophied in every educated person who does not
struggle to cultivate it ... From the inability to think poetically - to
resolve speech into its original images and rhythms and recombine them
on several simultaneous levels of thought into a multiple sense -
derives the failure to think clearly in prose. ... This simple need is
forgotten, what passes for simple prose nowadays is a mechanical
stringing together of stereotyped wordgroups, without regard for the
images contained in them. The mechanical style, which began in the
counting-house, has now infiltrated into the university, some of its
most zombiesque instances occuring in the works of eminent scholars and
divines.' What Graves is clearly hinting at in this passage is the curse
of Pelops - the ivory or mechanical shoulder of Greek and, by
implication, of Western poetry (I leave aside the further twist of the
decline of prose as well, with which the latter part of the passage is
concerned). It is Graves' view that the philosophical and `prosaic
method' of thought is a blemish on the otherwise perfectly created
corpus poetica. Furthermore, he traces the continuance of this blemish,
as the passage indicates, down to the present day. And the very choice
of phrases he uses in the passage, even when speaking of prose (though
prose he says should be poetry-nourished), like `mechanical stringing
together', the `most zombiesque instances', have a remarkable affinity
with the idea of the mechanical or false shoulder of Pelops. But I will
stretch the point no further.
Now, while I am convinced that there is a distinct tendency - when it
suits them - on the part of poets to discount the role of philosophy;
just as there is an equal tendency for poets to play up the importance
of prose (c.f. Eliot: `To have the virtues of good prose is the first
and minimum requirement of good poetry'); I am, nevertheless, convinced
that Graves is basically right in what he says. Except for the fact that
I am of the opinion that philosophy is the necessary sister - or perhaps
I should say brother - discipline of the Muses, I agree that prose is
the ivory shoulder of Pelops, as far as poetry is concerned. For there
is only one subject - which, in truth, is not so much a subject as an
attitude - that has no part in poetry and that is prose. Prose is the
curse of poetry that runs through all the ages down to the present. The
Pelopidae live, and have perhaps never been more prevalent than today -
as Graves suggests.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Clambering to hang, an "enviouS Sliver" broke;
Chop up "enviou(S) (S)liver" and substitute an "R" for one "S(houlder)"
=> "ve(R)o nil veriu(S)"
Chop up "ve(R)o nil veriu(S)" & substitute a "G" for other "S(houlder)"
=> "ou(R) ever-livin(G)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Greg Reynolds
Neuendorffer wrote:
> KQKnave wrote:
> >
> > There is a portrait of Shakespeare on the cover of
> > my copy of Schoenbaum's CDL. It was made by
> > George Vertue in the 18th century, and it shows
> > Shakespeare with what looks like a similar
> > Bozo the clown type hair style. What this means,
> > I don't know.
>
> <<In Jimmy Carter's autobiography there is a photograph of Carter as a
> young boy: beaming as he cradles his beloved Boston bulldog, Bozo (''the
> best squirrel-hunter in the Plains community'')>>
Art, did you know that John Gacy, the killer clown, had a
picture of himself in clownwear standing next to Roslyn Carter
framed on the wall when his house was excavated?
> <<During the American election campaign of 1992, President Bush
> delivered a scathing verdict on Messrs Clinton and Gore: "My dog Millie
> knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos.">>
Funny Millie never covered it in "her" book. In what year did
his son George pose for the Alfred E. Neuman portrait?
Greg Reynolds
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3B0263C7...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > >>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_
> > >cpt111.html
> > >
> > > Was the first step in transforming Wriothesley:
> > >
> > > http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
> > >
> > > Into the DROESHOUT
> > > HERODOTUS version.
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> >
> > I opened the link above and said woh! There is a major resemblance
> > between the Wriothesley portrait and the new Shakespeare portrait.
> > Both subjects have Elizabeth's features and her unusual combination of
> > dark eyes and red hair.
> Yes, I think so. Thanks for your support.
> > Are we saying that Wriothesley is Elizabeth's last bastard?
> Many people think so.
What about you, Art? Do you think so? Mr. Streitz has suggested
that Oxford was Elizabeth's son as well as her loVER, and Rutland's
twin brother as well. Did the Queen actually give birth to triplets,
Art? Inquiring minds want to know.
I've asked you before, Art, but you've neVER answered: did Terry
Ross enter the conspiracy via lineal descent from W. Harvey? Inquiring
minds want to know.
> > I don't get the Herodotus connection. I read Herodotus
> > and he was not Thucydides. Why would Wriothesley
> > be the second best Greek historian? Oh. Droeshout is
> > Herodotus. [see anagram, duh]. A distorter of events.
> Butta-bing!
>
> HERODOTUS was the first "historian" a.k.a. the Father of Lies!
I've pointed out before that "Martin Droeshout" is an anagram of
I'm Herodotus. -- Art N.
Thus the identity of the Father of Lies is confirmed.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> For according to my 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_ Herodotus had
> a lot to say about TRAGEDY (i.e., a goat-song)
And Neuendorffer has a lot to say about a cock-and-bull story.
[...]
> In fact, ALL TRAGIC HEROS are simply surrogates of Dionysus/Osiris:
>
> <<We find a frequent sparagmos of beings who have committed some sin:
> Pentheus by Maenads
> Orpheus by Maenads
> Lycurgus by horses
> Hyppolytus by horses
> Dirce by a bull
> Actaeon by hounds. . .
> This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
> and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
> shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
> Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
> Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
> VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.
You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
[...]
> > I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
> > ridiculous Droeshout cartoon
> What makes you think Jonson is real?
> (How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave?)
You doubt that Jonson was real, Art?!
> > [has anybody noticed the little fringe
> > of beard--exactly like Wriothesley's--that protrudes along the
> > edge of the mask just below the ear?] and the mock encomium
> > and other prankish business that fairly shouts 'something else
> > is going on here' but Jonson wouldn't put a production like that
> > together in Oxford's memory. Jonson did not like Oxford. See The
> > Staple of News.
> "Jonson" did not like Shakespeare either but he praised him after
> death.
Then just who *was* "Jonson," Art?
> > I can definitely see a motive for Bacon to include Southampton
> > as the third and invisible dedicatee [is that a word?], ie, makeup
> > for the Essex castrophe. But how is Southampton made imortal if his
> > name isn't on it. [Only his face under the Shakespeare mask].
> >
> > I need more clues.
True -- she doesn't have a clue.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > >
> > > There is a portrait of Shakespeare on the cover of
> > > my copy of Schoenbaum's CDL. It was made by
> > > George Vertue in the 18th century, and it shows
> > > Shakespeare with what looks like a similar
> > > Bozo the clown type hair style. What this means,
> > > I don't know.
> Neuendorffer wrote:
>
> > <<In Jimmy Carter's autobiography there is a photograph of Carter as a
> > young boy: beaming as he cradles his beloved Boston bulldog, Bozo (''the
> > best squirrel-hunter in the Plains community'')>>
Greg Reynolds wrote:
>
> Art, did you know that John Gacy, the killer clown, had a
> picture of himself in clownwear standing next to Roslyn Carter
> framed on the wall when his house was excavated?
That was Pogo - a different clown entirely.
> > <<During the American election campaign of 1992, President Bush
> > delivered a scathing verdict on Messrs Clinton and Gore: "My dog
> > Millie knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos.">>
>
> Funny Millie never covered it in "her" book.
You read Millie's book?
> In what year did
> his son George pose for the Alfred E. Neuman portrait?
That was Prince Charles in 1958.
Mr Ozone - Art Neuendorffer
“Mr Ozone is so far off in the environmental extreme we would be up to
our neck in owls. This guy is crazy. Way out. Far out man.” - George
Bush Sr.
Neuendorffer
>
>>>>>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
> > > >
> > > > Into the DROESHOUT
> > > > HERODOTUS version.
>
> > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > >
> > > I opened the link above and said woh! There is a major resemblance
> > > between the Wriothesley portrait and the new Shakespeare portrait.
> > > Both subjects have Elizabeth's features and her unusual combination of
> > > dark eyes and red hair.
>
> > Yes, I think so. Thanks for your support.
>
> > > Are we saying that Wriothesley is Elizabeth's last bastard?
>
> > Many people think so.
"David L. Webb" wrote:
>
> What about you, Art? Do you think so?
No.
> Mr. Streitz has suggested
> that Oxford was Elizabeth's son as well as her loVER, and Rutland's
> twin brother as well.
Mr. Streitz doesn't understand how airplanes fly as well
(; it ain't 'Bernoulli' according to Paul).
(I'll bet Paul knows 567,345,675 isn't a prime, however.)
Why don't you ask Terry, Dave.
> > > I don't get the Herodotus connection. I read Herodotus
> > > and he was not Thucydides. Why would Wriothesley
> > > be the second best Greek historian? Oh. Droeshout is
> > > Herodotus. [see anagram, duh]. A distorter of events.
>
> > Butta-bing!
> >
> > HERODOTUS was the first "historian" a.k.a. the Father of Lies!
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For according to my 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_ Herodotus had
> > a lot to say about TRAGEDY (i.e., a goat-song)
>
> And Neuendorffer has a lot to say about a cock-and-bull story.
> > In fact, ALL TRAGIC HEROS are simply surrogates of Dionysus/Osiris:
> >
> > <<We find a frequent sparagmos of beings who have committed some sin:
> > Pentheus by Maenads
> > Orpheus by Maenads
> > Lycurgus by horses
> > Hyppolytus by horses
> > Dirce by a bull
> > Actaeon by hounds. . .
> > This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
> > and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
> > shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
> > Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
> > Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
> > VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.
>
> You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
Butta-bing!
> > > I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
> > > ridiculous Droeshout cartoon
>
> > What makes you think Jonson is real?
> > (How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave?)
>
> You doubt that Jonson was real, Art?!
How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave, Dave?
> > > [has anybody noticed the little fringe
> > > of beard--exactly like Wriothesley's--that protrudes along the
> > > edge of the mask just below the ear?] and the mock encomium
> > > and other prankish business that fairly shouts 'something else
> > > is going on here' but Jonson wouldn't put a production like that
> > > together in Oxford's memory. Jonson did not like Oxford. See The
> > > Staple of News.
>
> > "Jonson" did not like Shakespeare either but he praised him after
> > death.
>
> Then just who *was* "Jonson," Art?
Someone else with the same name:
-------------------------------------------------------------
<<According to the Dossiers Secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters
of the Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession. One of the
Grand Masters on the list, Leonardo da Vinci, displayed a strong
interest in John the Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became
preoccupied with the writings of the Apocalypse, then attributed to
John the Evangelist.>>
http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/scripts/sion.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > I can definitely see a motive for Bacon to include Southampton
> > > as the third and invisible dedicatee [is that a word?], ie, makeup
> > > for the Essex castrophe. But how is Southampton made imortal if his
> > > name isn't on it. [Only his face under the Shakespeare mask].
> > >
> > > I need more clues.
>
> True -- she doesn't have a clue.
Hey, hey, hey, Boo-boo.
Art Neuendorffer
Greg Reynolds
Neuendorffer wrote:
> > > KQKnave wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is a portrait of Shakespeare on the cover of
> > > > my copy of Schoenbaum's CDL. It was made by
> > > > George Vertue in the 18th century, and it shows
> > > > Shakespeare with what looks like a similar
> > > > Bozo the clown type hair style. What this means,
> > > > I don't know.
>
> > Neuendorffer wrote:
> >
> > > <<In Jimmy Carter's autobiography there is a photograph of Carter as a
> > > young boy: beaming as he cradles his beloved Boston bulldog, Bozo (''the
> > > best squirrel-hunter in the Plains community'')>>
>
> Greg Reynolds wrote:
> >
> > Art, did you know that John Gacy, the killer clown, had a
> > picture of himself in clownwear standing next to Roslyn Carter
> > framed on the wall when his house was excavated?
>
> That was Pogo - a different clown entirely.
Bozo from WGN shot his last show last week. No more Bozo.
Those are going to be big shoes to fill.
But, Art....
"You can do it"
--Bela Korolyi
> > > <<During the American election campaign of 1992, President Bush
> > > delivered a scathing verdict on Messrs Clinton and Gore: "My dog
> > > Millie knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos.">>
> >
> > Funny Millie never covered it in "her" book.
>
> You read Millie's book?
I was just bowwowsing.
> > In what year did
> > his son George pose for the Alfred E. Neuman portrait?
>
> That was Prince Charles in 1958.
But, Art, 1958 anagrams to 1589.
> Mr Ozone - Art Neuendorffer
The layered look.
> “Mr Ozone is so far off in the environmental extreme we would be up to
> our neck in owls. This guy is crazy. Way out. Far out man.” - George
> Bush Sr.
Not a birder. Wouldn't be prudent.
Elizabeth Weir
news:160520011859389220%David....@Dartmouth.edu...
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <3B0263C7...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
> (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>
> > >
>>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_
> > > >cpt111.html
> > > >
> > > > Was the first step in transforming Wriothesley:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
> > > >
> > > > Into the DROESHOUT
> > > > HERODOTUS version.
>
> > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > >
> > > I opened the link above and said woh! There is a major resemblance
> > > between the Wriothesley portrait and the new Shakespeare portrait.
> > > Both subjects have Elizabeth's features and her unusual combination
> [...]
They sacrificed Wriothesley?
> You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
I'm slammin' that door.
> [...]
> > > I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
> > > ridiculous Droeshout cartoon
>
> > What makes you think Jonson is real?
> > (How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave?)
Jonson stopped dining at Court after his parody of James premiered.
> You doubt that Jonson was real, Art?!
Jonson didn't really write his works but Oxford wrote Shakespeare's works?
Who wrote Oxford's works?
> > > [has anybody noticed the little fringe
> > > of beard--exactly like Wriothesley's--that protrudes along the
> > > edge of the mask just below the ear?] and the mock encomium
> > > and other prankish business that fairly shouts 'something else
> > > is going on here' but Jonson wouldn't put a production like that
> > > together in Oxford's memory. Jonson did not like Oxford. See The
> > > Staple of News.
>
> > "Jonson" did not like Shakespeare either but he praised him after
> > death.
> Then just who *was* "Jonson," Art?
>
> > > I can definitely see a motive for Bacon to include Southampton
> > > as the third and invisible dedicatee [is that a word?], ie, makeup
> > > for the Essex castrophe. But how is Southampton made imortal if his
> > > name isn't on it. [Only his face under the Shakespeare mask].
> > >
> > > I need more clues.
>
> True -- she doesn't have a clue.
Logically, if I asked for more clues it
indicates that I have no less than one clue.
Maybe that isn't covered at Dartmouth.
Neuendorffer
> > >
> > > <<We find a frequent sparagmos of beings who have committed some sin:
> > > Pentheus by Maenads
> > > Orpheus by Maenads
> > > Lycurgus by horses
> > > Hyppolytus by horses
> > > Dirce by a bull
> > > Actaeon by hounds. . .
> > > This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
> > > and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
> > > shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
> > > Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
> > > Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
> > > VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.
Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> They sacrificed Wriothesley?
He spent two years in the tower if that's what you mean.
> > You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
> > > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > > > I don't see an Oxford connection. Jonson is responsible for the
> > > > ridiculous Droeshout cartoon
> >
> > > What makes you think Jonson is real?
> > > (How could anyone fat fit in a 2 x 2 grave?)
>
> Jonson stopped dining at Court after his parody of James premiered.
>
> > You doubt that Jonson was real, Art?!
>
> Jonson didn't really write his works but Oxford wrote Shakespeare's works?
> Who wrote Oxford's works?
A very very young Vere.
Art N.
Neuendorffer
>
> Bozo from WGN shot his last show last week. No more Bozo.
> Those are going to be big shoes to fill.
> But, Art....
> "You can do it" --Bela Korolyi
Fine by me. . .if John agrees to do "Cooky the Clown."
http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,2-50735,FF.html
Side Show Art
David L. Webb
<elizabe...@mail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > > This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
> > > and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
> > > shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
> > > Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
> > > Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
> > > VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.
> They sacrificed Wriothesley?
> > You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
In article <3B0313B4...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
responded:
> Butta-bing!
> I'm slammin' that door.
Then you wan't get very far in trying to understand Art, whose
elaborate conspiracy theory involves the Priory, the Illuminati, and
many other entertaining cabals. See Art's response quoted above.
[...]
> > > > I need more clues.
> > True -- she doesn't have a clue.
> Logically, if I asked for more clues it
> indicates that I have no less than one clue.
>
> Maybe that isn't covered at Dartmouth.
No; one is greater than zero.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > > > and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
> > > > shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
> > > > Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
> > > > Dionysus. THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE AND AT THE SAME TIME
> > > > VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.
> <elizabe...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > They sacrificed Wriothesley?
>
> > > You mean, the way the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion operate, Art?
>
> Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com> responded:
>
> > Butta-bing!
> <elizabe...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm slammin' that door.
"David L. Webb" wrote:
>
> Then you wan't get very far in trying to understand Art, whose
> elaborate conspiracy theory involves the Priory, the Illuminati, and
> many other entertaining cabals.
cabal, noun: French cabale cabala, intrigue, cabal, from Medieval Latin
cabbala cabala, from Late Hebrew qabbAlAh, literally, received (lore):
1614 : the artifices and intrigues of a group of persons secretly united
to bring about an overturn or usurpation especially in public affairs;
also : a group engaged in such artifices and intrigues.
``The measuring of the temple, a cabal found out but lately.'' --B.
Jonson.
> <elizabe...@mail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I need more clues.
>
> > > True -- she doesn't have a clue.
>
> > Logically, if I asked for more clues it
> > indicates that I have no less than one clue.
> >
> > Maybe that isn't covered at Dartmouth.
>
> No; one is greater than zero.
'Take some more tea,' the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.
'I've had nothing yet,' Alice replied in an offended tone, 'so I can't
take more.'
'You mean you can't take less ,' said the Hatter: 'it's very easy to
take more than nothing.'
'Nobody asked your opinion,' said Alice.
Art Neuendorffer