A Reminder: Why Shakespeare was the man history says he was

KQKnave

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Jan 25, 2002, 2:31:44 PM1/25/02

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Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:

His name on over forty title pages; his monument in Stratford;
Robert Greene's attack on Shakespeare in Greene's Groatsworth
of Wit (1592), where he paraphrases a play by Shakespeare; the
Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned by name
and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]
all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too"; Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said
"The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of
Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort," and who
called Shakespeare "one of our florishing metricians;" and
Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue is mightily
enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments and
resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer, Daniel,
Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
[notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's
"best Lyrick Poets" and "our best for tragedie" and among the
"best Poets for Comedy" and "the most passionate among us
to bewaile and bemoane the perplexities of Love;" and
Francis Beaumont (1608), who said "...here I would let slippe/
(If I had any in mee) schollershippe,/ And from all Learning keepe
these lines as cleere/ as Shakespeare's best are, which our
heires shall heare/ Preachers apte to their auditors to showe/
how farre sometimes a mortall man may goe/ by the dimme
light of Nature...,"

In addition:

That Jonson was acquainted with Shakespeare
personally is indisputable: Shakespeare's name
appears on the list of players who acted in
"Every Man in His Humour", and Jonson's
extended comments upon Shakespeare in his
"Timber" (see below) are proof of that: he
says that Shakespeare was "(indeed) honest,
and of an open, and free nature:" and that
he "loved the man".
Jonson's comments on his contemporaries were
typically a mix of praise and censure. Here
are some examples from "Conversations with
William Drummond":

"Samuel Daniel was a good honest man, had no
children: but no poet."

"That Michael Drayton's Poly-Olbion (if he had
performed what he promised to write, the deeds
of all the worthies) had been excellent: his
long verses pleased him not."

"He esteemeth John Donne the first poet in the
world, in some things: his verses of the lost
chain he hath by heart; and that passage of
'The Calm', that dust and feathers do not stir,
all was so quiet. Affirmeth Donne to have written
all his best pieces ere he was twenty-five
years old."

And many more. His comment on Shakespeare in
these conversations is quite typical:

"Shakespeare, in a play, brought in a number of men
saying they had suffered shipwreck in Bohemia, where there
is no sea near by some 100 miles."

In "Timber: or Discoveries", Jonson again mixes
criticism with praise:

"De Shakespeare Nostrat

I remember, the players have often
mentioned it as an honour to Shakespeare, that
in his writing (whatsoever he penned) he never
blotted out line. My answer hath been, would
he had blotted a thousand. Which they thought
a malevolent speech. I had not told posterity
this, but for their ignorance, who choose that
circumstance to commend their friend by,
wherein he most faulted. And to justify mine
own candour (for I loved the man, and do honour
his memory - on this side idolatry - as
much as any). He was (indeed) honest, and of
an open, and free nature: had an excellent
fancy; brave notions, and gentle expressions:
wherein he flowed with that facility, that
sometime it was necessary he should be
stopped: sufflaminandus erat; as Augustus said
of Haterius. His wit was in his own power;
would the rule of it had been so too. Many
times he fell into those things, could not escape
laughter: as when he said in the person of
Caesar, one speaking to him; "Caesar, thou
dost me wrong'. He replied: 'Caesar did never
wrong, but with just cause': and such like;
which were ridiculous. But he redeemed his
vices, with his virtues. There was ever more in
him to be praised, than to be pardoned."

Jonson clearly doesn't feel that the portrait
in the Folio does Shakespeare any justice
as far as portraying his wit, as his little poem
show:

"This Figure, that thou here seest put,
It was for gentle Shakespeare cut,
Wherein the Graver had a strife
with Nature, to out-doo the life :
O, could he but have drawne his wit
As well in brasse, as he hath hit
His face ; the Print would then surpasse
All, that was ever writ in brasse.
But, since he cannot, Reader, looke
Not on his Picture, but his Booke."

And finally, Jonson's masterful eulogy
for Shakespeare, where he seems to be
quite convinced that the man who acted in
his plays was a better playwright than
Marlowe, and worthy of Euripides and
Sophocles. Notice that he calls Shakespeare
the "sweet swan of Avon", not the "tempestuous
tin-miner of tuxbury" or some such.

"TO THE MEMORY OF MY BELOVED THE AUTHOR,
MR. WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE, AND WHAT HE
HATH LEFT US.

To draw no envy, Shakespeare, on thy name,
Am I thus ample to thy book and fame;
While I confess thy writings to be such
As neither man nor muse can praise too much;
'Tis true, and all men's suffrage. But these ways
Were not the paths I meant unto thy praise;
For seeliest ignorance on these may light,
Which, when it sounds at best, but echoes right;
Or blind affection, which doth ne'er advance
The truth, but gropes, and urgeth all by chance;
Or crafty malice might pretend this praise,
And think to ruin, where it seem'd to raise.
These are, as some infamous bawd or whore
Should praise a matron; what could hurt her more?
But thou art proof against them, and indeed,
Above th' ill fortune of them, or the need.
I therefore will begin. Soul of the age!
The applause, delight, the wonder of our stage!
My Shakespeare, rise! I will not lodge thee by
Chaucer, or Spenser, or bid Beaumont lie
A little further, to make thee a room:
Thou art a monument without a tomb,
And art alive still while thy book doth live
And we have wits to read and praise to give.
That I not mix thee so, my brain excuses,
I mean with great, but disproportion'd Muses,
For if I thought my judgment were of years,
I should commit thee surely with thy peers,
And tell how far thou didst our Lyly outshine,
Or sporting Kyd, or Marlowe's mighty line.
And though thou hadst small Latin and less Greek,
From thence to honour thee, I would not seek
For names; but call forth thund'ring Aeschylus,
Euripides and Sophocles to us;
Pacuvius, Accius, him of Cordova dead,
To life again, to hear thy buskin tread,
And shake a stage; or, when thy socks were on,
Leave thee alone for the comparison
Of all that insolent Greece or haughty Rome
Sent forth, or since did from their ashes come.
Triumph, my Britain, thou hast one to show
To whom all scenes of Europe homage owe.
He was not of an age but for all time!
And all the Muses still were in their prime,
When, like Apollo, he came forth to warm
Our ears, or like a Mercury to charm!
Nature herself was proud of his designs
And joy'd to wear the dressing of his lines,
Which were so richly spun, and woven so fit,
As, since, she will vouchsafe no other wit.
The merry Greek, tart Aristophanes,
Neat Terence, witty Plautus, now not please,
But antiquated and deserted lie,
As they were not of Nature's family.
Yet must I not give Nature all: thy art,
My gentle Shakespeare, must enjoy a part.
For though the poet's matter nature be,
His art doth give the fashion; and, that he
Who casts to write a living line, must sweat,
(Such as thine are) and strike the second heat
Upon the Muses' anvil; turn the same
(And himself with it) that he thinks to frame,
Or, for the laurel, he may gain a scorn;
For a good poet's made, as well as born;
And such wert thou. Look how the father's face
Lives in his issue, even so the race
Of Shakespeare's mind and manners brightly shines
In his well-turned, and true-filed lines;
In each of which he seems to shake a lance,
As brandish'd at the eyes of ignorance.
Sweet Swan of Avon! what a sight it were
To see thee in our waters yet appear,
And make those flights upon the banks of Thames,
That so did take Eliza and our James!
But stay, I see thee in the hemisphere
Advanc'd, and made a constellation there!
Shine forth, thou star of poets, and with rage
Or influence, chide or cheer the drooping stage;
Which, since thy flight from hence, hath mourn'd like night,
And despairs day, but for thy volume's light."

On the other hand, here is how the Earl of Oxenforde
sounded (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson):

Oxford to Burghley; [30 October 1584] (W247-8;F320-1,332).

(In hand of amanuensis)
It is not vnknowne to your Lordship that I haue entred into a
greate nomber of bondes to suche, as haue purchasyd landes
of me, to discharge them of all Incombraunces: And bycause
I stande indebtid vnto her Maiestie (as your Lordship knowythe)
many of ye said purchasers do greatly feare somme troble likely
to fall vppon them, by reason of her Maiestyes said debt, &
espesially if the Bondes of ye Lord Darcy and Sir William Walgraue
should be extendyd for the same, who haue two seuerall statutes
of great sommes for their discharge Wheruppon [diu] many of ye
said purchasers haue ben suters vnto me to procuer the discharginge
of her Maiestyes said Debt, and do seme very willinge to beare the
burden therof, yf by my meanes the same might be stalled paiable
at some convenyent dayes / I haue therfore thought good to
acquaynte your Lordship with this their suyte, requierynge moste
earnestly your Lordships furtheraunce in this behalfe, wherby I
shalbe vnburdened of a greate care, which I haue for the savynge
of my honor, And shall by this meanes also vnburden my wyves
Ioincture of yat charge which might happen herafter to be ymposyd
vppon ye same, yf god should call your Lordship and me away before her. /

(Oxford's hand takes over)
Yowre Lordships

(signed) Edward Oxenford (sec. f; 4+7)

Doesn't sound much like Shakespeare, does he? In fact he seems
to be the very business man that Oxfordians like to claim William
Shakespeare must have been, which I find to be...well, ironic. Are
there any letters in Shakespeare's hand showing him to be
as interested in money and tin mining as Oxenforde's letters show?
No. In fact, the only document in Shakespeare's hand is part of
a play, in his style, typical of his concerns and in every way
consistent with what we know about William Shakespeare's
writing.

See for yourself that the Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html

Agent Jim

Stephanie Caruana

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Jan 25, 2002, 3:22:16 PM1/25/02

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...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
--From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Stephanie Caruana
author/editor:
The Gemstone File of Bruce Roberts
http://gemstone-file.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comspamslam> wrote in message
news:20020125143144...@mb-ca.aol.com...

Bob Grumman

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Jan 25, 2002, 4:41:25 PM1/25/02

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"Stephanie Caruana" <spear-...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a2sepp$n22$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...

> ...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
> bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
> bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
> Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain
>

If you could read, imbecile, you'd see that he is not speaking of
Stratfordians but of BARDOLATORS. Whether his characterization is
correct or not, I'm not sure, but I sympathize with it. It is
exactly the same as that of those Oxfordians who believe that Oxford
was not just a world-class poet but two or more world-class
poets AND a world-class philosopher AND a legal mind of the first
rank AND the world's leading architect of Modern Democracy and
the Inventor of the sonnet form, blank verse drama and Human
Nature, and a superior doctor, gardener, horseman, fencer,
soldier, sailor . . . and proficient in seven thousand languages.
Not to mention the cleverest hoaxster in the history of mankind.
And greatest lover.

--Bob G.

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

KQKnave

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Jan 25, 2002, 4:51:58 PM1/25/02

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In article <a2sepp$n22$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, " Stephanie Caruana"
<spear-...@mindspring.com> writes:

>
>...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
>bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
>bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
>Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain
>

Typical. Rather than present any evidence for their nutty conspiracy
theories, Oxfordians prefer to quote a piece written 300 years after
the fact which simply denigrates the opposing side. It doesn't even
provide any counter evidence. In fact, quite probably, the piece was
written with a rather large tongue in cheek.

Neuendorffer

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Jan 25, 2002, 4:56:41 PM1/25/02

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KQKnave wrote:
>
> Here is how the Earl of Oxenforde

-------------------------------------------------------------
Here is how the illiterate Stratford boob sounded:

By me William Shakspeare

http://home.att.net/~tleary/sigs.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

Stephanie Caruana

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Jan 25, 2002, 6:47:56 PM1/25/02

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"Grumbledumbunny" <bobgr...@nut-n-but.net> wrote in message
news:28f3f1d9ec7f32608ca...@mygate.mailgate.org...

If you had read the entire book, Grumbledumbunny, you might just possibly
(??) be able to comprehend that the subject matter is Mark Twain's
reflections on the stooooopidity of the Stratfordian fetish.

Stephanie

Greg Reynolds

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Jan 25, 2002, 1:26:37 PM1/25/02

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...These Hanniballbusters, these Twainspotters, these bugs, these

bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these

bandoleers--Wait Sam, you already said bandoleers--they are trying
to compel everybody to Mark their Twain and hold him sugred.....
--From "Sam I Am?" by Mark Twain, the Confused

It took death to shut this idiot up. Long live death.
Greg Reynolds

Elizabeth Weir

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Jan 25, 2002, 9:37:46 PM1/25/02

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"Bob Grumman" <bobgr...@nut-n-but.net> wrote in message news:<28f3f1d9ec7f32608ca...@mygate.mailgate.org>...

> "Stephanie Caruana" <spear-...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:a2sepp$n22$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> > ...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
> > bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
> > bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
> > Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> > --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain

Very cool, Stephanie. I see you've adopted my tag line at the
bottom of your posts. Thanks for using * and not =. Oxford was a
fop while Bacon was a philosopher so I think -*-*- would please
Oxford.

> If you could read, imbecile, you'd see that he is not speaking of
> Stratfordians but of BARDOLATORS.

Stephanie is technically an "ideologue" not an "imbecile," Bob.
Stephie clearly has a high IQ and I daresay it's higher than your's
or mine. IQ is no defense against falling for an ideological romance.
It's not about brains, its about lacking skepticism. Even stupid
people
can have common sense.

> Whether his characterization is
> correct or not, I'm not sure, but I sympathize with it. It is
> exactly the same as that of those Oxfordians who believe that Oxford
> was not just a world-class poet but two or more world-class
> poets AND a world-class philosopher AND a legal mind of the first
> rank AND the world's leading architect of Modern Democracy and
> the Inventor of the sonnet form, blank verse drama and Human
> Nature, and a superior doctor, gardener, horseman, fencer,
> soldier, sailor . . . and proficient in seven thousand languages.
> Not to mention the cleverest hoaxster in the history of mankind.
> And greatest lover.

Except for that last part of which we cannot be sure, you've just
described
the great *polymath genius* Lord Bacon. I don't know how many
languages
Bacon could speak or read but he was fluent in the six languages of
the
plays.

Elizabeth

_____________________________________________________________________

"His imagination was fruitful and vivid; a temperament of the most
delicate sensibility, so excitable as to be affected by the slightest
alterations of the atmosphere."
____________________________________________Sir Henry Montagu________

Bob Grumman

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Jan 26, 2002, 2:14:39 PM1/26/02

to

> > > ...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
> > > bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers,
> these
> > > bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
> > > Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> > > --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain
> > >
> > If you could read, imbecile, you'd see that he is not speaking of
> > Stratfordians but of BARDOLATORS. Whether his characterization is
> > correct or not, I'm not sure, but I sympathize with it. It is
> > exactly the same as that of those Oxfordians who believe that Oxford
> > was not just a world-class poet but two or more world-class
> > poets AND a world-class philosopher AND a legal mind of the first
> > rank AND the world's leading architect of Modern Democracy and
> > the Inventor of the sonnet form, blank verse drama and Human
> > Nature, and a superior doctor, gardener, horseman, fencer,
> > soldier, sailor . . . and proficient in seven thousand languages.
> > Not to mention the cleverest hoaxster in the history of mankind.
> > And greatest lover.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> If you had read the entire book, Grumbledumbunny, you might just possibly
> (??) be able to comprehend that the subject matter is Mark Twain's
> reflections on the stooooopidity of the Stratfordian fetish.

Ah, so he thought everyone who believed Shakespeare was
Shakespeare was, among other things, "trying to compel

everybody to revere their Shakespeare and hold him sacred"

(though not, of course, a tenth as sacred as you wacks do)?

Bob Grumman

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Jan 26, 2002, 2:42:47 PM1/26/02

to

> Stephanie is technically an "ideologue" not an "imbecile," Bob.

imbecile: fool

> Stephie clearly has a high IQ and I daresay it's higher than yours
> or mine.

IQ has little to do with intelligence by any sane definition
of the latter, Elizabeth. I believe, however, that total illogic
is, to a degree, measured and negatively scored by most IQ tests.
Not that I see much evidence of any other kind of a high IQ in what
Stephanie babbles.

> IQ is no defense against falling for an ideological romance.

Probably not, but intelligence is.

> It's not about brains, its about lacking skepticism. Even stupid
> people can have common sense.

> > Whether his characterization is
> > correct or not, I'm not sure, but I sympathize with it. It is
> > exactly the same as that of those Oxfordians who believe that Oxford
> > was not just a world-class poet but two or more world-class
> > poets AND a world-class philosopher AND a legal mind of the first
> > rank AND the world's leading architect of Modern Democracy and
> > the Inventor of the sonnet form, blank verse drama and Human
> > Nature, and a superior doctor, gardener, horseman, fencer,
> > soldier, sailor . . . and proficient in seven thousand languages.
> > Not to mention the cleverest hoaxster in the history of mankind.
> > And greatest lover.
>
> Except for that last part of which we cannot be sure, you've just
> described the great *polymath genius* Lord Bacon.

Oh, surely I didn't do him justice.

> I don't know how many languages Bacon could speak or read but he was
> fluent in the six languages of the plays.

Surely, you've left out at least thirty.

--Bob G.

>
> Elizabeth

KQKnave

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Jan 26, 2002, 4:10:20 PM1/26/02

to

In addition:

"De Shakespeare Nostrat

On the other hand, here is how the Earl of Oxenforde
sounded (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson):

Doesn't sound much like Shakespeare, does he? In fact he seems

to be the very business man that Oxfordians like to claim William
Shakespeare must have been, which I find to be...well, ironic. Are
there any letters in Shakespeare's hand showing him to be
as interested in money and tin mining as Oxenforde's letters show?
No. In fact, the only document in Shakespeare's hand is part of
a play, in his style, typical of his concerns and in every way
consistent with what we know about William Shakespeare's
writing.

See for yourself that the Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html

Agent Jim

Stephanie Caruana

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Jan 26, 2002, 4:28:34 PM1/26/02

to

...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
--From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain

"KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comspamslam> wrote in message
news:20020125143144...@mb-ca.aol.com...

....and the rest of Agent Jim's Catechism [Thought Substitute] for
Shaksperoids

KQKnave

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Jan 27, 2002, 12:24:19 PM1/27/02

to

In addition:

That Jonson was acquainted with Shakespeare

KQKnave

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Jan 29, 2002, 10:29:23 AM1/29/02

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David L. Webb

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Jan 29, 2002, 6:37:58 PM1/29/02

to Stephanie Caruana

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <a2sepp$n22$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephanie Caruana

<spear-...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> ...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
> bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers, these
> bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
> Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain

[...]

I don't know why you care much what Mark Twain thought, Stephanie.
On second thought, perhaps I *do* know -- you're partaking in the
communal Oxfordian desperation to enlist coreligionists. Mark Twain,
of course, had no expertise whatever in Renaissance literary history or
in related disciplines, and Oxfordians conspicuously avoid citing as
allies any authorities who do possess such pertinent expertise. One
might as well ask what Kurt Vonnegut thinks of string theory. It is
particularly odd that you quoted KQKnave's post, which was brimming
with hard, primary evidence; your response -- a brief quotation that
does not even pretend to summarize any primary evidence, as KQKnave's
post did -- seems rather feeble in the context of KQKnave's
information-rich post.

David Webb

KQKnave

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Jan 30, 2002, 8:40:30 AM1/30/02

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Stephanie Caruana

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Jan 30, 2002, 11:16:05 AM1/30/02

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"David L. Webb" <David....@Dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
news:290120021837585285%David....@Dartmouth.edu...

> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <a2sepp$n22$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephanie Caruana
> <spear-...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > ...These Stratfordolaters,, these Shakesperoids, these thugs, these
> > bandoleers, these troglodytes, these blatherskites, these buccaneers,
these
> > bandoleers....they are trying to compel everybody to revere their
> > Shakespeare and hold him sacred.....
> > --From "Is Shakespeare Dead?" by Mark Twain
>
> [...]
>

> I don't know why you care much what Mark Twain thought, Stephanie.

Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors. I don't much care what
you think about him.

> On second thought, perhaps I *do* know -- you're partaking in the
> communal Oxfordian desperation to enlist coreligionists. Mark Twain,
> of course, had no expertise whatever in Renaissance literary history or
> in related disciplines, and Oxfordians conspicuously avoid citing as
> allies any authorities who do possess such pertinent expertise.

Nevertheless, he was extreme intelligent, and SELF-EDUCATED pretty much and
in the real sense of the word, as all of us are when you get right down to
it. In background, he had quite a lot in common with Shaksper. I'm sure
you don't really believe that when one is learning what other people have to
say for themselves, one needs a teacher to explain everything. One
understands what one reads according to one's capacities. No more and no
less.

One
> might as well ask what Kurt Vonnegut thinks of string theory.

One did not ask what Kurt Vonnegut thinks of string theory.

It is
> particularly odd that you quoted KQKnave's post, which was brimming
> with hard, primary evidence;

The usual nonsense, repeated over and over and over again in spite of all
the rational objections that have been proposed over the CENTURIES.

your response -- a brief quotation that
> does not even pretend to summarize any primary evidence, as KQKnave's
> post did -- seems rather feeble in the context of KQKnave's
> information-rich post.

See above.

I guess I am just tired of the self-absorbed solipsistic curmudgeonhood of
the hlas goon squad of which you are such a stalwart member. HLAS and
Shaksper are about the only places I know of where all opposition to the
exploded and inherently absurd idea that Shaksper could have been
Shakespeare and have left virtually no trace of himself as that individual
is treated with the most vitriolic and unsparing and vicious ridicule
imaginable.

They don't act that way any more at the Folger, although they used to,

Most magazines and many schools give at least a courteous ear to the
opposition.

Which hole in the ground are you guys sticking your heads in?

>
> David Webb

Stephanie

KQKnave

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Jan 31, 2002, 1:46:18 PM1/31/02

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KQKnave

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Feb 1, 2002, 6:04:18 PM2/1/02

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Stephanie Caruana

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Feb 1, 2002, 6:27:35 PM2/1/02

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Why don't you cram it all onto a sandwich board, Agent Jim?

(more below)

----- Original Message -----
From: "KQKnave" <kqk...@aol.comspamslam>
Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:04 PM
Subject: A Reminder: Why Shakespeare was the man history says he was

> Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:
>
> His name on over forty title pages; his monument in Stratford;
> Robert Greene's attack on Shakespeare in Greene's Groatsworth
> of Wit (1592), where he paraphrases a play by Shakespeare; the
> Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned by name
> and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
> where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]
> all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too"; Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said
> "The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
> Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of
> Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort," and who
> called Shakespeare "one of our florishing metricians;" and
> Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue is mightily
> enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments and
> resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer, Daniel,
> Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
> [notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
> and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
> and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's

>...........>

(Cut endless repeat of this post, which Agent Jim appears to post with
increasing frequency, like a rat pressing a pedal for a ratfood pellet,
whenever the Strats are taking an extra good thumping....)

Stephanie Caruana

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Feb 1, 2002, 6:31:37 PM2/1/02

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" Stephanie Caruana" <spear-...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:...

KQKnave

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Feb 2, 2002, 12:46:26 PM2/2/02

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Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:

His name on over forty title pages; his monument in Stratford;
Robert Greene's attack on Shakespeare in Greene's Groatsworth
of Wit (1592), where he paraphrases a play by Shakespeare; the
Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned by name
and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]
all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too"; Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said
"The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of
Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort," and who
called Shakespeare "one of our florishing metricians;" and
Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue is mightily
enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments and
resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer, Daniel,
Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
[notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's

In addition:

"De Shakespeare Nostrat

As for Shakespeare not having the proper background to be
the author, he was the son of a wealthy middle class homeowner,
like most great writers. For example, here are most of the records
related to John Shakespeare, William's father. Even at the end of
his life, his estate was valued at 500 pounds, an enormous sum
at a time when 40 pounds could purchase a house with land.

1556 - purchased an estate with garden and croft in
Greenhill street
1556 - purchased a house with garden in Henley street.
1556 - chosen as one of two "ale-tasters" (inspector of
bread and beer makers)
1558 - sworn in as constable
1559 - witnessing the minutes of the Leet as an afeeror,
and appointed one of the town's 14 burgesses.
~1560-62 Inherited his father's property and either gave
or sold it to his brother-in-law.
1565 - Elected alderman
1568 - Elected bailiff*
1571 - Elected chief alderman and deputy to the new bailiff
1572 - Along with the bailiff, rode to London together on
borough business, with permission from the aldermen
and burgesses to proceed 'according to their discretions'.
1572 - awarded 50 pounds by a court for money owed to him
1575 - Bought two houses with garden and orchard for 40 pounds
1578 - raised 40 pounds by mortgaging a house and 56 acres in
Wilmcote that he owned. (He was unable to pay the
mortgage on time and lost the land).
~1580 - Paid the bail of Michael Price (10 pounds)
~1580 - Forfeited a bond of 10 pounds on behalf of a debt
incurred by his brother Henry. Escaped jail because
a friend (Alderman Hill) paid his bail.
1582 - Petitioned for sureties of the peace against 4 men,
one of whom was the bailiff, for 'fear of death
and mutilation of his limbs'. This may or may not
have had something to do with his financial troubles.
Before 1590 - sold the house on Greenhill street.
1592 - Twice called on to assist in making inventories of
deceased neighbors.
1596 - The grant of his coat-of-arms notes that he has
"land and tenements of good wealth and substance"
worth 500 pounds.
1597 - sold small plot of land (one-half yard by 28 yards)
at the Henley street property for 50 shillings
(equal to about 100 days pay for an artisan).
At about the same time he also sold a 17 by 17
foot piece of land on Henley street.
1601 - Richard Quiney rode to London to plead the borough's
cause, listing on a document the names of John
Shakespeare and other town worthies to the effect
that he (Quiney) was able to speak on behalf of
the borough.

*According to Schoenbaum (CDL):
The office of bailiff was a very high office. He served as
justice of the peace, issued warrants, dealt with cases of
debt and violations of the by-laws, and carried on negotiations
with the lord of the manor. He decreed the every week the price
of corn, bread and ale. Appropriate ceremony accompanied his
exalted station. He and his deputy wore the furred gowns in public,
were escorted from their houses to the Gild Hall by the
serjeants bearing their maces before them. They were waited on
by these buff-uniformed officers once a week to receive
instructions, and accompanied by them through the market
on Thursdays, through the fair on fair-days, about the
parish-grounds at Rogation, and to and from church on Sundays.
At church they sat with their wives in the front pew on the
north side of the nave. At sermons in the Gild chapel they had
their seats of honour.

KQKnave

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Feb 3, 2002, 2:40:43 PM2/3/02

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Neuendorffer

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Feb 3, 2002, 4:11:33 PM2/3/02

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----------------------------------------------------------------
<<We like to feel, for instance, that the only English pope,

Nicholas BREAKSPEAR,

was drawn by the gods into the right onomastic area for
international greatness, but that for him to be called SHAKE-SPEARE
would have been going too far. ADRIAN IV, with his bull _Laudabiliter_
broke the spears of the Irish. His rimesake is caught in a pose of
entirely benevolent aggression.>> - Shakespeare (p.23, Burgess)
---------------------------------------------------------------
BREAKSPEAR: ADRIAN IV
--------------------------------------------------------------
Feastdays of St. ADRIAN: SEPT.8
patron saint of BUTCHERS & AUG.26
----------------------------------------------------------
____________
GLOVEmaker- / \
BUTCHER John --------- MARY MAR(ger)Y
[d. SEPT.8] | [d. SEPT.8] [d. AUG.26]
[could write | [could write
his 'marke'] | her 'marke']
___|___________
/ \ [illiter.]
MAR(ger)Y Shakspere ------------- Anne
[BROOK House] | [b. 1556]
[Shakspere GLOVES] |
[Shakespeare's Boys] |
[£1,000/year income] |
[Stratford upon Avon] |
[Meres' Top 10 in comedy (1598)] |
[1608 Lessor of Blackfriars Th.] |
|
Hall M.D. -- SUSANna
[b. May 26]
[could write name]
___________________________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------------------

John ----------- MAR(ger)Y
| "Polonius"
______|____ buried daughter
/ \ |
MARY Oxford ------------------ Anne
[BROOKE House] | [b. 1556]
[Oxford GLOVES] |
[Oxford's Boys] |
[£1,000/year income] |
[Stratford the Bowe] |
[Meres' Top 10 in comedy (1598)] |
[1583 Lessor of Blackfriars Th.] |
|
Philip Herbert ----- SUSAN
[Folio dedicatee] [b. May 26]
[Jaggard dedicatee]
---------------------------------------------------------------
OXFORD GLOVES
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.shakespeare.org.uk/project2000/gloves.htm

<<Returning from his travels in Italy the Earl of Oxford
brought back 'a pair of perfumed gloves, timed only
with four tufts of roses in coloured silk' which he
presented to Elizabeth I. Gloves with scent became known as
OXFORD GLOVES (even though not necessarily made in Oxford).

Shakespeare mentions perfumed gloves:

In A Winter's Tale Autolycus sings of gloves
as sweet as damask roses and

in Much Ado About Nothing Hero says to Beatrice

'these gloves the Count sent me, they are an excellent perfume'.

Some 17th-century glovers were also perfumiers, but
it is unlikely that John Shakspere would have scented his gloves,
as this fashion was introduced at the end of his period as glover,
and was no doubt confined to the more cosmopolitan centres.

Cervantes mentions the nauseating atmosphere in a glover's shop:
------------------------------------------------------------------
SABAean/Sabian, a. [L. SABAeus.] 1. Of or pertaining to SABA
in Arabia, celebrated for producing aromatic plants.

SABAean/Sabian, n. An adherent of the Sabian religion;
a worshiper of the heavenly bodies.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Quixote by Cervantes - Translated by John Ormsby
( PART 1 - CHAPTER XXX )

"Well!" said Don Quixote, "when thou camest close to her didst
thou not perceive a SABAean odour, an aromatic fragrance,
a, I know not what, delicious, that I cannot find a name for;
I mean a redolence, an exhalation, as if thou wert in the shop
of some dainty glover?"

"All I can say is," said Sancho, "that I did perceive a little
odour, something goaty; it must have been that she was all in
a sweat with hard work."

"It could not be that," said Don Quixote, "but thou must have been
suffering from cold in the head, or must have smelt thyself; for
I know well what would be the scent of that rose among thorns,
that lily of the field, that dissolved amber."

"Maybe so," replied Sancho; "there often comes from myself that
same odour which then seemed to me to come from her grace the lady
Dulcinea; but that's no wonder, for one devil is like another."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Melville's _Clarel_ Book III, "Mar SABA"
SHEIKH/PIR ben SABA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/

<<Even in modern times, scholars of popular fiction are familiar with
the notorious Order of THE ASSASSINS OF ALAMUT, a medieval islamic sect,
ruled by the legendary OLD MAN of the MOUNTAIN. The name "ASSASSINS"
derives from the word "Assass," meaning "GUARDIANs" or "Protectors", for
the Assassins were in reality the Islamic Soldier-Monks in charge of the
protection of the Holy Land. "Assasseen in Arabic signifies 'GUARDIANs',
and some commentators consider this to be the true origin of the word:
'GUARDIANs of the secrets'." - Arkon Daraul, Secret Societies.

The Assassins were the keepers of much occult knowledge, inherited from
Israel, Babylon, Egypt, and other far more ancient sources. They knew
the secrets of the gnostic and of the kabbala. Their role in the history
of alchemy is well documented. The longer-than-normal lifespan of
their leader, Hasan ben SABA, the OLD MAN of the MOUNTAIN, is one clue

[OLD MAN is a literal translation for `PIR': a Persian `SHEIKH']

another is their motto, the alchemical saying: NOTHING IS TRUE...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

Neuendorffer

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Feb 5, 2002, 12:05:58 PM2/5/02

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KQKnave wrote:

> Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:

> 1)His name on over forty title pages

Not Shakspere's name.

Shakspere's name appears on less than seven 'titles.'

> 2) his monument in Stratford;

Shakspeare's moniment: "Read if thou canst"

> 3) Robert Greene's attack on Shakespeare in Greene's Groatsworth of Wit (1592)

Robert Greene's attack on "Shake-scene"
Initiates into Mithraism were called "CROWS"

> 4) where he paraphrases a play by Shakespeare;

Inserted in a different typefont:

"Tygers hart wrapt in a Players hyde"

Italian LORDS were called "TIGERNA"
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://home.earthlink.net/~mark_alex/greene/greeneorig.html

<<The Tygers hart line was not seen in published form until the
1595 quarto of _The TRUE Tragedie of Richard Duke of Yorke_,
there is NO AUTHOR's name on the title page.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------
In Petrarch's Rime sparse:

LAURA. . . has a "TIGER's or she-bear's HEART" (152.1)

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/cls/36.3migraine-george.html

Richard "Couer de Lion" (the Lion-hearted) indicates
that the idea of "animal hearted" has a long history.
----------------------------------------------------------------
First historical solar eclipse: April 6, 648 BC Friday
Birth of Jesus Christ?: April 6, 6 BC Tuesday
the Koran descended to Earth: April 6, 610 AD Monday
Richard "Couer de Lion" dies: April 6, 1199 Tuesday
Petrarch meets LAURA April 6, 1327 Monday
LAURA dies of plague April 6, 1348 Sunday
RAPHAEL born April 6, 1483 Sunday
RAPHAEL dies April 6, 1520 Good Friday
Albrecht Durer dies April 6, 1528 Monday
Kent EARTHQUAKE (Juliet weaned?): April 6, 1580 Wednesday
BRIDGET Vere's birth: April 6, 1584 Mon/Friday
Sir Francis Walsingham dies: April 6, 1590 Mon/Friday
Historian John Stow dies: April 6, 1605 Sat/Wed.
---------------------------------------------------------------

KQKnave wrote:

<< 5) the Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned

by name and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]
all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too";>>

------------------------------------------------------------------
_The Second Part of the Return from Parnassus_ (1601)

Kempe: Few of the university [men] pen plays well, they smell too much
of that writer Ovid,and that writer Metamorphosis, and talk too much of
Proserpina and Jupiter. Why, here's our fellow Shakespeare puts them all
down, aye and Ben Jonson too. O that Ben Jonson is a pestilent fellow,
he brought up Horace giving the poets a pill, but our fellow Shakespeare
hath given him a PURGE that made him bewray his credit.
------------------------------------------------------------------
_Every Man in His Humour_ by Ben Jonson

H: She must have store of Ellebore,
given her to PURGE these grosse obstructions:
------------------------------------------------------------------
<<They persuaded [the doctor's apprentice] they could make him
a Freemason, and accordingly had taught him several ridiculous
signs, words, and ceremonies, of which he was very fond.
'Tis true I laughed (and perhaps heartily, as my manner is) at the
beginning of their relation; but when they came to those circumstances
of their giving him a violent PURGE, leading him to kiss J.'s
posteriors. . .">> -- _Benjamin Franklin_ by Carl Van Doren p.133
------------------------------------------------------------
_The Return From Parnassus_: "let this duncified worlde esteeme
of Spencer and Chaucer, I'le worshipp sweet Mr. Shakespeare, &
to honor him will lay his Venus and Adonis under my PILLOW...."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
<<Alexander was naturally a great lover of all kinds of learning &
reading; and Onesicritus informs us that he constantly laid Homer's
Iliads, according to the copy corrected by Aristotle, called
the CASKET copy, with his dagger under his PILLOW....>>
---------------------------------------------------------------
"I will now give you convincing proofs that you may know me
and be assured. See, here is the scar from the boar's tooth
that ripped me when I was out hunting on Mount Parnassus
with the sons of Autolycus."

As he spoke he drew his rags aside from the great scar, and when
they had examined it thoroughly, they both of them WEPT about Ulysses,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote:

<< 6) Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said

"The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of
Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort,">>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
<<ALL TRAGIC HEROS are simply surrogates of Dionysus/Osiris.
We find a frequent sparagmos of beings who have committed some sin:

Pentheus by Maenads
Orpheus by Maenads
Lycurgus by horses
Hyppolytus by horses
Dirce by a bull
Actaeon by hounds. . .

This use of a surrogate was made easier by the fact that both at Eleusis
and in the Osiris rite the myth was conveyed by tableaux (i.e., 'things
shown') rather than by words. Thus the death of Pentheus, wearing
Dionysiac dress, would be shown by exactly the same tableau as that of
Dionysus.
THE TRUTH COULD BE SHOWN TO THE WISE
AND AT THE SAME TIME VEILED FROM THE UNKNOWING.

Such facts help to explain the charge of
"profaning the mysteries" brought against Aeschylus.>>
- Drama in 1939 _Encyclopedia Britannica_
-------------------------------------------------------------------

KQKnave wrote:

<< 7) and who called Shakespeare "one of our florishing metricians;">>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
In the court of Elizabeth I (July, 1578)
Gabriel Harvey addressed Edward deVere:

<<O great-hearted one, strong in thy mind and thy fiery will, thou wilt
conquer thyself, thou wilt conquer others; thy glory will spread out in
all directions beyond the Arctic Ocean; and England will put thee to
the test and prove thee to be a native-born Achilles

...Thine eyes flash fire,
thy WILL SHAKES SPEARES;>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote:

<< 8) & Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue

is mightily enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments
and resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer,
Daniel, Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
[notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's
"best Lyrick Poets" and "our best for tragedie" and among the
"best Poets for Comedy" and "the most passionate among us
to bewaile and bemoane the perplexities of Love;">>

---------------------------------------------------------------
BREAKSPEAR: ADRIAN IV
--------------------------------------------------------------
Feastdays of St. ADRIAN: SEPT.8
patron saint of BUTCHERS & AUG.26
----------------------------------------------------------
____________
GLOVEmaker- / \
BUTCHER John --------- MARY MAR(ger)Y
[d. SEPT.8] | [d. SEPT.8] [d. AUG.26]
[could write | [could write
his 'marke'] | her 'marke']
___|___________
/ \ [illiter.]
MAR(ger)Y Shakspere ------------- Anne
[BROOK House] | [b. 1556]

[Shaxpere's Boys] |
[Shakspere GLOVES] |

-------------------------------------------------------------
Little Women, by Louisa May Alcott, Chapter 12

`I hate to have odd GLOVES! Never mind, the other may be found.
My letter is only a translation of the German song I wanted;
I think Mr. BROOKE did it, for this isn't Laurie's writing.'
-------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote:

<< 9) Francis Beaumont (1608), "...here I would let slippe/

(If I had any in mee) schollershippe,/ And from all Learning
keepe these lines as cleere/ as Shakespeare's best are, which
our heires shall heare/ Preachers apte to their auditors to
showe/ how farre sometimes a mortall man may goe/ by the
dimme light of Nature...," >>

--------------------------------------------------------
March 6, 1616 Francis Beaumont Tomb in Westminster Abbey:

<<MORTALITY, behold and FEAR!
What a change of flesh is HERE!
Think how many royal BONES
Sleep within this heap of STONES:>>
----------------------------------------------------------
ORB, n. [F.orbe] A GLOBE.
----------------------------------------------------------
April 23, 1616 William Shakspere grave in Stratford:

<<Good friend for Iesus sake F(orb)EAR(e)
To digg the dust encloased HE(a)RE:
Blest be ye man yt spares thes STONES
And CURST be he yt moves my BONES.>>
-------------------------------------------------------

KQKnave wrote:

<< Jonson was acquainted with Shakespeare
personally is indisputable: Shakespeare's name
appears on the list of players who acted in
"Every Man in His Humour",>>

--------------------------------------------------------------
Every Man in His Humour by Ben Jonson

H: Aye Lorenzo, but election is now gouernd altogether
by the influence of humor, which . . . hurles foorth nothing
but smooke and congested vapours, that stifle her up, and
bereaue her of all sight and motion. But she must have store of
Ellebore, given her to PURGE these grosse obstructions: o that is
well sayd, give me thy TORCH, come lay this stuffe together. So,
give fire? there, see, see, how our Poets glory shines brighter,
and brighter, still, still it increaseth, o now it is at the
highest, and now it declines as fast: you may see gallants,

SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"the influence of humor, which . . . hurles foorth
nothing but SMOOKE and congested vapours" -- Jonson
-----------------------------------------------------------
"An amorous gentleman of Milan bare in his standard a TORCH
figured burning and turning downward, whereby the melting
wax, falling in great abundance, quencheth the flame; with
this posy thereunto: Quod me alit me extinguit."

This particular description appears in Samuel Daniel's
emblem-book, 'The Worthy Tract of Paulus Jovius', which was
published in 1585, the year the portrait was painted.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote:

<<Jonson's comments on his contemporaries were
typically a mix of praise and censure. Here
are some examples from "Conversations with
William Drummond":

"Samuel Daniel was a good honest man, had no
children: but no poet.">>

---------------------------------------------------------------
<<SAMuel DANIEL, John Marston, and James Shirley all fail
to mention books or MSS in their wills.>> - Park Honan

<<The identity of the eight poets who carried Spenser's coffin to his
burial in Westminster Abbey, is revealed by the historian, who was
an eye-witness of the ceremony. Camden, moreover, declares that they
are the most distinguished authors of his time, and those
whom future Sages will be compelled to admire:

"Samuel Daniel, Hugh Holland, Ben Jonson, Tho. Campion, Mich Drayton,
George Chapman, John Marston and William Shakespeare.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cambridge History of English and American Literature

<<Samuel Daniel, the son of a music master, was born, probably near
Taunton in Somerset, in 1562, and went to MAGDALEN hall (now Hertford
college), Oxford. In 1586, he visited Italy, and, on his
return, became tutor, at Wilton, to Shakespeare’s friend and patron
William Herbert, to whom he dedicated his Defence of Ryme; and here he
made the acquaintance of Herbert’s mother, Mary countess of Pembroke.
Another of his friends was lord Mountjoy, afterwards earl of Devonshire,
whom Daniel visited at Wanstead. So far back as 1595, in the second book
of his epic, The Civil Wars, he had eulogised Robert Devereux, second
earl of Essex. He spent his later years on his farm at Beckington,
in Somerset, where he died in 1619.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(S)IDRACH (A)BDENAGO (M)ISACH
DANIEL
---------------------------------------------------------
DANIEL 3

3:14. Pronunciansque Nabuchodonosor rex, ait eis:
VERENE, SIDRACH, MISACH, ET ABDENAGO deos meos non colitis,
et statuam auream, quam constitui, non adoratis?

3:14. Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them,
Is it TRUE, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve
my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

3:24. . . .did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?
They answered and said unto the king, TRUE, O king.
3:25. He answered and said, LO, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of THE FOURTH is like the SON of GOD.
------------------------------------------------------------
THESE SONNETS ALL BY EVER THE FORTH
------------------------------------------------------------
{DANIEL}
------------------------------------------------------------
TOTHEON {L} I
EBEGETT {E} R
OFTHESE {I} N
SVINGSO {N} N
ETSMRWH {A} L
LHAPPINE S
SEANDTHA T
ETERNITI E
PROMISE {D} B

YOVREVER L
IVINGPOE T
WISHETHT H
EWELLWIS H
INGADVEN T
VRERINSE T
TINGFORT H
------------------------------------------------------------
Probability of D[. . .]ANIEL in any Sonnets array ~ 1/1500
------------------------------------------------------------
DANIEL 1

1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah,
Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And
the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with
some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to
the temple of his god in Babylonia and put in the treasure house
of his god. Then the king ordered Ashpenaz (i.e., Burghley),
chief of his court officials,
to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family

and THE NOBILITY-- YOUNG MEN without any physical defect,
HANDSOME, SHOWING APTITUDE FOR EVERY KIND OF LEARNING,
WELL INFORMED, QUICK TO UNDERSTAND
, AND QUALIFIED TO SERVE IN THE KING'S PALACE.

He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians.
The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine
from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years,
and after that they were to enter the king's service.
Among these were some from Judah: DANIEL, HANANIAH, Mishael and Azariah.
The chief official gave them new names:

to DANIEL, the name Belteshazzar;

to {H}ANANIAH, Shadrach
to {A}zariah, Abednego
to {M}ishael, Meshach
-----------------------------------------------------------
DEIANIRA
------------------------------------------------------------
TOTHEONL I
EBEGETTE R
OFTHESE {I} N
SVINGSO {N} N
ETSMRWH {A} L
LHAPPIN {E} S
SEANDTH {A} T
ETERNIT {I} E
PROMISE {D} B
YOVREVE {R} L
IVINGPOE T
WISHETHT H
EWELLWIS H
INGADVEN T
VRERINSE T
TINGFORT H
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<<ACHELOUS (uhk uh LOH uhs): Eldest of 3000 sons of Oceanus & Tethys and
a river god worshiped by the ancient oracle of Dodona. Achelous had the
power to assume three forms:

1) a man with a bull's head,
2) a speckled serpent (like the one on Elizabeth sleeve in her 'rainbow
portrait')
and finally 3) a bull.

Achelous was the only 'man' brave enough to wrestle Heracles
for the hand of DEIANIRA of Calydon - even daring to call Heracles
mother an adulteress (; Alcmene was, in fact, extremely chaste
and Zeus deceived her only with a 'reverse bed trick'; i.e., by taking
the form of her husband). While wrestling Heracles, Achelous transformed
from a bull-headed man to a serpent/river to a bull but Heracles
defeated each transformation and finally broke a horn hurling Achelous
(the bull) senseless to the ground. Achelous' broken horn miraculously
transformed into the CORNUCOPIA. Heracles thereby won Deianira while
Achelous bitterly slunk off to his cave of underground springs
to tell stories and swell angrily during springtime floods.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mars, Saturn & Venus between the "horns" of Taurus
in the dawn sky on June 18, 1178.
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/7393/1new.htm

"This year, on the evening of June 18, when the moon, a slim crescent,
first became visible, a marvelous phenomenon was seen by several men who
were watching it. Suddenly the upper horn of the crescent was split in
two. From the midpoint of the division a flaming torch sprang up,
spewing out over a considerable distance fire, hot coals and sparks.
The body of the moon which was below writhed like a wounded snake.
This happened a dozen times or more, and when the moon returned to
normal, the whole crescent took on a blackish appearance."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

KQKnave

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Feb 9, 2002, 1:33:50 PM2/9/02

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Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:

His name on over forty title pages; his monument in Stratford;

Robert Greene's attack on Shakespeare in Greene's Groatsworth

of Wit (1592), where he paraphrases a play by Shakespeare; the

Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned by name
and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]

all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too"; Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said

"The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of

Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort," and who
called Shakespeare "one of our florishing metricians;" and

Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue is mightily
enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments and
resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer, Daniel,
Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
[notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's
"best Lyrick Poets" and "our best for tragedie" and among the
"best Poets for Comedy" and "the most passionate among us

to bewaile and bemoane the perplexities of Love;" and

Francis Beaumont (1608), who said "...here I would let slippe/

(If I had any in mee) schollershippe,/ And from all Learning keepe
these lines as cleere/ as Shakespeare's best are, which our
heires shall heare/ Preachers apte to their auditors to showe/
how farre sometimes a mortall man may goe/ by the dimme
light of Nature...,"

In addition:

That Jonson was acquainted with Shakespeare

personally is indisputable: Shakespeare's name
appears on the list of players who acted in

"Every Man in His Humour", and Jonson's
extended comments upon Shakespeare in his
"Timber" (see below) are proof of that: he
says that Shakespeare was "(indeed) honest,
and of an open, and free nature:" and that
he "loved the man".

Jonson's comments on his contemporaries were
typically a mix of praise and censure. Here
are some examples from "Conversations with
William Drummond":

"Samuel Daniel was a good honest man, had no
children: but no poet."

"That Michael Drayton's Poly-Olbion (if he had

Neuendorffer

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Feb 9, 2002, 5:03:44 PM2/9/02

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KQKnave wrote:

> Here is why Shakespeare is the author of the works attributed to him:

> 1)His name on over forty title pages

Not Shakspere's name.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/cls/36.3migraine-george.html

KQKnave wrote:

<< 5) the Parnassus plays (1598-1601), where Shakespeare is mentioned

by name and Venus and Adonis and Romeo & Juliet are parodied, and
where Shakespeare is said to have "put them [university playwrights]
all down, aye, and Ben Jonson too";>>

<< 6) Gabriel Harvey (nlt 1603), who said

"The younger sort takes much delight in Shakespeares Venus, &
Adonis: but his Lucrece, & his tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of
Denmarke, have it in them, to please the wiser sort,">>

KQKnave wrote:

<< 8) & Francis Meres (1598), who said "...so the English tongue

is mightily enriched, and gorgeously invested in rare ornaments
and resplendent abiliments by sir Philip Sidney, Spencer,
Daniel, Drayton, Warner, Shakespeare, Marlow and Chapman...."
[notice that he distinguishes between Marlowe and Shakespeare
and mentions Oxenforde separately in another section as well]
and who also said that Shakespeare was one of England's
"best Lyrick Poets" and "our best for tragedie" and among the
"best Poets for Comedy" and "the most passionate among us
to bewaile and bemoane the perplexities of Love;">>

-------------------------------------------------------------------
KQKnave wrote:

<< 9) Francis Beaumont (1608), "...here I would let slippe/

(If I had any in mee) schollershippe,/ And from all Learning
keepe these lines as cleere/ as Shakespeare's best are, which
our heires shall heare/ Preachers apte to their auditors to
showe/ how farre sometimes a mortall man may goe/ by the
dimme light of Nature...," >>

--------------------------------------------------------
March 6, 1616 Francis Beaumont Tomb in Westminster Abbey:

<<MORTALITY, behold and FEAR!
What a change of flesh is HERE!
Think how many royal BONES
Sleep within this heap of STONES:>>
----------------------------------------------------------
ORB, n. [F.orbe] A GLOBE.
----------------------------------------------------------
April 23, 1616 William Shakspere grave in Stratford:

<<Good friend for Iesus sake F(orb)EAR(e)
To digg the dust encloased HE(a)RE:
Blest be ye man yt spares thes STONES
And CURST be he yt moves my BONES.>>
-------------------------------------------------------

KQKnave wrote:

<< Jonson was acquainted with Shakespeare
personally is indisputable: Shakespeare's name
appears on the list of players who acted in
"Every Man in His Humour",>>

<<Jonson's comments on his contemporaries were
typically a mix of praise and censure. Here
are some examples from "Conversations with
William Drummond":

"Samuel Daniel was a good honest man, had no
children: but no poet.">>

Laila Roth

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Feb 10, 2002, 1:12:58 PM2/10/02

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Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<3C659CC0...@erols.com>...
> KQKnave wrote:
>
>snip of the entire duel<

Trying to investigate the past I find you two guys the most persistent
fighters locked up in some kind of a clansman combat för ever. At the
same time I find you two perhaps the most knowledgeable of all HLAS
protagonists, who really should know something about the truth. You
both seem sure about it, and yet you represent direct contraries and
seem prepared to fight each other for them to the bitter end. This
makes me reflect.

I think the basic authorship problem is that every 'fighter' is
emotionally involved with his candidate. There is no detachment. If we
tried honestly to view the problem from a purely objective point of
view, the arguments would calm down, get down to basics, and no
deadlock fights would be necessary. Am I right or wrong? But I guess
you cocks will continue fighting anyway. There is nothing more rare in
HLAS than perfect objective detachment.

Laila Roth, Derbyite

Neuendorffer

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Feb 10, 2002, 2:45:00 PM2/10/02

to

> > KQKnave wrote:

> >snip of the entire duel<

> Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com> wrote:

>snip of the entire duel<

`If you think we're wax-works you ought to pay, you know.
Wax-works weren't made to be looked at for nothing, nohow!'

`Contrariwise,' added the one marked `DEE,'
`if you think we're alive, you ought to speak.'

Then they let go of Laila's hands, and stood looking at her for a
minute: there was a rather awkward pause, as Laila didn't know how to
begin a conversation with people she had just been dancing with.

Laila Roth wrote:

> Trying to investigate the past I find you two guys the most persistent
> fighters locked up in some kind of a clansman combat för ever.

I'm "för ever"; Jim is for the illiterate Stratford boob.

> At the
> same time I find you two perhaps the most knowledgeable of all HLAS
> protagonists, who really should know something about the truth.

Yet, there are some things we wouldn't understand,
some things we couldn't understand,
some things we shouldn't understand!

> You
> both seem sure about it, and yet you represent direct contraries and
> seem prepared to fight each other for them to the bitter end.

`Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be;
and if it were so, it would be;
but as it isn't, it ain't.
That's logic.'

> This makes me reflect.

Neuendorffer examined his adversary, and found that she already
had her helmet on and visor lowered, so that he could not see
her face; he observed, however, that she was a sturdily built
woman, but not very tall in stature. Over her armour she wore a
surcoat or cassock of what seemed to be the finest cloth of gold,
all bespangled with glittering mirrors like little moons,
which gave her an extremely gallant and splendid appearance.

> I think the basic authorship problem is that every 'fighter' is
> emotionally involved with his candidate. There is no detachment.

Edward de Vere & I are just good friends.

> If we tried honestly
> to view the problem from a purely objective point of view,
> the arguments would calm down, get down to basics, and no
> deadlock fights would be necessary. Am I right or wrong?

"What fight? Jim simply ignores all my posts!" cried Neuendorffer,
beginning to stamp about wildly and tear his hair.

> But I guess you cocks will continue fighting anyway.
> There is nothing more rare in HLAS
> than perfect objective detachment.

> Laila Roth, Derbyite

Laila said afterwards she had never seen such a fuss made about anything
in all her life--the way those two bustled about. `But it certainly WAS
funny, to find myself singing "HERE WE GO ROUND THE MULBERRY BUSH."

Art Neuendorffer

KQKnave

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Feb 10, 2002, 5:07:10 PM2/10/02