Challinor's Thesis on Marlowe-Shakespeare Connection
PWDBard
suggested in his book "Alternative Shakespeare published in the UK in 1996 that
perhaps some of Marlowe's unpublished material was folded into the canon after
his death in 1593...by Oxford or Lady Pembroke. Much would depend on which
works one is talking about. Some literary experts profess that there is
definite stylistic evidence pointing to a Marlowe-Shakespeare connection.
Literary evidence is very soft and controversial with little agreement on what
could ever be conclusive in this area. In any case, Challinor tried to deal
with this alleged literary evidence in this fashion.
Buckeye Pete
Hermione Winterstale
> PWDBARD, aka Buckeye Pete, aka Peter Dickson, wrote:
> An Oxfordian who believes that Lady Pembroke was a collaborator of Oford
> suggested in his book "Alternative Shakespeare published in the UK in
> 1996 that perhaps some of Marlowe's unpublished material was folded into
> the canon after his death in 1593...by Oxford or Lady Pembroke.
<snip>
And how would Edward de Vere have got into his hands the plays and
sonnets of Christopher Marlowe? Can you connect Oxford and Marlowe in
any way at all? The Countess of Pembroke, quite on the other hand,
might well have been in possession of Marlowe's work. She might even
have provided him with a safe haven at Wilton House, should Marlowe's
'end' at Deptford in 1593 have been a ruse to save his life, enabling
him to live on and continue to write. Perhaps what was "folded into
the canon" was the work of other university wits into the work of
Christopher Marlowe.
Hermione Summerfresh
Who is Christopher Marlowe? Why would he have anything to do
with it, including even the plays under his name? None of his
plays were attributed to him until long after he died. There
is barely any evidence for his existence (see Agent Jim's list
of the names at the colleges - no Christopher Marlowe). Why
would any sane person substitute someone like that for the real
author? It's insane.
Ernie Holmes
Neuendorffer
> Who is Christopher Marlowe? Why would he have anything to do
> with it, including even the plays under his name? None of his
> plays were attributed to him until long after he died. There
> is barely any evidence for his existence (see Agent Jim's list
> of the names at the colleges - no Christopher Marlowe). Why
> would any sane person substitute someone like that for the real
> author? It's insane.
>
> Ernie Holmes
------------------------------------------------
Who is Ernie Holmes?
Why would he post under the name of Hermione Summerfresh?
Art Neuendorffer
Christian Lanciai
Because he is too old to be able to publish as Hermione Springborn,
and it's too early to be Autumntired.
Chris
Hermione Winterstale
> > > Who is Christopher Marlowe? Why would he have anything to do
> > > with it, including even the plays under his name? None of his
> > > plays were attributed to him until long after he died. There
> > > is barely any evidence for his existence (see Agent Jim's list
> > > of the names at the colleges - no Christopher Marlowe). Why
> > > would any sane person substitute someone like that for the real
> > > author? It's insane.
> > > Ernie Holmes
> > Art Neuendorffer wonders:
> > Who is Ernie Holmes?
> > Why would he post under the name of Hermione Summerfresh?
Until now, I had assumed that 'Hermione Summerfresh' was John Baker.
Baker teetered on the verge of espousing Oxfordianism not too long
ago while under the influence of a charismatic new friend. Perhaps
'Hermione Summerfresh' is that new friend. It hardly seems likely,
unless 'Ernie Holmes' has taken over Baker's brain, that Baker would
have written such a message. By posting from his actual e-mail address
(mar...@localaccess.com) John can let us know whether he is now or
has ever been Hermione Summerfresh ("Hermione's Evil Twin").
--Hermione Winterstale
Elizabeth Weir
Again. Mary Sidney Herbert and Oxford were on opposing sides
of the political rivalry between English Catholics and the
Puritan faction at Court. They never collaborated. They hated
each other. Oxford had nothing to do with the plays other
than the fact that his "cosen Bacon" wrote Oxford into them.
lyra
> pwd...@aol.com (PWDBard) wrote:
> > An Oxfordian who believes that Lady Pembroke was a collaborator of Oford [sic]
>
> Again. Mary Sidney Herbert and Oxford were on opposing sides
> of the political rivalry between English Catholics and the
> Puritan faction at Court. They never collaborated. They hated
> each other.
Then Oxford sounds the right sort of guy to me!...a man
with that amount of sense *ought* to be the writer of
Shakespeare!
To hell with the Wilton House brigade and its awful "Lady"!
lyra
Hermione Winterstale
> > An Oxfordian who believes that Lady Pembroke was a collaborator of
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> Again. Mary Sidney Herbert and Oxford were on opposing sides
> of the political rivalry between English Catholics and the
> Puritan faction at Court. They never collaborated. They hated
> each other. Oxford had nothing to do with the plays other
> than the fact that his "cosen Bacon" wrote Oxford into them.
Whether or not Bacon was one of the authors of the canon and whether
or not there is any indication of Oxford's personal life in <Hamlet>
or any other play in the canon (any more similarities than might be
found, for example, in the life of William Stanley, 6th Earl of
Derby), Peter Dickson has still failed to connect Edward de Vere to
the canon, and has offered no reason why the Oxfordian he sites has
reason to believe that de Vere collaborated with Christopher Marlowe.
As I asked Mr. Dickson (with no reply forthcoming to date): "...Can
you connect Oxford and Marlowe in any way at all? The Countess of
Pembroke, quite on the other hand, might well have been in possession
of Marlowe's work. She might even have provided him with a safe haven
at Wilton House, should Marlowe's 'end' at Deptford in 1593 have been
a ruse to save his life, enabling him to live on and continue to
write. Perhaps what was "folded into the canon" was the work of other
Elizabeth Weir
See herminoneseviltwin above.
Elizabeth Weir
> > > Buckeye Pete (Peter Dickson) wrote:
> > > An Oxfordian who believes that Lady Pembroke was a collaborator of
> > > Oxford...
>
> > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > Again. Mary Sidney Herbert and Oxford were on opposing sides
> > of the political rivalry between English Catholics and the
> > Puritan faction at Court. They never collaborated. They hated
> > each other. Oxford had nothing to do with the plays other
> > than the fact that his "cosen Bacon" wrote Oxford into them.
>
> Whether or not Bacon was one of the authors of the canon and whether
> or not there is any indication of Oxford's personal life in <Hamlet>
> or any other play in the canon (any more similarities than might be
> found, for example, in the life of William Stanley, 6th Earl of
> Derby), Peter Dickson has still failed to connect Edward de Vere to
> the canon, and has offered no reason why the Oxfordian he sites has
> reason to believe that de Vere collaborated with Christopher Marlowe.
I was addressing the Oxfordian delusion that
Mary Sidney Herbert would collaborate with her family's
worst nightmare Edward De Vere.
I'm not interested in Derby since Bacon has hard evidence
of authorship.
> As I asked Mr. Dickson (with no reply forthcoming to date): "...Can
> you connect Oxford and Marlowe in any way at all? The Countess of
> Pembroke, quite on the other hand, might well have been in possession
> of Marlowe's work. She might even have provided him with a safe haven
> at Wilton House, should Marlowe's 'end' at Deptford in 1593 have been
> a ruse to save his life, enabling him to live on and continue to
> write.
I have my doubts since Harvey's 1593 sonnet and poem contra Marlowe
indicate that there was animosity between Marlowe and the Sidney
faction at the time of Marlowe's murder. Harvey started out as
a dogishly loyal courtier to Leicester and from there moved
into the Pembroke circle [Leicester's niece and nephews] to be
with the unreciprocating object of his desire young Francis Bacon.
Harvey certainly hated Marlowe. It may have been personal.
Marlowe's only known connection with Francis Bacon is
through Bacon's gay brother Anthony. Marlowe and Athony Bacon
lived together for years in France.
> Perhaps what was "folded into the canon" was the work of other
> university wits into the work of Christopher Marlowe."
Marlowe was one of Bacon's masks but only beginning in 1598 when
Essex was in danger of being executed for an alleged association with
the dangerously republican plays. Marlowe's name abruptly appears
on a title page of a hitherto anonymous play at the same time
the actor cum tradesman Shakspere's name appears on the "seditious"
Richard III and Spenser's name is put for the first time on the
English national poems. The works of these "three" authors was
obviously distasteful to Philip II who was paying the Cecil's
"pensions" to advance his post-Armada plans for England.
Marlowe's name didn't appear on Tamerlaine until 1662. Marston
and Hall identify Bacon as the author of Tamerlaine.
Christian Lanciai
Here's something that turned up as I looked up your questions on the
web:
" I believe that 'Shakespeare' (i.e., Marlowe) DID have an agent. A
literary agent -- Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford.
Oxford was found a job by his father-in-law, in 1586, and
he was paid for doing that job until he died in 1604. After
intervention by Burghley, Marlowe was awarded his MA
in 1587 and moved down to London. Marlowe had been
absent from university and serving the Queen in Rheims.
As a spy in the Secret Service he had proved of use to
the powers that be -- and he was highly thought of as a
playwright. He was obviously a favourite of Burghley.
It seems, from Ward's biography of Oxford, that Oxford's
job was to do with supplying entertainment for the Court
and Spenser has 'Colin Clout' tell his audience "One day
I sat (as was my trade) under the foot of Mole".
I firmly believe that 'Colin Clout' was Marlowe and that
'Mole' was Oxford (the mole is clearly seen on the Montecute
House portrait of him.)
So it seems that 'Shakespeare' did have a literary agent --
and I believe that Ben Johnson could have been writing of
Oxford when he wrote 'On Poet-Ape' :-
Poor Poet-Ape that would be thought our chief
Whose works are e'en the frippery of wit,
From brokage is becoming so bold a thief,
As we, the robbed, leave rage and pity it.
At first he made low shifts, would pick and glean,
Buy the reversion of old plays, now grown
To a little wealth and credit on the scene.
He takes up all, makes each man's wit his own,
And, told of this, he slights it. Tut, such crimes
The sluggish, gaping, auditor devours.
He marks not whose 'twas first and afterwards
May judge it to be his as well as ours.
Fool! As if half eyes will not know a fleece
From locks of wool or shreds from the whole piece.
It has occurred to me that someone must have taken over
Oxford's role after his death and that it could have been
Sir Francis Bacon. If so, then Jonson's poem could have
referred to him. 'Play-broker' is not a term that seems to
fit the activities of the author of the 'Shakespeare' plays,
but it would fit in with Oxford's activities. This might also
explain why Oxford and Bacon have been suspected as
being 'the true author'.
'On Poet-Ape' was published in Jonson's 1616 folio."
This was posted by Peter Zenner two or three years ago.
There is also the account that Oxford staged Marlowe's first play
"Scanderbeg" (now lost) before Tamburlaine. I know it has been
disputed, but it hasn't been disproved, and generally there is no
smoke without fire.
Chris
Hermione Winterstale
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> Harvey certainly hated Marlowe. It may have been personal.
And didn't just about everyone hate Gabriel Harvey?
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> Marlowe's only known connection with Francis Bacon is
> through Bacon's gay brother Anthony. Marlowe and Athony Bacon
> lived together for years in France.
Interesting. Can you supply us with the time frame (years) during
which this co-habitation took place?
<snip>
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> ...Marston and Hall identify Bacon as the author of Tamerlaine.
Even more interesting still. So the "mighty line" for which Marlowe
received so much acclaim was really Bacon's and all those references
to Marlowe's authorship of <Tamerlaine> were but smoke screens?
lyra
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hermioneseviltwin anagrams into...
V! wit, in Ernie Holmes
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
lyra
Elizabeth Weir
> elizabe...@mail.com (Elizabeth Weir) wrote:
>
> > winte...@bigfoot.com (Hermione Winterstale) wrote:
> > > Whether or not Bacon was one of the authors of the canon and whether
> > > or not there is any indication of Oxford's personal life in <Hamlet>
> > > or any other play in the canon (any more similarities than might be
> > > found, for example, in the life of William Stanley, 6th Earl of
> > > Derby), Peter Dickson has still failed to connect Edward de Vere to
> > > the canon, and has offered no reason why the Oxfordian he sites has
> > > reason to believe that de Vere collaborated with Christopher Marlowe.
> >
> > I was addressing the Oxfordian delusion that
> > Mary Sidney Herbert would collaborate with her family's
> > worst nightmare Edward De Vere.
>
>
> Elizabeth seems to have Fyodor writing her posts these days. I kind of
> wish he would stop giving her jokes she doesn't understand now. He's
> showing signs he's starting to go too far again.
>
> >
> > I'm not interested in Derby since Bacon has hard evidence
> > of authorship.
> >
> > > As I asked Mr. Dickson (with no reply forthcoming to date): "...Can
> > > you connect Oxford and Marlowe in any way at all? The Countess of
> > > Pembroke, quite on the other hand, might well have been in possession
> > > of Marlowe's work. She might even have provided him with a safe haven
> > > at Wilton House, should Marlowe's 'end' at Deptford in 1593 have been
> > > a ruse to save his life, enabling him to live on and continue to
> > > write.
> >
> > I have my doubts since Harvey's 1593 sonnet and poem contra Marlowe
> > indicate that there was animosity between Marlowe and the Sidney
> > faction at the time of Marlowe's murder. Harvey started out as
> > a dogishly loyal courtier to Leicester and from there moved
> > into the Pembroke circle [Leicester's niece and nephews] to be
> > with the unreciprocating object of his desire young Francis Bacon.
>
This is a bad imitation of Webb, Janice.
> I'm more and more convinced that "Fyodor" almost never gets to see the
> final cuts of the "skits" he contributes to.
>
> >
> > Harvey certainly hated Marlowe. It may have been personal.
> >
> > Marlowe's only known connection with Francis Bacon is
> > through Bacon's gay brother Anthony. Marlowe and Athony Bacon
> > lived together for years in France.
> >
>
> [snip]
>
> ----
> Janice Miller
> Framingham, Massachusetts
Hermione Winterstale
> <snip>
> It seems, from Ward's biography of Oxford, that Oxford's
> job was to do with supplying entertainment for the Court
> and Spenser has 'Colin Clout' tell his audience "One day
> I sat (as was my trade) under the foot of Mole".
I would be interested in knowing the reasons why you think
Colin Clout was Marlowe.
And how do you interpret the words "as was my trade"?
> . . . and that 'Mole' was Oxford (the mole is clearly seen
> on the Montecute House portrait of him.)
> So it seems that 'Shakespeare' did have a literary agent . . .
Are you making this assumption solely because there is a mole
depicted on the Montecute House portrait of de Vere?
> . . . and I believe that Ben Johnson could have been writing of
> Oxford when he wrote 'On Poet-Ape' :-
> <snip>
> Fool! As if half eyes will not know a fleece
> From locks of wool or shreds from the whole piece.
But Christian, what about those references to livestock?
What connection did Edward de Vere have to this subject?
William Shakspere of Stratford-upon-Avon -- whose father
butchered livestock, dealt in wool, and was a glover as
well -- certainly knew "a fleece from locks of wool or
shreds from the whole piece".
> It has occurred to me that someone must have taken over
> Oxford's role after his death. . .
You have elevated your assumption to the category of fact.
> . . . and that it could have been
> Sir Francis Bacon. If so, then Jonson's poem could have
> referred to him. 'Play-broker' is not a term that seems to
> fit the activities of the author of the 'Shakespeare' plays,
> but it would fit in with Oxford's activities. This might also
> explain why Oxford and Bacon have been suspected as
> being 'the true author'.
Who are these people who suspect that Oxford and Bacon were
co-authors of the canon? Creditable, are they?
Christian Lanciai
Dear Hermione,
If you study my post more carefully, you'll see that almost all of it
was a quotation of an old HLAS post by Peter Zenner. All your
questions should be directed to him, and I hope he'll be able to
answer them.
My only contribution to the article was the assumption that it was
Oxford and his men who staged Marlowe's first play "Scanderbeg", which
now is lost.
Of course, this topic invites further studies and discussion and is
certainly worth deep investigation.
yours, at your service,
Chris
lyra
> Hermione Winterstale wrote:
> > > Christian Lancai wrote:
> > > <snip>
> . . . Marlowe's first play "Scanderbeg", which
> now is lost.
Scanderberg
anagrams to "Ban gr. screed!" (gr. for great)
seems like someone did, if it can't be found now...
if only it could, and in his handwriting!
lyra
lyra
I guess I wrote the name down with an error,
"Scanderbeg"
anagrams "Ban g. screed?"
and "Bard's gene, C.?"
lyra
lyra
> lyra wrote:
> > Christian Lanciai wrote:
> > > Hermione Winterstale wrote:
> > > > > Christian Lancai wrote:
> > > > > <snip>
>
> > > . . . Marlowe's first play "Scanderbeg", which
> > > now is lost.
> >
> > Scanderberg
> >
> > anagrams to "Ban gr. screed!" (gr. for great)
> >
> > seems like someone did, if it can't be found now...
> > if only it could, and in his handwriting!
>
> I guess I wrote the name down with an error,
>
> "Scanderbeg"
>
> anagrams "Ban g. screed?"
>
> and "Bard's gene, C.?"
>
lyra