Red Badge of Courage Question
jm
Shakespeare posts here.
I know this is an older book, but I had a question. Let's say that
Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published? Do
people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing to
except maybe Hemingway. I wanted something of the same caliber only
newer. Who is a modern day writer (last ten years) who is considered
a Superman/Superwoman author?
Thanks.
Please point me to the right newsgroup if I am not supposed to post here.
Thanks again.
Alan Jones
"jm" <john_20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:j1fPa.22383$GL4.6224@rwcrnsc53...
> I know this said it was a Shakespeare group, but I found other than
> Shakespeare posts here.
>
> I know this is an older book, but I had a question. Let's say that
> Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published? Do
> people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
> question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing to
> except maybe Hemingway. I wanted something of the same caliber only
> newer. Who is a modern day writer (last ten years) who is considered
> a Superman/Superwoman author?
The first thing to say is that he wouldn't write it in the same way today. A
writer's style and approach are partly determined by his background, and
something we often discuss in this group is the relationship of
Shakespeare's work to the religion, politics and culture of his time. Then
there's the development of language: the styles current today are not much
like those of Crane's time. And I don't think Crane was regarded as
"Superwriter" in his day - it takes time for an author's status to be seen
in perspective.
Sorry I can't help with suggestions: perhaps there's a latterday US soldier
in Iraq today gradually coming to see the conflict there, and his place in
it, in a personal way that in a century's time will move a reader as Crane's
book can still move us.
Alan Jones
Art Neuendorffer
> I agree that Mozart's example is not good evidence that Shakespeare might
> have written Venus and Adonis at the age of 26 or 27. Better evidence is
> Keats's St. Agnes Eve, done when Keats was 23 or 24, which I happen to
> like better than V&A, which is facile but adolescent. Stephen Crane was
> only 24 when he wrote The Red Badge of Courage
> (in spite of never having been a soldier);
"In England readers believed that
the book was written by a veteran soldier "
"jm" <john_20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:j1fPa.22383$GL4.6224@rwcrnsc53...
> I know this is an older book, but I had a question. Let's say that
> Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published?
Yes, but Freemason works tend to evolve over the years.
------------------------------------------------------------
Crane, Stephen (1709-1780) Born in Elizabeth, Union County, N.J., 1709.
Delegate to Continental Congress from New Jersey, 1774. Died July 1, 1780.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/LIT/crane.htm
<<Stephen Crane, born in New Jersey, had roots going back to Revolutionary
War soldiers, clergymen, sheriffs, judges, and farmers who had lived a
century earlier. Primarily a journalist who also wrote fiction, essays,
poetry, and plays, Crane saw life at its rawest, in slums and on
battlefields. His short stories -- in particular, "The Open Boat," "The Blue
Hotel," and "The Bride Comes to Yellow Sky" -- exemplified that literary
form. His haunting Civil War novel, The Red Badge of Courage, was published
to great acclaim in 1895, but he barely had time to bask in the attention
before he died, at 29, having neglected his health.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
BUR-BAGE means BOAR-BADGE! (Oxford / Bacon)
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/stephen_crane_us/
<<Though he was born six years after the Civil War ended, Crane was widely
praised by veterans for his uncanny power to imagine and reproduce the sense
of actual combat. The editors who had formerly turned him down now hounded
him for stories. Overnight the boy who often hadn't a roof over his head
knew comparative security, but he spent what he earned as fast as he got it.
After being a war correspondent-reporting the Greco-Turkish and the
Spanish-American wars-Crane rented an old English castle and for a short
time settled down with his wife to the role of
American-turned-English-squire, with dogs and horses and a constant houseful
of guests. His hospitality was so lavish as to bring ridicule upon him from
the many English and Americans who took advantage of it. He had had
tuberculosis for several years, and before going to England had married the
woman who had nursed him through two serious attacks-a woman older than he
and of no great refinement, who nonetheless made him the best of wives.
Again he grew ill, once more was in debt and unable to work. He died before
he was twenty-nine.
In the best of his work, Crane shows a rare ability to shape colorful
settings, dramatic action, and perceptive characterization into ironic
explorations of human nature and destiny. Joseph Conrad said of "The Open
Boat" that "by the deep and simple humanity of its presentation [the story]
seems somehow to illustrate the essentials of life itself, like a symbolic
tale." Crane's literary generation was a tragic one, also losing Frank
Norris and Harold Frederick prematurely from its ranks.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
In England readers believed that
the book was written by a veteran soldier
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/scrane.htm
<<American author, whose second book, THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE (1895),
brought him international fame. Crane's first novel, MAGGIE: A GIRL OF THE
STREETS, was a milestone in the development of literary naturalism. At its
appearance in 1893 Crane was just twenty-one. His manuscript was turned down
by the publishers, who considered its realism too 'ugly'. Crane had to print
the book at his own expense, borrowing the money from his brother. In its
inscription Crane warned that "it is inevitable that you be greatly shocked
by this book but continue, please, with all possible courage to the end."
The descent of a slum girl in turn-of-the-century New York into prostitution
was first published under a pseudonym. Maggie was generally ignored by
readers but it won the admiration of other realist writers.
"In the street infants played or fought with other infants or sat stupidly
in the way of vehicles. Formidable women, with uncombed hair and disordered
dress, gossiped while leaning on railings, or screamed in frantic quarrels.
Withered persons, in curious postures of submission to something, sat
smoking pipes in obscure corners. A thousand odors of cooking food came
forth to the street. The building quiVERED and creaked from the weight of
humanity stamping about in its bowels." (from Maggie)
Stephen Crane was born in Newark, New Jersey, as the 14th child of a
Methodist minister. His mother was active in the Woman's Christian
Temperance Union, and published fiction. Crane started to write stories at
the age of eight and at 16 he was writing articles for the New York Tribune.
Both of his parents did some writing and two of his brothers became
newspapermen. Crane studied at Lafayette College and Syracuse University.
After his mother's death in 1890 - his father had died earlier - Crane moved
to New York. He worked as a free-lance writer and journalist for the
Bachellor-Johnson newspaper syndicate. While supporting himself by his
writings, he lived among the poor in the Bowery slums to research his first
novel, Maggie. Crane's faithfulness to accuracy of details led him once to
dress up as a tramp and spend the night in a flophouse. This produced the
sketch 'Experiment in Misery' in 1894. Crane's work also inspired other
writers, such as Hutchins Hapgood (1869-1944), to examine the Lower East
Side.
Crane's unromanticized war novel The Red Badge of Courage depicted the
American Civil War from the point of view of an ordinary soldier. It has
been called the first modern war novel. In England readers believed that the
book was written by a veteran soldier - the text was so believable. Crane
dismissed this theory by saying that he got his ideas from the football
field.
The story is set during the American Civil War. Henry Fleming enrolls as a
soldier in the Union army. He has dreamed of battles and glory all his life,
but his expectations are shattered in his encounter with the enemy when he
witnesses the chaos on the battle field and starts to fear that the regiment
was leaving him behind. He flees from the battle. "Since he had turned his
back upon the fight his fears had been wondrously magnified. Death about to
thrust him between the shoulder blades was far more dreadful than death
about to smite him between the eyes. When he thought of it later, he
conceived the impression that it is better to view the appalling than to be
merely within hearing. The noises of the battle were like stones; he
believed himself liable to be crushed."
Henry wanders into a thick wood, and meets a group of wounded men. He tries
to help a tall soldier who dies but leaves a tattered soldier on a field. He
returns to the lines and a deserter hits him with a gun. Henry gets a head
wound. Marked by the 'red badge' in the evening he falls asleep with his
comrades. Next day he feels sore and stiff from his experiences, but in his
hatred starts to shoot blindly at the enemy. "Some of the men muttered and
looked, awe struck, at the youth. It was plain that as he had gone on
loading and firing and cursing without the proper intermission, they had
found time to regard him. And they now looked upon him as a war devil." In
the heat of the battle, he picks up the regiment's flag with his friend when
it falls from the color sergeant's hands. An officer, who has called him and
the other soldiers "mule drivers" calls them again "a lot of mud diggers".
Henry wants to die in the battle to prove the officer is wrong. He tries to
seize the enemy flag, but his friend is faster and wrenches it free from the
hands of the dying color bearer. He is filled with guilt when he remembers
the tattered soldier whom he had deserted. Henry suspects that his comrades
can read his thoughts. "Yet the youth smiled, for he saw that the world was
a world for him, though many discovered it to be made of oaths and walking
sticks. He had rid himself of the red sickness of battle. The sultry
nightmare was in the past. He had been an animal blistered and sweating in
the heat and pain of war. He turned now with a lover's thirst to images of
tranquil skies, fresh meadows, cool brooks -- an existence of soft and
eternal peace."
Crane's short story, 'The Open Boat,' is based on a true experience, when
his ship, a coal-burning tug heavy with ammunition and machetes, sank on the
journey to Cuba in 1896. With a small party of other passengers, Crane spent
several days drifting in an open boat before being rescued. This experience
impaired his health permanently.
--When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important, and
that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at
first wishes to THROW BRICKS AT THE TEMPLE, and he hates deeply the fact
that there are no bricks and no temples. Any visible expression of nature
would surely be pelleted with his jeers.
--Then, if there be no tangible thing to hoot at he feels, perhaps, the
desire to confront a personification and indulge in pleas, BOWED TO ONE
KNEE, and with hands supplicant, saying: 'Yes, but I love myself.'
(from 'The Open Boat')
In Greece Crane wrote about the Greco-Turkish War, settling in 1898 in
Sussex, England, where he lived with the author Cora TAYLOR, who was the
proprietress of the Hotel de Dream, a well-known Jacksonville sporting
house. In England Crane became friends with Joseph Conrad, H.G. Wells, and
HENRY JAMES.
In 1899 Crane returned to Cuba, to cover the Spanish-American War. Due to
poor health he was obliged to return to England. There he rented with Cora a
cold and wet 14th-century Sussex estate, called Brede Place. Crane died on
June 5, 1900 at Badenweiler in Germany of tuberculosis, that was worsened by
malarial fever he had caught in Cuba. He was 28 - his career has lasted only
eight years. After Crane's death his work was neglected for many years until
such writers as Amy Lowell and Willa Cather brought it again to public
attention. Crane introduced realism into American literature, although his
use of symbolism also gave much of his best work a romantic quality.>>
-----------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Tom Reedy
> Shakespeare posts here.
>
> I know this is an older book, but I had a question. Let's say that
> Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published? Do
> people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
> question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing to
> except maybe Hemingway.
Indeed, I believe Hemingway was wrong when he said all modern American
literature started with Huckleberry Finn. IMO it began with Stephen Crane.
I wanted something of the same caliber only
> newer. Who is a modern day writer (last ten years) who is considered
> a Superman/Superwoman author?
I'm not sure what you're asking for. If you're looking for a good military
writer, Ralph Peters is your man. If you're looking for a good literary
writer, Tim Gautreaux and Richard Russo are tops in my opinion, but there
are literally hundreds of good writers working today.
TR
Art Neuendorffer
> > Let's say that
> > Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published?
> > Do people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
> > question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing
> > to except maybe Hemingway.
"Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote
> Indeed, I believe Hemingway was wrong when he said all modern American
> literature started with Huckleberry Finn. IMO it began with Stephen Crane.
_Huckleberry Finn_ published in 1885 (Crane is 14 years
old)
_The Red Badge of Courage_ published in 1895
(You really ought to checkout _The Chronicles Room_ once in a while, Tom.)
Art Neuendorffer
jm
I guess my question about good authors today is too vague. I didn't
mean military. I just mean "good." I know that will get a lot of
opinions. What I am really looking for is one that can write well. I
suppose I just like the way he writes. The way his sentences are
constructed and how the paragraphs are arranged catch my eye. His
ability to describe and paint with words is astounding.
David Kathman
Maybe so, but it wouldn't be necessary to be a US soldier in Iraq
to duplicate Crane's achievement. Stephen Crane never served
in the military, and in fact barely ever left New York City in
his life. He learned all he knew about military life from books,
and perhaps from talking to veterans. He's a good example of
an author who wrote so convincingly about a subject that lots
of people mistakenly think he must have experienced it firsthand,
even though he didn't.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Alan Jones
"David Kathman" <dj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:bel83n$ec$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> In article <rlfPa.21566$0e7....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, "Alan
> Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Lots of people, including (alas) me. Thanks for putting me right.
Alan Jones
Bob Grumman
He seems to me much influenced by battle scenes from War and Peace,
also--which leads me to the obvious conclusion that he was a front for
Tolstoi.
--Bob G.
Argo1871
>to duplicate Crane's achievement. Stephen Crane never served
>in the military, and in fact barely ever left New York City in
>his life.
Actually, after he became famous through "The Red Badge", he got a job as a
newspaper correspondent and saw quite a lot of the world, particularly Mexico,
the American West, Greece, and England; he also covered the Spanish-American
War in Cuba. "Wounds in the Rain," a collection of stories inspired by what he
saw there, is a gem of a book that few people have read.
Richard Larsen
KQKnave
bobgr...@nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) writes:
>He seems to me much influenced by battle scenes from War and Peace,
>also--which leads me to the obvious conclusion that he was a front for
>Tolstoi.
>
Crane was my third great uncle. The Family has been doing this stuff for years.
See my demolition of Monsarrat's RES paper!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/monsarr1.html
The Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html
Agent Jim
richard kennedy
kqk...@aol.com (KQKnave) wrote in message news:<20030711142846...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
David Kathman
(Argo1871) wrote:
>>Maybe so, but it wouldn't be necessary to be a US soldier in Iraq
>>to duplicate Crane's achievement. Stephen Crane never served
>>in the military, and in fact barely ever left New York City in
>>his life.
>
>Actually, after he became famous through "The Red Badge", he got a job as a
>newspaper correspondent and saw quite a lot of the world, particularly Mexico,
>the American West, Greece, and England; he also covered the Spanish-American
>War in Cuba. "Wounds in the Rain," a collection of stories inspired by what he
>saw there, is a gem of a book that few people have read.
I should have said "barely ever left New York City before writing
The Red Badge of Courage", since, as you say, he did travel quite
a bit after becoming famous through the book.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
David L. Webb
"Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
(aneuendor...@comicass.nut) wrote:
I think that Tom was expressing an opinion concerning literary
influence, not a fact concerning chronology, Art -- but it is heartening
to see you checking dates for a change in any case. (You can go back to
assuring us that Virgil predated Herodotus and that a man born in Berlin
in 1923 was 54 years old in 2001 now, Art.)
Tom Reedy
news:david.l.webb-2CAD...@merrimack.dartmouth.edu...
I did not see Art's post, having shit-canned him a long time ago, and that
is exactly what I meant, David.
TR
bookburn
"Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:A2iPa.40202$C83.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "jm" <john_20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:j1fPa.22383$GL4.6224@rwcrnsc53...
> > I know this said it was a Shakespeare group, but I found
other than
> > Shakespeare posts here.
> >
> > I know this is an older book, but I had a question. Let's
say that
> > Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been
published? Do
> > people write like him at all today? I know it may be a
strange
> > question. I really don't know who to compare this type of
writing to
> > except maybe Hemingway.
>
> Indeed, I believe Hemingway was wrong when he said all modern
American
> literature started with Huckleberry Finn. IMO it began with
Stephen Crane.
Lionell Trilling attributes Twain's prose style as the influence
Hemingway apparently wrote about.
(quote)
It is this prose that Ernest Hemingway had chiefly in mind when
he said that "all modern American literature comes from one book
by Mark Twain called Huckleberry Finn." Hemingway's own prose
stems from it directly and consciously; so does the prose of the
two modern writers who most influenced Hemingway's early style,
Gertrude Stein and Sherwood Anderson (although neither of them
could maintain the robust purity of their model); so, too, does
the best of William Faulkner's prose, which, like Mark Twain's
own, reinforces the colloquial tradition with the literary
tradition. Indeed, it may be said that almost every contemporary
American writer who deals conscientiously with the problems and
possibilities of prose must feel, directly or indirectly, the
influence of Mark Twain. He is the master of the style that
escapes the fixity of the printed page, that sounds in our ears
with the immediacy of the heard voice, the very voice of
unpretentious truth.
(unquote)
Personally, I notice the archetypal theme of rivers in Twain that
Hemingway likes, too, in his Big Two-Hearted stories; symbolic
use of rivers in the novels, as in Across the River and Into the
Trees; and those Gulf Stream stories. This connects well with
the *bildungsroman* rise to consciousness motif, like Joyce's
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which refers to Twain, and
Finnegan's Wake, with the river in it; T.S. Eliot, in Four
Quartets; Wolfe's Of Time and the River, etc..
>
> I wanted something of the same caliber only
> > newer. Who is a modern day writer (last ten years) who is
considered
> > a Superman/Superwoman author?
Well, my thought is that Hemingway is going to be rediscovered as
a greater writer, soon. His prose style may be daunting, but the
realism behind it is constructive, I think. He got to the
simple, clear statement of identities more than just masculine
codes?
> I'm not sure what you're asking for. If you're looking for a
good military
> writer, Ralph Peters is your man. If you're looking for a good
literary
> writer, Tim Gautreaux and Richard Russo are tops in my opinion,
but there
> are literally hundreds of good writers working today.
Hemingway had trouble with the literary pundits who disliked his
hairy chest (tore the shirt off one to see if he had hair; he
didn't.) He wouldn't compromise. (Someone please make a list of
Shakespeare's non-compromises.) Looking at the writers of
fiction for popular markets with literary talent and favorable
publishers' opinion today seems problematic. I notice some
published writers try to move to New York, but head home soon.
I like the writers of non-fiction, anymore.
> TR
>
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Please point me to the right newsgroup if I am not supposed
to post here.
> > Thanks again.
]
It's always time for a story at HLAS.
bookburn
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > > Let's say that
> > > > Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published?
> > > > Do people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
> > > > question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing
> > > > to except maybe Hemingway.
>
> > "Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> > > Indeed, I believe Hemingway was wrong when he said all modern American
> > > literature started with Huckleberry Finn. IMO it began with Stephen
Crane.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > _Huckleberry Finn_ published in 1885 (Crane is 14 years old)
> > _The Red Badge of Courage_ published in 1895
> >
> > (You really ought to checkout _The Chronicles Room_ once in a while,
Tom.)
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
> I think that Tom was expressing an opinion concerning literary
> influence, not a fact concerning chronology, Art -
So Hemingway was simply WRONG when he said that
Huckleberry Finn was "modern" American literature?
(Who should we trust on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?)
> it is heartening to see you checking dates for a change in any case.
<<Saudi Arabia has 42 plants for the processing and packaging of dates. At
the factories, the loose dates are cleaned and sorted by variety. Some are
sent to be packaged as they are, and others will be pitted and stuffed with
almonds, coated with sesame seeds or dipped in chocolate. Other dates are
processed into date pastes, liquid sugar, candy, date toffee and date
syrup.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saudiembassy.net/publications/magazine-winter-97/date-palm.htm
<<In the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Mohammad),
many passages make mention of the importance of the date palm. In the
Qur'an, it is referred to 29 times and is called "a blessed tree." When the
Prophet built his mosque in Madinah, the pillars were constructed from the
trunks of palm trees and the roof was woven from palm fronds. Saudi women
have long chosen to eat dates when they are pregnant or nursing. In the
Qur'an, in sura (chapter) 19, verses 23-25, during the birth of Jesus, Mary
is guided to the palm tree to eat the dates to lessen the pains of
childbirth: "But (a voice ) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree):
Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; and SHAKE
towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe
dates upon thee."
During Ramadan, the annual month of fasting for Muslims, the daily fast is
broken with a few dates and then a few sips of water. The end of Ramadan is
celebrated with a four-day long feast, called Eid Al-Fitr, during which a
popular treat is small cookies with a date filling called ma'mul. When a
Saudi host offers a guest coffee, a plate of dates is always on hand to
sweeten it. Low in fat, cholesterol free, high in carbohydrates, fiber,
potassium and vitamins, dates stay fresh for several weeks when properly
stored.
The date farms of Saudi Arabia contain 14 million palm trees. They grow
primarily in the world's largest oasis, Al-Hasa, in the Eastern Province.
Al-Hasa's famous water springs and extensive irrigation system make it an
ideal area for the production of dates. As far back as 4000 B.C., there is
evidence pointing to date cultivation in what is now the Eastern Province of
Saudi Arabia. Other regions of the Kingdom known for their date palm groves
are Qatif, Qasim, Madinah and Bishah.
Only female date palms bear fruit, so for commercial purposes farmers plant
predominantly female trees. However, male trees that produce plentiful
pollen are very precious, as the quality of the male pollen influences the
size of the fruit and the rate at which it ripens. The female plant is
pollinated by artificial means. The traditional method involves cutting
several pollen clusters from the male tree and inverting them among clusters
of female flowers. While for centuries this practice was performed by hand,
today there are machines which have made the process quicker and easier.
Approximately one month after pollination, small green fruits begin to
appear on the female trees. As they grow during the summer months, the
intense heat withdraws the moisture and some of the sugar from them. As the
dates ripen, they go from green to either bright yellow or dark red in color
(depending on variety) and finally a dark brown at harvest time.>>
-------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Art Neuendorffer
The Tempest Act 5, Scene 1
ALONSO Whether thou best he or no,
Or some ENCHANTed trifle to abuse me,
Epilogue, Scene 1
PROSPERO Now I want
Spirits to enforce, ART to ENCHANT,
And my ending is despair,
-------------------------------------------
"Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote
> I did not see Art's post, having shit-canned him a long time ago,
"SHITCANNED"
"DISENCHANT"
DISENCHANT, v. t. [Pref. dis- + ENCHANT: cf. F. d['e]senchanter.] To free
from enchantment; to deliver from the power of charms or spells; to free
from fascination or delusion.
"Haste to thy work; a noble stroke or two
Ends all the charms, and DISENCHANTs the grove." --Dryden.
ENCHANT, v. t. [F. enchanter, L. incantare to chant or utter a magic formula
over or against one, to bewitch; in in, against + cantare to sing.] 1. To
charm by sorcery; to act on by enchantment; to get control of by magical
words and rites.
"He is enchanted, cannot speak." --Tennyson.
2. To delight in a high degree; to charm; to enrapture.
"Arcadia was the charmed circle where all his spirits
forever should be enchanted." --Sir P. Sidney.
----------------------------------------
King Henry VI, Part i Act 3, Scene 3
CHARLES Speak, Pucelle, and ENCHANT him with thy words.
----------------------------------------
Macbeth Act 4, Scene 1
HECATE O well done! I commend your pains;
And every one shall share i' the gains;
And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
ENCHANTing all that you put in.
----------------------------------------
Titus Andronicus Act 3, Scene 1
MARCUS ANDRONICUS O, that delightful engine of her thoughts
That blabb'd them with such pleasing eloquence,
Is torn from forth that pretty hollow cage,
Where, like a sweet melodious bird, it sung
Sweet varied notes, ENCHANTing every ear!
----------------------------------------
Venus and Adonis
'Bid me discourse, I will ENCHANT thine ear,
Or, like a fairy, trip upon the green,
Or, like a nymph, with long dishevell'd hair,
Dance on the sands, and yet no footing seen:
Love is a spirit all compact of fire,
Not gross to sink, but light, and will aspire.
These lovely caves, these round ENCHANTing pits,
Open'd their mouths to swallow Venus' liking.
Being mad before, how doth she now for wits?
Struck dead at first, what needs a second striking?
Poor queen of love, in thine own law forlorn,
To love a cheek that smiles at thee in scorn!
----------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
"Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
(aneuendor...@comicass.nut) wrote:
> > > > "jm" <john_20...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >
> > > > > Let's say that
> > > > > Stephen Crane wrote this today. Would it have been published?
> > > > > Do people write like him at all today? I know it may be a strange
> > > > > question. I really don't know who to compare this type of writing
> > > > > to except maybe Hemingway.
> > > "Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > >
> > > > Indeed, I believe Hemingway was wrong when he said all modern American
> > > > literature started with Huckleberry Finn. IMO it began with Stephen
> Crane.
> > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
> >
> > > _Huckleberry Finn_ published in 1885 (Crane is 14 years old)
> > > _The Red Badge of Courage_ published in 1895
> > >
> > > (You really ought to checkout _The Chronicles Room_ once in a while,
> Tom.)
> "David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
>
> > I think that Tom was expressing an opinion concerning literary
> > influence, not a fact concerning chronology, Art -
> So Hemingway was simply WRONG when he said that
> Huckleberry Finn was "modern" American literature?
>
> (Who [sic] should we trust on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?)
This is not a matter of whom one should "trust," as it is a matter of
individual taste, not a matter of fact. Tom may feel that _Huckleberry
Finn_ is oVERrated (he certainly would not be the first to express such
an opinion), or that its influence upon the development of American
literature has been oVERstated; if so, these are highly personal
opinions that can neither be decided by objective means nor settled by
appeal to authority.
> > it is heartening to see you checking dates for a change in any case.
[Art's lunatic logorrhea concerning the cultivation of dates in Saudi
Arabia snipped]
It must have been quite a while since you had a date, Art. HoweVER,
if aneuendor...@comicass.nut thinks that said lunatic logorrhea
is at all pertinent to the discussion, then it is little wonder that the
cretin thinks that Virgil predated Herodotus, that Aleksandr Nevskii was
"tsar," that a man born in Belin in the early 1920s was 54 years of age
in 2001, that a sense of "moniment" that did not exist until roughly the
mid-nineteenth century was used in the early 1600s, etc.
Tom Reedy
news:david.l.webb-FEFB...@merrimack.dartmouth.edu...
As usual for antistratfordians, Art N. has misunderstood Hemingway's
statement. Subtle (and not-so-subtle) shades of meaning are beyond most
antistrats, as this newsgroup so richly illustrates.
> > (Who [sic] should we trust on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?)
It is instructive that Art. N. believes that literary criticism is a matter
of fact, just as it was instructive that he thought I was referring to the
chronology of composition when I first stated my opinion on the beginnings
of modern American literature (not on Hemingway, and certainly not on my
rating of Huckleberry Finn, a novel I have read at least 10 times).
Instructive, but not surprising. Mr. N. obviously suffers from some type of
obsessive delusion, as he has displayed in this newsgroup for years. If his
unfortunate mental aberration were susceptible to ridicule, he would have
been cured of it long ago, but like most antistratfordians, apparently his
delusion satisfies some psychic need in himself that ordinary life fails to
provide.
TR
Art Neuendorffer
> > > So Hemingway was simply WRONG when he said that
> > > Huckleberry Finn was "modern" American literature?
Tom Reedy wrote:
> As usual for antistratfordians, Art N. has misunderstood Hemingway's
> statement. Subtle (and not-so-subtle) shades of meaning are beyond
> most antistrats, as this newsgroup so richly illustrates.
Subtle shades of meaning such as:
"Shakspere wrote Shake-speare because his name is on it." ?
> > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
> > > (Who [sic] should we trust on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?)
Tom Reedy wrote:
> It is instructive that Art. N. believes that literary criticism is a
matter
> of fact, just as it was instructive that he thought I was referring to the
> chronology of composition when I first stated my opinion on the beginnings
> of modern American literature (not on Hemingway, and certainly not on
> my rating of Huckleberry Finn, a novel I have read at least 10 times).
You should see his latest book: "Is Shakespeare Dead?"
Tom Reedy wrote:
> Instructive, but not surprising. Mr. N. obviously suffers from some type
of
> obsessive delusion, as he has displayed in this newsgroup for years. If
his
> unfortunate mental aberration were susceptible to ridicule, he would have
> been cured of it long ago, but like most antistratfordians, apparently his
> delusion satisfies some psychic need in himself that ordinary life fails
to
> provide.
"I'm as old as my tongue, and a little older than my teeth.
> Webb wrote:
> > This is not a matter of whom one should "trust," as it is a matter of
> > individual taste, not a matter of fact. Tom may feel that _Huckleberry
> > Finn_ is oVERrated (he certainly would not be the first to express such
> > an opinion), or that its influence upon the development of American
> > literature has been oVERstated; if so, these are highly personal
> > opinions that can neither be decided by objective means
> > nor settled by appeal to authority.
I would never settle anything by an appeal to authority.
> > > Webb wrote:
> > > > it is heartening to see you checking dates for a change in any case.
> Webb wrote:
> > [Art's lunatic logorrhea concerning the
> > cultivation of dates in Saudi Arabia snipped]
> >
> > It must have been quite a while since you had a date, Art.
I don't think my wife would approve, Dave, (they're fattening you know).
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
"Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
(aneuendor...@comicass.nut) wrote:
> > > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > > > So Hemingway was simply WRONG when he said that
> > > > Huckleberry Finn was "modern" American literature?
> Tom Reedy wrote:
>
> > As usual for antistratfordians, Art N. has misunderstood Hemingway's
> > statement. Subtle (and not-so-subtle) shades of meaning are beyond
> > most antistrats, as this newsgroup so richly illustrates.
As the Peter Gay incident illustrated, Art is doing well to extract
any meaning at all from a text, subtle or not.
[...]
> > > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
>
> > > > (Who [sic] should we trust on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?)
[...]
> > Webb wrote:
>
> > > This is not a matter of whom one should "trust," as it is a matter of
> > > individual taste, not a matter of fact. Tom may feel that _Huckleberry
> > > Finn_ is oVERrated (he certainly would not be the first to express such
> > > an opinion), or that its influence upon the development of American
> > > literature has been oVERstated; if so, these are highly personal
> > > opinions that can neither be decided by objective means
> > > nor settled by appeal to authority.
> I would never settle anything by an appeal to authority.
But Art -- you wrote above: "Who [sic] should we trust on this issue,
Hemingway or Reedy?"
[...]
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > > This is not a matter of whom one should "trust," as it is a
matter of
> > > > individual taste, not a matter of fact. Tom may feel that
_Huckleberry
> > > > Finn_ is oVERrated (he certainly would not be the first to express
such
> > > > an opinion), or that its influence upon the development of American
> > > > literature has been oVERstated; if so, these are highly personal
> > > > opinions that can neither be decided by objective means
> > > > nor settled by appeal to authority.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
> > I would never settle anything by an appeal to authority.
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote
> But Art -- you wrote above: "Who [sic] should we trust
> on this issue, Hemingway or Reedy?"
See the "?", Dave?
Art Neuendorffer
Paul Crowley
> Hemingway had trouble with the literary pundits who disliked his
> hairy chest (tore the shirt off one to see if he had hair; he
> didn't.) He wouldn't compromise. (Someone please make a list of
> Shakespeare's non-compromises.)
Was that request serious?
Paul.
bookburn
"Paul Crowley" <slkwuoiut...@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote in
message news:%tCQa.23030$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
Probably naive, considering the assumptions necessary to get
around the authorship controversy, although no telling how far
you could go with conflicts and what might be revealed. They say
publishers have certain caveats in their manuals, like the New
Yorker cautions against references to "sardine society," maybe an
author's agent directs changes to make to be favorably considered
by a publisher, one may have personal issues and attitudes that
create shocking vibrations, old wounds, etc..
I'm guessing that listing S's non-compromises would probably
reveal something of his art, since he must have been shrewed and
talented to dance around obstacles to writing popular plays for
the London populace, whose tastes he and Jonson candidly deplore.
Must have been a large set of compromises in doing that, even
more for an elite like Oxford.
I associate the concept of non-compromises, on one level, with
that of necessary practicalities in S's approach to composition
of the plays, assuming that compromises are negotiated when one
is hungry, addressed later. (Hemingway seems to have been very
rough later on those indebted to at first. He described himself
as a heavyweight boxer going after Tolstoi's title; Shakespeare
as the light-heavyweight champion. Elizabeth I seems to have had
her Essex and Raleigh cake, and enforced their diets later.
Maybe the dominant motive Stratman ever had was to get even with
Luce by being successful? Or did he think he was in the ring
with evil?
Arranged just as likes and dislikes in Shakespeare's fictional
world, the composit picture seems to me curiously ambivalent and
full of constructive ambiguity, though full of poetic asides,
colorful limns of a wide panoply of character types, and dramatic
situations. If there is artful treatment of significan themes in
the plays, the statement being made by the author seems
concealed, so mayby concealment is part of his art (ars est
celare artem?). My guess is that he saw himself as Jaques-like,
with motley morals but aware of grand designs and horrified by
amorality.
Anyway, I guess I'm only considering what in Shakespeare shows no
compromise. Hard to say if he had a personal list of
no-compromise virtues to keep shiny
as part of a Hemingway-like code.
bb
>
> Paul.
>
>
>
>
>
Tom Reedy
been writing too many academic papers of late, bookburn.
What he meant (and correct me if I'm wrong) was the impossibility of
pointing out non-compromises. Examples of Shakespeare's compromises are
pretty easy to point out, but identifying the times he refrained from doing
it is impossible.
TR
"bookburn" <book...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vh6c0j9...@corp.supernews.com...
bookburn
You see, I said it was naive, especially since I know Crowley is
foxy about trapping such an assertion to see if you will get in
over your head. Perhaps he recognizes my silly request as his
kind of bait (mock debate).
But if you conclude S made compromises that are easy to point
out, that's pretty impressive. Let's see, he violated the
classical unities and borrowed from available sources, used
vernacular speech patterns in the English sonnet form, pandered
to public and nobility tastes to be a success, came from a level
of society he burlesqued, worked in London while commuting to
Stratford.
Would your list be different?
My list of Shakespeare's compromises seems like branches of his
development as a world-class writer. Maybe he was like a
cultivated flower that emerged in a special environment, mostly
reacting to circumstances with native abilities? Unlike Jonson,
who said "Hee was (indeed) honest, and of an open, and free
nature : had an excellent Phantsie ; brave notions, and gentle
expressions : wherein hee flow'd with that facility, that
sometime it was necessary he should be stop'd :"--Jonson really
was a non-compromising, Hemingway sort capable of taking arms
against a sea of troubles in a moral battle with the
establishment.
bb
Tom Reedy
Just off the top of my head, we know he changed the name of a character
(Oldcastle) because of pressure from the family, and we know he toned down
the oaths after a law was passed againt them in plays. In more than one
play, he says his only purpose is to please.
> My list of Shakespeare's compromises seems like branches of his
> development as a world-class writer. Maybe he was like a
> cultivated flower that emerged in a special environment, mostly
> reacting to circumstances with native abilities? Unlike Jonson,
> who said "Hee was (indeed) honest, and of an open, and free
> nature : had an excellent Phantsie ; brave notions, and gentle
> expressions : wherein hee flow'd with that facility, that
> sometime it was necessary he should be stop'd :"--Jonson really
> was a non-compromising, Hemingway sort capable of taking arms
> against a sea of troubles in a moral battle with the
> establishment.
Yes, like Hemingway, Jonson was a self-promoter who contributed to his own
fictional persona in order to profit.
TR
> bb
>
>
>
Art Neuendorffer
>
> >He seems to me much influenced by battle scenes from War and Peace,
> >also--which leads me to the obvious conclusion that he was a front for
> >Tolstoi.
> >
> Crane was my third great uncle. The Family has been doing this stuff for
years.
What stuff is that?
Art Neuendorffer