"infinite" in Marlowe, Shakespeare, Sandys.
Yogi Buchon
Many months ago, I posted a message which pointed out that both
Christopher Marlowe and George Sandys used the expression "infinite
riches". Since that time, I've had occasion to use a searchable,
literary database--subscribed to by most university libraries--to do
some minor research on the use of "infinite" within the realm of
poetry or drama. The link to this database is:
At least five more authors besides Marlowe and Sandys use "infinite
riches" in a poetic or dramatic work, viz. Chapman, Chivers, Harpur,
Simpson, Tagore, and Woodford. But, even if it were only Marlowe and
Sandys, it would prove nothing. "Infinite riches" comes from a
memorable line in Marlowe's *The Jew of Malta*, and so it may have a
higher likelihood of being used inadvertently by another author. So,
what about uses of "infinite" that are little more down in the
literary noise: a little less memorable, a little less subject to
being mimicked. I focused on the following three usages: (1) "as
infinite as", (2) "how infinite", and (3) "so infinite". Which
authors use all three of these expressions in their works of poetry or
drama?
The first expression, "as infinite as", is used by 13 different
authors including Shakespeare and Sandys. Of these 13 authors, only
three use both "as infinite as" and "how infinite", viz. Shakespeare,
Sandys, and a Frederick William Orde Ward. Unfortunately, Ward does
not use "so infinite". So, the only two authors that use all three
expressions are Shakespeare and Sandys. Again, it proves nothing, but
it's interesting and a little surprising.
Now, it turns out that Shakespeare and Sandys have yet more
commonalities in their usage of infinite. Both use infinite to modify
a plural noun by placing it after rather than before the noun, e.g.
"considerations infinite" and "joys infinite". And, if Edward III is
included in the canon as Riverside has done, then both Shakespeare and
Sandys use the expression "both infinite". If Edward III is not
included, then Shakespeare still says "both are infinite" in RJ.
So, my point is this: if Marlowe did indeed survive beyond 1593--and
to me, as well as many others, this is *not* so far-fetched--then he
wrote Shakespeare's plays and poems until about 1611. What about after
1611? Based on the commonality between Shakespeare and Sandys noted
above, it is again *not* so far-fetched that Marlowe may have written
the poetry of Sandys as well. I challenge all Marlovians here at HLAS
to search all the poetical works of George Sandys for literary
parallels with both Marlowe and Shakespeare. You may be amazed at what
you find. But, of course, it proves nothing.
Truly,
Yogi buchon
Bob Grumman
that Sandys, Marlowe and Shakespeare all used that word, too. If they all used
it in describing a room . . . well, I hardly dare to try to find out.
--Bob G.
Reticulum
"Infinite riches" comes from a
> memorable line in Marlowe's *The Jew of Malta*,
<snip>
Excuse me, but I thought that line came from "Faustus"
and goes ( on memory now ) something like this:
"Infinite riches in a tiny cage,
Bars do not keep me in,
They keep thee out! "
Spoken by the "Greed" of the 7 Deadly Sins.
This has nothing to do with the main point you were trying to make.
But correct me if I'm wrong.
Yogi Buchon
> I think you're right. My preliminary research into the use of "small" shows
> that Sandys, Marlowe and Shakespeare all used that word, too.
Yes, quite right, Bob. Sandys, Marlowe, and Shakespeare all use the
word "small". However, if you were a person of some honesty and
magnanimity, you might have pointed out that Sandys, Marlowe, and
Shakespeare are not the only three authors to use the word "small".
So, for your benefit, please allow me to repeat the end result of my
research: Shakespeare and Sandys are the *ONLY* authors within the
vast database of "Literature Online" to use all three of the
expressions "as infinite as", "how infinite", and "so infinite" within
the realm of poetry or drama.
I wonder, did you spend some time double-checking my results? Here's
one error you evidently missed. In my original posting, I wrote:
The first expression, "as infinite as", is used by
13 different authors including Shakespeare and Sandys.
Of these 13 authors, only three use both "as infinite as"
and "how infinite", viz. Shakespeare, Sandys, and a
Frederick William Orde Ward. Unfortunately, Ward does
not use "so infinite". So, the only two authors that use
all three expressions are Shakespeare and Sandys.
Well, it turns out that there are 13 poets and 5 dramatists who use
"as infinite as", but Robert Armin appears as both poet and dramatist.
So, instead of "13 different authors" as I originally wrote, there are
a total of 17 different authors.
So, Bob, maybe you can now ridicule the methods that were used to
convince the editors of the Riverside Shakespeare that Edward III
belongs in the Shakespeare canon. I love to see your poor judgement
and disrespectful character on display.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
Yogi Buchon
Your juvenile attitude stands corrected.
Truly,
Yogi Buchon
A theory about English dramatist and poet Christopher Marlowe:
1. He converted to Catholicism in 1593
after befriending Southampton.
2. He faked his death in May 1593
with Southampton and Walsingham's help.
3. He traveled through France and Italy
from June to December 1593.
4. He lived in exile on the island of Malta
from December 1593 to June 1611.
5. He worked as a merchant under the alias
"William Watts" while on Malta.
6. He wrote all of the literary work attributed to
William Shakespeare.
7. He met Thomas Lodge, Caravaggio, and George Sandys
while in exile.
8. He left Malta with George Sandys in June 1611
ending his exile there.
9. He returned to England in 1612
and lived near Canterbury until 1621.
10. He collaborated with George Sandys
but wrote no more plays after 1611.
11. He sailed to Virginia Colony with George Sandys
in July 1621.
12. He died shortly after the Indian uprising at Jamestown
on March 22, 1622.
Art Neuendorffer
> > "Infinite riches" comes from a memorable line
> > in Marlowe's *The Jew of Malta*,
> Excuse me, but I thought that line came from "Faustus"
> and goes ( on memory now ) something like this:
>
> "Infinite riches in a tiny cage,
> Bars do not keep me in,
> They keep thee out! "
>
> Spoken by the "Greed" of the 7 Deadly Sins.
>
> This has nothing to do with the main point you were trying to make.
> But correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong:
--------------------------------------------------
"Infinite riches in a little room."
--------------------------------------------------
John Bartlett. Familiar Quotations.
AUTHOR: Christopher Marlowe (1564-1593)
ATTRIBUTION: The Jew of Malta. Act i.
BIOGRAPHY: Columbia Encyclopedia.
---------------------------------------------------
a great reckoning in a little roome:
---------------------------------------------------
[As You Like It 3.3]
Enter Clowne, Audrey, & Iaques.
Clo. Come apace good Audrey, I wil fetch vp your
Goates, Audrey: and how Audrey am I the man yet?
Doth my simple feature content you?
Aud. Your features, Lord warrant vs: what features?
Clo. I am heere with thee, and thy Goats, as the most
capricious Poet honest Ouid was among the Gothes.
Iaq. O knowledge ill inhabited, worse then Ioue in
a thatch'd house.
Clo. When a mans verses cannot be vnderstood, nor
a mans good wit seconded with the forward childe, vn-
derstanding: it strikes a man more dead then a great rec-
koning in a little roome: truly, I would the Gods hadde
made thee poeticall.
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/03/02/shakespeare/index.html
Mystery man By Gavin McNett
<<There's more to the case as well: Funny references in the
plays, Marlowe's own motto woven into texts, a rustic boob
named "Falstaff" (as in, Shake-spear) -- stuff like that.
But the question remains: Does it matter who wrote
Shakespeare? As the scholar Touchstone (get it? It's
another, ruder pun) says to a rustic boob in "As You Like
It," "When a man's verses cannot be understood, nor a man's
good wit seconded with the forward child Understanding, it
strikes a man more dead than a great reckoning in a little
room.">>
------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
John W. Kennedy
This is the ware wherein consists my wealth;
And thus methinks should men of judgment frame
Their means of traffic from the vulgar trade,
And, as their wealth increaseth, so inclose
Infinite riches in a little room.
-- "The Jew of Malta", I, i
The only speech by "Covetousness" in "Faustus" is:
I am Covetousness, begotten of an old churl, in an
old leathern bag: and, might I have my wish, I would desire that
this house and all the people in it were turned to gold, that I
might lock you up in my good chest: O, my sweet gold!
--
John W. Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- "She-Spies"
Bob Grumman
>> that Sandys, Marlowe and Shakespeare all used that word, too.
>
>Yes, quite right, Bob. Sandys, Marlowe, and Shakespeare all use the
>word "small". However, if you were a person of some honesty and
>magnanimity, you might have pointed out that Sandys, Marlowe, and
>Shakespeare are not the only three authors to use the word "small".
I think that goes without saying, just as the fact that many more writers than
your three all use the word, "infinite"--though perhaps not exactly as your
three use it, though certainly more than your three use it exactly as your three
use it, regardless of what your data base says. And even if not, so what?
>So, for your benefit, please allow me to repeat the end result of my
>research: Shakespeare and Sandys are the *ONLY* authors within the
>vast database of "Literature Online" to use all three of the
>expressions "as infinite as", "how infinite", and "so infinite" within
>the realm of poetry or drama.
All three?! Whoopee!
>I wonder, did you spend some time double-checking my results?
Of course not. Your method is not worth checking the results of.
>So, Bob, maybe you can now ridicule the methods that were used to
>convince the editors of the Riverside Shakespeare that Edward III
>belongs in the Shakespeare canon. I love to see your poor judgement
>and disrespectful character on display.
The Riverside editors did a helluva lot more to establish their claim than the
kind of thing you've done with "infinite." Tell me, did those editors really
argue even once that Shakespeare wrote Edward III because both he and the author
of Edward III both used some word in phrase A, phrase B and phrase C, and while
there were plenty of other authors who used that word in one or two of those
phrases, none were known to have used it in all three?
--Bob G.
>
>Truly,
>
>Yogi Buchon
Reticulum
Andrew
lyra
> Reticulum wrote
>
> > > "Infinite riches" comes from a memorable line
> > > in Marlowe's *The Jew of Malta*,
>
> "Infinite riches in a little room."
> --------------------------------------------------
> John Bartlett. Familiar Quotations.
>
> AUTHOR: Christopher Marlowe (1564-1593)
> ATTRIBUTION: The Jew of Malta. Act i.
> BIOGRAPHY: Columbia Encyclopedia.
> http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/03/02/shakespeare/index.html
>
> Mystery man By Gavin McNett
>
> <<There's more to the case as well: Funny references in the
> plays, Marlowe's own motto woven into texts, a rustic boob
> named "Falstaff" (as in, Shake-spear) -- stuff like that.
or "false taff" (a Welshman,
taff or taffy)
(quote)
Taffi, Taffis [TA fi, TA fis] (masculine noun) [禅aff, Taffy';
nickname given by the English to a Welsh person. Popular etymology
connects it with the river Taf [TAAF] in South-east Wales, since it is
anglicised as 禅aff'. In fact, it is from the common forename 船afdd'
[DA-vidh] or a short form of this 船afi' [DA-vi]. The strongly
aspirated initial 船' was heard as a 禅', and the 膳' heard as an 詮'.
Compare 善addy' for an Irishman (from Irish P疆raig), and 遷ock' for a
Scotsman (from Lowlandic for 遷ack', 遷ohn')
http://www.estelnet.com/catalunyacymru/catala/gbs_t.htm
(unquote)
> But the question remains: Does it matter who wrote
> Shakespeare?
Yes
Argo1871
That line is used in the Richard Burton film version of "Doctor Faustus".
Rather awkwardly, the producers of that film decided to cobble together a bunch
of stray Marlovian lines from other plays to form a "new" Seven Deadly Sins
scene.
Anyhow, as they have it, Greed, locked inside a little cage, plays with money
while he quotes Barabas, though he says "Infinite riches in a little room," not
"in a tiny cage". Maybe that's what you're thinking of.
Christian Lanciai
Very interesting. Do you know if any Marlowe research has ever been
conducted on Malta? - The Marlowe-Sandys connection sounds definitely
obvious.
Chris
Elizabeth Weir
> that Sandys, Marlowe and Shakespeare all used that word, too. If they all used
> it in describing a room . . . well, I hardly dare to try to find out.
>
> --Bob G.
>
My research into "infinite" in Hamlet connects the Renaissance
genius Francis Bacon to his father's friend Thomas Digges of
the distinguished Digges family of Kent, friends to the
Bacons [from Kent] for four generations. Peter Usher writes:
Shakespeare's Hamlet contains an allegorical
description of the competition between two
cosmological models: the infinite Sun-centered
universe of Thomas Digges (c.1546-1595) of
England, and a hybrid Earth-centered model
of Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) of Denmark.
That sounds just like the thing that would pop into
the Burgher's mind as he was counting the bags of corn
he confiscated from the poor of Warwickshire as penalties
on late tithes, duhnit, Grumman.
Bob Grumman
>My research into "infinite" in Hamlet connects the Renaissance
>genius Francis Bacon to his father's friend Thomas Digges of
>the distinguished Digges family of Kent, friends to the
>Bacons [from Kent] for four generations. Peter Usher writes:
>
> Shakespeare's Hamlet contains an allegorical
> description of the competition between two
> cosmological models: the infinite Sun-centered
> universe of Thomas Digges (c.1546-1595) of
> England, and a hybrid Earth-centered model
> of Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) of Denmark.
>
>That sounds just like the thing that would pop into
>the Burgher's mind as he was counting the bags of corn
>he confiscated from the poor of Warwickshire as penalties
>on late tithes, duhnit, Grumman.
No, Elizabeth, it sounds more like the kind of moronic crap a psychotic wanting
to protect herself from the possibility that someone not properly educated could
have done important cultural work would read into a play.
--Bob G.
Yogi Buchon
> yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon) wrote in message news:<9251b822.03042...@posting.google.com>...
> > rock_...@yahoo.com (Reticulum) wrote in message news:<879bfb06.03042...@posting.google.com>...
> > > <SNIP>
> >
I've read about research being done into whether Marlowe visited Malta
based on his accurate knowledge of the island within his play "The Jew
of Malta". See Lisa Hopkin's online essay and notes below (especially
read notes 6, 8, and 18).
Essay:
http://www.millersv.edu/~resound/*vol1iss2/malta/topmalta.html
Notes:
http://www.millersv.edu/~resound/*vol1iss2/malta/malta_notes.html
I don't know of anyone currently doing serious research into whether
Marlowe was living on Malta at some time after 1593. I wish I had the
language skills, time, and money to do some Marlovian research in
Malta and the surrounding Mediterranean area. I've never visited the
island, I'm not doing any research with original sources, and I have
no plans to write an essay, article, or book. My main purpose in
posting to HLAS is to try to generate interest in the 12-point theory
above. I'm hoping that someone with better qualifications than myself
can confirm at least some of the theory with hard evidence. In
addition to English, I think Italian, French, and Latin are the key
languages needed to do some serious work on Malta. If you are
interested in tracking down Marlowe on Malta, go for it!
But, what happened to this thread?! My original posting is missing, as
well as several others. Are you seeing the entire thread on your
computer?
Truly,
Yogi
Christian Lanciai
No, I am not. A number of posts have been vanishing over the last
week, as if some clandestine censure was going on. I hope all the lost
posts can be restored - I would have answered a few if they hadn't
vanished!
Thanks anyway for your most valuable information. Your 12-point theory
definitely deserves some attention.
yours,
Chris
Yogi Buchon
Thank you Elizabeth. You've provided a good mirror. But, like Richard
II staring into his own unkinged face, some people will smash a
mirror if the image staring back is vile and nasty.
Truly,
Yogi
Reticulum
Yes, thanks. After the post by John I went over where I might've
gotten it from. I re-watched that movie back in the winter.
Reticulum
Remove "your.hat" when replying via e-mail