Is this portrait Shakespeare?
Peter Fokes
causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
Peter Fokes
http://www.toronto.hm/
From Toronto With Love
Symposium1
<pfo...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from generation to generation is
>causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
>portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
>heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
>
>http://www.globeandmail.ca/
The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
--Ann
Neuendorffer
> <pfo...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
> >Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from generation to generation is
> >causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
> >portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
> >heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
> >
> >http://www.globeandmail.ca/
Symposium1 wrote:
>
> The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
Our own?
----------------------------------------------------
<<"We know so little about Shakespeare that it's always wonderful and
important to get a bit more information," said Richard Monette, artistic
director of the Stratford Festival in Stratford, Ont.
He said the painting's discovery in Canada made him quite emotional.
"If it is authentic, it is Shakespeare in the New World. I'd love to
adopt him as our Shakespeare.">>
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/9134/
"All hosers in Russia and Hawaii and England, and, you know, other
places . . . Welcome to our homepage, eh? Grab a cold one and help
yourself to a donut. Wait! Don't take the last Jelly, ok? Take one of
the Cholocate Frosted. Those are good. So, this is, like, our multi-
media extravaganza, eh? It's a beauty. Now we're, like, cyber-hosers.
Doug did the computer stuff. He's a genius. He hooked up our stereo, eh?
But I helped. So, here is stuff from our album and our movie. Buy 'em,
'cuz we could use the money for beer! And send us E-mail
while you're here, you nob!
------------------------------------------------------
<<"I believe it was Northrop Frye who said it's hard to reconcile
oneself to the idea that the Shakespeare on the Folio, a 'blinking
idiot,' is the real one," he said.
"But this, this is a very romantic picture."
The portrait has been handed down through the owner's family for
generations, always with the piece of lore that it was painted by one
John Sanders, reputedly a bit actor in the same theatrical company as
Shakespeare who also did such jobs as painting scene sets.
There was more debate yesterday over who Mr. Sanders might have been.
The on-line international genealogy index lists a John Sanders as being
christened in Worcester, England, in March, 1575.
--------------------------------------------------------
UNDER THE NAME OF SANDERS
----------------------------------------------------------
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/orders/orders1.html
<<The following is an extract from Mr. Hampton’s narrative:
"In the beginning of King James his reigne there came out a book
UNDER THE NAME OF SANDERS with the story of the Nagg’s head ordination.
This book made a great noyse and was wonderfully cry’d up by the Roman
Catholics as sapping the whole reformation at once by destroying the
Episcopacy. This book was showed to King James and upon his reading of
it it startled (sic) him.">>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
<<Once upon a time, a very long time ago now, about last Friday,
Winnie-the-Pooh lived in a forest all by himself
UNDER THE NAME OF SANDERS.
("What does 'under the name' mean?" asked Christopher Robin.
"It means he had the name over the door in gold letters,
and lived under it."
"Winnie-the-Pooh wasn't quite sure," said Christopher Robin.
"Now I am," said a growly voice.
"Then I will go on," said I.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Winnie-The-Pooh
Description: A bear of very little brain.
Alias: Pooh Bear, Winnie-the-Pooh, and Edward Bear.
Known to live "under the name of Sanders."
"It means he had the name (Sanders) over the door
in gold letters, and (Pooh) lived under it."
Honors: Knighted "Sir Pooh de Bear" by Christopher Robin.
Discoverer of the North Pole.
Address: 100 Aker Wood West
-------------------------------------------------------------------
100 Aik-Wood
-------------------------------------------------------------------
_The Antiquary_ - Sir Walter Scott
<<And, ohon! I wish that and the like o' that
had been the warst o't! Whiles they wad hae heard
the din we were making in the very bowels o' the earth,
when SANDERS AIKWOOD, that was forester in thae days,
the father o' Ringan that now is, was gaun daundering
about the wood at e'en, to see after the Laird's game and
whiles he wad hae seen a glance o' the light frae the door o' the
cave, flaughtering against the hazels on the other bank;---and
then siccan stories as Sanders had about the worricows and
gyre-carlins that haunted about the auld wa's at e'en, and the
lights that he had seen, and the cries that he had heard, when
there was nae mortal e'e open but his ain; and eh! as he wad
thrum them ower and ower to the like o' me ayont the ingle
at e'en, and as I wad gie the auld silly carle grane for grane,
and tale for tale, though I ken'd muckle better about it than
ever he did.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
_Autobiography_ - Benjamin Franklin
<<In 1732,
I first publish'd my Almanack, under the name of Richard Saunders;
it was continu'd by me about twenty-five years, commonly call'd
Poor Richard's Almanac. I endeavor'd to make it both entertaining
and useful, and it accordingly came to be in such demand, that I
reap'd considerable profit from it, vending annually near ten thousand.
And observing that it was generally read, scarce any neighborhood
in the province being without it, I consider'd it as a proper vehicle
for conveying instruction among the common people, who bought scarcely
any other books; I therefore filled all the little spaces that occurr'd
between the remarkable days in the calendar with proverbial sentences,
chiefly such as inculcated industry and frugality, as the means
of procuring wealth, and thereby securing virtue; it being more
difficult for a man in want, to act always honestly, as, to use
here one of those proverbs, it is hard for an empty sack to stand
up-right. These proverbs, which contained the wisdom of many ages and
nations, I assembled and form'd into a connected discourse prefix'd to
the Almanack of 1757, as the harangue of a wise old man to the people
attending an auction. The bringing all these scatter'd counsels thus
into a focus enabled them to make greater impression.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Fox's Book of Martyrs
<<When they had arrived at Coventry, a poor shoemaker, who used to serve
him with shoes, came to him, and said, "O my good master, God strengthen
and comfort you." "Good shoemaker," Mr. Saunders replied, "I desire thee
to pray for me, for I am the most unfit man for this high office, that
ever was appointed to it; but my gracious God and dear Father is able to
make me strong enough." The next day, being the eighth of February,
1555, he was led to the place of execution, in the park, without the
city. He went in an old gown and a shirt, barefooted, and oftentimes
fell flat on the ground, and prayed. When he was come to nigh the place,
the officer, appointed to see the execution done, said to Mr. Saunders
that he was one of them who marred the queen's realm, but if he would
recant, there was pardon for him. "Not I," replied the holy martyr, "but
such as you have injured the realm. The blessed Gospel of Christ is what
I hold; that do I believe, that have I taught, and that will I never
revoke!" Mr. Saunders then slowly moved towards the fire, sank to the
earth and prayed; he then rose up, embraced the stake, and frequently
said, "Welcome, thou cross of Christ! welcome everlasting life!" Fire
was then put to the fagots, and, he was overwhelmed by the dreadful
flames, and sweetly slept in the Lord Jesus.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Poor Richard [SAUNDERS] Almanac.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Courteous Reader_,
I might in this place at tempt to gain thy Favour, by declaring that I
write Almanacks with no other View than that of the publick Good; but in
this I should not be sincere; and Men are now a-days too wise to be
deceiv'd by Pretences how specious soever. The plain Truth of the Matter
is, I am excessive poor, and my Wife, good Woman, is, I tell her,
excessive proud; she cannot bear, she says, to sit spinning in her Shift
of Tow, while I do nothing but gaze at the Stars; and has threatned more
than once to burn all my Books and Rattling-Traps (as she calls my
Instruments) if I do not make some profitable Use of them for the good
of my Family. The Printer has offer'd me some considerable share of the
Profits, and I have thus begun to comply with my Dame's desire. Indeed
this Motive would have had Force enough to have made me publish an
Almanack many Years since, had it not been overpower'd by my Regard for
my good Friend and Fellow-Student, Mr. _Titan Leeds_, whose Interest
I was extreamly unwilling to hurt: But this Obstacle (I am far from
speaking it with Pleasure) is soon to be removed, since inexorable
Death, who was never known to respect Merit, has already prepared the
mortal DART . . .
_R. SAUNDERS._
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
<<But David Kathman, a Chicago stock analyst with a doctorate in
linguistics who is the author of the authoritative Biographical Index of
Elizabethan Theatre, said there was no record of any John Sanders in the
theatrical companies of the time. Mr. Kathman said a William Sanders was
a musician with the King's Men
in the 1620s, and a John Sands was a provincial puppet showman in the
1620s. James Sands was a minor actor with the King's Men in the first
decade of the 17th century.
Fleay's History of London Stages from the 1800s puts "J. Sanders" in the
King's Men at the same time as Shakespeare. Fleays is cited in Notes on
the Bacon-Shakespeare Question, by Charles Allen, published by AMS
Press in 1970. But Mr. Kathman dismissed Fleay's as ancient and
unreliable. However, he acknowledged: "Especially with the minor actors,
the information we have is very sketchy. I don't think lack of
documentation of a John Sanders disproves anything. This Sanders could
have been primarily a scene painter."
The Canadian owner of the portrait took it out of the cupboard and began
the authentication as a retirement project, which has turned into a long
and
expensive process of analysis. The research confirmed it is from the
period, that the date it bears (1603) was added at the time, and that
the
linen label that identifies it as Shakespeare was from the right era.
------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Orgel, a professor at Stanford University and one of the world's
leading Shakespearean scholars, seized on the hair in the portrait. "We
know Shakespeare had light brown or auburn hair," he said. "The fact
that the hair is the right colour is the best argument in its favour."
The source of information on the hair colour is the Stratford bust, on
which the hair was originally painted auburn. But there are no other
contemporary descriptions of Shakespeare with which to compare the
painting, he said.
At the University of Toronto, Shakespearean scholars took competing
positions. John Ashington, another professor of English, was highly
skeptical of the picture. "It looks like another Elizabethan panel
painting to me," he said. "The man looks too young to me, and
Shakespeare was 40. And he would have been more respectably dressed at
that time of his life. If he was sitting for a portrait, he would have
dressed himself up more."
-------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3AFD8096...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > In article <_0eL6.72262$_f3.13...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Peter Fokes"
> > <pfo...@sympatico.ca> writes:
> >
> > >Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from generation to generation
> > >is
> > >causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
> > >portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
> > >heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
> > >
> > >http://www.globeandmail.ca/
> Symposium1 wrote:
> >
> > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
> Our own?
Well, Art, if Ann identifies him as one of "our own," doesn't that
mean that Ann, too, is a Templar conspirator?
[...]
But Art -- the brown bear of northern Europe is _Ursus arctos_, a
perfect anagram of "Art, our cuss." Thus, *you yourself* are plainly
identified as one of us, Art! The epithet "of VERy little brain"
clinches the identification beyond doubt!
> Alias: Pooh Bear, Winnie-the-Pooh, and Edward Bear.
> Known to live "under the name of Sanders."
> "It means he had the name (Sanders) over the door
> in gold letters, and (Pooh) lived under it."
>
> Honors: Knighted "Sir Pooh de Bear" by Christopher Robin.
> Discoverer of the North Pole.
>
> Address: 100 Aker Wood West
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 100 Aik-Wood
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> _The Antiquary_ - Sir Walter Scott
>
> <<And, ohon! I wish that and the like o' that
> had been the warst o't! Whiles they wad hae heard
> the din we were making in the very bowels o' the earth,
> when SANDERS AIKWOOD, that was forester in thae days,
> the father o' Ringan that now is, was gaun daundering
> about the wood at e'en, to see after the Laird's game and
> whiles he wad hae seen a glance o' the light frae the door o' the
> cave, flaughtering against the hazels on the other bank;---and
> then siccan stories as Sanders had about the worricows and
> gyre-carlins that haunted about the auld wa's at e'en, and the
> lights that he had seen, and the cries that he had heard, when
> there was nae mortal e'e open but his ain; and eh! as he wad
> thrum them ower and ower to the like o' me ayont the ingle
> at e'en, and as I wad gie the auld silly CARLE grane for grane,
[emphasis added]
But Art -- *your* middle name is Carl! This identification is
ironclad!
David Webb
bookburn
news:120520012027220481%David....@Dartmouth.edu...
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <3AFD8096...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer
<ph...@erols.com>
> (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>
> > > In article <_0eL6.72262$_f3.13...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Peter Fokes"
> > > <pfo...@sympatico.ca> writes:
> > >
> > > >Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from
generation to generation
> > > >is
> > > >causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this
fascinating
> > > >portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you
will see the
> > > >heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the
url:
> > > >
> > > >http://www.globeandmail.ca/
And I find another longish article at the foot of this one,
linked as:
'It's time to reveal Shakespeare to the world'
Stephanie Nolen
Saturday, May 12, 2001
bookburn
Peter Fokes
"Neuendorffer" <ph...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3AFD8096...@erols.com...
Is it the mention of "our" esteemed and - god bless his soul - departed Frye
master that
inspired you to surf the web for more Canadian delicacies as per la url
above? Let me apprise you
of the incontrovertible evidence the site you cite is a hoax. Why? There is
no French translation.
Could they really be from Idaho?
Peter
Neuendorffer
> > >
> > > >Is this Shakespeare?
> > > > A portrait handed down from generation to generation is
> > > >causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
> > > >portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
> > > >heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
> > > >
> > > >http://www.globeandmail.ca/
> >
> > Symposium1 wrote:
> > >
> > > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
> "Neuendorffer" <ph...@erols.com> wrote
> > Our own?
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > <<"We know so little about Shakespeare that it's always wonderful and
> > important to get a bit more information," said Richard Monette, artistic
> > director of the Stratford Festival in Stratford, Ont.
> >
> > He said the painting's discovery in Canada made him quite emotional.
> >
> > "If it is authentic, it is Shakespeare in the New World. I'd love to
> > adopt him as our Shakespeare.">>
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/9134/
> >
> > "All hosers in Russia and Hawaii and England, and, you know, other
> > places . . . Welcome to our homepage, eh? Grab a cold one and help
> > yourself to a donut. Wait! Don't take the last Jelly, ok? Take one of
> > the Cholocate Frosted. Those are good. So, this is, like, our multi-
> > media extravaganza, eh? It's a beauty. Now we're, like, cyber-hosers.
> > Doug did the computer stuff. He's a genius. He hooked up our stereo, eh?
> > But I helped. So, here is stuff from our album and our movie. Buy 'em,
> > 'cuz we could use the money for beer! And send us E-mail
> > while you're here, you nob!
Peter Fokes wrote:
> Is it the mention of "our" esteemed and - god bless his soul - departed Frye
> master that inspired you to surf the web for more Canadian delicacies as per
> la url above?
--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.frymaster.com/
Welcome to the Frymaster web
site! We are the foodservice
equipment industry's leading
supplier of:
Commercial fryers
Filtration Systems
Computers
Water-bath rethermalizers
Pasta cookers
-------------------------------------------------
Peter Fokes wrote:
> Let me apprise you of the incontrovertible
> evidence the site you cite is a hoax.
> Why? There is no French translation.
> Could they really be from Idaho?
Ontario, you nob!:
DAVE THOMAS b. May 20, 1949 in St.Catharines, Ontario.
RICK MORANIS b. April 18, 1953 in Toronto, Ontario
Art Neuendorffer
Symposium1
<David....@Dartmouth.edu> writes:
>n article <3AFD8096...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
>(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>> Symposium1 wrote:
>> >
>> > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
>
>> Our own?
>
> Well, Art, if Ann identifies him as one of "our own," doesn't that
>mean that Ann, too, is a Templar conspirator?
You crazy kids. I don't know whether to ground you or tousle your hair.
--Ann
Tom Reedy
news:120520012027220481%David....@Dartmouth.edu...
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <3AFD8096...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
> (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>
> > > In article <_0eL6.72262$_f3.13...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Peter
Fokes"
> > > <pfo...@sympatico.ca> writes:
> > >
> > > >Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from generation to
generation
> > > >is
> > > >causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
> > > >portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see
the
> > > >heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
> > > >
> > > >http://www.globeandmail.ca/
>
> > Symposium1 wrote:
> > >
> > > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
>
> > Our own?
>
> Well, Art, if Ann identifies him as one of "our own," doesn't that
> mean that Ann, too, is a Templar conspirator?
>
By using the exact construction Leonard Digges used to identify William
Shakespeare ("our own Will Shakspere"), Ann has let slip a valuable clue.
Go to it, Art!
TR
David Kathman
As I told the reporter, the portrait may well be genuine, but the
provenance claimed by the current owner is no help in that regard,
since there is no record of any "John Sanders" associated with
the English theater at the appropriate time. I talked to the
reporter for about 20 minutes, and she told me some things that
weren't in the printed article. The painting gives every indication
of having been painted around 1600; the oak on which it is painted
dates from around then, and there is no evidence that the paint
has been tampered with or altered since then. The rag paper tag
on the back which identifies the sitter as Shakespeare also
apparently dates from the right time, according to various tests.
However, the writing on the tag is no longer visible to the naked
eye, but is visible under ultraviolet light. If this is a forgery,
it's an extremely good one. A more likely possibility is that it's
a painting of someone else that somebody decided to label "Shakespeare",
but if so, it looks like they did so in the 17th century, not
long after Shakespeare's death.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Tom Reedy
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cp
t111.html
Neuendorffer
Notre Dame de Paris by Victor Marie Hugo
VII. The Spectre-Monk
<<The old hag treated him like a lord and shut up the čcu in a drawer.
It was the coin Phśbus
had received form the man in the cloak. No sooner was her back turned,
than the little
tousle-headed ragamuffin playing in the cinders stole to the drawer,
adroitly abstracted the
coin, and replaced it by a withered leaf which he plucked from a
fagot.>>
------------------------------------------------------
> >(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>
> >> Symposium1 wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
> >
> >> Our own?
> <David....@Dartmouth.edu> writes:
>
> > Well, Art, if Ann identifies him as one of "our own,"
> > doesn't that mean that Ann, too, is a Templar conspirator?
Symposium1 wrote:
> You crazy kids. I don't know whether to ground you or tousle your hair.
Tousle [Middle English touselen, frequentative of -tousen: 15th century]
To put into disorder; to tumble; to touse.
<<Tussle: A struggle, a skirmish. A corruption of tousle (German,
zausen, to pull); hence a dog is named Towser (pull ’em down). In the
Winter’s Tale (iv. 4.), Autol’ycus says to the Shepherd, “I toze from
thee thy business” (pump or draw out of thee). In Measure for Measure,
Escalus says to the Duke, “We’ll touze thee joint by joint”.>> Brewer
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable.
------------------------------------------------------
_The Man Who Was Thursday_ by G.K. Chesterton
Chapter V. The Feast of Fear
<<Only the individual examples will express this half-concealed
eccentricity. Syme’s original cicerone bore the title of Monday; he was
the Secretary of the Council, and his twisted smile was regarded with
more terror than anything, except the President’s horrible, happy
laughter. But now that Syme had more space and light to observe him,
there were other touches. His fine face was so emaciated, that Syme
thought it must be wasted with some disease; yet somehow the very
distress of his dark eyes denied this. It was no physical ill that
troubled him. His eyes were alive with intellectual torture, as if pure
thought was pain. He was typical of each of the tribe; each man was
subtly and differently wrong. Next to him sat Tuesday, the tousle-headed
Gogol, a man more obviously mad. Next was Wednesday, a certain Marquis
de St. Eustache, a sufficiently characteristic figure.>>
------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
Notre Dame de Paris by Victor Marie Hugo
VII. The Spectre-Monk
<<The old hag treated him like a lord and shut up the čcu in a drawer.
It was the coin Phśbus had received form the man in the cloak. No sooner
was her back turned, than the little tousle-headed ragamuffin playing in
the cinders stole to the drawer, adroitly abstracted the coin, and
replaced it by a withered leaf which he plucked from a fagot.>>
------------------------------------------------------
> >(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
>
> >> Symposium1 wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The article quotes our own Mr. Kathman.
> >
> >> Our own?
> <David....@Dartmouth.edu> writes:
>
> > Well, Art, if Ann identifies him as one of "our own,"
> > doesn't that mean that Ann, too, is a Templar conspirator?
Symposium1 wrote:
> You crazy kids. I don't know whether to ground you or tousle your hair.
Tousle [Middle English touselen, frequentative of -tousen: 15th century]
bookburn
"Tom Reedy" <txr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:v9oL6.141$zK6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I couldn't connect at the above, but do see something at:
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=Shakespeare+painting&n
=20&c=news_photos
Merrill McCarty
"bookburn" <book...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tfsadg3...@corp.supernews.com...
He looks a lot like the Droeshout engraving. The painting is much better
art, however. The subject looks much more human and relaxed.
The Toronto Globe and Mail is obviously very excited about this. All that
space on the front page and all those sidebars to the main story is a big
commitment for that newspaper. They make a convincing case for the painting.
Merrill McCarty
Leogolf
about getting names wrong, or half wrong, or misspelled, or mispronounced, and
then sublty altered as it is remembered through 12 generations, I'd say the
Sanders clan did pretty well. Dr. Kathman is once again going to play devils
advocate and be a doubter and take away all the fun of this tremendously
bizzarre discovery. The ultimate irony will be that Dave will eventually find
the evidence that makes this discovery the century.
Or Art will.
RM
Leogolf
RM
Leogolf
I need a drink.
RM
Bob Grumman
a painting like this after 400 years is ridiculous. It's not of
Shakespeare.
--Bob G.
--
Posted from nut-n-but.net [205.161.239.5]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Peter Farey
>
> Looks just like Marlowe!
To see just the page showing the portrait, try:
http://us.news2.yimg.com/p/ap/20010511/capt.canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.jpg
If this appears split over more than one line, you may have to
copy it into the address line of your browser, making sure that
it is in a single line with no spaces and no 'greater than'
symbols.
Although the eyes are somewhat smaller in this portrait, and the
hair has receded a little further, I do see quite a similarity
between this and the so-called "Grafton portrait", which has
been claimed to be both of Shakespeare (Thomas Kay, 1907) and
Marlowe (Wraight & Stern, 1964).
http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/NTO/16thc/cmarl/imgrafton.htm
Peter F.
pet...@rey.prestel.co.uk
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm
Peter Farey
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20010511/capt.canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.jpg
Neuendorffer
> >
> > Looks just like Marlowe!
Peter Farey wrote:
> To see just the page showing the portrait, try:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
> If this appears split over more than one line, you may have to
> copy it into the address line of your browser, making sure that
> it is in a single line with no spaces and no 'greater than'
> symbols.
>
> Although the eyes are somewhat smaller in this portrait, and the
> hair has receded a little further, I do see quite a similarity
> between this and the so-called "Grafton portrait", which has
> been claimed to be both of Shakespeare (Thomas Kay, 1907) and
> Marlowe (Wraight & Stern, 1964).
> http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/NTO/16thc/cmarl/imgrafton.htm
Quite similar. . . at least as good as Oxford:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4260/manyfaces.html
Though not as good as Southampton:
http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
Art Neuendorffer
P.S. Perhaps Droeshout was doing anamorphosis:
Merrill McCarty
"Bob Grumman" <BobGr...@nut-n-but.net> wrote in message
news:3AFE5D...@nut-n-but.net...
> Forgive my terrible skepticism, but the sudden appearance of
> a painting like this after 400 years is ridiculous. It's not of
> Shakespeare.
>
> --Bob G.
You are forgiven. But cut the time down to 300 years, since the family was
trying to have it authenticated as far back as 1909. And apparently it was
referred to in family documents, such as wills, even further back. The
testing indicates the portrait is from the right period. It boils down to
whether this is Shakespeare or somebody else.
Merrill
Neuendorffer
>
> The Boston Globe prints the portrait (actually a facs. of the Globe and
> Mail front page) in today's (Sunday's) paper. (The opinion section, I
> think.)
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/133/nation/Is_it_or_not_That_is_the_question+.shtml
This story ran on page A03 of the Boston Globe on 5/13/2001.
Copyright 2001 Globe Newspaper Company.
Is it, or not? That is the question
Old portrait stirs Shakespeare fans
By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff, 5/13/2001
NEW LONDON, Prince Edward Island - The portrait, dated 1603, shows a man
on the cusp of middle age, blue-green eyes sharp with intelligence, lips
bent in faint smile, bushy auburn hair just starting to recede from a
forehead that somehow seems so familiar.
What may be the only existing portrait of William Shakespeare painted
during the playwright's life has surfaced in ONTARIO, the property of a
family that emigrated from England to Canada in the early 20th century
carrying a pigment-on-wood miniature they say has been passed from
father to son for 12 generations.
As art, the 17-by-13-inch portrait is crude, unremarkable, and not
terribly valuable as antique paintings go. But if the winsome image can
be proven to be the true face of the greatest writer of the English
language, it will be priceless, an heirloom for all humanity.
''If it's authentic, it's extraordinary to have found Shakespeare in the
New World,'' said Richard Monette, artistic director of the Stratford
Festival in Stratford, ONTARIO. ''This is a very romantic picture, the
way we want Shakespeare to look, like a bohemian.''
Investigation of the painting, first reported Friday by Toronto's Globe
and Mail newspaper, has fired both excitement and debate across the
worlds of art, history, drama, and Shakespearean scholarship.
Scientific scrutiny suggests that the portrait was almost certainly
painted in the early 1600s, but no amount of X-ray spectrometry,
carbon-dating, or pigment analysis can verify the astonishing
inscription on the back of the portrait: ''Shakspere, born April 23
1564, Died April 23 1616, Aged 52. This Likeness taken 1603, Age at that
time 39 ys.''
''Scientific work makes it clear that the materials are consistent with
the date 1603,'' said Ian Wainwright, who oversaw eight years of
chemical, radiocarbon, and microscopic studies of the painting by the
Canadian
Conservation Institute, a government research agency.
Simply proving that a painting is not a forgery does not necessarily
mean that the subject is accurately rendered or is not someone else
entirely.
''The evidence seems to point to its authenticity,'' said David
Franklin, chief curator at the National Gallery of Canada. ''But how can
we know that it is a true likeness?''
The owner of the portrait has been identified only as a retired engineer
living in ONTARIO. According to the Globe and Mail, he has insisted on
anonymity because he fears for the security of the painting, which was
stowed for years beneath his grandmother's bed and later hung on his own
dining room wall.
Family lore holds that the painting is the work of an ancestor, John
Sanders, believed to have been a set painter and bit actor in
Shakespeare's theatrical troupe. The owner has made proving the
portrait's provenance the work of his retirement, and he has spent
nearly all of his savings paying for exhaustive tests usually
undertaken only by museums and other institutions.
After 400 years, ''it's time to reveal Shakespeare to the world,''
he told the Globe and Mail.
The esoteric science of dendrochronology, or the dating of wooden
objects, was used by the University of Hamburg in Germany to show that
the oak panel on which the portrait is painted came from a tree
harvested around 1597.
The reaction of Shakespeare scholars ranges from cautious to skeptical.
Said Stanley Wells, chairman of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust in
Stratford-on-Avon, Britain: ''I'm suspicious. ... It doesn't look like
the accepted images of Shakespeare.''
But other specialists take a more positive view. ''The fact that the
hair is the right color is the best argument in its favor,'' Stanford
University's Stephen Orgel told the Globe and Mail. ''We know
Shakespeare had light brown or auburn hair.''
Over the centuries, only two of the 450 purported likenesses of
Shakespeare have consistently withstood scientific and historical
analysis. And both were completed after his death, showing the familiar
bald pate and pointy beard.
The most famous image - the print from the First Folio of Shakespeare's
plays - is thought to be based on a lost sketch made of the playwright
as an aged man. The other authenticated likeness is the bust on
Shakespeare's tomb at the Church of the Holy Trinity in Stratford, cast
from his death mask.
If authenticated, the portrait may remain in Canada for perpetuity:
Under federal law, any art object that has been in the country for 50
years is regarded as part of the national patrimony.>>
----------------------------------------------------------
DAVE THOMAS b. May 20, 1949 in St.Catharines, ONTARIO.
RICK MORANIS b. April 18, 1953 in Toronto, ONTARIO
----------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
J or S Finnegan wrote:
>
> http://www.globeandmail.ca/
>
> Is there a site where we can see the portrait? I tried searching the
> Globe and Mail but all I could find was the article saying that
> curiosity about the portrait had been piqued.
AllenGaryK
>A more likely possibility is that it's
>a painting of someone else that somebody decided to label "Shakespeare",
>but if so, it looks like they did so in the 17th century, not
>long after Shakespeare's death.
The thing that makes me dubious about the authenticity of the label is its
phraseology. The relevant paragraph from the "Is this the face of genius?"
article:
He either labelled the back of the portrait then, leaving a space for the
date of death, or went back, 13 years later, when Shakespeare died, and
affixed the label then. (The full label reads: Shakspere, Born April 23
1564, Died April 23 1616, Aged 52, This Likeness taken 1603, Age at
that time 39 ys)
Most birth dates I have seen from that period are at least partly in Latin (at
the very least "ae."). Did anyone else at that time get a full MM/DD/YY entry
for both birth and death dates on a portrait? Also the phrasing of "This
Likeness taken" strikes me as of a later period, as does "Age at that time."
Since the paper of the label could have been manufactured as late as 1640, and
the inscription could have come even later, color me dubious (a sort of tinny
grey) until further examination does more to confirm its authenticity.
Gary
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3AFE7EE4...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
[...]
> Peter Farey wrote:
>
> > To see just the page showing the portrait, try:
> >
> >
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cp
> > t111.html
>
> > If this appears split over more than one line, you may have to
> > copy it into the address line of your browser, making sure that
> > it is in a single line with no spaces and no 'greater than'
> > symbols.
> >
> > Although the eyes are somewhat smaller in this portrait, and the
> > hair has receded a little further, I do see quite a similarity
> > between this and the so-called "Grafton portrait", which has
> > been claimed to be both of Shakespeare (Thomas Kay, 1907) and
> > Marlowe (Wraight & Stern, 1964).
>
> > http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/NTO/16thc/cmarl/imgrafton.htm
> Quite similar. . . at least as good as Oxford:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4260/manyfaces.html
>
> Though not as good as Southampton:
>
> http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
You have a nearly perfect record of reposing complete confidence in
the web sites you trawl as you troll, Art, even when the content (I use
the word exceedingly loosely) is manifestly propaganda from white
supremacist organizations or the ravings of lunatics about dangerous
conspiracies involving space aliens. Matters being so, I presume that
you place full reliance in the web site whose URL you provide above.
Yet that site clearly states that the portrait in question is of a
*cat*; the presence of the human in the painting is probably incidental
and irrelevant:
"This is a portrait of a cat Trixie and his human friend Henry,
the third Earl of Southampton. The Earl was imprisoned for some
stupid human business into the Tower of London."
In any case, the human cannot be the fellow of the Sonnets' dedication
-- the latter's surname was apparently spelled "Wr-htoi-esley," and his
first name was probably Hiram (or perhaps Pheon or Nile).
David Webb
KQKnave
allen...@cs.com (AllenGaryK) writes:
>(The full label reads: Shakspere, Born April 23
>1564, Died April 23 1616, Aged 52, This Likeness taken 1603, Age at
>that time 39 ys)
I agree. I don't know about the portrait (doesn't look much
like the others to my eyes) but the inscription was definitely
written later, much later.
Jim
Tom Reedy
news:20010513142735...@nso-fb.aol.com...
I don't see how anyone can know this.
That is the problem with Shakespeare: every new discovery is treated as a
forgery because he is a god, not a person.
That is one of the reasons why the Funeral Elegy is not accepted by a lot of
people, even though Shakespeare wrote worse poetry.
That is also why the Archaionomia signature is not accepted: it was
discovered too late. If it had been discovered in the mid- or late-18th
century, it would be accepted today as genuine.
I feel sure there is a lot more documentation on Shakespeare that will come
to light in the future, and every bit of it will be dismissed as forgeries
by some long after it is authenticated.
Having said that, let me add that more study than has been done will be
necessary before this portrait is accepted.
Although the image that is now available is of too-poor quality to make fine
judgments, it struck me that the wispy beard (if that is what it is) and the
ruddy complexion comply with the shading on the Droeshout engraving a bit
too closely.
Perhaps this was the picture Droeshout used for his engraving ("That's the
spitting image of Will. Just age him a bit and raise his hairline."), or
maybe this was painted from the engraving, or maybe this is what it claims
to be.
TR
RLamb
Merrill McCarty wrote in message
<0oqL6.2$qY5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
>
>The Toronto Globe and Mail is obviously very excited about this. All that
>space on the front page and all those sidebars to the main story is a big
>commitment for that newspaper. They make a convincing case for the
painting.
>
1603, not touched up in any way (that's if their reports on the tests
undertaken on it are accurate). But that doesn't prove it's Shakespeare.
The 'story handed down through generations' doesn't really convince. No
offence to the current owner, but that's a long, long time for a tale to be
handed down accurately. The label could be a later addition. Bardolatry's
been going strong for centuries. It isn't only in this era that a portrait
of Shakespeare would sell for a lot more than Portrait of Unknown Young Man.
Has Dave Kathman seen an image of the writing on the label at the back? If
it can be seen under infrared, that should be possible, surely? That would
be interesting. The exactness of those two dates is a bit pat, somehow.
If the images of the painting I've seen are correct, it obviously isn't
complete. I think the accompanying articles said something about damage at
the top and bottom? They speculate that a signature may have gone missing
at the bottom, but I'm not art historian enough to know whether portraits
from this period were routinely (or even occasionally) signed this way.
Anyway it's gone, so it doesn't matter. But if the part missing at the top
has gone just above the date, that would be worrying. It might have held
one of those 'aetatis suae' inscriptions.
I like the picture. But if it's Shakespeare he wore very well - 39, and not
looking a day over 28.
Rita
Mark Steese
but.net (Bob Grumman) did write in news:3AFE5D...@nut-n-but.net, on the
date of 13 May 2001:
> Forgive my terrible skepticism, but the sudden appearance of
> a painting like this after 400 years is ridiculous. It's not of
> Shakespeare.
While I am skeptical as well, the 'sudden appearance' part seems relatively
easy to swallow - it's astonishing how many paintings, documents,
manuscripts, etc., have been discovered under comparable circumstances. It
doesn't seem any more implausible to me than the rediscovery of the
Archimedes Palimpsest (see http://www.thewalters.org/archimedes/frame.html)
-Mark Steese
--
Bibrau is the name of the girl who sits in the blue
-Runic inscription from Greenland, c. 11th C. A.D.
Ingigerth is the most beautiful of women
-Runic inscription from Maes Howe, c. 1153-54 A.D.
Mark Steese
(Leogolf) did write in news:20010513032209...@ng-cf1.aol.com,
> That's Edward De Vere!
> I need a drink.
>
> RM
If you think that fellow looks like Edward De Vere, I'd say you've had one
too many already. (And weren't you just claiming it looked like
Christopher Marlowe?)
At any rate, it's clearly a portrait of Thomas Nashe.
Yours,
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3AFEB780...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
[...]
> http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/133/nation/Is_it_or_not_That_is_the_question
> +.shtml
[...]
> Over the centuries, only two of the 450 purported likenesses of
> Shakespeare have consistently withstood scientific and historical
> analysis. And both were completed after his death, showing the familiar
> bald pate and pointy beard.
>
> The most famous image - the print from the First Folio of Shakespeare's
> plays - is thought to be based on a lost sketch made of the playwright
> as an aged man. The other authenticated likeness is the bust on
> Shakespeare's tomb at the Church of the Holy Trinity in Stratford, cast
> from his death mask.
>
> If authenticated, the portrait may remain in Canada for perpetuity:
> Under federal law, any art object that has been in the country for 50
> years is regarded as part of the national patrimony.>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> DAVE THOMAS b. May 20, 1949 in St.Catharines, ONTARIO.
> RICK MORANIS b. April 18, 1953 in Toronto, ONTARIO
> ----------------------------------------------------------
Why do you capitalize the names above, Art? I fear that you haven't
looked into this matter carefully enough. How do you know that the
names aren't fakes? For instance, note that "Dave Thomas/Rick Moranis"
admits the perfect anagram
A Masonic mask hid Ver? Rot!
David Webb
KQKnave
<txr...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >(The full label reads: Shakspere, Born April 23
>> >1564, Died April 23 1616, Aged 52, This Likeness taken 1603, Age at
>> >that time 39 ys)
>>
>> I agree. I don't know about the portrait (doesn't look much
>> like the others to my eyes) but the inscription was definitely
>> written later, much later.
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
>I don't see how anyone can know this.
Well, you need to find an example of the phrase "this likeness
taken" from the period in question. I think that you are going
to find that no one wrote or spoke that way at that time. Same
for the way the dates are expressed.
>
>That is the problem with Shakespeare: every new discovery is treated as a
>forgery because he is a god, not a person.
>
>That is one of the reasons why the Funeral Elegy is not accepted by a lot of
>people, even though Shakespeare wrote worse poetry.
There isn't any comparison. There are no anachronistic
modern idioms in the funeral elegy, as there is here, but
there ARE lots of Shakespearianisms.
In any case, the inscription could be modern, and the
portrait could still be of Shakespeare.
Jim
Bob Grumman
a painting like this after 400 years is ridiculous. It's not of
Shakespeare."--Bob G.
"You are forgiven. But cut the time down to 300 years, since the family
was trying to have it authenticated as far back as 1909. And apparently
it was referred to in family documents, such as wills, even further
back. The testing indicates the portrait is from the right period. It
Hmmm. Well, I remain skeptical, but less so. I find it very odd
that such a portrait wouldn't have been publicized by 1760 or so.
But I'll try not to make up my mind till I get all the facts.
Bob Grumman
regarding the Shakespeare painting. But I don't see much
of a parallel between the painting and the Archimedes manuscript
(thanks for sending me to the fascinating story about that,
by the way). My impression was that the portrait was known
by the family to be of Shakespeare and not hidden away. It
seems much different from other things of this nature, like
the book with Shakespeare's name inscribed inside, which could
have gone unnoticed for centuries. Or the Marlowe portrait, if
authentic, which didn't have his name on it.
For now, though, I just want to find out more.
Elizabeth Weir
Elizabeth Weir
"Leogolf" <leo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010513032209...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Elizabeth Weir
in their attics.
I wouldn't trust any label that couldn't be absolutely fixed to a date
before 1623.
"AllenGaryK" <allen...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010513123622...@ng-fu1.news.cs.com...
Neuendorffer
> > http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/133/nation/Is_it_or_not_That_is_the_question
> > +.shtml
> > Over the centuries, only two of the 450 purported likenesses of
> > Shakespeare have consistently withstood scientific and historical
> > analysis. And both were completed after his death, showing the familiar
> > bald pate and pointy beard.
> >
> > The most famous image - the print from the First Folio of Shakespeare's
> > plays - is thought to be based on a lost sketch made of the playwright
> > as an aged man. The other authenticated likeness is the bust on
> > Shakespeare's tomb at the Church of the Holy Trinity in Stratford, cast
> > from his death mask.
> >
> > If authenticated, the portrait may remain in Canada for perpetuity:
> > Under federal law, any art object that has been in the country for 50
> > years is regarded as part of the national patrimony.>>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > DAVE THOMAS b. May 20, 1949 in St.Catharines, ONTARIO.
> > RICK MORANIS b. April 18, 1953 in Toronto, ONTARIO
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
"David L. Webb" wrote:
>
> Why do you capitalize the names above, Art? I fear that you haven't
> looked into this matter carefully enough. How do you know that the
> names aren't fakes? For instance, note that "Dave Thomas/Rick Moranis"
> admits the perfect anagram
>
> A Masonic mask hid Ver? Rot!
---------------------------------------------------------
3d earl of Southampton, Henry Wriothesley, [ROT'slE]
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0846028.html
<<Southampton, Henry Wriothesley, 3d earl of , 1573–1624, English
nobleman and patron of letters. He succeeded to his title in 1581, was
educated at Cambridge, and gained favor at the court of Queen Elizabeth
I. A generous patron of such writers as Barnabe Barnes, Thomas Nash, and
John Florio, he is best known as the patron of William Shakespeare, who
dedicated Venus and Adonis (1593) and The Rape of Lucrece (1594) to him.
Some scholars have maintained that Southampton is the patron and friend
described in Shakespeare's sonnets. A friend of Robert Devereux, 2d earl
of Essex, Southampton accompanied him on military and naval expeditions
in 1596 and 1597. His secret marriage (1598) to Elizabeth Vernon, one of
Elizabeth's ladies in waiting, angered the queen greatly, and she never
forgave him. Southampton accompanied Essex to Ireland in 1599 as general
of the horse, but Elizabeth revoked his appointment. He was closely
involved in Essex's rebellion (1601) and was sentenced to death, but
this sentence was changed to life imprisonment. Upon the accession
(1603) of James I, Southampton was released and restored to favor. He
became interested in colonial explorations and was a member of the
Virginia Company and of the British East India Company. Although his
impetuosity involved him in a number of court brawls, Southampton became
(1619) a privy councilor. He lost favor, however, because of his
opposition to the 1st duke of Buckingham. In 1624 he volunteered, with
his son James, to lead a troop of English volunteers to fight for the
Netherlands against Spain. Shortly after arriving in the Netherlands,
both Southampton and his son died of fever.>>
Venus & Adonis
'The tender spring upon thy tempting lip
Shows thee unripe; yet mayst thou well be tasted:
Make use of time, let not advantage slip;
Beauty within itself should not be wasted:
Fair flowers that are not gather'd in their prime
Rot and consume themselves in little time.
---------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
> >
> > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010511/wl/canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.html
> >
> > > Although the eyes are somewhat smaller in this portrait, and the
> > > hair has receded a little further, I do see quite a similarity
> > > between this and the so-called "Grafton portrait", which has
> > > been claimed to be both of Shakespeare (Thomas Kay, 1907) and
> > > Marlowe (Wraight & Stern, 1964).
> >
> > > http://www.wwnorton.com/nael/NTO/16thc/cmarl/imgrafton.htm
> (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > Quite similar. . . at least as good as Oxford:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4260/manyfaces.html
> >
> > Though not as good as Southampton:
> >
> > http://www.gorki.net/Art/fa12.html
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> I presume that
> you place full reliance in the web site whose URL you provide above.
> Yet that site clearly states that the portrait in question is of a
> *cat*; the presence of the human in the painting is probably
> incidental and irrelevant:
>
> "This is a portrait of a cat Trixie and his human friend Henry,
> the third Earl of Southampton. The Earl was imprisoned for some
> stupid human business into the Tower of London."
>
> In any case, the human cannot be the fellow of the Sonnets' dedication
> -- the latter's surname was apparently spelled "Wr-htoi-esley," and his
> first name was probably Hiram (or perhaps Pheon or Nile).
Here's a better "Wr-htoi-esley" picture:
http://www.selonica.com/shakespeare/venus.htm
--------------------------------------------------------
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
From: Cathy Howell <cho...@TOGETHER.NET>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 22:12:06 -0700
<<There's a story about a supposed ancestress of the Counts of Anjou,
sometimes also called Melusine. Various versions have her the wife of
Geoffrey I "Grisegonelle"/"Grey Tunic"/"Greygown" (Count of Anjou,
962-987) or of his son, Fulk III "Nerra"/"The Contrary" (Count of Anjou,
987-1040). This countess, perhaps Melusine, was supposed to be a
daughter of Satan. The Count of Anjou married his demon countess for her
beauty, and all seemed normal except that she never stayed until the end
of mass, slipping out before the elevation of the Host. The Count
became curious, and arranged for four of his men to stand so close to
her as to stand on the hem of her gown, thus preventing her from leaving
at the critical moment. The demon countess, foiled in her attempt to
avoid the sight of the body of Christ, shrieked in fear or pain,
wrenched herself free of her cloak, and flew out of the window (taking
two of her children with her), never to be seen again. From the two of
her children who remained behind were descended the later Counts of
Anjou. Hence the saying "From the devil they came and to the devil they
will return.">>
---------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
http://www.dragoncourt.org/pubasset/vere_01.asp
--------------------------------------------------------
<<The House of Vere are descended in various lines from the dynasty of
Meroveus and consequently share this Germanic Royal Blood Tradition.
Prince Milo de Vere - married to Charlemagne's sister - and as Head of
the Imperial House and Chief of the Imperial Army, was himself an
Imperial Prince.>>
('The Royal Genealogies' The Rev. Dr. James Anderson, D.D., M.A :
Milo I de Vere was Count of Anjou, (hence eldest son of Melusine.).
--------------------------------------------
THE MADNESS OF KINGS
<<A count of Anjou came back with a new wife, a strange girl of
extraordinary beauty but she kept very much to
herself. Unusually in so religious an age she was reluctant to attend
the Mass. When she did go she always hurried from the church before the
consecration of the host. Her husband, who was puzzled by her behaviour,
told four knights to keep watch and to try to delay her departure from
the church. When she got up to go, one of them trod on the hem of her
train. As the priest raised the host to consecrate it she screamed,
wrenched herself free, and still shrieking, flew out of the window,
taking two of her children with her. In reality the countess was the
wicked fairy, Melusine, the daughter of Satan, who cannot abide the
consecration of the body of Christ in the Mass. It was from the children
that she left behind that the counts of Anjou and the Angevin kings of
England were said to be descended.>>
(Of the Plantagenet Branch):
<<So devilish an ancestry accounted for the demonic energy and
passionate ill-temper by which these princes seemed often afflicted. 'We
who came from the devil', John's brother, Richard I, was reported as
saying caustically, 'must needs go back to the devil. Do not deprive us
of our heritage: we cannot help acting like devils.' 'De diabolo venit
et ad diabolum ibid', commented St Bernard of Clairvaux, 'From the devil
he came, and to the devil he will go.'>>
Professor Vivian Greene.
<<Cependant, apprenant plus tard que Geoffrey a brule l'abbaye de
Maillezais et tue son frere, le Comte maudit son epouse. Il l'acuse
publiquement d'etre "tres fausse serpent". Le secret est devoile.
Melusine doit regagner L'Autre Monde et s'envole transformee en
DRAGON.>>
Christine Bonnet, Lusignan.
--------------------------------------------------
Vere Princedom
<<Although Merovingian culture was both temperate surprisingly modern,
the monarchs who presided over it were another matter. They (The
Sorcerer Kings) were not typical even of rulers of their own age, for
the atmosphere of mystery legend, magic and the supernatural, surrounded
them, even during their lifetimes. If the customs and economy of the
Merovingian world did not differ markedly from others of the period, the
aura about the throne and royal bloodline was quite unique.
Sons of the Merovingian blood were not 'created' kings. On the contrary
they were automatically regarded as such on the advent of their twelfth
birthday. There was no public ceremony of anointment, no coronation of
any sort. Power was simply assumed, as by sacred right.
But while the king was supreme authority in the realm, he was not
obliged - or even expected - to sully his hands with the mundane
business of governing. He was essentially a ritualised figure, a
priest-king, and his role was not necessarily to do anything, simply to
be. The king ruled in short, but did not govern.>>
-------------------------------------------------------
<<Even after their conversion to Christianity the Merovingian rulers,
like the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, were polygamous. On occasion
they enjoyed harems of oriental proportions. Even when the aristocracy,
under pressure from the Church, became rigorously monogamous, the
monarchy remained exempt. And the Church, curiously enough, seems to
have accepted this prerogative without any inordinate protest. According
to one modern commentator: Why was it [polygamy] tacitly approved by the
Franks themselves?
We may here be in the presence of ancient usage of polygamy in a royal
family - a family of such rank that its blood could not be ennobled by
any match, however advantageous, nor degraded by the blood of slaves ...
It was a matter of indifference whether a queen were taken from a royal
dynasty or from among courtesans...
The fortune of the dynasty rested in its blood and was shared by all who
were of that blood.
And again, 'it is Just possible that, in the Merovingians, we may have a
dynasty of Germanic Heerkonige* derived from an ancient kingly family of
the migration period'.>>
Extracted and expanded upon by Henry Lincoln,
from 'The Long Haired Kings' by
J. M. Wallace-Hadrill; Fellow of Merton College Oxford.
--------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David Kathman
>
> There is an equally likely possibility that it is authentic. And speaking
> about getting names wrong, or half wrong, or misspelled, or mispronounced, and
> then sublty altered as it is remembered through 12 generations, I'd say the
> Sanders clan did pretty well. Dr. Kathman is once again going to play devils
> advocate and be a doubter and take away all the fun of this tremendously
> bizzarre discovery. The ultimate irony will be that Dave will eventually find
> the evidence that makes this discovery the century.
>
> Or Art will.
>
> RM
I'm not sure why you consider healthy skepticism to be "tak[ing] away
all the fun". I merely pointed out that the owner's claim that his
alleged ancestor John Sanders was an actor cannot be proven. A lot of
work remains to be done on this painting, and I'm sure it will be
discussed a lot, which is why we need to separate facts from conjectures
right off the bat.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
David Kathman
>
> Merrill McCarty wrote in message
> <0oqL6.2$qY5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >
> >
> >The Toronto Globe and Mail is obviously very excited about this. All that
> >space on the front page and all those sidebars to the main story is a big
> >commitment for that newspaper. They make a convincing case for the
> painting.
> >
> I think they make a convincing case for this being an authentic painting of
> 1603, not touched up in any way (that's if their reports on the tests
> undertaken on it are accurate). But that doesn't prove it's Shakespeare.
> The 'story handed down through generations' doesn't really convince. No
> offence to the current owner, but that's a long, long time for a tale to be
> handed down accurately. The label could be a later addition. Bardolatry's
> been going strong for centuries. It isn't only in this era that a portrait
> of Shakespeare would sell for a lot more than Portrait of Unknown Young Man.
>
> Has Dave Kathman seen an image of the writing on the label at the back? If
> it can be seen under infrared, that should be possible, surely? That would
> be interesting. The exactness of those two dates is a bit pat, somehow.
No, I have not seen an image of the writing. I only talked to Stephanie
Nolen, who has apparently seen it. She's the one who told me that the
writing is only visible under ultraviolet light (or was it infrared --
one of those). She also said that the owner was rather vague when she
asked whether the handwriting had been examined by a paleographer, which
led her to believe that perhaps it hadn't. I think that's an obvious
next step -- having an expert examine the tag, both the handwriting and
the phrasing. As others have noted, the wording on the tag sounds curiously
modern, despite the paper being carbon-dated to the correct time.
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
KQKnave
<dj...@popd.ix.netcom.com> writes:
>I think that's an obvious
>next step -- having an expert examine the tag, both the handwriting and
>the phrasing. As others have noted, the wording on the tag sounds curiously
>modern, despite the paper being carbon-dated to the correct time.
>
I checked the OED and the earliest example they give
for the phrase "taking a likeness" was 1762.
Jim
Geralyn Horton
Janice Miller wrote:
> The Boston Globe prints the portrait (actually a facs. of the Globe and
> Mail front page) in today's (Sunday's) paper.
Janice. are we neighbors?
--
Geralyn Horton
Newton, Mass. 02460
<http://www.stagepage.org>
Geralyn Horton
"Oral history" is in better repute, at least for the
moment, since DNA backed up the Afro-Jeffersonians.
RLamb wrote:
> The 'story handed down through generations' doesn't really convince. No
> offence to the current owner, but that's a long, long time for a tale to be
> handed down accurately.
Neuendorffer
Milo I de Vere was Count of Anjou, (hence eldest son of Melusine.).
http://www.dragoncourt.org/pubasset/vere_01.asp
<<The House of Vere are descended in various lines from the dynasty of
Meroveus and consequently share this Germanic Royal Blood Tradition.
Prince Milo de Vere - married to Charlemagne's sister - and as Head of
the Imperial House and Chief of the Imperial Army, was himself an
Imperial Prince.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.brabantwallon.org/tl/en/f/c030303.html
Meroveus 400? - 458
<<The legendary founder of the dynasty of Merovingians. As first honest
king in our regions, he was the father of Childéric and the grandfather
of Clovis. He reigned from Tournai which became the capital of his
kingdom. His father, Clodion the Hairy , was pushed back by the Roman
General Aetius and had to stop his expansion towards the South. The
Romans, conscious of their military weakness, found it judicious to
recruit these former barbarians to defend the lines. This is how the
Francs settled along the border of the empire, in the South of the
Netherlands and the North of current Belgium. A rather peaceful vicinity
resulted from it and, when Aetius beat Huns of Attila on the Catalaunic
Fields in 451, he could count on the support of Mérovée and his
troops.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0048/G0000057.html
Merovech* (K of Franks) Birth: ABT 436 Death: 456/457
<<He is named among the combatants who faught in the Roman imperial
army at Mauriac, which stopped the progress of Attila the Hun in Gaul.
"Colonial & Revolutionary Lineages in America" lists him as the son of
Chlodion. "The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" agrees. Other sources claim
that his parentage is unknown. Edward James in his book "The Franks"
mentions that the ancient historian, Gregory of Tours wrote that "some
people say" that Merovech was a descendant of Chlodion.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/metis.htm
<<Up until recently, little was known about the Merovingian kings, as
they inhabited that historical epoch derided as the Dark Ages. The
founder of the royal line, Merovech, was said to be of two fathers --
his mother, already pregnant by KING CHLODIO, was seduced while swimming
in the ocean by a QUINOTAUR, whatever that was, and Merovech was formed
somehow by the commingling of Frankish blood and that of the mysterious
aquatic creature. Like the Nazoreans of old, the Merovingian monarchs
never cut their hair and bore a distinctive birthmark -- said to be a
red cross over the shoulder blades. Their robes were fringed with
tassels which were said to carry magical curative powers. They were
known as occult adepts, and in one Merovingian tomb was found such items
as a golden bull's head, a crystal ball, and several golden miniature
bees. Strangely, many skulls of these monarchs appear to have been
ritually incised; i.e., trepanned.>>
Edmund My father compounded with my mother under the DRAGON'S TAIL;
and my nativity was under URSA MAJOR;
<<The Sicambrians, ancestors of the Franks, were known as the "PEOPLE OF
THE BEAR" for their worship of the bear-goddess Arduina. The word
"Arcadia" comes from Arkas, patron god of that area of Greece, the son
of the nymph Callisto, sister of the huntress Artemis. Callisto's
constellation is also known to many as URSA MAJOR, the Great Bear. The
name "Arthur" comes from the Celtic arth, related to "Ursus" -- namely,
"bear." In legend, the Merovingians were said to be descended from the
Trojans, and Homer reports that Troy was founded by a colony of
Arcadians. The "Prieure documents" claim that the Arcadians were
descended from Benjamites driven out of Palestine by their fellow
Israelites for idolatry. "Arcadia" was also known as the source of the
River Alphaeus, the "underground stream" which figures so prominently in
Coleridge's poetry and in esoteric literature. The Merovingians were
"sacred kings" who reigned but did not rule, leaving the secular
governing function to chancellors known as the Mayors of the Palace.
It was one of these Mayors, Pepin the Fat, who founded the dynasty
that came to supplant them -- the Carolingians.>>
<<One of the great Merovingian kings, Clovis, struck a deal with the
newly nascent Roman church. He would subdue their enemies, the Arian
Visigoths and the pagan Lombards, in return for baptism into the faith
and recognition of his right to rule a new Roman empire as "Novus
Constantinus." Yet one of his descendants, Dagobert II, was murdered by
A LANCE PIERCED THROUGH HIS EYE (or POISON POURED IN THE EAR -- accounts
vary) at the orders of Pepin. The church endorsed the assassination,
flatly betrayed its pact with Clovis, and in turn recognized the family
of usurpers as legitimate, culminating with the crowning of Charlemagne
as Holy Roman Emperor. It was thought that the Merovingian lineage was
extinguished; in any case it was excised from the history books. But
there is some evidence that Dagobert's son, Siegebert IV, survived and
that a Merovingian principality continued to be ruled in Septimania by
Guillem de Gellone, a descendant -- and ancestor -- of Godfroi de
Bouillon. If the Prieure documents are to be believed, the Merovingian
lineage persists to this day, largely due to efforts to preserve it
through intermarriage. The significance of such alliances is the key.
Dagobert married the daughter of the Visigothic Count of Razes, giving
his descendants hereditary title to the lands surrounding
Rennes-le-Château.>>
<<The Prieure du Notre Dame du Sion, or Priory of Zion, is said to be
the cabal behind many of the events that occurred at Rennes-le-Château.
According to the Prieure's own documents, its history is long and
convoluted. Its earliest roots are in some sort of Hermetic or Gnostic
society led by a man named Ormus. This individual is said to have
reconciled paganism and Christianity. The story of Sion only comes into
focus in the Middle Ages. In 1070, a group of monks from Calabria,
Italy, led by one Prince Ursus, founded the Abbey of Orval in France
near Stenay, in the ARDENNES. These monks are said to have formed the
basis for the Order de Sion, into which they were "folded" in 1099 by
Godfroi de Bouillion. For about one hundred years, the Order of the
Temple (Knights Templar) and Sion were apparently unified under one
leadership, though they are said to have separated at the "CUTTING OF
THE ELM" at Gisors in 1188. (The Templar order was then destroyed by
King Phillipe Le Bel of France, in 1307.) Sion appears to have been at
the nexus of two French antimonarchical movements, the Compagnie du
St.-Sacrament of the 17th century (acting on behalf on the
Guise-Lorraine families) and the Fronde of the 18th, as well as behind
an attempt to make the Hapsburgs emperors of all Europe in the 19th --
the Hieron du Val d'Or. It appears that there are vast connections
between Sion and numerous sociocultural strata in European thought --
Roscicrucianism, Freemasonry, Arthurian and Grail legends,
"Arcadianism," Catharism, chivalry, etc.>>
<<Yet this mysterious secret society brought itself to light in 1956 and
is listed with the French directory of organizations under the subtitle
"Chivalry of Catholic Rules and Institutions of the Independent and
Traditionalist Union," which in French abbreviates to CIRCUIT -- the
name of the magazine distributed internally among members. Depending on
what statutes one considers, Sion either has 9,841 members in nine
grades, or 1,093 members in seven, with the supreme member, the
"Nautonnier" or Grand Master of the Order being, till 1963, Jean
Cocteau. While it is believed the head has been Pierre Plantard de
St.-Clair up until recent times, he claims to have left that post in
1984, so it is not clear who runs the organization at this time. But
whoever he is, he has had illustrious predecessors: Jacques DeMolay,
Leonardo de Vinci, Isaac Newton, and Claude Debussy, among others!
Plantard, in any case, seems to have enjoyed the ear of many influential
persons in contemporary French politics -- deGaulle, Marcel Lefebvre,
Francois Ducaud-Bourget, Andre Malraux, and Alain Poher, and others,
many of whom appear to know him from his efforts with the Resistance
during the Vichy occupation. Despite its registry, however, the
organization remains untraceable, its given address and number leading
to dead ends -- which might lead one to wonder why the government never
bothered to verify the information.>>
<<One of the most interesting people to write about the Prieure may be
Michael Lamy. He claims that Jules Verne was a member of both the
Prieure and the Illuminati. Further, he maintains that the Prieure's
politics must be understood as "Orleanist," which he describes as
"aristocratic, anarchistic, and Nietzchean." Perhaps it all becomes most
clear when Lamy reveals to the reader that the true secret of the
village of Rennes-le-Château is that the extinct volcano Mount Bugarach
leads down into the hollow earth to a realm of supermen. Ean Begg feels
it is connected with many of the Black Virgin sites all over Europe.
Certainly, if the organization's full name is the Prieure de Notre Dame
du Sion, and if it is site of Orval is connected to the worship of the
bear-goddess Arduina, venerated by the Sicambrian Franks of the area and
their Merovingian kings, then this may be the case. There are hints, of
course, that "Notre Dame" is not the mother of Jesus, but Mary of
Bethany AKA "Magdalene" a princess of the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN, which is
itself notorious for an outbreak of goddess-idolatry in the period of
the Judges. That Mary may also be the one also known to the Gypsies of
the south of France as one of the three "Maries-de-la-Mer," whom they
call "Sarah the Egyptian," the sun-burnt one.>>
--------------------------------------------------
Dave Webb wrote:
<<According to various credulous conspiracy crackpots, the Ur-conspiracy
is the Priory of Sion at least it's known to exist in some form,
although it's probably a hoax, or at best the fringe lunacy of some
French Monarchist cranks who trace their bloodline back to the
Merovingian kings, whom they claim are the lineal descendants of Jesus
and Mary Magdalene -- the latter, it seems, made her way from the
mideast to the Languedoc, where she continued all sorts of arcane
hermetic traditions, traditions which culminated in the Cathar heresy
and the Albigensian Crusade. The Priory supposedly created the Knights
Templar as an instrument of its policy, but the two groups were divided
by a schism ("the cutting of the elm") in around 1180; the Strict
Observance Freemasonry into which von Hund reported being initiated is
supposed to have been a creation of the Priory, and your beloved Rosslyn
Chapel is always mentioned, along with the other sacred sites, Rennes le
Chateau and Montsegur, by Priory enthusiasts. According to Lomas-Knight
or Baigent-Leigh-Lincoln, the Priory of Sion and/or Rex Deus (which may
be the same) are also the custodians of all the "genuine" Masonic
secrets no longer known to Masons since the English Grand Lodge censored
those alarmingly Jacobite Scottish Rite rituals. The putative mission
of Rex Deus is VERy similar to that of the supposed mission of the
Priory of Sion, and the same families (Sinclairs, Gisors, etc.) are
supposedly involved. The list of Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion (or
"Nautonniers" -- Helmsmen -- as they are called, who all take the name
"John") includes Isaac Newton, Leonardo da Vinci, Botticelli, Robert
Fludd, and more recently, Jean Cocteau! Of course, the Rosicrucians
were also supposed to have been involved, and alchemy played a big role,
as did Johannite "Christianity", the cult of the Magdalane, Goddess
worship, magic, pagan fertility cults. . .>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Descent from Jesus
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/index.htm#toc
Clovis 14 d. Paris, 511,
Childeric 13 d. 481,
Meroveus Franks12 Clodinsson (Meroveus died 456),
Clodion11 Famundson
Faramund10 Frotmundson,
Frotmund9 Boazsson,
Boaz8 Titurelsson,
Titurel7 Manuelsson,
Manuel6 Cathaloysson,
Cathaloys5 Arninadabsson,
Aminadab4 Josuesson,
Josue3 Josephsson,
Joseph Rama-Theo2 Jesusson,
Jesus Christ1 Josephsson
http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
Richard42 Neville
(Richard41 Nevill,
Joan Beaufort40 ,
John Of Gaunt39,
Edward Iii38,
Edward Ii37,
Edward I (Longshanks)36,
Johann Valenin Andrea (1637-54) - "the creator of the semi-secret
Christian unions and author of the Rosicrucian manifestos, a Hermetic
allegory which also evokes resonances with the Grail Romances and the
Knights Templar. At this time, with the eclipse of the House of
Lorraine, the Priory transferred its allegiance to the more influential
Stuarts after Frederick of the Palatinate married Elizabeth Stuart,
daughter of James I of England. Frederick "created a culture, a
'Rosicrucian' state with its court centered on Heidelberg." [Francis
Yates] - Baigent & Leigh, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
Anne49 Stuart
James Ii48,
Charles I47,
James I46,
Queen Mary45,
James V44 Steward,
James Iv43 ,
James Iii42,
James Ii41,
Joan40 Beaufort,
Margaret39 Holland,
Joan38 ,
Edmund Of Woodstock37,
Edward I (Longshanks)36,
Henry Viii43 Tudor
Henry Vii42,
Margaret Of Richmond41 Beaufort,
John40,
Margaret39 Holland,
Joan38 ,
Edmund Of Woodstock37,
Edward I (Longshanks)36,
Iii35 Henry,
John34 Lackland,
Henry Ii33 Curtmantle,
32 Matilda,
Matilda (Edith) Of31 Scotland,
Kong Malcolm Iii30 Canmore,
Duncan I29 Carianson,
Bethoc Malcholmsdtr28 Scots,
Malcholm Ii Keamer Maomor27 Malbrigdeson,
Kenneth Ii Malcomson26 Scots,
Malcom I Donaldson25,
Donald Ii Constantineson24, Constabtine I
King Kennethson23,
Kenneth I King Alpinson22,
Alpin King Eochaiedson21,
Eochaied Aedson20,
Aed Eochaidson Find19,
Eochaid Domangartson18,
Domangart Donaldson17,
Donald Enochaidson Buide16,
Enochaid Adeanson Buide15,
Ygrame Taliesinsdtr14 Del Acqs,
Vivianne Queen Avallon13,
Comets De Toulouse12,
Frotmund11 Famundson,
Faramund10 Frotmundson,
Frotmund9 Boazsson,
Boaz8 Titurelsson,
Titurel7 Manuelsson,
Manuel6 Cathaloysson,
Cathaloys5 Arninadabsson,
Aminadab4 Josuesson,
Josue3 Josephsson,
Joseph Rama-Theo2 Jesusson,
Jesus Christ1 Josephsson
------------------------------------------------------
Victor Hugo (1844-85) "prophesied that in the Twentieth Century, war
would die, frontier boundaries would die, dogma would die...and Man
would live. 'He will possess something higher than these...a great
country, the Whole Earth...and a great hope, the Whole Heaven'." -
Marilyn Ferguson, The Aquarian Conspiracy
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.albino.com/circle/pos/booknotes/nautonniers.html
List of the Nautonniers of the Priory of Sion
All dates listed are Birth Dates
1.Jean deGisors - 1133 to 1220
2.Marie deSaint-Clair - ca. 1192
3.Guilaume deGisors - 1219
4.Edouard deBar - 1302
5.Jeanne deBar 1295-1361
6.Jean deSaint-Clair - ca. 1329
7.Blanche d'Evereux (Blanche de Navaarre) - 1332
8.Nicholas Flamel ca. 1330
9.Rene d'Anjou - 1408
10.Iolande deBar - ca. 1428
11.Sandro Filipepi (Botticelli) - 1444
12.Leonardo daVinci - 1452
13.Charles de Montpensier - Connetable de Bourbon - 1490 to 1527
14.Ferrante de Gonzaga - 1507 to 1557
15.Louis de Nevers (Louis de Gonzaga) - 1539
16.Robert Fludd - 1574 to 1640
17.Johan Valentin Andrea - 1586
18.Robert Boyle - 1627 to 1691
19.Isaac Newton - 1642
20.Charles Radclyffe - 1693
21.Charles de Lorraine - 1712
22.Maximilian de Lorraine - 1756
23.Charles Nodier - 1780
24.Victor Hugo - 1802
25.Claud Debussy - 1862 to 1918
26.Jean Cocteau - 1889
-------------------------------------------------------------
<<According to the Dossiers Secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters
of the Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession. One of the
Grand Masters on the list, Leonardo da Vinci, displayed a strong
interest in John the Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became
preoccupied with the writings of the Apocalypse, then attributed to
John the Evangelist.>>
The office of Nautonnier or Navigator, is symbolized by the boat of
Isis. "Isis holds in her right hand a small sailing ship with the
spindle of a spinning wheel for its mast. From the top of the mast
projects a water jug, its handle shaped like a serpent swelled with
venom. This indicates that Isis steers the bark of life, full of
troubles and miseries, on the stormy ocean of Time. The spindle
symbolizes the fact that she spins and cuts the thread of life."
- Manly P. Hall, Masonic, Hermetic, Quabbalistic & Rosicrucian
Symbolical Philosophy
http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/scripts/sion.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
List from Baigent & Leigh, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
Leonardo de Vinci - "Having little formal education, Leonardo
enthusiastically accepted Nicholas's [of Cusa] new worldview [of an
universe with no limits in space, no beginning or ending in time] as a
justification for rejecing the outmoded authority of the 'pharisees -
the 'holy friars' and of his 'adversaries' Plato and Aristotole." "For
the first time since the Ionians, he put forward a conception of science
that was wholly secular, in no way based on religious doctrines or
philosophy....In Leonardo the craftsman, scientist, and inventor are
merged into one." - Eric Lerner, The Big Bang Never Happened
"The only surviving sculpture that involved
Leonardo in its making is the statue of John the Baptist
in the Baptistry in Florence, on which he collaborated with the
utmost secrecy with Giovan Francesco Rustici, a known necromancer and
alchemist. And Leonardo's last painting was 'John the Baptist', showing
him with the same half-smile as 'The Mona Lisa', and pointing straight
upwards with the index finger of his right hand. This in Leonardo's work
is a sign always associated with John: in the 'Adoration of the Magi' a
person stands by the elevated roots of a carob tree - John's tree,
symbol of sacrifical blood - while making this gesture. In his famous
cartoon of St. Anne the subject also does this, warning an oblivious
Virgin...The disciple whose face is perhaps accusingly close to Jesus'
in 'The Last Supper' is also making this gesture. All these gestures are
saying 'remember John'." - Lynn Picknett & Clive Prince,
Turin Shroud - In Whose Image? The Shocking Truth Unveiled
Robert Fludd (1595-1637) - "inherited John Dee's mantle as England's
leading exponent of esoteric thought" who consorted with Andrea, amongst
others involved in the 'Rosicrucian' movement. "Historian Frances Yates,
in her book The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, in a chapter entitled
'Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry', quotes one De Quincey, who states,
'Freemasonry is neither more nor less than Rosicrucianism as modified by
those who transplanted it in England, whence it was re-exported to the
other countries of Europe.' De Quincey states that Robert Fludd was the
person most responsible for bringing Rosicrucianism to England and
giving it its new name." - Gerry Rose ,"The Venetian Takeover of England
and Its Creation of Freemasonry"
Robert Boyle (1654-91) - part of the "Invisible College" of dynamic
English and European minds which became the Royal Society after the
restoration of the monarch in 1160 with the Stuart ruler, Charles II as
its patron and sponsor. His two closest friends were Isaac Newton and
John Locke who met regularly with him to study alchemical works. "In the
ancient world alchemy was referred to simply as 'the sacred art'. It
flourished in the first three centuries A.D. in Alexandria, where it was
the combined product of glass and metal technology, a Hellenistic
philosophy of the unity of all things through the four elements (earth,
air, water, fire), and 'occult' religion and astrology....The essential
principle was that all things, both animate and inanimate, were
permeated by spirit, and that the substances of the lower world could,
through a synthesis of chemical operations and imaginative reasoning, be
transmuted into higher things of the spiritual world - things not
subject to decay." - David Maybury-Lewis, Millenium
"The central idea of Gnosticism is that the material of which 'soul
and true being' is composed is trapped through a series of cosmic
misfortunes in a low-level universe that is alien to it. And the
alchemists literalized these ideas to suggest that the spirit could
somehow be distilled or coaxed from the dense matrix of matter." -
Terence McKenna, The Archaic Revival
Isaac Newton (1691-1727) - "believed alchemy might enable human beings
to shape and control the world by understanding and participating in its
God-given vitality. He conducted alchemical experiments with great
secrecy at Trinity College, Cambridge, working alone, even building his
own furnaces without the aid of a bricklayer. He made a pact with the
chemist John Boyle not to communicate their shared alchemical knowledge
to others, because the 'subtle' and 'noble' powers of matter and the
means of controlling them should be kept secret by those chosen by God
to be entrusted with them." - David Maybury Lewis, Millenium
"He had been obsessed...with the notion that a secret wisdom lay
concealed within the pages of the Scriptures: Daniel of the Old
Testament and John of the New particularly attracted him because 'the
language of the prophetic writings was symbolic and hieroglyphical and
their comprehension required a radically different method of
interpretation'." "He had learned Hebrew to do the job properly and had
then carried out a...meticulous exercise on the book of Ezekiel...to
produce a painstaking reconstruction of the floor plan of
the Temple of Solomon...He had been convinced that the great edifice
built to house the Ark of the Covenant had been a kind of cryptogram of
the universe; if he could decipher this cryptogram, he had believed,
then he would know the mind of God." - Graham Hancock, The Sign and
the Seal
"Newton was not the first of the age of reason. He was the last of the
magicians, the last of the Babylonians and Sumerians, the last great
mind which looked out on the world with the same eyes as those who began
to build our intellectual inheritance rather less than ten thousand
years ago." Newton "saw the whole universe and all that is in it as a
riddle, as a secret which could be read by applying pure thought to
certain evidence, certain mystic clues which God had hid about the world
to allow a sort of philosopher's treasure hunt to the esoteric
brotherhood. He believed that these clues were to be found partly in the
evidence of the heavens and in the constitution of elements, but also
partly in certain papers and traditions handed down by the brethren in
an unbroken chain back to the original cryptic revelation." - John
Maynard Keynes, Newton the Man
Charles Radclyffe (1727-46) - personal secretary to Bonnie Prince
Charlie; promulgated, if not devised the "Scottish Rite" Freemasonry.
Radclyffe worked through Chevalier Andrew Ramsay, a member of a quasi
Masonic, quasi-"Rosicrucian" society called the Philadelphians.
Ramsay, a close friend of Isaac Newton, was prominent
in disseminating Freemasonry to the continent.
Charles de Lorraine (1746-80) - the brother of Francois, Duke of
Lorraine who was the Holy Roman emperor who married Maria Theresa of
Austria in 1735. The first European prince to become a mason, Francois'
court at Vienna became Europe's Masonic capital.
Charles Nodier (1801-44) - the flamboyant mentor for an entire
generation including young Victor Hugo, Balzac, Dalcroix, Dumas pere,
Lamartine, Musset, Theophile Gautier, Gerard de Nerval and Alfred de
Vigny - all who drew upon esoteric and Hermetic tradition. "Around 1793
he created another group - or perhaps an inner circle of the first [the
Philadephes]- which included one of the subsequent plotters against
Napoleon." - William T. Still, New World Order
Claude Debussy (1885-1918)- an integral member of the symbolist circles
which included Oscar Wilde, W. B. Yeats, Stefan George, Paul Valery, the
young Andre Gide and Marcel Proust. He also consorted with the Marquis
Stanislas de Guaita, founder of the so-called Cabalistic Order of the
Rose-Croix, and Jules Boise, a notorious Satanist who prompted MacGregor
Mathers to found the Order of the Golden Dawn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/OTHERREFERENCE/BIOGRAPHY/Newtonian.html
<<For two centuries after his death in 1727, Isaac Newton was hailed as
the supreme scientist, a Monarch of the Age of Reason and the initiator
of the scientific and the industrial revolutions, of modernity itself.
On one popular list of the hundred most influential people in history,
Newton placed No. 2, behind Mohammed but ahead of Jesus Christ. But In
1936 an interesting lot came on the block at Sotheby's in London
containing a cache of writings by Newton -- journals and personal
notebooks deemed to be "of no scientific value." The winning bidder was
the economist John Maynard Keynes. After perusing his purchase, Keynes
delivered a somewhat shocking lecture to the Royal Society Club in 1942,
on the tercentenary of Newton's birth. "Newton was not the first of the
age of reason," Keynes announced. "He was the last of the magicians."
This was meant quite literally, as was a statement expressed by the poet
Wordsworth that Newton had a mind "forever voyaging through strange seas
of thought, alone." For the "secret writings" made it clear that during
the crucial part of Newton's scientific career -- the two decades
between his discovery of the law of gravity and the publication of his
masterwork, the "Principia Mathematica" -- his consuming passion was
alchemy. Bunkered in his solitary live-in lab at the edge of the fens
near Cambridge, Newton indulged in occult literature and strove to cook
up the legendary "philosopher's stone" that would convert base metals
into gold.
And a penchant for the occult was not Newton's only quirk. He is
reported to have laughed just once in his life-when someone asked him
what use he saw in Euclid. He took to decorating his rooms in crimson.
He stuck a knife behind his eyeball to induce optical effects, nearly
blinding himself. He was a Catholic-hating Puritan who secretly
subscribed to the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ.
Newton was also given to endless feuding. He seems to have had only two
romantic attachments, both with younger males, and suffered a paranoiac
breakdown after the second came to rupture.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Hooke
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk:80/~history/Mathematicians/Hooke.html
Born: 18 July 1635 in Freshwater, Isle of Wight, England
Died: 3 March 1702 in London, England
<<In addition to his post as professor of geometry at Gresham College,
London Hooke held the post of City Surveyor. He was a very competent
architect and was chief assistant to Wren in his project to rebuild
London after the Great Fire of 1666.
In 1672 Hooke attempted to prove that the Earth moves in an ellipse
round the Sun and six years later proposed that inverse square law of
gravitation to explain planetary motions. Hooke wrote to Newton in 1679
asking for his opinion:- "of compounding the celestiall motions of the
planetts of a direct motion by the tangent (inertial motion) and an
attractive motion towards the centrall body ... my supposition is that
the Attraction always is in a duplicate proportion to the Distance from
the Center Reciprocall..."
Hooke seemed unable to give a mathematical proof of his conjectures.
However he claimed priority over the inverse square law and this led to
a bitter dispute with Newton who, as a consequence, removed all
references to Hooke from the Principia.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
> "Oral history" is in better repute, at least for the
> moment, since DNA backed up the Afro-Jeffersonians.
http://www.mbcnet.org/ETV/J/htmlJ/jeffersonst/jeffersonst.htm
Art N.
Robert Stonehouse
...
>No, I have not seen an image of the writing. I only talked to Stephanie
>Nolen, who has apparently seen it. She's the one who told me that the
>writing is only visible under ultraviolet light (or was it infrared --
>one of those). She also said that the owner was rather vague when she
>asked whether the handwriting had been examined by a paleographer, which
>led her to believe that perhaps it hadn't. I think that's an obvious
>next step -- having an expert examine the tag, both the handwriting and
>the phrasing. As others have noted, the wording on the tag sounds curiously
>modern, despite the paper being carbon-dated to the correct time.
It may be possible to date the glue with which the paper is stuck
on. Paper of the correct date, stuck on later, would suggest an
attempt to deceive. If the paper was there from the start, then the
writing could have been added innocently by someone who believed it
to be true.
The composition of the ink would be interesting too. Why did it fade
into invisibility? It seems unexpected - pictures normally have
their backs to a wall. Or was it written in invisible ink? That
would be bad news, too.
ew...@bcs.org.uk
Elizabeth Weir
> --------------------------------------------
> http://www.dragoncourt.org/pubasset/vere_01.asp
> --------------------------------------------------------
> <<The House of Vere are descended in various lines from the dynasty of
> Meroveus and consequently share this Germanic Royal Blood Tradition.
Royalty and the aristocracy are the genetic victims of generations of
calculated endogamy.
Products of individual selection have superior genes. Genes are beside the
point in endogamy.
The object is to create a permanent ingroup that cannot fail to perceive
non-relatives as the outgroup.
Speaking of Oxford, there is some scientific data that supports the theory
that the royally
inbred are genetically incapable of caring about the welfare of those
outside the ingroup.
You're probably familiar with the studies in the 1980s that found that
identical twins were
extremely altruistic and cooperative with each other while fraternal twins
argued
when performing shared tasks and were no more cooperative than other sibs.
After
centuries of inbreeding you get sibs that have a higher ratio of shared
genes than sibs
from unions resulting from indivual selection.
> Prince Milo de Vere - married to Charlemagne's sister - and as Head of
> the Imperial House and Chief of the Imperial Army, was himself an
> Imperial Prince.>>
>
> ('The Royal Genealogies' The Rev. Dr. James Anderson, D.D., M.A :
>
> Milo I de Vere was Count of Anjou, (hence eldest son of Melusine.).
> --------------------------------------------
> THE MADNESS OF KINGS
Oxford probably has far more Plantagent blood than the Tudors which
accounts for his loathesome narcissicism.
Oxford's signed poems and letters are all about me, me, me.
The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
That describes Bacon, not Oxford. If I had time I would look up
a remark about Bacon by one of his contemporaries that
demonstrates what I mean--the gist of it is that Bacon's fund of
commonplace knowledge was so vast that he could converse at
length about every occupation with tradesmen or any sport
with an aristocrat. After describing this phenomenon the writer
added something that in modern terms meant that Bacon
left the person he had been talking to with a feeling that
he had bonded empathetically with Bacon.
Oxford was emphatically not an empathetic bonder.
> <<A count of Anjou came back with a new wife, a strange girl of
> extraordinary beauty but she kept very much to
> herself. Unusually in so religious an age she was reluctant to attend
> the Mass. When she did go she always hurried from the church before the
> consecration of the host. Her husband, who was puzzled by her behaviour,
> told four knights to keep watch and to try to delay her departure from
> the church. When she got up to go, one of them trod on the hem of her
> train. As the priest raised the host to consecrate it she screamed,
> wrenched herself free, and still shrieking, flew out of the window,
> taking two of her children with her. In reality the countess was the
> wicked fairy, Melusine, the daughter of Satan, who cannot abide the
> consecration of the body of Christ in the Mass. It was from the children
> that she left behind that the counts of Anjou and the Angevin kings of
> England were said to be descended.>>
>
> (Of the Plantagenet Branch):
>
> <<So devilish an ancestry accounted for the demonic energy and
> passionate ill-temper by which these princes seemed often afflicted. 'We
> who came from the devil', John's brother, Richard I, was reported as
> saying caustically, 'must needs go back to the devil. Do not deprive us
> of our heritage: we cannot help acting like devils.' 'De diabolo venit
> et ad diabolum ibid', commented St Bernard of Clairvaux, 'From the devil
> he came, and to the devil he will go.'>>
There's a kernal of truth in these myths.
Translated into science the myth is telling us that it is risky to
be ruled by the very, very inbred. That the blame
for this is being laid on a woman not of the royal line
is predicted in the model. .
> Professor Vivian Greene.
>
> <<Cependant, apprenant plus tard que Geoffrey a brule l'abbaye de
> Maillezais et tue son frere, le Comte maudit son epouse. Il l'acuse
> publiquement d'etre "tres fausse serpent". Le secret est devoile.
> Melusine doit regagner L'Autre Monde et s'envole transformee en
> DRAGON.>>
> Christine Bonnet, Lusignan.
Another rehash of the tiresome indictment against Eve, this
time in French.
> --------------------------------------------------
> Vere Princedom
>
> <<Although Merovingian culture was both temperate surprisingly modern,
> the monarchs who presided over it were another matter. They (The
> Sorcerer Kings) were not typical even of rulers of their own age, for
> the atmosphere of mystery legend, magic and the supernatural, surrounded
> them, even during their lifetimes. If the customs and economy of the
> Merovingian world did not differ markedly from others of the period, the
> aura about the throne and royal bloodline was quite unique.
> Sons of the Merovingian blood were not 'created' kings. On the contrary
> they were automatically regarded as such on the advent of their twelfth
> birthday. There was no public ceremony of anointment, no coronation of
> any sort. Power was simply assumed, as by sacred right.
>
> But while the king was supreme authority in the realm, he was not
> obliged - or even expected - to sully his hands with the mundane
> business of governing. He was essentially a ritualised figure, a
> priest-king, and his role was not necessarily to do anything, simply to
> be. The king ruled in short, but did not govern.>>
I think the assiduously inbred disarm us. Lab studies of infants who
couldn't stop staring at asymmetrical faces demonstrate that we are
enchanted--both ways--by anomalies.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> <<Even after their conversion to Christianity the Merovingian rulers,
> like the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, were polygamous. On occasion
> they enjoyed harems of oriental proportions. Even when the aristocracy,
> under pressure from the Church, became rigorously monogamous, the
> monarchy remained exempt. And the Church, curiously enough, seems to
> have accepted this prerogative without any inordinate protest. According
> to one modern commentator: Why was it [polygamy] tacitly approved by the
> Franks themselves?
That is really interesting. My theory is that when bad genetics reaches
critical mass inbreeding loses its charm. The Merovingians
were using polygyny to play catch up to the successes of individual
selection
they saw in the countryside outside the castle. I've seen photos of the
current Merovingian heir and it was apparently too little too late.
> We may here be in the presence of ancient usage of polygamy in a royal
> family - a family of such rank that its blood could not be ennobled by
> any match, however advantageous, nor degraded by the blood of slaves ...
> It was a matter of indifference whether a queen were taken from a royal
> dynasty or from among courtesans...
> The fortune of the dynasty rested in its blood and was shared by all who
> were of that blood.
When royals start seeing close set eyes and oversize ears in their inbred
heirs
they have to come up with some kind of rationale to marry outside the
nursery. You may have made the connection that the Windsors stopped
marrying
European cousins after genetics became a science. Elizabeth II will
be the last to marry a cousin. All of Elizabeth II's heirs have married
commoners. Now it's only a matter of time for British royalty.
> And again, 'it is Just possible that, in the Merovingians, we may have a
> dynasty of Germanic Heerkonige* derived from an ancient kingly family of
> the migration period'.>>
Thomas Jefferson fiercely believed that hereditary government was the most
evil
ever devised by man. Baconian [lab] science tends to confirm that.
Erik Nielsen
You know, it's funny how often these charlatans are charlatans in other
areas as well as in their little Shakespeare theories...
Neuendorffer
> > http://www.dragoncourt.org/pubasset/vere_01.asp
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > <<The House of Vere are descended in various lines from the dynasty of
> > Meroveus and consequently share this Germanic Royal Blood Tradition.
Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> Speaking of Oxford, there is some scientific data that supports the theory
> that the royally
> inbred are genetically incapable of caring about the welfare of those
> outside the ingroup.
Data on lab rats, perhaps?
> Oxford probably has far more Plantagent blood than the Tudors which
> accounts for his loathesome narcissicism.
>
> Oxford's signed poems and letters are all about me, me, me.
That's only considered narcissicism in Mississippi.
> The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
> near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
> That describes Bacon, not Oxford.
Try telling that to Essex.
> If I had time I would look up
> a remark about Bacon by one of his contemporaries that
> demonstrates what I mean--the gist of it is that Bacon's fund of
> commonplace knowledge was so vast that he could converse at
> length about every occupation with tradesmen or any sport
> with an aristocrat. After describing this phenomenon the writer
> added something that in modern terms meant that Bacon
> left the person he had been talking to with a feeling that
> he had bonded empathetically with Bacon.
>
> Oxford was emphatically not an empathetic bonder.
Essex had bonded empathetically with Bacon.
Art Neuendorffer
Tom Reedy
Besides all the other correspondences with the Droeshut engraving, take a
look at the collars.
While the Sanders portrait collar is lower, not hiding the neck as in the
Droeshut portrait, notice how the front of the collar is at the exact angle
as in the Droeshut engraving.
Notice especially the ray-like decorations in either side of the collar. The
correspondences cannot be a coincidence.
From this, one can only conclude that one portrait was done from the other.
Either the painting was done from the Droeshut engraving or vice-versa.
TR
baker
wrote:
>Oops, I missed out a bit. It should be (I hope!)
>
>http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20010511/capt.canada_shakespeare_painting_cpt111.jpg
>
>
>Peter F.
>pet...@rey.prestel.co.uk
>http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm
thank you peter...I have collected the image...its not our
man...either of them...but it easily could be the actor...does he look
like a tightwad to you, the sort of guy who would have letterless
children and give his wife his second best bed...
john
John Baker
Visit my Webpage:
http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe
"Chance favors the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur
Pat Dooley
Tom Reedy <txr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Gl1M6.3826$gc1.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
The ear lobe is also identical between the two,
Pat Dooley
Greg Reynolds
look at a person. There is a story in his look, I just
picture him thinking tragedy, comedy, history...
all three seem present.
I don't see how anyone will convince the world it
must be Shakespeare, but as I say, it would be a thrill
to know more than we do.
I am especially curious as to why the family of the
painter would have it now instead of the family of the
subject, or the family of anyone along the way. The
confident face in the painting looks more like he
commissioned it than that he just modeled for it. So
how does the artist's family have it? What would be
the use of such a painting in 1603? Would it be
displayed? Can researchers tell if this was framed
and how many times? What else did Sanders paint?
I think it is excellent work.
Anyway, its fun to have a new wave crash on us.
And if it isn't Shakespeare, I still have it stuck in mind.
Greg Reynolds
Tom Reedy
news:XB1M6.2159$OP1.1...@news1.onlynews.com...
>
> Tom Reedy <txr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Gl1M6.3826$gc1.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> The ear lobe is also identical between the two,
>
> Pat Dooley
>
Yes. Typically, older men's earlobes droop more than younger men, but on
both the Sanders portrait and the Droeshout engraving the earlobes are the
same size and location.
I believe Speilmann was right, the painting was probably about 70 years old
when he looked at it. That would be consistant with the John Sanders of the
1800s who was a painter. It would be interesting to compare the style and
brushstrokes of the portrait with other paintings by him.
The reason why he painted it on wood was to avoid the problems of finding an
old canvas of the period. There's still plenty of 400-year-old wood in old
buildings; there's not very many blank canvases.
What is going to have to be done is to search through the paint for a brush
hair that loosened and became imbedded in the paint and have it
carbon-dated.
Of course, there's always the possibility that the painting was the model
for the Droeshout. That would be nice, but very improbable.
TR
Greg Reynolds
Tom Reedy wrote:
>
> Of course, there's always the possibility that the painting was the model
> for the Droeshout. That would be nice, but very improbable.
>
> TR
Is there significance to a black background?
Greg Reynolds
Elizabeth Weir
"Erik Nielsen" <enie...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:3B0061D4...@bu.edu...
>
> You know, it's funny how often these charlatans are charlatans in other
> areas as well as in their little Shakespeare theories...
That's pretty ironic coming from an academic who has dedicated his career to
the study of a charlatan.
Neuendorffer
> news:3B0061D4...@bu.edu...
> >
> > You know, it's funny how often these charlatans are charlatans in other
> > areas as well as in their little Shakespeare theories...
Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> That's pretty ironic coming from an academic who has dedicated his career to
> the study of a charlatan.
"An academic who has dedicated his career!" :-)
Erik Nielsen is still wearing his Boston University freshman beanie.
Art N.
Erik Nielsen
Actually, today marks the end of my sophomore year here. I'm glad to
see I'm already able to fool the unlearned into believing I'm more
qualified than I am... not an especially useful skill for our side, but
kind of entertaining.
No, I haven't learned much genetics, but I've learned enough to
recognize a quack when I see one. (Of course, Elizabeth here probably
couldn't order dinner at a restaurant without sounding like a quack, so
this may not be such a great feat.)
I have studied some Shakespeare, as well as the other authors I
tentatively plan to devote at least a portion of my career to --
Laurence Sterne and Ben Jonson. All in all, it's been a good two years,
and I'm looking forward to two more. And graduate school. And then
I'll be an academic, and have a career toi dedicate to things, assuming
my two years of writer's block don't clear up quickly and to great
effect.
Of course, I'm going back home now, so you'll see me rarely if ever for
the next three months or so. To any of you I may have offended
personally, I apologize; to any of you I may have offended by ridiculing
their pet theories -- their HOBBY-HORSES, as it were -- I wish to
reiterate what I said to begin with. And to all of you and the rest of
you whom I haven't offended, I'll see you in September.
--erik nielsen
Elizabeth Weir
>
>
> Neuendorffer wrote:
> >
> > > "Erik Nielsen" <enie...@bu.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:3B0061D4...@bu.edu...
> > > >
> > > > You know, it's funny how often these charlatans are charlatans in
other
> > > > areas as well as in their little Shakespeare theories...
> >
> > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> >
> > > That's pretty ironic coming from an academic who has dedicated his
career to
> > > the study of a charlatan.
> >
> > "An academic who has dedicated his career!" :-)
> >
> > Erik Nielsen is still wearing his Boston University freshman beanie.
Like a BU beanie would fit that swollen head.
> Actually, today marks the end of my sophomore year here. I'm glad to
> see I'm already able to fool the unlearned into believing I'm more
> qualified than I am...
You need to recalibrate your ego. I thought you were a fourth-rate academic
because you weren't keeping up with Kathman or Ross.
>not an especially useful skill for our side, >but
> kind of entertaining.
> No, I haven't learned much genetics,
but I've learned enough to
> recognize a quack when I see one.
(Of course, Elizabeth here probably
> couldn't order dinner at a restaurant without sounding like a quack, so
> this may not be such a great feat.)
> I have studied some Shakespeare,
as well as the other authors I
> tentatively plan to devote at least a portion of my career to --
> Laurence Sterne and Ben Jonson. All in all, it's been a good two years,
> and I'm looking forward to two more. And graduate school. And then
> I'll be an academic, and have a career toi dedicate to things, assuming
> my two years of writer's block don't clear up quickly and to great
> effect.
>
> Of course, I'm going back home now, so you'll see me rarely if ever for
> the next three months or so. To any of you I may have offended
> personally, I apologize; to any of you I may have offended by ridiculing
> their pet theories -- their HOBBY-HORSES, as it were -- I wish to
> reiterate what I said to begin with. And to all of you and the rest of
> you whom I haven't offended, I'll see you in September.
That's fascinating Erik. We'll just suspend HLAS until you return because
we wouldn't want to miss one of your incomparable posts.
> --erik nielsen
Geralyn Horton
Huh?
I followed your link.
I just read about this TV show in a long review of a
book about images of Blacks on TV. But what has it to
do with my comment about DNA tests confirming the oral
tradition of Jefferson's "wrong side of the blanket"
descendants through Thomas Woodson, son of Sally
Hemmings?
--
Neuendorffer
> >
> > > "Oral history" is in better repute, at least for the
> > > moment, since DNA backed up the Afro-Jeffersonians.
> Neuendorffer wrote:
> >
> > http://www.mbcnet.org/ETV/J/htmlJ/jeffersonst/jeffersonst.htm
Geralyn Horton wrote:
>
> Dear Art
> Huh?
> I followed your link.
> I just read about this TV show in a long review of a
> book about images of Blacks on TV. But what has it to
> do with my comment about DNA tests confirming the oral
> tradition of Jefferson's "wrong side of the blanket"
> descendants through Thomas Woodson, son of Sally
> Hemmings?
------------------------------------------------
The head of the Afro-Jeffersonian Hemslings:
George Jefferson ...............Sherman Hemsley
-------------------------------------------------
Art N.
john_baker
wrote:
>Is this Shakespeare? A portrait handed down from generation to generation is
>causing a stir around the world. Read a story about this fascinating
>portrait in today's Globe and Mail. Scroll down a bit..you will see the
>heading: "Portrait piques world interest." Here is the url:
>
>http://www.globeandmail.ca/
>
>Peter Fokes
>http://www.toronto.hm/
>From Toronto With Love
>
I have posted a high resolution scan of the Sanders Portrait, sent to
me by Tom Reedy, and its vissual family on my web site...its down at
the bottom. Enjoy.
David Kathman
Hey, that's more of an academic career than most Oxfordians have.
(BA-DUM-BUMP!)
Thank you, I'll be here until Tuesday!
Dave Kathman
dj...@ix.netcom.com
Elizabeth Weir
monument in the Dugdale drawing.
That should ruin your summer.
"David Kathman" <dj...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3B01F2BB...@popd.ix.netcom.com...
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3B0005D4...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
[...]
> > "David L. Webb" wrote:
> >
> > > I presume that
> > > you place full reliance in the web site whose URL you provide above.
> > > Yet that site clearly states that the portrait in question is of a
> > > *cat*; the presence of the human in the painting is probably
> > > incidental and irrelevant:
> > >
> > > "This is a portrait of a cat Trixie and his human friend Henry,
> > > the third Earl of Southampton. The Earl was imprisoned for some
> > > stupid human business into the Tower of London."
> > >
> > > In any case, the human cannot be the fellow of the Sonnets' dedication
> > > -- the latter's surname was apparently spelled "Wr-htoi-esley," and his
> > > first name was probably Hiram (or perhaps Pheon or Nile).
> Neuendorffer wrote:
>
> > Here's a better "Wr-htoi-esley" picture:
> >
> > http://www.selonica.com/shakespeare/venus.htm
Wonderful, Art. The only slight problem is that it *isn't* a
portrait of Southampton. It's a painting found at Corpus Christi
College at Cambridge University; it is believed to be a portrait of
Christopher Marlowe.
Excellent, Art -- I see that you've joined the credulous conspiracy
crackpots to whom I alluded!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Descent from Jesus
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/index.htm#toc
>
> Clovis 14 d. Paris, 511,
> Childeric 13 d. 481,
> Meroveus Franks12 Clodinsson (Meroveus died 456),
> Clodion11 Famundson
> Faramund10 Frotmundson,
> Frotmund9 Boazsson,
> Boaz8 Titurelsson,
> Titurel7 Manuelsson,
> Manuel6 Cathaloysson,
> Cathaloys5 Arninadabsson,
> Aminadab4 Josuesson,
> Josue3 Josephsson,
> Joseph Rama-Theo2 Jesusson,
> Jesus Christ1 Josephsson
Brilliant, Art -- so you think that Jesus's son by Mary Magdalene
employed the Icelandic-style patronymic "Jesusson" when the family
emigrated to the Languedoc?
> http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
>
> Richard42 Neville
> (Richard41 Nevill,
> Joan Beaufort40 ,
> John Of Gaunt39,
> Edward Iii38,
> Edward Ii37,
> Edward I (Longshanks)36,
So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
Extra credit if you can locate my family in the Bloodline, Art.
[Hint: Try the Scottish branch of the family.]
Why did you stop at Jean Cocteau, Art? Aren't you aware of Pierre
Plantard de St. Clair? Who's the Grand Master now, Art?
There is little one can add to that, Art.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> >
> > > Here's a better "Wr-htoi-esley" picture:
> > >
> > > http://www.selonica.com/shakespeare/venus.htm
>
> Wonderful, Art. The only slight problem is that it *isn't* a
> portrait of Southampton. It's a painting found at Corpus Christi
> College at Cambridge University; it is believed to be a portrait of
> Christopher Marlowe.
http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe/portrait.htm
c.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Descent from Jesus
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/index.htm#toc
> >
> > Clovis 14 d. Paris, 511,
> > Childeric 13 d. 481,
> > Meroveus Franks12 Clodinsson (Meroveus died 456),
> > Clodion11 Famundson
> > Faramund10 Frotmundson,
> > Frotmund9 Boazsson,
> > Boaz8 Titurelsson,
> > Titurel7 Manuelsson,
> > Manuel6 Cathaloysson,
> > Cathaloys5 Arninadabsson,
> > Aminadab4 Josuesson,
> > Josue3 Josephsson,
> > Joseph Rama-Theo2 Jesusson,
> > Jesus Christ1 Josephsson
>
> Brilliant, Art -- so you think that Jesus's son by Mary Magdalene
> employed the Icelandic-style patronymic "Jesusson" when the family
> emigrated to the Languedoc?
It's better than Jesus Junior.
> > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
> >
> > Richard42 Neville
> > (Richard41 Nevill,
> > Joan Beaufort40 ,
> > John Of Gaunt39,
> > Edward Iii38,
> > Edward Ii37,
> > Edward I (Longshanks)36,
>
> So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
And Quinotaur.
You're a lineal descendant of Jesus, Dave? Jesus, Dave!
Tiger Woods?
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > <<Hooke seemed unable to give a mathematical proof of his conjectures.
> > However he claimed priority over the inverse square law and this led
> > to a bitter dispute with Newton who, as a consequence, removed all
> > references to Hooke from the Principia.>>
> There is little one can add to that, Art.
This is your last chance, Tiger Lily.
Art Neuendorffer
John W. Kennedy
> The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
> near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
"metaphysical"?
> There's a kernal of truth in these myths.
> Translated into science the myth is telling us that it is risky to
> be ruled by the very, very inbred. That the blame
> for this is being laid on a woman not of the royal line
> is predicted in the model. .
We're working on the great principle: Lucus a non lucendum, I see.
--
John W. Kennedy
(Working from my laptop)
John W. Kennedy
> I believe Speilmann was right, the painting was probably about 70 years old
> when he looked at it. That would be consistant with the John Sanders of the
> 1800s who was a painter. It would be interesting to compare the style and
> brushstrokes of the portrait with other paintings by him.
But all this argues a cautious and deliberate fraud by the 19th-century
John Sanders, followed by a complete failure to follow through with it.
And was dendrochronology an established science back then?
> Of course, there's always the possibility that the painting was the model
> for the Droeshout. That would be nice, but very improbable.
I don't see the "very improbable" there. The engraving, being well
posthumous, _must_ have had some model. Why should it not be one that
(at the time) Hemmings and Condell might easily have had ready access
to, as they would have if the painter was associated with the company?
Elizabeth Weir
"John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:3B02C137...@bellatlantic.net...
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
> > near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
>
> "metaphysical"?
Some people have an intuition with extention just as geniuses have minds
with extention.
> > There's a kernal of truth in these myths.
> > Translated into science the myth is telling us that it is risky to
> > be ruled by the very, very inbred. That the blame
> > for this is being laid on a woman not of the royal line
> > is predicted in the model. .
>
> We're working on the great principle: Lucus a non lucendum, I see.
I can translate the words [barely] but I don't know the idiom.
The current theory is that our emotionality is genetic. Identical twin
studies suggest that there is more altruism--empathetic emotion--between
those whose genes are shared. Fraternal twins get the luck of the draw of
all their ancestors' genes and have far less altruism. It isn't nurture
because fraternal twins shared a womb but have no more altruism than sibs
who did not so this heightened altruism in identical twins has to be
genetic.
I spent several hundred posts arguing with two Israeli geneticists on the
subject of genetic relatedness. It was brutal.
Tom Reedy
> Tom Reedy wrote:
> > I believe Speilmann was right, the painting was probably about 70 years
old
> > when he looked at it. That would be consistant with the John Sanders of
the
> > 1800s who was a painter. It would be interesting to compare the style
and
> > brushstrokes of the portrait with other paintings by him.
>
> But all this argues a cautious and deliberate fraud by the 19th-century
> John Sanders, followed by a complete failure to follow through with it.
A "cautious and deliberate fraud" is one possibility. Certainly there have
been many.
I don't understand you saying, "followed by a complete failure to go through
with it." It seems to me it has worked up to now.
One vital piece of knowledge is the reason why Speilmann dated it only 70
years back--that would tell us a lot.
The painter also could have done it as an experiment for his own amusement,
and then the family tradition got tacked on later. I have traced back many
"family traditions," most of them less than a century old, that were based
on nothing more than wishful thinking. The fact that the two painters had
the same name argues for a confused family story, especially since there is
no evidence for a John Sanders in the King's Men.
> And was dendrochronology an established science back then?
Certainly if one were going to perpetrate a fraud of this type one would try
to use the most authentic materials possible. Why else would those who
counterfeited Shakespeare portraits in the 19th century do it using
17th-century paintings? As I said, old wood is much more available than old
canvas.
> > Of course, there's always the possibility that the painting was the
model
> > for the Droeshout. That would be nice, but very improbable.
>
> I don't see the "very improbable" there. The engraving, being well
> posthumous, _must_ have had some model. Why should it not be one that
> (at the time) Hemmings and Condell might easily have had ready access
> to, as they would have if the painter was associated with the company?
Well, the correspondences between the two portraits can be explained that
way, but I don't see that scenario as very probable, in any case.
Believe me, I'll be pleasantly surprised if I am proved wrong.
In any case, it _is_ a new portrait of Shakespeare, even if it is based on
the Droeshout.
And if it is based on the Droeshout, having the years artificially turned
back is interesting, I wonder why no one has thought to do a computer
simulation of the Droeshout and reverse the aging process so we could see
what he looked like at younger ages.
TR
Paul Crowley
> > And was dendrochronology an established science back then?
>
> Certainly if one were going to perpetrate a fraud of this type one would try
> to use the most authentic materials possible. Why else would those who
> counterfeited Shakespeare portraits in the 19th century do it using
> 17th-century paintings? As I said, old wood is much more available than old
> canvas.
Dendrochronology only came into existence -- as an idea --
around 1970. Before 1900 no one would have conceived that
wood or fabric could possibly be dated, except by 'style'. As I
see it there are two main possibilities -- (a) a very recent forgery
done with a knowledge of modern science (most unlikely IMO,
since the whole thing is basically so crude); and
(b) a 'genuine' attempt around whenever (1660?) to draw a
portrait of Shakespeare, using the Folio as a model.
> > > Of course, there's always the possibility that the painting was the
> model
> > > for the Droeshout. That would be nice, but very improbable.
> >
> > I don't see the "very improbable" there. The engraving, being well
> > posthumous, _must_ have had some model. Why should it not be one that
> > (at the time) Hemmings and Condell might easily have had ready access
> > to, as they would have if the painter was associated with the company?
Take a look at the Folio and the Sanders and ask yourself
which is the copy. How could anyone come up with a
monstrosity like the Folio?
> In any case, it _is_ a new portrait of Shakespeare, even if it is based on
> the Droeshout.
I can do another one tonight, if you want. And another
tomorrow -- so long as I'm paid.
> And if it is based on the Droeshout, having the years artificially turned
> back is interesting, I wonder why no one has thought to do a computer
> simulation of the Droeshout and reverse the aging process so we could see
> what he looked like at younger ages.
Go into your kitchen, get a potato -- any shape will do. Cut in
two eyes, a mouth and a nose. Then ask an 'expert' to
reverse the 'ageing process'. You'd have about the same
chance of a successful (or even polite) response.
Paul.
--
Email: pebj...@ubgznvy.pbz (apply ROT13)
John W. Kennedy
>
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:3B02C137...@bellatlantic.net...
> > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > > The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
> > > near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
> >
> > "metaphysical"?
>
> Some people have an intuition with extention just as geniuses have minds
> with extention.
Shakespeare uses the word "metaphysical" to mean "supernatural", but
that sense has been obsolete for a very long time now.
> > > There's a kernal of truth in these myths.
> > > Translated into science the myth is telling us that it is risky to
> > > be ruled by the very, very inbred. That the blame
> > > for this is being laid on a woman not of the royal line
> > > is predicted in the model. .
> >
> > We're working on the great principle: Lucus a non lucendum, I see.
>
> I can translate the words [barely] but I don't know the idiom.
Classic example of bad logic. "It's called a 'lucus' [forest] because
there _isn't_ any light there [non lucendum]."
> The current theory is that our emotionality is genetic. Identical twin
> studies suggest that there is more altruism--empathetic emotion--between
> those whose genes are shared. Fraternal twins get the luck of the draw of
> all their ancestors' genes and have far less altruism. It isn't nurture
> because fraternal twins shared a womb but have no more altruism than sibs
> who did not so this heightened altruism in identical twins has to be
> genetic.
And was this study on identical twins raised in isolation and unaware of
their twin relationship? Because, if not, the conclusion is a load of
hooey.
John W. Kennedy
>
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:3B02C378...@bellatlantic.net...
> > Tom Reedy wrote:
> > > I believe Speilmann was right, the painting was probably about 70 years
> old
> > > when he looked at it. That would be consistant with the John Sanders of
> the
> > > 1800s who was a painter. It would be interesting to compare the style
> and
> > > brushstrokes of the portrait with other paintings by him.
> >
> > But all this argues a cautious and deliberate fraud by the 19th-century
> > John Sanders, followed by a complete failure to follow through with it.
>
> A "cautious and deliberate fraud" is one possibility. Certainly there have
> been many.
>
> I don't understand you saying, "followed by a complete failure to go through
> with it." It seems to me it has worked up to now.
After lying fallow for 70 years, and then another century after that?
Cui bono?
> The painter also could have done it as an experiment for his own amusement,
> and then the family tradition got tacked on later. I have traced back many
> "family traditions," most of them less than a century old, that were based
> on nothing more than wishful thinking. The fact that the two painters had
> the same name argues for a confused family story, especially since there is
> no evidence for a John Sanders in the King's Men.
>
> > And was dendrochronology an established science back then?
>
> Certainly if one were going to perpetrate a fraud of this type one would try
> to use the most authentic materials possible. Why else would those who
> counterfeited Shakespeare portraits in the 19th century do it using
> 17th-century paintings? As I said, old wood is much more available than old
> canvas.
The wood is _very_ exactly the right age.
Anyway, which is it? A fraud or an experiment? You can't use both
theories to support each other.
Mind, I'm not arguing for its authenticity -- that's for specialists
with more knowledge and more access than I have. But some of the
arguments being used against it work just as well in reverse.
Elizabeth Weir
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> >
> > "John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> > news:3B02C137...@bellatlantic.net...
> > > Elizabeth Weir wrote:
> > > > The plays were written by someone capable of looking with
> > > > near metaphysical sensitivity into the character of other people.
> > >
> > > "metaphysical"?
> >
> > Some people have an intuition with extention just as geniuses have minds
> > with extention.
>
> Shakespeare uses the word "metaphysical" to mean "supernatural", but
> that sense has been obsolete for a very long time now.
There is no Aristotelian use of 'metaphysical?' I'm going to look.
> > > > There's a kernal of truth in these myths.
> > > > Translated into science the myth is telling us that it is risky to
> > > > be ruled by the very, very inbred. That the blame
> > > > for this is being laid on a woman not of the royal line
> > > > is predicted in the model. .
> > >
> > > We're working on the great principle: Lucus a non lucendum, I see.
> >
> > I can translate the words [barely] but I don't know the idiom.
>
> Classic example of bad logic. "It's called a 'lucus' [forest] because
> there _isn't_ any light there [non lucendum]."
I was replying to Neuendorffer's post on Oxford's mythical
genealogy. Neuendorffer uses a sort of Joycean non-linear
logic. That isn't like a syllogism. I'd like to see you argue
with Neuendorffer and do any better.
> > The current theory is that our emotionality is genetic. Identical twin
> > studies suggest that there is more altruism--empathetic emotion--between
> > those whose genes are shared. Fraternal twins get the luck of the draw
of
> > all their ancestors' genes and have far less altruism. It isn't nurture
> > because fraternal twins shared a womb but have no more altruism than
sibs
> > who did not so this heightened altruism in identical twins has to be
> > genetic.
>
> And was this study on identical twins raised in isolation and unaware of
> their twin relationship? Because, if not, the conclusion is a load of
> hooey.
The controls were fraternal twins not raised in isolation. The theory
until lately was that identical twins should be raised as individuals, not
one soul in two bodies. Parents made an effort to separate their identites.
It doesn't work. There is a lot of data gathered on adult identical twins
separated
at birth and they lead uncannily parallel lives.
I owe you a post on Lilliputians. You'll hate that argument too.
David L. Webb
(ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > > > Here's a better "Wr-htoi-esley" picture:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.selonica.com/shakespeare/venus.htm
> > Wonderful, Art. The only slight problem is that it *isn't* a
> > portrait of Southampton. It's a painting found at Corpus Christi
> > College at Cambridge University; it is believed to be a portrait of
> > Christopher Marlowe.
> http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe/portrait.htm
ph...@errors.comedy strikes again! This is a shining example of your
trademark credulous reliance upon whateVER you find on the web, without
making the slightest effort to ascertain its correctness, Art. In some
sense, the Brotherblue instance was funnier, since the propaganda about
conspiracies of space aliens was most entertaining, but I thought that
eVERyone with even a nodding familiarity with the literature of the period
was aware of the provenance of the portrait in question, and the
conjectural identity of the sitter. I'll bet that if some nutcase put up
a web page proclaiming the face on the dollar bill to be a portrait of
Southampton, you would jubilantly post it as more evidence for your
conspriacy theory!
I suppose that some of your ravings above should really have been
snipped, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it -- the material is so
funny that one wishes that your post would neVER expire.
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Descent from Jesus
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/index.htm#toc
> > >
> > > Clovis 14 d. Paris, 511,
> > > Childeric 13 d. 481,
> > > Meroveus Franks12 Clodinsson (Meroveus died 456),
> > > Clodion11 Famundson
> > > Faramund10 Frotmundson,
> > > Frotmund9 Boazsson,
> > > Boaz8 Titurelsson,
> > > Titurel7 Manuelsson,
> > > Manuel6 Cathaloysson,
> > > Cathaloys5 Arninadabsson,
> > > Aminadab4 Josuesson,
> > > Josue3 Josephsson,
> > > Joseph Rama-Theo2 Jesusson,
> > > Jesus Christ1 Josephsson
> > Brilliant, Art -- so you think that Jesus's son by Mary Magdalene
> > employed the Icelandic-style patronymic "Jesusson" when the family
> > emigrated to the Languedoc?
> It's better than Jesus Junior.
It is?
> > > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
> > >
> > > Richard42 Neville
> > > (Richard41 Nevill,
> > > Joan Beaufort40 ,
> > > John Of Gaunt39,
> > > Edward Iii38,
> > > Edward Ii37,
> > > Edward I (Longshanks)36,
> > So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
> And Quinotaur.
I see, Art -- I was just checking.
I thought that you had already concluded that, Art. What do you think
Rex Deus is, anyway? Actually, I know of no reason for you to believe
that Jesus eVER generated *any* bloodline, but I'm sure that that
circumstance won't stop you.
His name isn't John, is it? Wake up, Art.
David Webb
Neuendorffer
>
> > > > > Here's a better "Wr-htoi-esley" picture:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.selonica.com/shakespeare/venus.htm
>
> > > Wonderful, Art. The only slight problem is that it *isn't* a
> > > portrait of Southampton. It's a painting found at Corpus Christi
> > > College at Cambridge University; it is believed to be a portrait of
> > > Christopher Marlowe.
>
> > http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe/portrait.htm
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> ph...@errors.comedy strikes again! This is a shining example of your
> trademark credulous reliance upon whateVER you find on the web, without
> making the slightest effort to ascertain its correctness, Art.
I don't believe everything I find on the webb. . .
http://www.clark.net/pub/tross/ws/will.html for instance.
> In some
> sense, the Brotherblue instance was funnier, since the propaganda about
> conspiracies of space aliens was most entertaining, but I thought that
> eVERyone with even a nodding familiarity with the literature of the period
> was aware of the provenance of the portrait in question, and the
> conjectural identity of the sitter.
Whoever it is is standing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Conjectural, a. Date: 1553 [L. conjecturalis: cf. F. conjectural.]
Dependent on conjecture; fancied; imagined; guessed at; undetermined;
doubtful.
And mak'st conjectural fears to come into me. --Shak.
Conjecture, n. Date: 14th century [L. conjectura, fr. conjicere,
conjectum, to throw together, infer, conjecture; con- + jacere to throw:
cf. F. conjecturer. See {Jet} a shooting forth.]
An opinion, or judgment, formed on defective or presumptive evidence;
probable inference; surmise; guess; suspicion.
[Herodotus] would thus have corrected his first loose conjecture
by a real study of nature. --Whewell.
Conjectures, fancies, built on nothing firm. --Milton.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www2.localaccess.com/marlowe/marloweport.htm
<<In the early 1950s, an Elizabethan portrait materialized, some what
mysteriously, during a renovation at Marlowe's college, Corpus Christi,
Cambridge, dated 1585. It bears a Latin inscription testifying that the
young man portrayed was 21 years of age. Some damage had been
sustained, but the sitter's face, dress and posture was clear enough to
make restoration feasible. The portrait bore a Latin motto long
associated with the works of Marlowe and, later, Shakespeare, "Quod me
Nutrit me Destruit," variously translated as "that which nourishes me
destroys me" or "destroyed by what nourishes me." The condition of the
portrait, the fact it seems to have been "hidden" or removed from view
and lost, its age and the motto all lend itself to the conclusion that
it is of Corpus Christi's most famous student, Christopher Marlowe.
Like the sitter, he was 21 in 1585. Also like the sitter, whose hands
are concealed from view, Marlowe was a professional keeper of secrets.
While other scholars were required to wear the costume of scholars,
Marlowe who worked for Her Majesty's Secret Service, was, like the
sitter, allowed to wear silks. Moreover he alone of Corpus Christi
students had undergone a significant reversal of fortune, which would
have required the removal of his portrait from the hall where the
students ate their meals. The most suggestive connection of all is the
motto or trope. Its not a common one and shows itself to have been the
invention of the sitter. It appears, in various garbs, in all (or
nearly all) of the works of Marlowe and, for those who believe them
separate writers, curiously, throughout the works of Shakespeare as
well.
In the anonymous Kentish play, The Murder of Master Arden or Arden of
Faversham it finds a similar expression, in the same act and scene, "a
woman's love is as the lightning flame, Which even in bursting forth
consumes itself." (I, ii, 28/9) In the sequel to Marlowe's Edward II,
the anonymous, Edward III, its woven into a trope that appears on a
heraldic shield on the colors displayed at Bretagene by Salisbury's
army, "A pelican, my lord, Wounding her bosom with her crooked beak,
that so her nest of young ones may be fed With drops of blood that issue
from her heart." III,v. A.D. Wraight has proven that Edward III
contains a scene based on intelligence young Marlowe gathered during the
Armada battle, even naming the ship upon which he served, the
Nonpareil.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.marlowe-society.org/
This portrait, generally believed to be of Christopher Marlowe, was
found at Corpus Christi College, where he studied , and is inscribed (in
the top left hand corner)
with his age, the date and his motto:-
ANNO DNI .. AETATIS SVAE 21 .. 1585 .. QVOD ME NVTRIT ME DESTRVIT
Aged 21 in 1585, his motto: That which nourishes me destroys me
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'll bet that if some nutcase put up
> a web page proclaiming the face on the dollar bill to be a portrait of
> Southampton, you would jubilantly post it as more evidence for your
> conspriacy theory!
I'll bet that if some nutcase put up a web page proclaiming the face
on the DROESHOUT/HERODOTUS engraving to be an actual portrait of
Shake-speare, I would jubilantly post it as more evidence for
your Rex Deus conspiracy!
http://www.clark.net/pub/tross/ws/will.html for instance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <3b032135$1...@news.pacifier.com>, Elizabeth Weir
<elizabe...@mail.com> wrote:
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:3B030236...@bellatlantic.net...
[...]
> > Classic example of bad logic. "It's called a 'lucus' [forest] because
> > there _isn't_ any light there [non lucendum]."
> I was replying to Neuendorffer's post on Oxford's mythical
> genealogy. Neuendorffer uses a sort of Joycean non-linear
> logic.
It's certainly "nonlinear." Whether it is "Joycean" is open to
question, but it certainly is not "logic."
> That isn't like a syllogism. I'd like to see you argue
> with Neuendorffer and do any better.
Art is just trolling for his own amusement (and affording the rest
of us some entertainment thereby), so there's little point in arguing
seriously with him. However, to the extent that he ever says anything
coherent and substantive (which occurs very rarely), his conclusions
and even his assertions of fact have been shown to be farcically false
countless times. That's how he earned the name ph...@errors.comedy.
David Webb
Tom Lay
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <3B0005D4...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
> (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
> >
> > Richard42 Neville
> > (Richard41 Nevill,
> > Joan Beaufort40 ,
> > John Of Gaunt39,
> > Edward Iii38,
> > Edward Ii37,
> > Edward I (Longshanks)36,
>
> So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
Art has obviously been corresponding with Lord Burford. Here is an
excerpt from a Daily Telegraph article Terry posted here some time
back (ahh, the glories of the restored deja/google usenet archive):
=======
Lord Burford believes that the hereditary peers are the defenders of
the
nation's spirituality. In fact, he thinks some of them are actually
descended from Christ's British disciples.
"Jesus visited England before he began his ministry in Palestine with
his
uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, who had tin mining rights in Cornwall. He
spent a lot of time here and set up a mission with 12 anchorites who
became the basis of the Knights of the Round Table," he says. "Jesus
was
the origin of chivalry and the purpose of nobility was to nurture
these
spiritual ideals."
========
The entire article (a great read) is at
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=burford+terry+woolsack&hl=en&lr=&group=humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare&safe=off&rnum=3&ic=1&selm=Pine.GSO.4.10.9911140744030.9741-100000%40mail.bcpl.net
Tom
Neuendorffer
> > I was replying to Neuendorffer's post on Oxford's mythical
> > genealogy. Neuendorffer uses a sort of Joycean non-linear
> > logic.
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> It's certainly "nonlinear." Whether it is "Joycean" is open to
> question, but it certainly is not "logic."
hlas posts are made by fools like me,
but only Webb can make a mulberry tree.
> > That isn't like a syllogism. I'd like to see you argue
> > with Neuendorffer and do any better.
>
> Art is just trolling for his own amusement (and affording the rest
> of us some entertainment thereby), so there's little point in arguing
> seriously with him. However, to the extent that he ever says anything
> coherent and substantive (which occurs very rarely), his conclusions
> and even his assertions of fact have been shown to be farcically false
> countless times. That's how he earned the name ph...@errors.comedy.
His mouth is stopped, with half his songs unsung;
His arm is still, that struck to make men free.
But let no cloud of lamentation be
Where, on a warrior's grave, a lyre is hung.
We keep the echoes of his golden tongue,
We keep the vision of his chivalry.
We keep the echoes of his golden tongue,
We keep the vision of his chivalry.
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
http://rfaulconer.home.mindspring.com/navy/wapage1.htm
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/egyabuq.htm
<<Greek mythology tells the story of Menelaus,
king of Sparta, who stopped in Herakleion during his return
from Troy with Helen. His helmsman Canopus was bitten
by a viper and subsequently transformed into a god.
Canopus and his wife Menouthis were immortalised by
the two cities that bore their names.>>
----------------------------------------------------------
The Columbia Encyclopedia
<<Canopus, ancient city of N Egypt, 12 mi (19 km) E of Alexandria.
Canopus, the pilot of Menelaus’ ship, died there. In Hellenistic times
Canopus was known as a pleasure city for the rich. Vases capped with the
figure of a human head, called Canopic vases, were used to hold the
viscera of embalmed bodies.
http://westlake.k12.oh.us/parkside/newEgypt/canopic.htm
The Decree of Canopus, issued there in 238 B.C. and found at Tanis,
has been of value in studying the ancient Egyptian language.>>
----------------------------------------------------------
Herbert's _Dune_: Arrakis' star - Canopus
http://www.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1607/2535
<<Canopus: the main star in the constellation Argo. It is the second
biggest star in the sky after Sirius. While the brightest star in the
southern hemisphere, Canopus is not visible to anyone living above
latitude 30 degrees north. For inhabitants of the southern hemisphere,
Canopus announces the beginning of summer because it culminates on
December 27th.
Its name, which originates from the Coptic or Egyptian Kahi Nub, which
means 'Golden Earth', comes from that of the chief pilot of the fleet of
Menelaus. A city was also founded and named after him, that ancient city
was located east of Alexandria in Northern Egypt. It was the site of a
great temple honoring Serapis. Ancient Canopus is now in ruins, but its
site is occupied by the village of Al Bekir, or Aboukir, famous from
Lord Nelson's Battle of the Nile, August 1, 1798, and from Napoleon's
Victory over the Turks a year afterwards; it is interesting to remember
that it was here, from the terraced walls of the Serapeum, the temple of
Serapis, that Ptolemy made his observations.
Posidonius of Alexandria, about the middle of the 3rd century before
Christ, utilized Canopus in his attempt to measure a degree on the
earth's surface. The Arabs knew Canopus as Suhel, the Plain. This word
was also a personal title in Arabia, the symbol of what is brilliant,
glorious, and beautiful, and even now among the nomads is thus applied
to a handsome person. Among the Persians Suhail is a synonym of wisdom,
seen in the well-known Al Anwar i Suhaili, the Lights of Canopus and
referred to wise thought, the brilliance of the mind. Another occasional
early title was Al Pahi, the Camel Stallion.
Allusions to Canopus in every age indicate that everywhere it was an
important star, especially in the Desert where it was known as the Ship
Of The Desert. There it was a great favorite, giving rise to many of the
proverbs of the Arabs, their stories and superstitions and supposed to
impart the much-prized color to their precious stones, and immunity from
disease.
It is a major navigational star and known as the Lighthouse Of The
Universe, and in a general way it served as a southern pole star - a
guiding star. It (along with the constellation's second-brightest star
Miaplacidus, Beta Carina) is used by NASA as a marker for setting space
flight coordinates and serves as a navigational aid to interstellar
orbiters to navigate through the abyss of space. Spacecraft carry
devices called 'Canopus star trackers'.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.wcc.hawaii.edu/aerospace/curriculum/shapesize.html
<<Eratosthenes became head librarian at the Royal Library around 235 BC.
There, he made the first accurate measurement of the earth's
circumference. His value (based on the altitude of the noontime sun as
seen from Alexandria and Syene on the first day of summer) was
approximately 25,000 miles. The actual equatorial circumference is
24,902 miles.
In 150 AD, CLAUDIUS Ptolemy recomputed this measurement based on the
altitude shift of Canopus, second brightest star in the sky. His figure
equaled 18,000 miles. Ptolemy abandoned the idea that we're girdled by a
great unsailable ocean. Ptolemy believed that other lands lay out in the
terra incognita. Christopher Columbus' estimate of the short distance to
the Indies was influenced by miscalculations of the Earth's diameter by
[CLAUDIUS] Ptolemy, and by apocryphal Biblical accounts.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Gerard de Sede, Les templiers sont parmi nous,
ou l'enigme de Gisors, (The Templars Are Among Us, or the
Enigma of Gisors), Julliard, Paris. 1962
http://www.memorymap.com/plantard_01.htm
<<The Chariot of the Sea, the White Ship of Juno with the sixty-three
lights of which one is Canopus, the sublime eye of the architect, which
opens every seventy years to contemplate the Universe [SM: eye = ayin =
70], the ship Argo that transported the Golden Fleece, in Christianity
the modest barque of Peter. It is the symbolic Ark where nothing profane
can penetrate without incurring punishment: "To the sacriligious a fall,
to the thief death within a year." Only those who are capable of working
the cube of the wood of Mars - that magic "die" entrusted to the
vigilance of two children: Castor and Pollux - to perfection, in every
sense, can enter there.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------
March 18, 1314 Jacques(pere) DeMolay burned to death.
March 18, 1564 Shaks(pere) born (250 years later!!!)
----------------------------------------------------------------
On March 18, 1564, the planets Jupiter & Saturn (in retrograde)
hover close to the star Pollux (in near conjunction).
William: MARCH 18, 1564 + 39 days => APRIL 26, 1564
APRIL 26, 1564 + 39 days => JUNE 4, 1564
On Corpus Christi June 4, 1564, there was a SPECTACULARLY close
clustering of Jupiter, Venus, Mars, & Saturn
------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturn R.A. 121 1/2
Mars R.A. 123
Venus R.A. 123 1/4
Jupiter R.A. 127
Three planets within 3 degrees of R.A. 124:
one chance in (60 x 60 x 60 =) 216,000!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.jollyroger.com/library1/ThePhilobiblonofRicharddeBuryebook.html
PREFACE
The Author of the Book. Richard de Bury (1281-1345),
so called from being born near Bury St. Edmunds,
was the son of Sir Richard Aungerville. He studied
at Oxford; and was subsequently chosen to be tutor to
Prince Edward of Windsor, afterwards Edward III. . .
It is noteworthy that during his stay at Avignon,
probably in 1330, he made the acquaintance of Petrarch,
who has left us a brief account of their intercourse. In 1332
Richard visited Cambridge, as one of the King's commissioners, to
inquire into the state of the King's Scholars there, and perhaps
then became a member of the Gild of St. Mary--one of the two
gilds which founded Corpus Christi College.
(c)HRIST.MA. <=> MITHRAS
-----------------------------------------------------
C(o)M (e d i e s)
H I S T (o r i e s)
(t) R A (g e d i e s)
-----------------------------------------------------------
4) Mithras' companion Cautopates traditionally
holds an INVERTED TORCH:
--------------------------------------------------------
Peter Farey wrote:
<<In Act II Scene 2 of Pericles, when the four Knights are
presenting their 'devices' at the lists, the fourth one has
"A burning torch that’s turnéd upside down.
The word, Qui me alit me extinguit.">>
<<in the Introduction to Charles Nicholl's 'The Reckoning', when
referring to the putative portrait of Christopher Marlowe in
Corpus Christi, Cambridge. He says:
"There is also the motto, inscribed in the top left-hand
corner of the portrait: 'Quod me nutrit me destruit'.
'That which nourishes me also destroys me.'
This is a popular Elizabethan motto, more usually written
'Quod me alit me extinguit'. In the emblem-books of the day
the device or *impresa* associated with it was
a burning torch turned upside-down:
An amorous gentleman of Milan bare in his standard a torch
figured burning and turning downward, whereby the melting
wax, falling in great abundance, quencheth the flame; with
this posy thereunto: Quod me alit me extinguit.
This particular description appears in Samuel Daniel's
emblem-book, 'The Worthy Tract of Paulus Jovius', which was
published in 1585, the year the portrait was painted.>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.marlowe-society.org/
>
> This portrait, generally believed to be of Christopher Marlowe, was
> found at Corpus Christi College, where he studied , and is inscribed (in
> the top left hand corner)
> with his age, the date and his motto:-
>
> ANNO DNI .. AETATIS SVAE 21 .. 1585 .. QVOD ME NVTRIT ME DESTRVIT
>
> Aged 21 in 1585, his motto: That which nourishes me destroys me
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Geralyn Horton wrote:
> > > > [Anne] died in 1623 and was buried near,
> > > > but not in, Will's, her stone inscribed
> > > > w/ Latin "Ubera, tu mater...".
---------------------------------------------------------
> Elizabeth Weir wrote:
>
> > I looked up "ubera" at Perseus. The two possible translations
> > shown--lactation or fertility--are contingent on diacritical marks.
> > Ubera was used by Saint Brigette to mean lactation-
> > -Jesus between the breasts of Mary.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Susanna Shakespeare Hall: (May 26, 1583 - July 11, 1649)
Susan Vere Herbert: (May 26, 1587 - Feb. 1, 1629)
+ 222
--------------
_Frankenstein_ Author Mary Shelley dies Feb. 1, 1851
------------------------------------------------------------------
Romeo and Juliet Act 1, Scene 3
Nurse Even or odd, of all days in the year,
Come Lammas-eve at night shall she be fourteen.
Susan and she--God rest all Christian souls!--
Were of an age: well, Susan is with God;
She was too good for me: but, as I said,
On Lammas-eve at night shall she be fourteen;
That shall she, marry; I remember it well.
'Tis since the earthquake now eleven years;
And she was wean'd,--I never shall forget it,--
------------------------------------------------------------
Transfiguration(/OLD LAMMAS) Day Aug.6
"Nosey" Parker [Archb. of Cant.] born Aug.6, 1504
Thomas Trussell commits highway robbery Aug.6, 1585
Armada prevented from Dutch reinforcement Aug.6, 1588
Rutland released from Tower Aug.6, 1601
Sonnets 1609
Jonson Folio/ Shake. death 1616
Anne Hath. death Aug.6, 1623
William Herbert death 1630
Jonson death Aug.6, 1637
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/virtualtour/detour_biographies_parker.shtml
<<Parker holds a central place in the political and ecclesiastical
history of England and in that of the College. He was born in Norwich on
August 6th 1504 and came to Corpus as student, being ordained in 1527.
He became chaplain to Henry VIII in 1538, and was recommended to
Corpus as its new Master by Henry in 1544. The original letter of
recommendation in the King's own handwriting still lies in the Parker
library at Corpus. Having praised Parker's virtues, the Kings
recommendation was something few people would dissent from and Parker
was duly made Head of House. Both Corpus the University were in great
need of a capable administrative and politically sensitive talent at
this time, both of which skills Parker had in abundance; Henry had acted
wisely. He became Vice-Chancellor of the University in 1545 and again in
1549, but then under Queen Mary retired from public life to Norfolk and
was deprived of his livings, retreating for some time to Frankfurt in
Germany.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ARCHBISHOP PARKER’S CONSECRATION.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/orders/orders1.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<<"In the beginning of King James his reigne there came out a book
under the name of Sanders with the story of the Nagg’s head ordination.
This book made a great noyse and was wonderfully cry’d up by the Roman
Catholics as sapping the whole reformation at once by destroying the
Episcopacy. This book was showed to King James and upon his reading of
it it stratled (sic) him. Upon this he cald his Privy Council and
showed it them and withal told em that he was a stranger among em and
knew nothing of the matter, and directing himself to the Archbishop who
was present My Lord, (says he) I hope you can prove and make good your
ordination for by my Sol, marry (sayes he) if this story be true we are
no church. The Archbishop replied that he had never heard the story
before, but did not question but he could detect the forgery of it, and
by examining the Lambeth register could prove Archbishop Parker’s
ordination. Att another Privy Council upon the same account the old
Earle of Nottinghame was present, and when ‘twas debated the old Earle
stood up and told the King and Council he could give them full
satisfaction as to that matter upon his own personal knowledge, for
(says he) Archbishop Parker’s ordination made a great noyse about towne
that he was to be ordained on such a day in Lambeth Chappel which
drew a great deale of company thither, and out of curiosity I went
thither myself and was present at his ordination, and he was ordained
by the form in King Edward’s Common Prayer Book. I myself (said he) had
the book in my hand all the time and went along with the ordination,
and when it was over I dined with em, and there was an instrument drawn
up of the form and order of it, which instrument I saw and read over.
Some time after (I being acquainted with the Archbishop and being at
Lambeth with him) he told me that he had sent that instrument to Corpus
Christi College in Cambridge to be laid up in their Library in
perpetuam rei memoriam, and sayes the old Earle, I believe it may be in
the Library still if your majesty please to have it searched for.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Neuendorffer
> > I was replying to Neuendorffer's post on Oxford's mythical
> > genealogy. Neuendorffer uses a sort of Joycean non-linear
> > logic.
"David L. Webb" wrote:
> It's certainly "nonlinear." Whether it is "Joycean" is open to
> question, but it certainly is not "logic."
hlas posts are made by fools like me,
but only Webb can make a mulberry tree.
> > That isn't like a syllogism. I'd like to see you argue
> > with Neuendorffer and do any better.
>
> Art is just trolling for his own amusement (and affording the rest
> of us some entertainment thereby), so there's little point in arguing
> seriously with him. However, to the extent that he ever says anything
> coherent and substantive (which occurs very rarely), his conclusions
> and even his assertions of fact have been shown to be farcically false
> countless times. That's how he earned the name ph...@errors.comedy.
His mouth is stopped, with half his songs unsung;
His arm is still, that struck to make men free.
But let no cloud of lamentation be
Where, on a warrior's grave, a lyre is hung.
We keep the echoes of his golden tongue,
We keep the vision of his chivalry.
Art Neuendorffer
John W. Kennedy
> =======
> Lord Burford believes that the hereditary peers are the defenders of
> the
> nation's spirituality. In fact, he thinks some of them are actually
> descended from Christ's British disciples.
>
> "Jesus visited England before he began his ministry in Palestine with
> his
> uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, who had tin mining rights in Cornwall. He
> spent a lot of time here and set up a mission with 12 anchorites who
> became the basis of the Knights of the Round Table," he says. "Jesus
> was
> the origin of chivalry and the purpose of nobility was to nurture
> these
> spiritual ideals."
To give him his due, it's an authentic legend in Glastonbury, and made
up of authentic medieval Arthurian material.
David L. Webb
<tl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[...]
> > In article <3B0005D4...@erols.com>, Neuendorffer <ph...@erols.com>
> > (ph...@errors.comedy) wrote:
> <snip>
> > > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
> > >
> > > Richard42 Neville
> > > (Richard41 Nevill,
> > > Joan Beaufort40 ,
> > > John Of Gaunt39,
> > > Edward Iii38,
> > > Edward Ii37,
> > > Edward I (Longshanks)36,
> > So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
> Art has obviously been corresponding with Lord Burford. Here is an
> excerpt from a Daily Telegraph article Terry posted here some time
> back (ahh, the glories of the restored deja/google usenet archive):
>
> =======
> Lord Burford believes that the hereditary peers are the defenders of
> the
> nation's spirituality. In fact, he thinks some of them are actually
> descended from Christ's British disciples.
>
>
> "Jesus visited England before he began his ministry in Palestine with
> his
> uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, who had tin mining rights in Cornwall.
Thus Oxford's futile efforts to wheedle tin mining concessions were
actually an attempt to regain his patrimony! That explains everything!
> He
> spent a lot of time here and set up a mission with 12 anchorites who
> became the basis of the Knights of the Round Table," he says. "Jesus
> was
> the origin of chivalry and the purpose of nobility was to nurture
> these
> spiritual ideals."
> ========
>
>
> The entire article (a great read) is at
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=burford+terry+woolsack&hl=en&lr=&group=human
> ities.lit.authors.shakespeare&safe=off&rnum=3&ic=1&selm=Pine.GSO.4.10.9911140744030.9741-100000%40mail.bcpl.net
Thanks for reposting this link. It is indeed a great read!
David Webb
Neuendorffer
> > > > http://www.hials.no/~hy/_gen/j/d1/i0006886.htm#i6909
> > > >
> > > > Richard42 Neville
> > > > (Richard41 Nevill,
> > > > Joan Beaufort40 ,
> > > > John Of Gaunt39,
> > > > Edward Iii38,
> > > > Edward Ii37,
> > > > Edward I (Longshanks)36,
>
> > > So Edward I is a lineal descendant of Jesus, Art? Jesus, Art!
Tom Lay <tl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Art has obviously been corresponding with Lord Burford. Here is an
> > excerpt from a Daily Telegraph article Terry posted here some time
> > back (ahh, the glories of the restored deja/google usenet archive):
> >
> > =======
> > Lord Burford believes that the hereditary peers are the defenders of
> > the
> > nation's spirituality. In fact, he thinks some of them are actually
> > descended from Christ's British disciples.
> >
> >
> > "Jesus visited England before he began his ministry in Palestine with
> > his
> > uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, who had tin mining rights in Cornwall.
"David L. Webb" wrote:
>
> Thus Oxford's futile efforts to wheedle tin mining concessions were
> actually an attempt to regain his patrimony! That explains everything!
Wherefore art thou, Dadeo?
> > He
> > spent a lot of time here and set up a mission with 12 anchorites who
> > became the basis of the Knights of the Round Table," he says. "Jesus
>> was the origin of chivalry and the purpose of nobility was to nurture
> > these spiritual ideals."
> > ========
> > The entire article (a great read) is at
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=burford+terry+woolsack&hl=en&lr=&group=humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare&safe=off&rnum=3&ic=1&selm=Pine.GSO.4.10.9911140744030.9741-100000%40mail.bcpl.net
>
> Thanks for reposting this link. It is indeed a great read!
Now . . . if you only had a heart.
Art Neuendorffer