A genuine quote from Cicero?

[Frederick Williams]

Sent to someone else and forwarded:

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
of living on public assistance."

- Cicero , 55 BC

Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?

--
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by
this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift: Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting

[Ed Cryer]

Frederick Williams wrote:
> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>
> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
> of living on public assistance."
>
> - Cicero , 55 BC
>
> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>

Very, very unlikely. Certainly not in English. May be a free
representation of some original Latin.
Do you have mention of any particular speech or book of C's?

Ed

[Richard Tobin]

In article <513A7674...@btinternet.com>,

Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
>debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
>and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
>of living on public assistance."

If you google for (a fragment of) it, you will find many discussions
on the subject.

-- Richard

[John W Kennedy]

On 2013-03-09 17:14:40 +0000, Peter J Ross said:

> In humanities.classics on Fri, 08 Mar 2013 23:38:28 +0000, Frederick

> Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>>
>> "The budget should be balanced,
>

> 1. I don't think there was any conception of balancing a budget in
> Cicero's time.

>
>> the Treasury should be refilled,
>

> 2. It was certainly considered a good thing for the public treasury to
> be full (preferably of the spoils of war).

>
>> public debt should be reduced,
>

> 3. Public debt, in the sense of regular long-term loans to the
> government by the citizens, was unknown in Cicero's time.

>
>> the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled,
>

> 4. I could easily believe this to be a quotation from the Verrine
> Orations.

>
>> and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>

> 5. The Romans didn't give assistance to foreign lands unless there was
> some obvious military benefit to themselves, such as protection of a
> frontier.

>
>> lest Rome will become bankrupt.
>

> 6. The concept of bankruptcy was unknown in antiquity.

>
>> People must again learn to work instead of living on public
>> assistance."
>

> 7. The handouts to the urban populace of Rome ("bread and circuses")
> were certainly regarded as a bad thing in later years. I think it was
> the Gracchi who started them, so Cicero might well have objected.

>
>> - Cicero , 55 BC
>>
>> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>

> I think it's inconceivable for him to have written all of it.
>
> Out of the seven sections of the alleged quotation that I've numbered,
> at most three might conceivably have been said by an ancient Greek or
> Roman, of which one sounds vaguely Ciceronian to me. The other four
> are impossible.

It's amazine what anachronisms people will swallow. Just yesterday I
came across something attributed to Socrates that used the word
"energy" (in the sense somewhere between "effort" and "chi"), and
rhetorically assumed that "change" (i.e., what is called "social
progress") is an intrinsic good. Turned out that the "Socrates" in
question is an auto mechanic/guru in some 1990s "new age" novel. It was
only a week or two ago I saw a "quotation" from Abraham Lincoln
espousing the cause of "animal rights", and I can't count the times
I've seen arguments turning on the unspoken assumption that Shakespeare
was a Whig.

--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"

[John Briggs]

On 08/03/2013 23:38, Frederick Williams wrote:
> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>
> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
> of living on public assistance."
>
> - Cicero , 55 BC
>
> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?

Put it this way: the notorious Petronius quote was traced to "Merrill's
Marauders".

If it sounds 20th/21st century, it almost certainly is.

It's worth checking to see if this quote has its own Wikipedia page.
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

It's an improvement over those who think he's a Tory...
--
John Briggs

[Frederick Williams]

Frederick Williams wrote:
>
> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>
> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
> of living on public assistance."
>
> - Cicero , 55 BC
>
> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?

Thank you for all replies. 'twas as I thought.

[Frederick Williams]

Ed Cryer wrote:
>
> Frederick Williams wrote:
> > Sent to someone else and forwarded:
> >
> > "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
> > debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
> > and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
> > lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
> > of living on public assistance."
> >
> > - Cicero , 55 BC
> >
> > Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
> >
>
> Very, very unlikely. Certainly not in English.

Sorry, I meant something like: "Is it an English translation of
something Cicero wrote or said?"

> May be a free
> representation of some original Latin.
> Do you have mention of any particular speech or book of C's?

[John Briggs]

On 10/03/2013 15:23, Frederick Williams wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Frederick Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>>>
>>> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
>>> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
>>> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>>> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
>>> of living on public assistance."
>>>
>>> - Cicero , 55 BC
>>>
>>> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>>
>> Very, very unlikely. Certainly not in English.
>
> Sorry, I meant something like: "Is it an English translation of
> something Cicero wrote or said?"

Then you have to consider what it might be a translation of.
--
John Briggs

[Ed Cryer]

Frederick Williams wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>>
>> Frederick Williams wrote:
>>> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>>>
>>> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
>>> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
>>> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>>> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
>>> of living on public assistance."
>>>
>>> - Cicero , 55 BC
>>>
>>> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>>>
>>
>> Very, very unlikely. Certainly not in English.
>
> Sorry, I meant something like: "Is it an English translation of
> something Cicero wrote or said?"
>

No, certainly not. There's inherent in the English the concept of a
"state" with its budget, public deficit, national currency in the world
market etc.
In Cicero's day most public displays were "munera" ("gifts" from private
individuals). The vast wealth pouring into Rome went into the private
pockets of individuals, and they doled out "munera" to the plebs to keep
them sweet. You could become a multi-millionaire by conquering some
territory, enslaving large numbers, carrying off national treasures
(just as Lord Elgin later carried off the Parthenon marbles, and
Napoleon looted Italy and put all those paintings into museums in Paris).

It is possible to do what you might call "trans-cultural" translations;
shifting old concepts into a modern framework. That's about the best you
could hope for with the above "quote".

Ed

[William C Waterhouse]

On 03/10/2013 11:20 AM, Frederick Williams wrote:
> Frederick Williams wrote:
>>
>> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>>
>> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
>> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
>> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
>> of living on public assistance."
>>
>> - Cicero , 55 BC
>>
>> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>
> Thank you for all replies. 'twas as I thought.
>

This comes from Taylor Caldwell�s _A Pillar of Iron_, a fictional
account in which Cicero is the main character.

[Ed Cryer]

William C Waterhouse wrote:
> On 03/10/2013 11:20 AM, Frederick Williams wrote:
>> Frederick Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> Sent to someone else and forwarded:
>>>
>>> "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
>>> debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
>>> and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed,
>>> lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead
>>> of living on public assistance."
>>>
>>> - Cicero , 55 BC
>>>
>>> Now it's rather amusing I agree, but did Cicero write it?
>>
>> Thank you for all replies. 'twas as I thought.
>>
>

> This comes from Taylor Caldwell’s _A Pillar of Iron_, a fictional

> account in which Cicero is the main character.

I can't find it in there.

Show us.
http://tinyurl.com/a8xbbp6

Ed

[John Briggs]

It's supposed to be on page 483 - have you looked there?
--
John Briggs

[Ed Cryer]

Do you mean the page that begins "It is always the same world", muttered
Tullius."

Ed

[John Briggs]

I've no idea - what does the rest of the page say?
--
John Briggs