Re: Perfect Passive Third Person Imperative in Latin

[Ed Cryer]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> Is there any way of expressing the perfect passive third person
> imperative in Latin?
>
> I think "let him have been washed" is λελούσθω in Greek, which tends
> to mean something more emphatic that the ordinary present or aorist
> imperatives, such as "Arrange for him/her to be washed so well that
> he/she could be confused with somebody who was already clean".
>
> But what I want is not necessarily the subtle emphasis, just the
> grammatically correct equivalent.
>
> Perhaps the Latin equivalent would be "lautus sit" or "lavatus sit"?
> The Internet confirms that these are correct subjunctive forms, but
> are they usable as imperatives?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help, and please excuse my ignorance.
> Nowadays my recollections of Latin are limited to the Breviary and the
> Missal. "Lavabis me et super nivem dealbabor."
>
>

I should think that's about as close as you could get. "Lavator"
(present tense) would be something like "let him be washed".
"Lavatus est" = "he was washed" ie "he is now in the state of having
been washed".
"Dixit eum lavatum esse" = "he said the man had been washed".
From these two your "lavatus sit" would follow.

Romans who spoke fluent Greek (especially the poets) had trouble trying
to render some forms of Greek verbs into Latin. The middle voice gave
particular problems. Vergil was fond of past participles of normally
active verbs taking an accusative object. Things like;
Flores inscripti nomina regum
Crines ornatus
Percussa mentem
They used to be explained as "accusative of respect"; flowers inscribed
as to the names of kings", "well tended as to his locks". But many would
claim that the verbs are used with a middle voice intention.

Ed

[Johannes Patruus]

"genus" in the following Ambrosian stanza is described as an "accusative
of respect or specification" -

Victor, Nabor, Felix, pii
Mediolani martyres,
solo hospites, Mauri genus,
terrisque nostris advenae.

Victor, Nabor, Felix, all three
devoted martyrs at Milan,
guests to our soil, Moorish by race,
and strangers to these realms of ours.

(tr. Walsh)

Patruus

[Ed Cryer]

"Mauri genere".

This reminds me of my English teacher at school; "an Americanism, don't
use it". But we kids used it; it was cool.
So then Greek didn't have an ablative case, so it used the accusative
for such constructions. And I guess that sounded cool; perhaps a bit
more than "cool" to early Christians for whom the Gospels were the word
of God. And they were written in Greek.

It's still with us. Whenever I think of the Bible I hear it all in the
language of the King James version. "Verily I say unto you.." "And it
came to pass".

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> In humanities.classics on Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:42:48 +0000, Ed Cryer

> <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>
>> Peter J Ross wrote:
>>> Is there any way of expressing the perfect passive third person
>>> imperative in Latin?
>>>
>>> I think "let him have been washed" is λελούσθω in Greek, which tends
>>> to mean something more emphatic that the ordinary present or aorist
>>> imperatives, such as "Arrange for him/her to be washed so well that
>>> he/she could be confused with somebody who was already clean".
>>>
>>> But what I want is not necessarily the subtle emphasis, just the
>>> grammatically correct equivalent.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Latin equivalent would be "lautus sit" or "lavatus sit"?
>>> The Internet confirms that these are correct subjunctive forms, but
>>> are they usable as imperatives?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any help, and please excuse my ignorance.
>>> Nowadays my recollections of Latin are limited to the Breviary and the
>>> Missal. "Lavabis me et super nivem dealbabor."
>>
>> I should think that's about as close as you could get. "Lavator"
>> (present tense) would be something like "let him be washed".
>> "Lavatus est" = "he was washed" ie "he is now in the state of having
>> been washed".
>> "Dixit eum lavatum esse" = "he said the man had been washed".
>> From these two your "lavatus sit" would follow.
>

> Thank you. Thanks also for the crosspost to alt.language.latin, a
> newsgroup where I have no history of helping other people and
> therefore didn't want to ask for help.

>
>> Romans who spoke fluent Greek (especially the poets) had trouble trying
>> to render some forms of Greek verbs into Latin. The middle voice gave
>> particular problems. Vergil was fond of past participles of normally
>> active verbs taking an accusative object. Things like;
>> Flores inscripti nomina regum
>> Crines ornatus
>> Percussa mentem
>

> One day, I'll read Virgil. Today, I'm reading Solon, and I have
> Theognis and his imitators to look forward to next week. In my
> approximately chronological reading of classical texts, Virgil is
> hundreds of years ahead, but can you imagine what fun I'll have
> starting his first Eclogue after having read *all* earlier poetry
> that's survived?

>
>> They used to be explained as "accusative of respect"; flowers inscribed
>> as to the names of kings", "well tended as to his locks". But many would
>> claim that the verbs are used with a middle voice intention.
>

> The participles seem to be used as if they were gerundives, i.e.
> adjectives that have something verb-like about them that enables them
> to take a direct object.
>
> Fans of Latin can take consolation for Latin's lack of a middle voice
> from Greek's lack of a gerund or gerundive.
>

You might have trouble when you move from Greek poetry to Greek prose.

This from Plato;
γυμνωτέος δὴ πάντων πλὴν δικαιοσύνης
καὶ ποιητέος ἐναντίως διακείμενος τῷ προτέρῳ·

and this from Demosthenes;
πᾶσίν ἐςτι ποιητέον·

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> In humanities.classics on Sun, 03 Mar 2013 17:43:26 +0000, Ed Cryer

> <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>
>> Peter J Ross wrote:
>

> <...>

>
>>> Fans of Latin can take consolation for Latin's lack of a middle voice
>>> from Greek's lack of a gerund or gerundive.
>>
>> You might have trouble when you move from Greek poetry to Greek prose.
>>
>> This from Plato;
>> γυμνωτέος δὴ πάντων πλὴν δικαιοσύνης
>> καὶ ποιητέος ἐναντίως διακείμενος τῷ προτέρῳ·
>

> "Indeed he must be stripped bare of all things except of
> righteousness, and placed in a situation opposite to the former."
>
>> and this from Demosthenes; πᾶσίν ἐστι ποιητέον·
>
> "It must be done by all."
>
> I can proudly say that I had little trouble with either of those. My
> Greek prose is much improved as a result of finding many brief
> quotations of poetry surrounded by the prose of Plutarch, Athenaeus,
> etc in the edition I'm using.
>
> Also Euripides: Οἰστέον τάδε. ("These things must be endured.")
>
> OK, I suppose those are gerundives, though I was taught to call them
> "verbal adjectives", and the word "gerundive" is unknown to Goodwin's
> Greek Grammar.
>
> There's still no Greek gerund, is there?
>
>

Ποιητέα μέν νυν ταῦτά ἐστι οὕτω.
(Herodotus)

θαυμάζω τί δήποτε σαυτῷ μὲν ὑπὲρ τούτων ἅπαντα ποιητέον εἶναι
νομίζεις καὶ πονητέον καὶ κινδυνευτέον
(Demosthenes)

I think the second construction is more common in classical Greek. But
just what a grammarian would call ποιητέον is beyond me. It is,
however, equivalent to δεῖ ποιῆσαι.
I tend to think of it as a gerund (in Latin "faciendum est haec" as
opposed to "haec sunt facienda").

Ed