"The beginning of reform is not so much to equalize property as to train the noble sort of natures not to desire more, and to prevent the lower from getting more."

[greg lee]

Does what Aristotle said in POLITICS have something to do with present
day global efforts to contain the development of nuclear weapons?

[greg lee]

On Apr 1, 10:56 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In humanities.classics on Sun, 31 Mar 2013 02:07:39 -0700 (PDT), greg

>
> lee wrote:
> > Does what Aristotle said in POLITICS have something to do with present
> > day global efforts to contain the development of nuclear weapons?
>

> After a few hours' thought:
>
> No.

But wouldn't the Iranians say that it does?

[Ed Cryer]

It certainly wouldn't apply to revolutionary politics. The Liberty,
Equality, Fraternity of the French Revolution doesn't seem covered.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> In humanities.classics on Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:28:15 +0100, Peter J Ross
> wrote:
>
>> By the way, do you have a source reference for the quotation? It looks
>> thoroughly Aristotelian to me, but I'd like to compare it with the
>> Greek text.
>
> Don't worry, I've found it.
>
> "τῶν οὖν τοιούτων ἀρχή, μᾶλλον τοῦ τὰς οὐσίας ὁμαλίζειν, τὸ τοὺς μὲν
> ἐπιεικεῖς τῇ φύσει τοιούτους παρασκευάζειν ὥστε μὴ βούλεσθαι
> πλεονεκτεῖν, τοὺς δὲ φαύλους ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι."
> - Politics, Book 2 (1276b)
>
> The translation seems accurate, but I'm no expert on the great man's
> style.
>
>

I'm not sure about ἐπιεικεῖς τῇ φύσει translated as "noble natures". It
sounds decidedly class-ridden. I'd go for "naturally competent".

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

greg lee wrote:
> Does what Aristotle said in POLITICS have something to do with present
> day global efforts to contain the development of nuclear weapons?
>

Aristotle's most famous student was Alexander of Macedon. I would think
it highly likely that Aristotle (with his opinion of Greek language and
culture far surpassing any in the "barbarian" world) would have loudly
proclaimed how marvellous it would be to see a Greek army back on Asian
soil.
Now, Alexander crossed the Dardanelles with about 50,00 infantry and
6,000 cavalry; plus a fleet to patrol the coast. But at Issus he was
outnumbered by Persian forces at about 8 to 1, at Gaugamela about 5 to
1; and he won both battles quite decisively. He used infantry in phalanx
formation armed with a sarissa (long pike) to hold the enemy forces in
place while the cavalry broke them down from the side.
He had neither WMDs nor superior forces. He did it using superior strategy.

Aristotle would have seen that as "virtuous"; manly, courageous,
life-affirming, good in itself. A man proved himself on the battle-field.

If I'd said to Aristotle "Let's nuke the buggers back to the stone-age,
and then move in and mop up", I feel that he would have shuddered at the
very idea; and called it cowardly and rat-like.

The patron goddess of Athens was Athena, sister on Olympus of Phoebus
Apollo. And the values that you might call "Apollinian" require things
done in the light of day, open for all to see, on a field where human
excellence has its chance to be seen. The poets' god.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> In humanities.classics on Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:04:36 +0100, Ed Cryer
> wrote:
>
>> Aristotle
>
> Incidentally, have you read Margaret Doody's detective stories in
> which Aristotle solves crimes in 4th century Athens, occasionally
> assisted or hampered by his naive friend Stephanos and his pedantic
> pupil Theophrastos?
>
> They're the most enjoyable, and also the most educational, novels set
> in the ancient world that I've ever read. I'd be surprised if you
> diodn't love them.
>

I've heard of them but never read one.
Which one would you recommend?

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

greg lee wrote:
> Does what Aristotle said in POLITICS have something to do with present
> day global efforts to contain the development of nuclear weapons?
>

In our modern world we have various ideologies and political goals that
were foreign to Aristotle.
Take, for example, "All men are created equal". Aristotle believed in
natural slaves.
Take the socialist ideology of society moulded by class struggles of
vested interests. There's no sign of that in Aristotle's writings.
Or take the Hegelian dialectical pattern of thesis-antithesis-synthesis.
Absolutely foreign to Aristotelian logic. Which puts Marxist dialectical
materialism out of his view.

Many emergent empires in the past have gone to war on the mere pretext
that the enemy will benefit from the imposition of their culture, their
religion, their higher view of things.
The Romans, the Conquistadores in the New World (impose Christianity),
the British etc.

Ask yourself this question; Could any western power justify a war today
with such an argument?
I'd say no. But ask yourself again; Could any western power vindicate a
war today to impose "democracy"?
Hhhhmm! I think so.
Then ask yourself the final question in my trinity of questions; What is
the difference between "imposing democracy" and "imposing our culture
and values"?

Ed

[greg lee]

Wouldn't the N. Koreans say that the P5 are heeding Aristotle's
words?:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/15318-next-stop-a-ban-on-nuclear-weapons