Meaning of some nicknames
keyu...@navy.plala.or.jp
century:Ademarus Mala Capsa Juvenis and Airaldus Quassens denarium.
Would you please teach me their meaning ?
Ed Cryer
<keyu...@navy.plala.or.jp> wrote in message
news:c8386bf2-fcbc-45d3...@v8g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> There are the following nicknames in some document of the 11th
> century:Ademarus Mala Capsa Juvenis and Airaldus Quassens denarium.
> Would you please teach me their meaning ?
Young Adémar with his bad bookcase.
Airaldus tossing his penny.
Ed
ozandy
news:g74h2b$40f$1...@aioe.org...
Hmm. Nicknames, especially mediaeval ones, are hard to translate. My guess
is that these were vernacular names latinised in an amusing way. You can't
be sure that the exact classical meaning is intended, or if the meaning is
that of the equivalent word in the vernacular. The 'bad bookcase'
translation which Ed gives, while literally correct for classical latin, is
unconvincing. Bad in what sense?
To tell the truth, with respect to the penny, I can't find any classical use
of 'quassens' in the sense of tossing, but Ed knows much more than I do on
this. As far as I can see, it means shaking or shattering, which was also
the meaning of 'casser' in Old French. Perhaps the reference is rather to
somone who jingled coins in his pocket (shake) or to a wastrel who shattered
his savings. Note that in the vernaculars, capsa/cassa/casse meant any kind
of case or box, not just a book-case, as it did in classical latin. In
provençale a similar word (cassa) meant (frying) pan (cf French casserole).
Even so, the joke is hard to see. Perhaps if there is some connection
between the two persons, the joke may be that his money-box is bad, just as
the other guy might be a wastrel.
As I said, my guess is that these were vernacular names latinised in an
amusing way. I'm assuming these people are otherwise unknown, but this
should be checked of course. I note that there is a Chateau Malecasse in
Bordeaux, which may derive from a person's name, or a name may derive from
it. This could be latinised to Mala Capsa. And I find Cassedenier in a
French list of patronyms. (http://patro.cybergenealogie.com/_c5.php), which
could be latinised to "quasset denarium" and, I suppose, even "quassens
denarium". If we were doing serious research we could look at historical
names in the region (which I assume from the names Ademarus and Airaldus is
France) to see if you can find any that fit (like Malecasse and
Cassedenier). That might throw some more light on the subject. As usual,
though, more of the text might help clarify the matter.
Andy
Ed Cryer
"ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote in message
news:pe2mk.218$ZV1.207@trnddc07...
> "Ed Cryer" <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:g74h2b$40f$1...@aioe.org...
>>
>> <keyu...@navy.plala.or.jp> wrote in message
>> news:c8386bf2-fcbc-45d3...@v8g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>>> There are the following nicknames in some document of the 11th
>>> century:Ademarus Mala Capsa Juvenis and Airaldus Quassens denarium.
>>> Would you please teach me their meaning ?
>>
>>
>> Airaldus tossing his penny.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
> Hmm. Nicknames, especially mediaeval ones, are hard to translate. My
> guess is that these were vernacular names latinised in an amusing way.
> You can't be sure that the exact classical meaning is intended, or if
> the meaning is that of the equivalent word in the vernacular. The 'bad
> bookcase' translation which Ed gives, while literally correct for
> classical latin, is unconvincing. Bad in what sense?
>
> To tell the truth, with respect to the penny, I can't find any
> classical use of 'quassens' in the sense of tossing, but Ed knows much
> more than I do on this. As far as I can see, it means shaking or
> shattering, which was also the meaning of 'casser' in Old French.
> Perhaps the reference is rather to somone who jingled coins in his
> pocket (shake) or to a wastrel who shattered his savings. Note that in
> the vernaculars, capsa/cassa/casse meant any kind of case or box, not
> joke is hard to see. Perhaps if there is some connection between the
> two persons, the joke may be that his money-box is bad, just as the
> other guy might be a wastrel.
>
> As I said, my guess is that these were vernacular names latinised in
> an amusing way. I'm assuming these people are otherwise unknown, but
> this should be checked of course. I note that there is a Chateau
> Malecasse in Bordeaux, which may derive from a person's name, or a
> name may derive from it. This could be latinised to Mala Capsa. And I
> find Cassedenier in a French list of patronyms.
> (http://patro.cybergenealogie.com/_c5.php), which could be latinised
> to "quasset denarium" and, I suppose, even "quassens denarium". If we
> were doing serious research we could look at historical names in the
> region (which I assume from the names Ademarus and Airaldus is France)
> to see if you can find any that fit (like Malecasse and Cassedenier).
> That might throw some more light on the subject. As usual, though,
> more of the text might help clarify the matter.
>
> Andy
>
I make the distinction between good Latin and bad Latin rather than
classical and any other kind. You'll find that even during the great
classical age of Rome there was bad Latin around.
"Quatio" and "quasso" (present participle of the latter being
"quassans"). "Shake" or "brandish". The object can be anything from
"head" to "weapon". Neptune "quatit" the earth with his trident; a
warrior "quassat" his spear.
Bad Latin (Vulgate Latin) became popular with the Word of God translated
into it. But even so you'll find that St. Jerome used very good Latin
in his letters. Similarly with St Augustine later who quotes from the
Vulgate constantly, but often writes with the good style of a Cicero (he
was a teacher of rhetoric early in his career).
In the Middle Ages there was good Latin too. Erasmus, Bede, Thomas
Aquinas, Abelard. Many still used even accusative + inf. construction.
Ed