--- In w...@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, November 07, 2009 at 22:37, yuval_levy wrote:
>
> > my opinion about that specific installer:
> >
> >
http://panospace.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/hugin-2009-2-0-windows-installer/
>
> I think hugin distribution politics is far from the high quality of
> the software.
Erik, If you think you can do better, go ahead and do it. You have all
the necessary information, tools, and accesses to distribute Hugin
differently.
Frankly I am annoyed. I know we have *different* views. I respect your
opinion. I do not accept your qualitative judgment. Have you done
anything better? Have you done anything at all other than criticizing?
There is no *politics* in the Hugin distribution. There are facts:
1. The development team does not have the resources to consistently
produce binaries for distribution. The nature and composition of the
team changes continuously. Slowing development because of binary
distribution is unacceptable to me.
2. Users have *always* built and distributed the binaries. It will stay
so as long as the necessary resources are not consistently available to
the project. Resources = combination of hardware, skill, time.
This is true for MacOSX; for Ubuntu; for Fedora; for Gentoo; for
FreeBSD; and for any other system on which Hugin is known to work. Why
should Windows be treated any different? Or why should the development
team deal differently with binary distributions? So far I have not seen
one single convincing argument from you or others that are so interested
in binaries but are afraid to dip a toe in the water.
3. It was a user effort that brought about the documentation for other
users to build binaries for all platforms [1]. And the 0.7.0 Windows
installer [2] was (my) user effort as well. Without users contributing,
*nothing* happens.
4. A member of the development team *may* also be a user of a specific
platform. He *might* produce binaries at some point, but this does not
imply commitment or obligation to produce, maintain, distribute, neither
in the present nor in the future; neither for him nor for the rest of
the development team.
5. *Nobody* can tell anybody what to do with their time. If you think
something is not being done as it should be; and you feel that your
critique goes unheard, you are free to
a) do it yourself
b) ask nicely once or twice
c) hire somebody to do it
and if nobody (including you) does it, then probably it is not important
enough (not even to you). If you are not ready to invest your resources
to do this, how can you expect that others do?
I have stated my *personal* opinion about the currently circulated
Windows installer at [3]. Note that it is my *personal* opinion on my
*personal* blog. I have not imposed my opinion on the project, nor on
Allard, nor on Windows users. His stuff is up there on Sourceforge as
official download despite my opinion, and we agree to disagree.
When I make changes to the project, I put forward a motion and it is
decided by consensus or by majority. My voice is one of many.
You can discuss your wishful thinking as long as you want. Criticizing
is easier than doing. Critique is welcome when it brings new findings to
the table. The repetition, again and again, of the same old stale wish
is annoying; and the judgment by those who have not even tried to do
something is worth exactly as much as they have done.
I personally see no reason to invest my resources in a Windows installer
at this time. I think it is something important to have, and it will
come in due time. Other things have higher priority for me at the
moment. If others think differently, they can invest their resources to
what they think is their highest priority.
The beauty of Open Source is that there is no boss. I don't need to find
here the same constraints that I find when I am paid to do something for
a customer or for a boss in a corporate environment. When I am hired for
money I'll bend over; be a prostitute; play the politics. If asked to do
something that I deem futile, I'll do it with a smile and won't even
utter my opinion. That's called "day-job".
I am here on my "free-time", which is the opposite of "day-job". Here I
enjoy the freedom of doing what I want, when I want, how I want.
Here I enjoy being a "social learner". Learning from more experienced
others and passing on to less experienced new comers.
In the "free-time" context, if my byproduct is helpful to others, good
for them. If it is not, they will have to find other ways to satisfy
their wants/needs.
In the "day-job" context is the other way around. If I like what I'm
doing, good for me. If not, I'll have to find other ways to happiness,
because customer satisfaction and following the boss' orders are what
counts there.
There, not here.
Yuv
[0] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wwp/message/11790
[1]
http://wiki.panotools.org/Development_of_Open_Source_tools#Supported_Platforms
[2]
http://hugin.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/hugin/hugin/trunk/platforms/windows/installer/
[3]
http://panospace.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/hugin-2009-2-0-windows-installer/
I don't disagree with the qualification of the Win binary distribution.
I disagree with the judgment of what the developers team does.
> If you look at the number of downloads for v 0.7 then the Win
> downloads (224,774) are many more than the Mac (73,199) downloads. I
> don't think you can expect all those Win users to compile Hugin
> themselves. Very few would have the skills to do so. Win users just
> expect to have to download, then to run an installer and then to get
> on with using the software.
Agree that very few would have the skill to compile an installer. If
there is one in 73,199 that's just enough. Mac users have Harry (and a
few more that help him along). Statistically, shouldn't there be about
three in 224,774 that can do that?
Why do Win users like Erik (and apparently yourself) criticize the
developers? they should criticize those three Win power users amongst
themselves. If you look at the archives of this list, you will find more
than three Win users who in the past twelve months have obviously built
Hugin, often with answers/help from the developers. Ask them why they
don't release the result of their work in the way that you'd like it.
Why should Win users be different than Mac users? or Linux users? *all*
users just *wish* (*expecting* is arrogant in an Open Source context) to
download/install a binary and get on with using the software. The
difference is that 0.001% of Mac users raise up to the task. That's
enough to give all Mac users what they wish for. Ask Windows users why
nobody of them raise up to the task?
> And as you've pointed out on Panospace there is confusion about what
> is being included in releases. There is a need for strict control.
Control and Free software don't go well together.
Ultimate responsibility is with the user: know what you download and
from whom.
> will eventually become a nightmare if users start asking why something
> doesn't work and another says it does for the same apparent version.
From a developer perspective, Windows users are a nightmare anyway.
Most bug reports are incomplete. Since we no longer accept anonymous
ones, we get at least the chance to help them complete the bug reports.
In the end, most problems are on the user side, and very seldom a
problem of the installed binary.
> To me, GIMP seems much more professional in distribution of binaries.
<sarcasm>then what are you doing here? go there and use GIMP. Or ask the
GIMP team to release Hugin for you.</sarcasm>
Seriously - from [0]
"This site, www.gimp.org, only distributes the GIMP source code (the
building blocks). You can however download executable versions from the
following site:"
which points to [1] - a different project.
If you want to start [2], you have my blessing.
Yuv
[0] http://www.gimp.org/windows/
[1] http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://hugin-win.sourceforge.net/
> Erik, If you think you can do better, go ahead and do it. You have all
> the necessary information, tools, and accesses to distribute Hugin
> differently.
>
> Frankly I am annoyed. I know we have *different* views. I respect your
> opinion. I do not accept your qualitative judgment. Have you done
> anything better?
No. Why should I? Did you do anything better? You had only critics for
the recent windows distribution:
http://panospace.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/hugin-2009-2-0-windows-installer/
In my opinion this does far more harm to the hugin project than my
criticism (which only states a fact BTW). What you write in your blog
should be discussed internally and not mentioned in a public place where
someone asks for a stitcher recommendation.
How comes, that you criticize me for pointing out an insufficiency?
Reporting bugs should be honored not flamed like you do on me.
> Have you done anything at all other than criticizing?
No critics allowed? Fear of facts? Hugin is superb. The fact that I had
to wait for a year for a recent hugin distribution is annoying. And your
behavior against anyone who dares to say anything about hugin
distribution is more than annoying, it discredits the whole project.
[...]
For the rest of your sermon: Read again what I wrote: I didn't demand
anything, I didn't tell anyone what to do or what not. I even don't want
hugin for me. I support the hugin project with part of my time since I
think it's a good thing to support free software. But you don't make it
easy for me (and for others) to keep up this sympathy. And I fear others
aren't as patient as me.
Now look at what you did in your blog: You demanded something, you asked
for others time. Why do you measure yourself by different goals?
In other words and if you still didn't get it: I think you distract
people from using or even trying hugin.
And BTW.: I won't read any longish reply to that. If it is as short as
"I'm sorry", I will...
best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de
maybe he's right?
good bye everybody, have fun with your new leader Erik.
Yuv
> If anybody else wants to contribute by helping build the
> dependencies, for example, please do!
I would like to participate here. Is there a homepage or a repository
where your current work is accessible?
With kind regards
Stefan Peter
There is an ongoing discussion in the free software community regarding
the wisdom of porting free software to windows. Some take the position
that it hinders the goals of free software, others think it helps to
spread the word. However, it is very clear for all of us that they can
not claim a right to be served with binaries, installers and support.
Of course, if windows users stand up and start to tackle this problem,
they will find help on this list.
Regards
Stefan Peter
Erik Krause wrote:
>> As the 90% windows users do not seem to scratch, they do not feel the
>> itch. So why should others do the scratching for them?
>
> That's not the point. The point is that after a long time someone
> finally created a binary for windows and the self-appointed leader of
> this list has nothing better to do than distracting people by stating
> that he "doesn't endorse this installer" - in a place where someone
> asked for recommended stitching software. This is bad politics.
>
Sorry, it was not me who brought this discussion here. And it was Yuv
who was "annoyed" and accused me of demanding things, which is totally
nonsense in this case. I didn't demand anything, I expressed my
disappointment with the politics regarding windows binaries.
There was no point to bring the "If you want to have binaries, compile
them yourself" sermon again.
And this "Contribute something before
criticizing" sermon is plainly silly and ignorant.
Why do you guys make it so hard for someone to simply test or recommend
hugin? Why this raised forefinger and this teacher's attitude all the
time about what open source software is and what not? Don't you see that
this sounds arrogant? Even worse: It might sound as if hugin developers
don't want and don't like their users.
But most windows users (me included) won't go through the hardships of
compiling hugin to supply a bug report. And if I supply bug reports I
want to do it for a software "as is", not for something where I don't
know whether I introduced the bugs myself...
Just the simple fact that nobody takes the initiative to come forward as volunteer is disappointing.
Again: thanks to those who already did a great job in building windows binaries. It's just that there are obviously not enough builders.
regards,
Harry
Okay, before people start speculating about how I feel about Yuv's
comments on my installer or grossly misspelling my name (en dat van
een landgenoot, Harry!) maybe I should step in.
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- What about 32-bit and 64-bit binaries? They *are* different, they *do*
have different build steps and, while their dependencies are the same,
actually resolving those dependencies requires quite a few different steps.
For Linux and Mac this is much easier, but on a platform like Windows, with
a build system like CMake, a compiler like MSVC, and a (justifiable) policy
of static linking, this is a whole new set of challenges.