No Hugin 0.8 for Windows?
Flo
I just wandet to make sure: Is there no official Windows version of
Hugin 0.8 for me to just download and use?
(The download-link on the homepage points to 0.7)
If so, will there ever be one or is Windows just not officially
supported?
I'm one of those people who are just barely smart enough to use a
computer (which is why I use Windows) but when it comes to programming
and linux and stuff like that, I have no clue (I know, I tried...). So
you shoudn't waste your time explaining me how to compile it (whatever
that means) or whatever.
Thank you,
Flo.
Harry van der Wolf
You can download hugin 0.8 windows versions from Allard's pages:
http://allardkatan.net/misc/hugin/
Harry
Flo
So why don't they just put that one on the homepage?
On Aug 8, 11:15 pm, Harry van der Wolf <hvdw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Flo,
>
> You can download hugin 0.8 windows versions from Allard's pages:http://allardkatan.net/misc/hugin/
>
> Harry
>
Yuval Levy
Yuv
Erik Krause
> Test it, compare it to 0.7.0, and you will find out.
A very helpful answer, indeed ;-)
I see two possible cases:
- 0.8 is not stable on windows, why then was it released?
- 0.8 works ok on windows, why then is it not on the official download?
The new version has great potential, why make it so hard for a willing
user to find a binary?
What a pity: hugin could compete with the commercial alternatives, it
even has some extra features. Only recently it was mentioned and
delivered with the most respectable german computer magazine.
It's advertised as 0.8.0 on
http://www.heise.de/software/download/hugin/37580 and if you click the
download button you get to the sourceforge page. Again it is advertised
as 0.8.0 but if you click the windows download you get the 0.7 version.
The average user finds his prejudice against open source software
confirmed - and the developers apparently don't care...
best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de
Yuval Levy
> I see two possible cases:
> - 0.8 is not stable on windows, why then was it released?
> - 0.8 works ok on windows, why then is it not on the official download?
Maybe you should understand the details before posting such short
sighted views,
<http://panospace.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/give-a-man-a-fish/>
> it is advertised
> as 0.8.0 but if you click the windows download you get the 0.7 version.
maybe we should point to the same 0.8 version that is available to users
of all Linux platforms?
Yuv
allard
package with the old (0.7 installer bundled) versions of enblend and
ap-sift-c, and we consider the translation a 'known issue', would it
be good enough to release an installer? Are there features of 0.8 that
depend on new things introduced in the later versions of these two
programs?
When the problems are fixed, we can release new installers, that we
can call 0.8 update x if we don't want to upset the version numbers.
I think in striving for the perfect release, the most important thing
(releasing it) is neglected. So there are still some issues. But hugin
0.8 hasn't yet crashed on me without warning, like the latest so-
called stable releases of large OSS projects like OpenOffice or
Inkscape do quite regularly. In fact, in my personal experience the
0.7 release sometimes had some inexplicable and irreproducible crashes
that I haven't seen in any of the 0.8 rc snapshots I've used.
Anyway, that is my take on it. Yuv -who has a much bigger track record
on this project than I do - clearly sees things differently. How does
the rest of the community feel about this issue?
allard
Thomas Steiner
>
> Erik Krause wrote:
>> I see two possible cases:
>> - 0.8 is not stable on windows, why then was it released?
>> - 0.8 works ok on windows, why then is it not on the official download?
>
> Maybe you should understand the details before posting such short
> sighted views,
>
> <http://panospace.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/give-a-man-a-fish/>
Thanks, a great statement for individual responsibility and
enlightment. You have a wonderful idea of man and I think your
everyday's work for this project here is a proof of this.
But I agree with Erik, and you are not fair Yuval: You bloged *after*
your post. How can Flo know from your even shorter (than Erik's) what
you wanted to say?
And your reply did neither teach him how to fish nor how to build a
windows execuable.
In short: it was superfluous.
Thomas
Yuval Levy
> Going over the list of problems, I see an easy solution. If I build a
> package with the old (0.7 installer bundled) versions of enblend and
> ap-sift-c, and we consider the translation a 'known issue', would it
> be good enough to release an installer?
yes.
> Anyway, that is my take on it. Yuv -who has a much bigger track record
> on this project than I do - clearly sees things differently. How does
> the rest of the community feel about this issue?
i don't see things differently. all i commented on was the result of the
current installer (hugin-0.8.0 + sdk 2.7 or however it is called).
Yuv
Yuval Levy
> But I agree with Erik, and you are not fair Yuval: You bloged *after*
> your post. How can Flo know from your even shorter (than Erik's) what
> you wanted to say?
If Flo did what I said in my short reply he would have learned to fish.
He would have found out why 0.8.0 is not released for Windows yet.
Same thing for Erik, he would have found out the difference between a
tarball release and a binary installer with a simple Google search.
I crafted my blog article at the same time as my reply to him and hit
the send button in short distance, and it is not the only source of
answer to his question. I don't accept your judgment of fairness.
> And your reply did neither teach him how to fish nor how to build a
> windows execuable.
You are mistaking "giving the fish" with "teaching to fish". Or
otherwise stated: you expect me to hold the fishing rod for you. This is
the teaching method of many western schools and it is also the reason
why the fail. They teach you to look at somebody else fishing for you,
and best case they teach you how to blindly repeat the steps - not how
to really do it yourself.
> In short: it was superfluous.
I respect and accept your opinion. Obviously I disagree with it, but I
can live with it. I don't ask you (nor anybody else) to read my blog.
Don't ask me to publish an installer on a page that I am responsible for
when I think that that installer is not just superfluous - IMO it is
harmful to label such unfinished work an official release. There is
nothing distinguishing it from a snapshot installer, and there is a
whole series of them available and linked from
<http://panospace.wordpress.com/downloads/#devel>
When the Windows users community will come up with the right fish (i.e.
a working combination of the 0.8.0 tarball + Windows SDK that produces a
binary installer that passes the basic tests), it will be served on
everybody's table.
Until then, people who say: "I've tried to fish and this is where I got
to, any help?" usually get the answer that helps them move forward on
their quest - from me or from other members of the community. Look at
the list archives for examples.
people who state that "there is no fish on the table" go hungry until
they make the step of starting to fish. Or otherwise stated: until their
itch is painful enough from them to scratch it themselves.
Yuv
Thomas Steiner
Alexandre Prokoudine
> Thomas Steiner wrote:
> > But I agree with Erik, and you are not fair Yuval: You bloged *after*
> > your post. How can Flo know from your even shorter (than Erik's) what
> > you wanted to say?
>
> If Flo did what I said in my short reply he would have learned to fish.
Come on, it's so simple to be nice to people.
Alexandre
Flo
Don't you think you are a little bit arrogant over people who
obviously are not as smart as you when it comes to computers?
Now let me be a little arrogant: I know people who work with computers
have problems when it comes to human interaction. This is why I wrote
in my first post that I don't know anything about programming and the
likes and I Don't Want To! Since this is all like magic to me I was
hoping for one of you giants to take pitty on little me and tell me
what the deal is.
Please understand: I don't want you to teach me to fish!!! Believe it
or not but not everyone wants to be a programmer (is that what you
call it). I also did not say "Give me a Windows-version NOW!". I just
asked if there was going to be one!
Until your post, I did not know that the release of a new version does
not mean this new version is ready to be used. If you would have told
me that in a civilized manner, I would have said "thank you" and that
would have been the end of it...
So again: I'm sorry I just use computer programs and I'm sorry I use
Windows and I'm sorry I can not fish.
...as you can see, I took offence to your post and I'm sorry if I got
a little defensive but you need to realise you could be a little more
friendly to people who are basically your clients.
Do you see what I mean or is this all just proof to you that Windows
users suck ass?
Flo.
Nicolas Pelletier
Yuval Levy
> @Yuval Levy
>
> Don't you think you are a little bit arrogant
I had a one liner interaction with *you*:
Flo> So why don't they just put that one on the homepage?
Yuv> Test it, compare it to 0.7.0, and you will find out.
and this was *after* the location of the 0.8 snapshots had been
published in the thread, so I felt no need to repeat the obvious.
It's OK for me if you don't know or if you don't have the need to find
out. I don't care what you think of me. I'm sorry for you if you take
offense at my (admittedly short and dry) answer.
Yuv
Harry van der Wolf
John
On Aug 10, 3:10 pm, Erik Krause <erik.kra...@gmx.de> wrote:
> What a pity: hugin could compete with the commercial alternatives, it
> even has some extra features. Only recently it was mentioned and
> delivered with the most respectable german computer magazine.
>
> as 0.8.0 but if you click the windows download you get the 0.7 version.
> The average user finds his prejudice against open source software
> confirmed - and the developers apparently don't care...
>
> best regards
> --
> Erik Krausehttp://www.erik-krause.de
I am new to doing panos and was quite excited to find and use Hugin.
This "war" over the support for 0.8 Windows convinced me to "fork
over" the $$$s for PTGgui.
John
JeCh
I use Hugin for a long time and I know and appreciate your work on
this project. But I think your answer to Flo wasn't quite right. I
tested Hugin 0.8 on win32 and except of the problem I mentioned at
http://groups.google.com/group/hugin-ptx/browse_thread/thread/3aaf8a5c7219a25c
I didn't run into any problems.
So I think the short and right answer should have been "There are some
3rd party dependencies broken on Windows." I think it would be a good
idea to post this somewhere on the homepage, because it is really
confusing. The homepage says that 0.8 has been released, I go to
"Download" and I get 0.7 without any explanation. I think it is good
idea to point to 0.7 until all dependencies for 0.8 are fixed, but it
should be said and explained somewhere on the Hugin site.
Best regards,
Vladimir
Yuval Levy
> "About those who fish and those who don't fish": to refer to the earlier
> used comparison.
>
> In our Hugin community we have programmers (who you might call the
> fishermen), we have builders/packagers (the distributors, who do not
> necessarily know how to fish), translators (who almost never know how to
> fish, but do know that their work will help spread the "merchandise") and we
> have testusers and/or end users (who most of the time don't know how to
> fish).
Misunderstanding: "to fish" is not "to program".
"to fish" is
"to program" for the *programmer*
"to build" for the *builder*
"to translate" for the *translator*
"to hunt" for the *hunter*
and "to fish" for the *fisherman*
> That's OK with me. From a "social" point of view the skilled should support
> the unskilled: that's what more or less the programmers, packagers/builders
> and translators do.
*every* human is unskilled in most areas of human endeavor. The last
human who had a chance to learn the whole humanity's body of knowledge
died more than three centuries ago. Since then it takes more than a
lifetime to learn everything, so we all specialize and *exchange*.
Exchange is a two way thing and there are two types of free exchanges,
i.e. exchanges in which no party is forced to do anything:
- the "take" exchange: one party sets a price tag on an item. It "takes"
the price tag. If the second party accepts the exchange, it will pay it.
- the "give" exchange: one party gives an item. To accept the exchange
the second party receives the item. Receiving is optional.
(for completeness: in forced exchanges paying and receiving are not
optional)
> We have discussed before in this mailing list to ask users to donate to the
> Hugin project (and Yuval started that discussion). I think that is a much
> better idea than trying to learn everybody to fish. However, we should not
> force users to donate, which makes it immediately paid software, but to more
> strongly endorse users to donate, whatever amount they think is suitable.
"to fish" is "to donate" for the donor - and yes I agree with you that
we should not *force* but *encourage*. I started the discussion back
then because I was not sure whether to force donations is a good idea.
The discussions brought me to the conclusion that it is not a good idea.
So I did not put it into practice.
FLOSS is a "give economy" and every fisherman gives what they think is
suitable from their catch.
> (Coming back to learning to fish: I DO think we should stimulate all user to
> learn how to fish or distribute. For example: part of the MacOSX community
> could "starve to death" if we don't have builders/packagers with only one
> real OSX prrogrammer).
Exactly. Stimulate to learn. My experience has taught me that the best
way to learn a skill is to do it. Trial and error. So when I want to
pass on a skill to somebody I will set the stage for them to fish it,
making it neither too hard nor too easy to get themselves to their
expected result, rather than giving them the result itself.
> And with regard to paid software for those who can't fish and really don't
> want to learn to fish, but just eat the fish: Is that not exactly what
> Microsoft and Apple are doing with all of it's programs? Whether you are
> against it or not: it definitely works.
Most people can fish. In the above case, fishing is what is often also
known as a "job". And the catch is the paycheck. Microsoft, Apple, and
others like it because money does not smell.
They live in the *take* economy: they will look into your basket and
determine what kind of fish they take and how much of it they take in
exchange for their products and services. You're free to pay it or leave it.
Here the exchange works the other way around: *you* decide how much fish
you want to give and which fish you want to give. And if I find your
fish smelly, I don't have to take it. I can't ask you for a different
fish than what you are giving and expect that fish to be served on my table.
> To conclude a long story: I think we should respect each other in this this
> mailing list and respect whether someone should need to be a "fisherman"
> (fisherwoman?) or not.
The only people who can't fish are those unfortunate not to have any
skill at all; or to be disabled from using their skills by sickness,
accident, or other tragic event.
> it will certainly not work if we expect everyone to be (able to become)
> a "fisherman".
what will not work here is a "take economy". Money enslaves and this is
why plenty of FLOSS developer won't accept it, not even as a donation
(even if donation theoretically comes without strings attached).
If the fish I give is not good enough for somebody, they don't have to
eat it. That's OK, I'm not offended. They can even tell me that they are
still hungry. This is fish too: there is plenty to learn from users
feedback. But at some point, if I am not eating their fish, they should
stop trying to push it down my throat and go somewhere else.
just to cite one single (out of many, and no specific person targeted here):
anonymous fishermen> This "war" over the support for 0.8 Windows
anonymous fishermen> convinced me to "fork over" the $$$s for PTGgui
I'm sorry that this fish isn't good for you and sorry to see you go. I
hope you'll find the fish you're looking for wherever you go.
Good luck
Yuv
allard
of aps-c and enblend up by tonight so we can get this over with.
As I don't know how to program, I think the next thing I'll try to
work on for hugin is the webpage. A bit more communication towards the
general public is might be useful.
Allard
Yuval Levy
JeCh wrote:
> I think your answer to Flo wasn't quite right. I
> tested Hugin 0.8 on win32 and except of the problem I mentioned at
> http://groups.google.com/group/hugin-ptx/browse_thread/thread/3aaf8a5c7219a25c
> I didn't run into any problems.
well, I did run into problems.
> So I think the short and right answer should have been "There are some
> 3rd party dependencies broken on Windows." I think it would be a good
> idea to post this somewhere on the homepage, because it is really
> confusing. The homepage says that 0.8 has been released, I go to
> "Download" and I get 0.7 without any explanation. I think it is good
> idea to point to 0.7 until all dependencies for 0.8 are fixed, but it
> should be said and explained somewhere on the Hugin site.
We can't add explanations to the "Download" link - it is automatically
generated by SourceForge.
Explaining on the homepage? I am not sure how. I am not inclined to do
so in the detail that you write above.
First: because we'd have to do it for all platforms, not only Windows.
Binary distribution on Ubuntu is not much better.
Second: because as far as I am concerned, hugin-0.8.0.tar.gz is what the
Hugin developers team released. It is source code that has been
superficially tested to build on the supported platforms. It's a recipe
to build the binary; it is not the binary itself.
Building the binaries is left to the users community. Once there are
binaries of appropriate quality level, we add them to the SF archive.
It's like a movie studio releasing a film. First the film is released to
theatres. A few weeks/months later it is released on DVD for home use.
If you know how to deal with the recipe, you can take what the Hugin
released to theatres and enjoy it right away. If not, you will have to
wait patiently until the binary release.
We have no resources for binaries. I have limited time and I rather put
it to work on the next features than on making a binary work that I
won't even use.
Some users communities are smaller, some are bigger, some are faster,
some are slower. We can and should not wait for all binaries to be ready
and tested before releasing. But we should not distribute unfinished
binaries as official. And we can and should not bend to the expectations
of a minority of vocal users who mistake this for a commercial software
company; have unreasonable expectations; talk of money and competition
with commercial software without walking their talk.
http://sourceforge.net/project/project_donations.php?group_id=77506
Yuv
Yuv
Oskar Sander
As I don't know how to program, I think the next thing I'll try to
work on for hugin is the webpage. A bit more communication towards the
general public is might be useful.
Allard
Agree absolutely. My opinion is that there should be one webb-point for the hugin comunity, the number gives the strength, i don't favour fragmentation of developer vs end-user communities.
The Hugin bandwagon is moving...
Cheers
--
/O
Erik Krause
> It's advertised as 0.8.0 on
> http://www.heise.de/software/download/hugin/37580 and if you click the
> download button you get to the sourceforge page. Again it is advertised
> as 0.8.0 but if you click the windows download you get the 0.7 version.
> The average user finds his prejudice against open source software
> confirmed - and the developers apparently don't care...
The next number of c't published on Aug 31 is advertised to have an
article with a comparison of panorama stitchers (german):
http://www.heise.de/ct/vorschau/
You can bet: Will they talk about hugin 0.8 or will they talk about
version 0.7?
lor74cas
On 15 Ago, 01:57, Yuval Levy <goo...@levy.ch> wrote:
> Hi Vladimir,
>
> JeCh wrote:
> > I think your answer to Flo wasn't quite right. I
> > tested Hugin 0.8 on win32 and except of the problem I mentioned at