My morning runs are straight uphill and back, 3~9 miles. I now have long downhills to work on technique. I’ve so far run mostly bare, few in Invisible shoes and Adams to lessen the pain from the dried cracked skin.
OMG, I even took yesterday off. I think it’s been about 3 months.
I love downhills when I don’t have to control speed. Controlling the speed and being comfortable on the steeper and faster grade is a work in progress. My tools to control speed are upper body angle relative to the slope, knee bend, cadence, and hip extension.
I’ve been annoyed at how hard my landing is, especially on steeper grades.
There is a patch of rough pavement I hit about a mile away from the house.
At this point my feet are somewhat tired such that the roughness and hard footfall create a serious challenge.
I slow down or stop. My upper body is parallel to gravity vector, my feet land almost flat. My cadence is high and I am inhibiting the hip extension. I bend my knee further and try to land as softly as possible. Still my feet hurt, the impact feels too hard on the foot and some of it comes up to the hips. I can feel my legs and hips well into the afternoon.
Eureka! On a smooth asphalt I was playing with speed. How fast can I go without increasing the cadence ? Pull that foot under the butt in a compact form and touch the ground as I fly down. I relaxed my hips and rode the gravity down. I noticed my hip extending nicely and landing very softly.
Instead of trying to absorb the speed, I was transferring that energy to accelerate. Why soft landing then? Apparently when I have good hip extension, the foot, the calf, the knee, and the thigh all work together to capture the energy and release it back. The rough patch came up. I didn’t slow down. Funny it doesn’t hurt as much this way. I’ve been missing this all this time. Hip extension again.
> My morning runs are straight uphill and back, 3~9 miles. I now have long
> downhills to work on technique. I’ve so far run mostly bare, few in
> Invisible shoes and Adams to lessen the pain from the dried cracked skin.
> OMG, I even took yesterday off. I think it’s been about 3 months.
> I love downhills when I don’t have to control speed. Controlling the
> speed and being comfortable on the steeper and faster grade is a work in
> progress. My tools to control speed are upper body angle relative to the
> slope, knee bend, cadence, and hip extension.
> I’ve been annoyed at how hard my landing is, especially on steeper
> grades. There is a patch of rough pavement I hit about a mile away from
> the house. At this point my feet are somewhat tired such that the
> roughness and hard footfall create a serious challenge.
> I slow down or stop. My upper body is parallel to gravity vector, my feet
> land almost flat. My cadence is high and I am inhibiting the hip
> extension. I bend my knee further and try to land as softly as possible.
> Still my feet hurt, the impact feels too hard on the foot and some of it
> comes up to the hips. I can feel my legs and hips well into the afternoon.
> Eureka! On a smooth asphalt I was playing with speed. How fast can I go
> without increasing the cadence ? Pull that foot under the butt in a compact
> form and touch the ground as I fly down. I relaxed my hips and rode the
> gravity down. I noticed my hip extending nicely and landing very softly.
> Instead of trying to absorb the speed, I was transferring that energy to
> accelerate. Why soft landing then? Apparently when I have good hip
> extension, the foot, the calf, the knee, and the thigh all work together to
> capture the energy and release it back. The rough patch came up. I didn’t
> slow down. Funny it doesn’t hurt as much this way. I’ve been missing this
> all this time. Hip extension again.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:15:16 PM UTC-5, runs_with_kona wrote:
> My morning runs are straight uphill and back, 3~9 miles. I now have long > downhills to work on technique. I’ve so far run mostly bare, few in > Invisible shoes and Adams to lessen the pain from the dried cracked skin.
> OMG, I even took yesterday off. I think it’s been about 3 months.
> I love downhills when I don’t have to control speed. Controlling the > speed and being comfortable on the steeper and faster grade is a work in > progress. My tools to control speed are upper body angle relative to the > slope, knee bend, cadence, and hip extension.
> I’ve been annoyed at how hard my landing is, especially on steeper > grades. There is a patch of rough pavement I hit about a mile away from > the house. At this point my feet are somewhat tired such that the > roughness and hard footfall create a serious challenge.
> I slow down or stop. My upper body is parallel to gravity vector, my feet > land almost flat. My cadence is high and I am inhibiting the hip > extension. I bend my knee further and try to land as softly as possible. > Still my feet hurt, the impact feels too hard on the foot and some of it > comes up to the hips. I can feel my legs and hips well into the afternoon.
> Eureka! On a smooth asphalt I was playing with speed. How fast can I go > without increasing the cadence ? Pull that foot under the butt in a compact > form and touch the ground as I fly down. I relaxed my hips and rode the > gravity down. I noticed my hip extending nicely and landing very softly.
> Instead of trying to absorb the speed, I was transferring that energy to > accelerate. Why soft landing then? Apparently when I have good hip > extension, the foot, the calf, the knee, and the thigh all work together to > capture the energy and release it back. The rough patch came up. I didn’t > slow down. Funny it doesn’t hurt as much this way. I’ve been missing this > all this time. Hip extension again.
I have experienced exactly this learning from running down some steeper hills barefoot lately. The other thing that has helped me speed up and hurt less has been to concentrate very explicitly on relaxing my calf muscles as I land - just letting my feet "fall" without tensing the calf muscles. Concentrating on it makes me land more gently.
JohnK
On Sep 26, 2012, at 5:15 PM, runs_with_kona wrote:
> My morning runs are straight uphill and back, 3~9 miles. I now have long downhills to work on technique. I’ve so far run mostly bare, few in Invisible shoes and Adams to lessen the pain from the dried cracked skin. OMG, I even took yesterday off. I think it’s been about 3 months.
> I love downhills when I don’t have to control speed. Controlling the speed and being comfortable on the steeper and faster grade is a work in progress. My tools to control speed are upper body angle relative to the slope, knee bend, cadence, and hip extension.
> I’ve been annoyed at how hard my landing is, especially on steeper grades. There is a patch of rough pavement I hit about a mile away from the house. At this point my feet are somewhat tired such that the roughness and hard footfall create a serious challenge.
> I slow down or stop. My upper body is parallel to gravity vector, my feet land almost flat. My cadence is high and I am inhibiting the hip extension. I bend my knee further and try to land as softly as possible. Still my feet hurt, the impact feels too hard on the foot and some of it comes up to the hips. I can feel my legs and hips well into the afternoon.
> Eureka! On a smooth asphalt I was playing with speed. How fast can I go without increasing the cadence ? Pull that foot under the butt in a compact form and touch the ground as I fly down. I relaxed my hips and rode the gravity down. I noticed my hip extending nicely and landing very softly. Instead of trying to absorb the speed, I was transferring that energy to accelerate. Why soft landing then? Apparently when I have good hip extension, the foot, the calf, the knee, and the thigh all work together to capture the energy and release it back. The rough patch came up. I didn’t slow down. Funny it doesn’t hurt as much this way. I’ve been missing this all this time. Hip extension again.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:15:16 PM UTC-6, runs_with_kona wrote:
> My morning runs are straight uphill and back, 3~9 miles. I now have long > downhills to work on technique. I’ve so far run mostly bare, few in > Invisible shoes and Adams to lessen the pain from the dried cracked skin.
> OMG, I even took yesterday off. I think it’s been about 3 months.
> I love downhills when I don’t have to control speed. Controlling the > speed and being comfortable on the steeper and faster grade is a work in > progress. My tools to control speed are upper body angle relative to the > slope, knee bend, cadence, and hip extension.
> I’ve been annoyed at how hard my landing is, especially on steeper > grades. There is a patch of rough pavement I hit about a mile away from > the house. At this point my feet are somewhat tired such that the > roughness and hard footfall create a serious challenge.
> I slow down or stop. My upper body is parallel to gravity vector, my feet > land almost flat. My cadence is high and I am inhibiting the hip > extension. I bend my knee further and try to land as softly as possible. > Still my feet hurt, the impact feels too hard on the foot and some of it > comes up to the hips. I can feel my legs and hips well into the afternoon.
> Eureka! On a smooth asphalt I was playing with speed. How fast can I go > without increasing the cadence ? Pull that foot under the butt in a compact > form and touch the ground as I fly down. I relaxed my hips and rode the > gravity down. I noticed my hip extending nicely and landing very softly.
> Instead of trying to absorb the speed, I was transferring that energy to > accelerate. Why soft landing then? Apparently when I have good hip > extension, the foot, the calf, the knee, and the thigh all work together to > capture the energy and release it back. The rough patch came up. I didn’t > slow down. Funny it doesn’t hurt as much this way. I’ve been missing this > all this time. Hip extension again.
Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. This helps with 2 things, I believe.
1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing.
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire > leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send > it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:41:45 PM UTC-4, Lawrence wrote:
> What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a > recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the > ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a > puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with > the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot > must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. > This helps with 2 things, I believe.
> 1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
> 2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at > impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee > and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken > less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s > descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute > braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
> I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the > tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
> So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing. > On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
>> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire >> leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send >> it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
>> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:47:19 PM UTC-5, Lawrence wrote:
> I also recently discovered that landing on the kneecap while running > downhill is a very poor deceleration strategy....
> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:41:45 PM UTC-4, Lawrence wrote:
>> What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a >> recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the >> ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a >> puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with >> the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot >> must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. >> This helps with 2 things, I believe.
>> 1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
>> 2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at >> impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee >> and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken >> less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s >> descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute >> braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
>> I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the >> tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
>> So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing. >> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
>>> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire >>> leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send >>> it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
>>> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence To: huaraches@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:41 PM
Subject: [Minimalist Runner:122583] Re: What I learned running long downhills.
What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. This helps with 2 things, I believe.
1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing.
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:42:50 AM UTC-5, runs_with_kona wrote:
> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire > leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send > it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
I 've been trying to limit the cadence by increasing the stride. To do this I don't hold the leg out front but I pull it up towards my butt higher to stay afloat longer. This way I feel my foot is touching the ground further back then if I just let it free fall. I keep telling myself that even at a very steep 30°, I am not dropping down that much more compared to being on a flat ground. I shouldn't be landing so hard.
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:41:45 PM UTC-6, Lawrence wrote:
> What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a > recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the > ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a > puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with > the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot > must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. > This helps with 2 things, I believe.
> 1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
> 2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at > impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee > and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken > less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s > descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute > braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
> I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the > tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
> So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing. > On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
>> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire >> leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send >> it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
>> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 9:40:35 PM UTC-6, runs_with_kona wrote:
> I 've been trying to limit the cadence by increasing the stride. To do > this I don't hold the leg out front but I pull it up towards my butt higher > to stay afloat longer. This way I feel my foot is touching the ground > further back then if I just let it free fall. I keep telling myself that > even at a very steep 30°, I am not dropping down that much more compared to > being on a flat ground. I shouldn't be landing so hard.
> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:41:45 PM UTC-6, Lawrence wrote:
>> What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a >> recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the >> ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a >> puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with >> the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot >> must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. >> This helps with 2 things, I believe.
>> 1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
>> 2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at >> impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee >> and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken >> less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s >> descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute >> braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
>> I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the >> tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
>> So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing. >> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
>>> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire >>> leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send >>> it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
>>> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:50:01 PM UTC-6, gordo wrote:
> You run down 30 degree hills? That's insanely steep. A 50% grade. A double > black ski run. The steepest section of the Incline. My hat goes off to you.
> Gordo
> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 9:40:35 PM UTC-6, runs_with_kona wrote:
>> I 've been trying to limit the cadence by increasing the stride. To do >> this I don't hold the leg out front but I pull it up towards my butt higher >> to stay afloat longer. This way I feel my foot is touching the ground >> further back then if I just let it free fall. I keep telling myself that >> even at a very steep 30°, I am not dropping down that much more compared to >> being on a flat ground. I shouldn't be landing so hard.
>> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:41:45 PM UTC-6, Lawrence wrote:
>>> What I have noticed is that runners, when running downhill, often let a >>> recovered leg stop moving briefly while waiting for the body to fall to the >>> ground. This is a little like what one might do when one leaps over a >>> puddle while walking. In running, I think the movement of the legs, as with >>> the arms, must never pause. Therefore, I believe that the recovered foot >>> must already be swinging back towards the body before it hits the ground. >>> This helps with 2 things, I believe.
>>> 1. It decreases, albeit slightly, the distance of the descent.
>>> 2. More importantly, it prevents one from hardening the leg at >>> impact, and allows the glutes to take the brunt of the impact. If the knee >>> and ankle are not stiffened unduly at impact, the body’s weight is taken >>> less abruptly. This can be compared to braking in a car to slow one’s >>> descent – one doesn’t want to slam on the brakes – one wants to distribute >>> braking force over a distance, using minimal pressure.
>>> I do this much better when I run very fast downhill. Running slowly, the >>> tendency to descend in leaps manifests more quickly.
>>> So, basically, not hanging out at the apex of leg or arm swing. >>> On Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:42:50 PM UTC-4, runs_with_kona wrote:
>>>> Relaxing with a focus. The moment the foot hits the ground, the entire >>>> leg has to be coordinately activated to absorb the impact energy and send >>>> it back. I cannot do this type of relaxing by imaging a jelly fish.
>>>> I'm pretending more like this, a different kind of chi running:
On Friday, September 28, 2012 8:46:56 AM UTC-6, runs_with_kona wrote:
> LOL. 30° was easy to calculate.
LOL Yeah. For those of you who haven't memorized the sine of a 30 degree angle, it's 0.5. So if your normal step length is six feet and you run down a 30 degree hill, you fall three feet per step. But your step length wants to increase going down hills because gravity pulls at you. This won't have a happy ending if you don't apply some serious braking ....
On Friday, September 28, 2012 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, gordo wrote:
> On Friday, September 28, 2012 8:46:56 AM UTC-6, runs_with_kona wrote:
>> LOL. 30° was easy to calculate.
> LOL Yeah. For those of you who haven't memorized the sine of a 30 degree > angle, it's 0.5. So if your normal step length is six feet and you run down > a 30 degree hill, you fall three feet per step. But your step length wants > to increase going down hills because gravity pulls at you. This won't have > a happy ending if you don't apply some serious braking ....
> Gordo
The only numbers I remember from High School are Sine of a 45 angle = .707
and The Norman Conquest - 1066. I think I got to use that knowledge once in a trivia contest. However, I have often used a Shakespeare sonnet we had to memorize - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow......."
