> builds up from my body stupidly trying to protect me from the
> onslaught of the world, including in my head, face, neck, and
> shoulders. I love the concept of "working to relax!" Grin. What have
> you found helpful?
Exactly! Well said. I basically use a bunch of different things I
learned in yoga to try to melt away the tension when I'm running. The
first thing yoga is about is calming down the swirl of thoughts in the
mind. I focus on my breathing and how my body feels to try and keep my
focus anchored on the task at hand - running. I also like using
imagery in my head and picturing fluffy clouds in my shoulders and
jaw, or water running down my back. The hard part is bringing this
same relaxation into a track race. When I'm deep in the woods I'm as
relaxed as can be. A track meet is not a very relaxed venue... The
challenge is staying in tune with the race while not getting caught up
in the other runners mental noise.
On Jan 21, 8:21 pm, Highlander <lamontg...@mac.com> wrote:
> "I have recently been working on relaxing my face as much possible, as
> I've noticed tension in my face will trickle down into the shoulders
> and even pelvis."
> Fascinating, Ryan. For me, running helps melt away the tension that
> builds up from my body stupidly trying to protect me from the
> onslaught of the world, including in my head, face, neck, and
> shoulders. I love the concept of "working to relax!" Grin. What have
> you found helpful?
> I find yawning intentionally helps initiate a facial melt, as does
> looking very surprised and then relaxing. Shoulder rolls help my
> shoulders let go.
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> On Jan 21, 6:02 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In the half marathon I was trying to keep my upper body as relaxed as
> > possible as I have a tendency to get tight in the shoulders. I think
> > this is why my arms look "lazy" and as Patrick pointed out, bending
> > them/using them more would be beneficial. In the 3K I was purposely
> > trying to work my arms more since that was a faster pace. I am
> > constantly receiving input from my body and trying to find ways to
> > eliminate resistance to my forward motion. I have recently been
> > working on relaxing my face as much possible, as I've noticed tension
> > in my face will trickle down into the shoulders and even pelvis.
> > On Jan 21, 7:23 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Ryan,
> > > Hi, what I would like to know is how you would describe your running?
> > > such as what you feel you are doing to create what we see. Please be
> > > as detailed as you can :-)
> > > On Jan 20, 1:25 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Anybody interested in providing some feedback on my running form?
No one is claiming the value is the same, just that both have it. But, what is coming across to me is external input is without value, which I disagree with.
Here is an example of what I am referring to by external input.
Take someone (like me) with a flaw in their form they are unaware of (as I was) and thus unaware of how to correct. If you were to ask this person, "How would it feel if the hip were extended a little more?," that would be a form of external input. That simple question may provide some input that is otherwise unthought of. Nothing about the question prevents the runner from seeing how it feels to try to implement it. Feel is still necessary to know if the motion change is right for the person.
But, there is a flip side to this. If the hip is tight, trying to extend it may be uncomfortable. It may feel bad to try to extend it further than the norm for that runner. The data may say it helps (faster times). But, if feel says it is uncomfortable, what should be done? Do you respect the uncomfortableness of the bad feel and avoid it or work through it because, intellectually, you know it will make you better runner? It is a balance between accepting external input and evaluating the feel of how implementation affects the body. Both are beneficial.
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Highlander <lamontg...@mac.com> wrote: > Indeed. But not everything has the same value. Among many other > things, running by feel puts the body in charge, at the top rather > than whatever external. But we have to learn to listen for that to > work. Hence, it's a completely different paradigm for how to run.
Exactly! What you just described, Tim, is the beginning of the
conversation, a single point in time. To continue it...
I'd ask my body why it hurts to extend my hip. Is it strength or
flexibility I'm lacking? Disuse and thus both? Then I explore how to
get that, conversing with my body as I go, taking my lead from it and
what it needs. The conversation on that one topic may last a day, a
week, a month, or more. Other conversations will be happening
simultaneously. What if I add in hip rotation, not just hip extension?
What does that do? OK, so strengthening should be real world motion
rather than isolated exercises. What does that look like? What exactly
is hip extension? Am I doing something else wrong that makes hip
extension hurt? What if I open my hips (tuck in my buttocks)? Ahhhh,
now that helps. What else does rotating my hips do?
Body centric conversation is just the beginning, but also the easiest
to describe.
With abandon,
Patrick
On Jan 21, 7:42 pm, Tim Butterfield <timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No one is claiming the value is the same, just that both have it.
> But, what is coming across to me is external input is without value,
> which I disagree with.
> Here is an example of what I am referring to by external input.
> Take someone (like me) with a flaw in their form they are unaware of
> (as I was) and thus unaware of how to correct. If you were to ask
> this person, "How would it feel if the hip were extended a little
> more?," that would be a form of external input. That simple question
> may provide some input that is otherwise unthought of. Nothing about
> the question prevents the runner from seeing how it feels to try to
> implement it. Feel is still necessary to know if the motion change is
> right for the person.
> But, there is a flip side to this. If the hip is tight, trying to
> extend it may be uncomfortable. It may feel bad to try to extend it
> further than the norm for that runner. The data may say it helps
> (faster times). But, if feel says it is uncomfortable, what should be
> done? Do you respect the uncomfortableness of the bad feel and avoid
> it or work through it because, intellectually, you know it will make
> you better runner? It is a balance between accepting external input
> and evaluating the feel of how implementation affects the body. Both
> are beneficial.
> Tim
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Highlander <lamontg...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Indeed. But not everything has the same value. Among many other
> > things, running by feel puts the body in charge, at the top rather
> > than whatever external. But we have to learn to listen for that to
> > work. Hence, it's a completely different paradigm for how to run.
Imo your arms are not swinging as freely as they could but I would not
recommend pumping them more or faster. Just allow them release and
avoid holding them. Our body moves from the core. In order for our
limbs to move as free as possible we have to understand the
relationship. There is lots of various thoughts in this forum with
which to cause confusion but I think you are doing a good thing by
continuing to explore.
On Jan 21, 7:02 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In the half marathon I was trying to keep my upper body as relaxed as
> possible as I have a tendency to get tight in the shoulders. I think
> this is why my arms look "lazy" and as Patrick pointed out, bending
> them/using them more would be beneficial. In the 3K I was purposely
> trying to work my arms more since that was a faster pace. I am
> constantly receiving input from my body and trying to find ways to
> eliminate resistance to my forward motion. I have recently been
> working on relaxing my face as much possible, as I've noticed tension
> in my face will trickle down into the shoulders and even pelvis.
> On Jan 21, 7:23 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ryan,
> > Hi, what I would like to know is how you would describe your running?
> > such as what you feel you are doing to create what we see. Please be
> > as detailed as you can :-)
> > On Jan 20, 1:25 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Anybody interested in providing some feedback on my running form?
Yes! Feel is used to have the conversation with the body. But, let me bring this back to the point about external input. I was unaware a conversation about stride length was even needed since my compensation (with cadence) was so automatic. External input from the cadence thread alerted me that a feel conversation with my body about stride length was needed. Now that I have received the external input identifying a specific conversation topic, I can use feel to have that conversation with my body, to figure out if and how my body reacts to changes relating to it. I needed both the external input and feel to improve in this area. Just the one alone was insufficient in this case.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Highlander <lamontg...@mac.com> wrote: > Exactly! What you just described, Tim, is the beginning of the > conversation, a single point in time. To continue it...
> I'd ask my body why it hurts to extend my hip. Is it strength or > flexibility I'm lacking? Disuse and thus both? Then I explore how to > get that, conversing with my body as I go, taking my lead from it and > what it needs. The conversation on that one topic may last a day, a > week, a month, or more. Other conversations will be happening > simultaneously. What if I add in hip rotation, not just hip extension? > What does that do? OK, so strengthening should be real world motion > rather than isolated exercises. What does that look like? What exactly > is hip extension? Am I doing something else wrong that makes hip > extension hurt? What if I open my hips (tuck in my buttocks)? Ahhhh, > now that helps. What else does rotating my hips do?
> Body centric conversation is just the beginning, but also the easiest > to describe.
I finally decided to pay attention to my cadence a little today since my speed was all over the map. It appears my cadence is fairly consist (185-190'ish) from the slowest speed (saw around 13 mm heading up hill) up to about 7:30mm or so then my cadence started to increase. I assume I reached the limits of my flexibility (which is zero :) ) so the body had to compensate for the greater lean by an increase in cadence. It still felt nice and soft just faster :)
Fortunately my ultramarathons will not see me hitting sub 8mm (or even 9mm probably) so for the moment my lack of flexibility is lower down on the list of things I need to improve upon.
Oh as a reference point I am 6 feet 4 inches tall. I sometimes run with a shorter guy (closer to 5 ft) and his cadence is noticeably higher. There must be a formula or something for someone's ideal cadence for their "resonant frequency" :)
Oh and consciously messing with my cadence was a no go. I have to time my pull to my weight/unweight regardless of what I "want" my cadence to be. But you knew that Agile :)
Here's another point to this. Increased range of flexibility may make movement well within the range easier. Or, the opposing thought, increased flexibility may reduce elasticity benefits. So, perhaps, an increase in specific flexibility may be a positive or a negative depending on how we are using the elastic recoil of that particular muscle. For example, a sprinter may need the elastic recoil to happen at a wider range of motion than an ultramaraton runner. Would this be an accurate assessment?
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:43 PM, JasonH <jasonm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Fortunately my ultramarathons will not see me hitting sub 8mm (or even 9mm > probably) so for the moment my lack of flexibility is lower down on the list > of things I need to improve upon.
Perhaps but personally I really have no specific knowledge one way or the other. The elastic properties of our muscles/tendons are critical for efficiency but I have no idea what effects flexibility would have on the muscles to do useful work. Wasn't there a mention of an article in another thread about sprinters actually having 'tighter' "stuff" ?
In practice I check cadence. Never checked it in a race. I'm usually
right around 180 for most speeds. When I sprint it goes up but I don't
know how high it actually gets. A 5K race would probably be 180-182
and the last 200 would be faster (190?)
I also do a good anoint of running at 10-12 minute mile pace and think
my cadence is 180 even while running those paces. I keep a very short
stride and high cadence even while running slow as I feel it helps
keep my springy.
On Jan 22, 2:30 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds and looks like you have some very good characteristic of
efficient running going on. One would need to get very picky to offer
refinements. I am not sure this is the venue for that. Great job so
far and keep up the good running.
On Jan 22, 7:05 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In practice I check cadence. Never checked it in a race. I'm usually
> right around 180 for most speeds. When I sprint it goes up but I don't
> know how high it actually gets. A 5K race would probably be 180-182
> and the last 200 would be faster (190?)
> I also do a good anoint of running at 10-12 minute mile pace and think
> my cadence is 180 even while running those paces. I keep a very short
> stride and high cadence even while running slow as I feel it helps
> keep my springy.
> On Jan 22, 2:30 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ryan,
> > Have you done any routine cadence counting at your different speeds?
> > If so what have you learned from it and can you provide some of that
> > data?
> > On Jan 20, 1:25 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Anybody interested in providing some feedback on my running form?
Thanks Agile. Efficient yes...fast not so much. I ran another 3K
yesterday and ran a mediocre 9:18 (about 8 seconds slower than the
previous two I have run)
Trying to find ways to increase the speed without having to spend 4
hours per day in the gym...
On Jan 22, 8:54 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds and looks like you have some very good characteristic of
> efficient running going on. One would need to get very picky to offer
> refinements. I am not sure this is the venue for that. Great job so
> far and keep up the good running.
> On Jan 22, 7:05 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In practice I check cadence. Never checked it in a race. I'm usually
> > right around 180 for most speeds. When I sprint it goes up but I don't
> > know how high it actually gets. A 5K race would probably be 180-182
> > and the last 200 would be faster (190?)
> > I also do a good anoint of running at 10-12 minute mile pace and think
> > my cadence is 180 even while running those paces. I keep a very short
> > stride and high cadence even while running slow as I feel it helps
> > keep my springy.
> > On Jan 22, 2:30 pm, agile runner <jhuffman9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Ryan,
> > > Have you done any routine cadence counting at your different speeds?
> > > If so what have you learned from it and can you provide some of that
> > > data?
> > > On Jan 20, 1:25 pm, Ryan <Stee...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Anybody interested in providing some feedback on my running form?
I have thought about it to get another perspective but I don't think
the Pose coach in my area would be open to it, although I think there
are a couple, there is only one that I see with an active website/blog
etc...
On Jan 23, 1:54 am, OrionFyre <orionf...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thats a good one but we've only just recently gotten some snow and it
is already melting. I do enjoy a good run in the snow though.
My plan right now:
Run a race every weekend
More consistent weight lifting
Having a minimal shoe that is warm was one of the first things I said
when we actually decided we were going to go full steam ahead with
minimus.
My quote was pretty much: "I could just buy a racing flat. The thing
that would get me to buy a "minimalist" shoe would be that it kept my
feet warm during the winter."
On Jan 23, 9:20 am, runs_with_kona <shin.n....@gmail.com> wrote:
