On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:48 AM, el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> ye3a, thas what she said....
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tuck" <tuck...@gmail.com>
> To: <huaraches@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:126176] Re: Lump on top of foot
> Yeah, and my pastured bacon is nice and firm when warm.
> "..gradually ween yourself off the orthotics..."
> Gradually meaning "as fast as possible", as all the orthotics and support shoes are doing is weakening your feet.
Well, you do have to be somewhat careful as I found out when weaning myself off orthotics and motion control shoes. If you go too fast, you will have knock-on effects as all the muscles from your feet to your neck have adjusted based on the orthotics. Taking them away and carrying on as normal is a recipe for pain all the way up to your neck.
I just took them out and carried on running 8 miles a day. It hurt - my knees, my hips, my lower back all the way up to my head.
But... I still cut my orthotics up (I was really mad) gave up my attempts to keep running, and started from scratch just walking ;)
So in the end, I agree - get rid of orthotics, but be gentle on yourself.
> That's the problem, not the cure, and trying to make something better by adding more of what's making it worse is a peculiar strategy.
> Too great articles by Dr. Nirenberg on this...
> Can Good, Supportive Shoes Become Addictive?
> Can We Walk Ourselves Well?
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Nick J <nick.je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jay, keep us up to date with your progress, this reminds me of Harry about 3 years ago getting over his ankle and fascia problems. Good thread very interesting.
> From a personal perspective I think I have a bone spur on the junction of the 1st Met and cuneiform, although I have not had this diagnosed. It seems to be relieved if there is no pressure upon it, different lacing techniques etc. I believe from what I've read that it can trap a nerve in the foot and cause all sorts of referred pain. Personally dogged persistence and a change of shoes from the MT110 to the Mix Masters has made a difference. I've been dealing with "something" around this area of my foot ever since I went minimal, but it's never been enough to stop me running, I'm not sure if going without shoes caused this or if indeed it was caused by a tight fitting pair of shoes, if my experience with ski boot related bone spurs is anything to go by then this is a problem caused by too much pressure, so being barefoot should actually be the cure. Although I guess surgery is necessary to get rid of it completely.
> I wouldn't go down that road though.
> I'd go with the idea to build up barefoot walks first, run in a neutral shoe and gradually ween yourself off the orthotics and then only when you feel ready some barefoot running.
> On Friday, 9 November 2012 08:49:03 UTC+1, el jefe wrote:
> ye3a, thas what she said.... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tuck" <tuc...@gmail.com> > To: <huar...@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:126176] Re: Lump on top of foot
> > Yeah, and my pastured bacon is nice and firm when warm.
> > On 11/8/12, gordo <gaj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The Costco stuff is gooshy right out of the fridge. Scary.
> >> Gordo
> >> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 6:32:17 PM UTC-7, Viking Runner wrote:
> >>> I've noticed that too with the Natures Promise bacon at room temp it > >>> gets
> >>> soft or gooshy (kind of like that word) quickly....just like Kobe beef > >>> :-)...grains anyone...;-)
> >>> carl
> >>> OH O > >>> I II > >>> / \ / \ > >>> OH
> >>> ------------------------------ > >>> *From:* gordo <gaj...@gmail.com <javascript:>> > >>> *To:* huar...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > >>> *Sent:* Thu, November 8, 2012 5:11:23 PM > >>> *Subject:* Re: [Minimalist Runner:126139] Re: Lump on top of foot
> >>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:53:53 PM UTC-7, Tuck wrote:
> >>>> (Yes, I have had bacon fat which would not congeal at room temp. Lord > >>>> only knows what they're feeding those poor pigs...)
> >>>> You can tell before you buy the bacon. The bacon at Costco feels > >>>> gooshy.
> >>> At the frau frau meat store, if's firm, almost hard.
>> That's the problem, not the cure, and trying to make something better by adding more of what's making it worse is a peculiar strategy.
> IMHO
> Orthotics if used should be treated like a cast on a broken bone -- only as a short term aid to fix something that is wrong.
That's not how they were explained to me, or how I experienced them. They had wide-ranging impact on how I walk and run. Impact that I still deal with today, 17 years after I cut them up. I was told that once I had adjusted to them, my entire gait would change, and it did - I was told that ALL walking and running should be done with the orthotics.
> But even while in cast for a broken bone, you'd be doing physical therapy on the supporting muscles, etc., to keep range of motion and strength. So if an orthotic is worn at all, make sure lots of exercises are being included in the recovery plan! (preferably most exercises would be done w/o the orthotic.)
This is not specific but there are several things that you should start thinking differently. 1) There is NOTHING wrong about your anatomy. Your feet are perfect for running. You have an injury from decades of confining it. You need to heal the injuries and start building strength slowly to get back the function. 2) Soft tissues injury is easier than bone. NO! Bones don't move by design. They are to support a load. Take the load off and keep it fixed and the bones heal. Soft tissues in contrast have to move, healing and strengthening has to occur while these tissues are moving, this takes more time. On top of this you develop compensatory movements to avoid pain which involves even long time to get rid of. 3) You don't need a podiatrist. Especially anyone that tells you were born defective. 4) Morton's toe is not unusual, 30% of the world is this way.
I started this journey 4 years ago. I ditched motion controlled shoes and had such a bad Top Of The Foot Pain (TOFP) by doing Too Much Too Soon. I couldn't not walk without piercing pain in my foot for weeks and months. I have Morton's toe. I have a thirty year old knee injury. I did not think I can ever run on pavement. I run seven days a week and for the past several months my milage is in the 50+ range. Currently half of my milage is down hill and am working on how to run that without accumulating stress in my body. Be patient and stay with it, the rewards are fantastic.
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:53:25 AM UTC-7, Jay Fox wrote:
> Wow, that was incredibly informative, and particularly pertinent. I've > been testing my big toe strength, and it's significantly weaker on the left > foot. Also, I was trying the toe yoga from the Jay Dicharry video that > someone linked to, and while I can do the toe yoga just fine on the right > foot, I find it incredibly hard on the left. And as I already noted, my > right big toe splays just fine, whether sitting, standing, walking, or > running. But the left one refuses to splay when walking or running. And > splaying it while sitting or standing takes focus. I can get it to splay > intermittently when walking, if I concentrate enough, but while running > I've had little success.
> The ganglion cyst didn't move with the tendons in my foot. As I already > mentioned early in thread, if I flexed and extended my toes, I could see > all the flesh moving forward and back. Veins, muscle, skin, tendons... But > the lump stayed put. Between that, and the hardness, I was convinced it was > bone. Well, ganglion cysts can occur on tendons or at joints, from what > I've read. The podiatrist thought it was due to the second toe's tendon, > but I'm thinking it's from the joint at the second metatarsal - second > cuneiform. This is probably preferable to a stress fracture (it's soft > tissue and will heal faster). And the third cuneiform is at the base of the > third metatarsal.
> Based on your article, weak big toes can lead to second or third > metatarsal fractures. Due to my peculiar foot anatomy (talus angled down, > second cuneiform longer than normal, etc.), I got the problem higher up the > chain, on both the second and third. The effect is basically the same.
> And it suggests the course of action: strengthen that damned big toe. > Well, strengthen everything of course, but pay particular attention to the > big toe.
> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 9:21:19 AM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>> "He said there was also possibly a stress fracture on the third >> cuneiform."
>> You might find this of interest:
>> "Bent Big Toes And The Genesis Of Metatarsal Stress Fractures"
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Okay, so I went to my podiatrist, and I have mixed feelings about the >>> visit. Overall, it was positive, in that I learned things about my foot. >>> Also, the doctor had just returned a week earlier from a conference in >>> Hawaii, where at least one of the sessions was on barefoot running. And to >>> my surprise, it didn't seem like he came back with the attitude of >>> unconditional disapproval.
>>> However, between examining my feet and checking my X-rays, he said I was >>> not a good candidate for barefoot running. He said that one of my joints >>> was way too floppy. I don't remember if he gave the joint a name. But >>> basically, he held my heel in place firmly, then lifted my first metatarsal >>> up and down. He managed to bend my foot several inches downward. I mean, he >>> basically made my foot look like I was trying to stand on my toes, but my >>> heel was still as if my foot were dorsiflexed. He showed me how far that >>> joint normally moves, especially in people that the seminar would have >>> considered good candidates for barefoot running. He said my joint was at >>> least 3-4 times more flexible. Again, flexibility isn't always our friend!
>>> Next, he noted my very flat arches. And remember, I've been running >>> barefoot for about four months, so in theory, they probably used to be >>> slightly flatter, assuming I've gotten any arch lift at all. I know my toes >>> definitely seem to splay more (I wish I'd taken before pictures).
>>> But, on to the X-rays. The first thing he noted was that my talus >>> pointed inward too much. He said that it's nice for it to point at the big >>> toe. Mine probably pointed 3 inches inside the big toe (he drew a line to >>> show how far it pointed inward). Next, he noted from the side view that the >>> talus pointed at a spot on the ground below the posterior head of the first >>> metatarsal. He said, again, that it's nice for it to point at the ball of >>> the foot or the toes. Next, he noted that my second cuneiform extended >>> about half an inch in front of the first cuneiform. He said it's usually >>> about flush. He said based on what he learned at the conference, any one of >>> these conditions would be bad (or at least not good) for barefooting. The >>> only good news was that the bottom edge of my calcaneus pointed upward at >>> about the proper angle (he said 21 degrees).
>>> He did confirm my Morton's toe, though he didn't say if it was due to a >>> short first metatarsal or a long second. In fact, given that my second >>> cuneiform sticks forward an extra half inch, and this is where the back of >>> the second metatarsal connects, I almost wonder if the issue is really the >>> second cuneiform. (Interestingly, I've seen foot diagrams online that show >>> the first cuneiform being up to half an inch longer than the second, while >>> I'm in the opposite situation.)
>>> Now on to the diagnosis.
>>> His first thought was that it was a tendon. While he waited for the >>> X-rays to develop, he felt around the lump, prodded it, squished it left >>> and right until he got a feel for it. He did this at least three times. >>> Once before he examined the X-rays, which prompted him to order another >>> X-ray from a diagonal angle (the first set was a side shot and a top shot). >>> While he waited for the third X-ray to develop, he felt around it again and >>> explained the X-rays, as I described above. Then, after he examined the >>> last X-ray, he felt around it again, fairly confident of what it was.
>>> So, the verdict is, a ganglion cyst. He followed the tendon from the top >>> of the big toe up to the muscle, then did the same with the second toe. He >>> said that it was most likely on the second toe. He also said there is an >>> artery between the second and third tendons (he mentioned this artery is in >>> different spots in different people), and that a nerve will run with this >>> artery. That might explain the pain I experienced. He said that it seemed >>> like it had gotten slightly smaller just in the time that he'd been putting >>> all the pressure on it while examining it. He said that it might clear up >>> on its own, or it might not. He suggested a shot of cortisone could break >>> it up. I consented. The shot didn't hurt, though it did feel funny.
>>> I googled "ganglion cyst" when I got home. Once I saw the descriptions, >>> I realized that my dad had had one on his left wrist. Based on memory, I >>> think it was between the proximal attachments of the first and second >>> metacarpals. He had it removed surgically, and it came back within a few >>> years, so he had it removed again. So perhaps there's a genetic >>> predisposition as well.
>>> Anyway, one of the suggested treatments is striking a ganglion cyst with >>> a large tome, such as a Bible. This causes the cyst to burst, and the >>> fluid/soft tissue is generally reabsorbed by the body. I didn't see any >>> mention of cortisone on the wikipedia article, but I did find quite a few >>> results when I googled it. I'm guessing the principle is the same, just >>> cause the cyst to break up and then let the body reabsorb it?
>>> So, back to the X-rays. He said there was also possibly a stress >>> fracture on the third cuneiform. It was hard to tell, and he said stress >>> fractures can take three weeks to show up in an X-ray, and I was only one >>> week out from the injury (though it's been building with time, so we're not >>> sure). He prodded the area of the potential stress fracture, and there >>> wasn't any pain, and I couldn't remember pain in that spot. The pain has >>> always been approximately where the cyst is, about a half inch away. But, >>> half an inch isn't much, so again, we can't be sure. He wants to see me >>> back in two weeks.
>>> Finally, he did note that I'm getting a spur on the back of the fourth >>> metatarsal, where it connects to the cuboid. He said that the gaps between >>> my bones in this region are thin enough to concern him. I may be developing
>> Orthotics if used should be treated like a cast on a broken bone -- only as a short term aid to fix something that is wrong.
> That's not how they were explained to me, or how I experienced them. They had wide-ranging impact on how I walk and run. Impact that I still deal with today, 17 years after I cut them up. I was told that once I had adjusted to them, my entire gait would change, and it did - I was told that ALL walking and running should be done with the orthotics.
> I'm so glad I got rid of them.
I forgot to add that there are very few podiatrists who would agree with me.
This is why I qualified it, "as fast as possible". Orthotics do no good in
the long term for most people for whom they're prescribed... And they'll
prescribe them to anyone. Anyone who can pay, that is...
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Sean Butler <s...@2sparrows.org> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:03 AM, John Kemp wrote:
> >> Orthotics if used should be treated like a cast on a broken bone --
> only as a short term aid to fix something that is wrong.
> > That's not how they were explained to me, or how I experienced them.
> They had wide-ranging impact on how I walk and run. Impact that I still
> deal with today, 17 years after I cut them up. I was told that once I had
> adjusted to them, my entire gait would change, and it did - I was told that
> ALL walking and running should be done with the orthotics.
> > I'm so glad I got rid of them.
> I forgot to add that there are very few podiatrists who would agree with
> me.
> This is why I qualified it, "as fast as possible". Orthotics do no good in the long term for most people for whom they're prescribed...
I would say though that they also do no good in the short-term either :)
There are exceptions I know of - my friend was born severely pigeon-toed and had an operation while young to correct this. He had to wear orthotics for years as a child, but now he's able to walk normally as long as he doesn't walk too far. He believes that he wouldn't have been able to walk at all without the surgical and orthotic correction.
> And they'll prescribe them to anyone. Anyone who can pay, that is...
Yes, I felt like I'd been mugged. Not only did they not deal with my knee pain, they gave me new pains that have been more or less permanent until finally ditching the padded shoes. For all that, I paid just $400.
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Sean Butler <s...@2sparrows.org> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:03 AM, John Kemp wrote:
> >> Orthotics if used should be treated like a cast on a broken bone -- only as a short term aid to fix something that is wrong.
> > That's not how they were explained to me, or how I experienced them. They had wide-ranging impact on how I walk and run. Impact that I still deal with today, 17 years after I cut them up. I was told that once I had adjusted to them, my entire gait would change, and it did - I was told that ALL walking and running should be done with the orthotics.
> > I'm so glad I got rid of them.
> I forgot to add that there are very few podiatrists who would agree with me.
Morning update. I took my shoes off last night, didn't put them back on until this morning. Walked around barefoot, found myself consciously pushing that big toe down whenever I walked, which was often, but never more than a few dozen meters at a time to get from one point in the house to another. So it didn't get tired. Felt good. I can feel myself pulling the second toe up, not sure how to not do that. I don't want to push down with the second toe, but I don't see actively lifting it as beneficial in the long term either. I'm willing to put up with it for now, as I'm training my big toe, but I think straining muscles and tendons on the top of my foot is going to lead to problems. Not a concern yet, just an observation. I haven't used my big toes like this in... decades? ever? So I'm prepared for a learning curve.
This morning, I walked around barefoot until just before I had to leave for work. Once I put my shoes on, I noticed something kinda weird. Despite trying to push my big toes down, I found it to be ineffective. I still felt my knees caving inward, especially as my shin bent forward during the end of stance. By the time my knees were almost over my toes, I could feel my knees bending forward and inward, and I could feel my foot rolling inward. Pushing down hard with my big toes didn't help.
That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying. I think the rigidity of the orthotics, and the high heel lift, are both issues. I'm seeing the benefit of trying to get a minimal dress shoe for work, something with a thin sole so I can feel the ground, minimal or no lift at the heel, and flexibility in the sole so my feet can actually do their job.
Any recommendations for minimal dress shoes? I'm a computer programmer, work in a business office, wear slacks and polo shirts of button up collar shirts, so the shoes can't be too casual. I see questions like this all the time, and it seems like a scatter of answers. Moccasins seem to be a common theme, and I've seen mention of a brand called SofStar or something like that, which has a dressy moccasin (which got mixed reviews). I'm probably spelling the brand name wrong, because googling it didn't find the company's website (though I did find articles about it, so I'm close). My feet are already relatively wide, and I don't know how much wider they'll get as I continue my barefoot transition. So that needs to be considered. My foot is a 9.5W according to measuring devices, but since college I've always gone bigger, because I my right big toe doesn't like to push against the shoe. I literally wore holes in the uppers of my last pair of sneakers, where my big toes would stick out. And when I wear leather shoes with enough stretch, I can see my big toes trying desperately to push through when I stand and bear weight.
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:48:57 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
> Actually, that sounds like a good plan. The podiatrist suggested no more > barefoot running, but he didn't say anything about barefoot walking. ;)
> I tried a barefoot walk a couple hours ago, and I tried focusing on > pressing my big toes down. Wow, it did WONDERS for my pronation... for > about 200 yards, then my toes got tired, especially the left, and I > couldn't splay the left big toe anymore. Then the overpronation came back.
> Honestly, that was the first time I could actually FEEL the difference in > pronation. When pressing down the big toe, my knees felt further apart, my > ankles felt more stable, and I couldn't feel the medial portion of the arch > touch the ground. Holy crap, what a difference!
> I couldn't do it when I landed with my forefoot. But if I let my heel > touch first, I could splay my toes just before they touched down, and I > could put quite a bit of pressure down through the pad of the big toe, and > that's when I felt the change. And once my toes got tired, I couldn't keep > them splayed as much (the left one actually wouldn't stop touching the > second at all, and it even tried to tuck under it). Then I could feel my > arches flatten out, and I could feel my knees coming together. So at least > I know when to stop for the day.
> Wow.
> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:38:50 PM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>> "It ends up bringing me to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can >> either limp slowly or run slowly, but not walk."
>> Yeah, sounds like the hip extensors. Which connect to the IT band which >> passes over the outside (lateral) part of the knee. Your leg is probably a >> bit weaker than mine was, sounds like you're having more severe issues. >> You'll build up to IT Band pain. ;)
>> I would suggest you focus more on walking rather than running at first, >> until you get your leg strength more in line... Barefoot walking is >> actually much harder on the feet than barefoot running is, especially if >> you do it on a trail. And I mean barefoot, not Vibrams or some other shoe.
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, if things just don't keep piling on. The podiatrist mentioned a >>> bone spur on the back of the fourth metatarsal, where it was against the >>> cuboid. It was on the upper edge of the joint.
>>> So... I get a ganglion cyst on the base of the second metatarsal (where >>> it meets he 2nd cuneiform). I get a stress fracture on the 3rd cuneiform, >>> which meets the third metatarsal. I've got a bone spur on the fourth >>> metatarsal, where it meets the cuboid. Yes, big toe / first ray is really >>> screwing me up. The only metatarsal it didn't seem to affect was the fifth!
>>> Oh, wait. That's right. Two years ago, I got a bone spur on my >>> calcaneus. My podiatrist could see the bone spur on the side shot X-ray, >>> but not from the top. He said normally he would assume that the spur was on >>> the medial side of the calcaneus, due to the plantar fascia. But my pain >>> was most definitely on the lateral side. He was able to deduce that the >>> issue was a ligament that connects from the calcaneus to the fifth >>> metatarsal. The fifth metatarsal was pulling the ligament too tightly when >>> my arch collapses when I walk or stand. It had been inflamed or possibly >>> torn, due to my decision to start standing at work a couple weeks prior, so >>> I was standing all day. (I had lifted my computer and monitor up on top of >>> boxes to get the desired height.)
>>> There we have it, a clean sweep. I've managed to sustain injuries >>> related to all four of the metatarsals in my left foot, thanks to my >>> Morton's toe, hypermobile first ray, or weak big toe (or all three).
>>> In your blog post, you mentioned blisters on your fourth and fifth >>> metatarsal heads when you went barefooting. Interestingly, on my left foot, >>> but not my right, I have a callus beneath the fourth metatarsal, not quite >>> at the head, more at the base of the ball (the rear section of the pad).
>>> I'm going to go through your blog post a few times, and look at the >>> exercise suggestions. I think I can learn a lot from you, as we seem to be >>> having similar predicaments. By the way, where is the IT band. I've heard a >>> lot about it, but haven't looked it up yet to see where it is. I ask, >>> because when you mentioned the weak hips, it reminded me that on very long >>> walks (10+ miles), I get severe pain in the top outside area of my leg, >>> almost to the side of my butt, just below the hips. It ends up bringing me >>> to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can either limp slowly or run >>> slowly, but not walk.
>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:44:44 AM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>>> Ah, the metatarsal-cuboid joint! That was my first indication that >>>> something was wrong... :)
>>>> If you'll pardon more links, these are my stories about that joint:
>>>> "His conclusion was that I've got Morton's Foot*, but only in the "bad" >>>> foot. The good foot has adapted. Morton's Foot is essentially a high arch >>>> condition where the first metatarsal head is pulled behind the second >>>> metatarsal head. This is something that should correct itself with >>>> continued barefoot running, and he explained that he had Morton's Foot, and >>>> was able to correct it. This explains my observation that for most of my >>>> life, my "bad" foot has been the longer foot, but now the good one is. The >>>> arch has come down in the good foot, lengthening the foot, and allowing the >>>> first met. head to be equal to the second, as it should be."
>>>> Your description of your big toe sounds similar to mine. Sadly, I'm >>>> still working on this: it's not yet 100%. Happily, it no longer has any >>>> impact on my running, at least up to my current upper limit of 16 miles...
>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Wow, that was incredibly informative, and particularly pertinent. I've >>>>> been testing my big toe strength, and it's significantly weaker on the left >>>>> foot. Also, I was trying the toe yoga from the Jay Dicharry video that >>>>> someone linked to, and
I have a colleague who has a neuroma in one foot. He wears orthotics to
spread the bones and take pressure off the neuroma. Seems to work well for
him. So there are applications...
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:32 AM, John Kemp <j...@jkemp.net> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Tuck wrote:
> > This is why I qualified it, "as fast as possible". Orthotics do no good
> in the long term for most people for whom they're prescribed...
> I would say though that they also do no good in the short-term either :)
> There are exceptions I know of - my friend was born severely pigeon-toed
> and had an operation while young to correct this. He had to wear orthotics
> for years as a child, but now he's able to walk normally as long as he
> doesn't walk too far. He believes that he wouldn't have been able to walk
> at all without the surgical and orthotic correction.
> > And they'll prescribe them to anyone. Anyone who can pay, that is...
> Yes, I felt like I'd been mugged. Not only did they not deal with my knee
> pain, they gave me new pains that have been more or less permanent until
> finally ditching the padded shoes. For all that, I paid just $400.
> JohnK
> > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Sean Butler <s...@2sparrows.org> wrote:
> > On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:03 AM, John Kemp wrote:
> > >> Orthotics if used should be treated like a cast on a broken bone --
> only as a short term aid to fix something that is wrong.
> > > That's not how they were explained to me, or how I experienced them.
> They had wide-ranging impact on how I walk and run. Impact that I still
> deal with today, 17 years after I cut them up. I was told that once I had
> adjusted to them, my entire gait would change, and it did - I was told that
> ALL walking and running should be done with the orthotics.
> > > I'm so glad I got rid of them.
> > I forgot to add that there are very few podiatrists who would agree with
> me.
"That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do
their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying."
Bingo.
VivoBarefoot Ra will work. My favororite is the Merrell Tough Glove, if
you can find some still for sale... The Vivos are wider (too wide for my
taste). Softstar Dash in black can look decent, too. The pictures don't
do them justice. I met a fellow this summer who was wearing a pair, and
they looked really nice. Russell Moc has some nice shoes also, but the
wait time is long, and they're expensive.
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Jay Fox <jayd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Morning update. I took my shoes off last night, didn't put them back on
> until this morning. Walked around barefoot, found myself consciously
> pushing that big toe down whenever I walked, which was often, but never
> more than a few dozen meters at a time to get from one point in the house
> to another. So it didn't get tired. Felt good. I can feel myself pulling
> the second toe up, not sure how to not do that. I don't want to push down
> with the second toe, but I don't see actively lifting it as beneficial in
> the long term either. I'm willing to put up with it for now, as I'm
> training my big toe, but I think straining muscles and tendons on the top
> of my foot is going to lead to problems. Not a concern yet, just an
> observation. I haven't used my big toes like this in... decades? ever? So
> I'm prepared for a learning curve.
> This morning, I walked around barefoot until just before I had to leave
> for work. Once I put my shoes on, I noticed something kinda weird. Despite
> trying to push my big toes down, I found it to be ineffective. I still felt
> my knees caving inward, especially as my shin bent forward during the end
> of stance. By the time my knees were almost over my toes, I could feel my
> knees bending forward and inward, and I could feel my foot rolling inward.
> Pushing down hard with my big toes didn't help.
> That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do
> their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying.
> I think the rigidity of the orthotics, and the high heel lift, are both
> issues. I'm seeing the benefit of trying to get a minimal dress shoe for
> work, something with a thin sole so I can feel the ground, minimal or no
> lift at the heel, and flexibility in the sole so my feet can actually do
> their job.
> Any recommendations for minimal dress shoes? I'm a computer programmer,
> work in a business office, wear slacks and polo shirts of button up collar
> shirts, so the shoes can't be too casual. I see questions like this all the
> time, and it seems like a scatter of answers. Moccasins seem to be a common
> theme, and I've seen mention of a brand called SofStar or something like
> that, which has a dressy moccasin (which got mixed reviews). I'm probably
> spelling the brand name wrong, because googling it didn't find the
> company's website (though I did find articles about it, so I'm close). My
> feet are already relatively wide, and I don't know how much wider they'll
> get as I continue my barefoot transition. So that needs to be considered.
> My foot is a 9.5W according to measuring devices, but since college I've
> always gone bigger, because I my right big toe doesn't like to push against
> the shoe. I literally wore holes in the uppers of my last pair of sneakers,
> where my big toes would stick out. And when I wear leather shoes with
> enough stretch, I can see my big toes trying desperately to push through
> when I stand and bear weight.
> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:48:57 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>> Actually, that sounds like a good plan. The podiatrist suggested no more
>> barefoot running, but he didn't say anything about barefoot walking. ;)
>> I tried a barefoot walk a couple hours ago, and I tried focusing on
>> pressing my big toes down. Wow, it did WONDERS for my pronation... for
>> about 200 yards, then my toes got tired, especially the left, and I
>> couldn't splay the left big toe anymore. Then the overpronation came back.
>> Honestly, that was the first time I could actually FEEL the difference in
>> pronation. When pressing down the big toe, my knees felt further apart, my
>> ankles felt more stable, and I couldn't feel the medial portion of the arch
>> touch the ground. Holy crap, what a difference!
>> I couldn't do it when I landed with my forefoot. But if I let my heel
>> touch first, I could splay my toes just before they touched down, and I
>> could put quite a bit of pressure down through the pad of the big toe, and
>> that's when I felt the change. And once my toes got tired, I couldn't keep
>> them splayed as much (the left one actually wouldn't stop touching the
>> second at all, and it even tried to tuck under it). Then I could feel my
>> arches flatten out, and I could feel my knees coming together. So at least
>> I know when to stop for the day.
>> Wow.
>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:38:50 PM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>> "It ends up bringing me to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can
>>> either limp slowly or run slowly, but not walk."
>>> Yeah, sounds like the hip extensors. Which connect to the IT band which
>>> passes over the outside (lateral) part of the knee. Your leg is probably a
>>> bit weaker than mine was, sounds like you're having more severe issues.
>>> You'll build up to IT Band pain. ;)
>>> I would suggest you focus more on walking rather than running at first,
>>> until you get your leg strength more in line... Barefoot walking is
>>> actually much harder on the feet than barefoot running is, especially if
>>> you do it on a trail. And I mean barefoot, not Vibrams or some other shoe.
>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well, if things just don't keep piling on. The podiatrist mentioned a
>>>> bone spur on the back of the fourth metatarsal, where it was against the
>>>> cuboid. It was on the upper edge of the joint.
>>>> So... I get a ganglion cyst on the base of the second metatarsal (where
>>>> it meets he 2nd cuneiform). I get a stress fracture on the 3rd cuneiform,
>>>> which meets the third metatarsal. I've got a bone spur on the fourth
>>>> metatarsal, where it meets the cuboid. Yes, big toe / first ray is really
>>>> screwing me up. The only metatarsal it didn't seem to affect was the fifth!
>>>> Oh, wait. That's right. Two years ago, I got a bone spur on my
>>>> calcaneus. My podiatrist could see the bone spur on the side shot X-ray,
>>>> but not from the top. He said normally he would assume that the spur was on
>>>> the medial side of the calcaneus, due to the plantar fascia. But my pain
>>>> was most definitely on the lateral side. He was able to deduce that the
>>>> issue was a ligament that connects from the calcaneus to the fifth
>>>> metatarsal. The fifth metatarsal was pulling the ligament too tightly when
>>>> my arch collapses when I walk or stand. It had been inflamed or possibly
>>>> torn, due to my decision to start standing at work a couple weeks prior, so
>>>> I was standing all day. (I had lifted my computer and monitor up on top of
>>>> boxes to get the desired height.)
>>>> There we have it, a clean sweep. I've managed to sustain injuries
>>>> related to all four of the metatarsals in my left foot, thanks to my
>>>> Morton's toe, hypermobile first ray, or weak big toe (or all three).
>>>> In your blog post, you mentioned blisters on your fourth and fifth
>>>> metatarsal heads when you went barefooting. Interestingly, on my left foot,
>>>> but not my right, I have a callus beneath the fourth metatarsal, not quite
>>>> at the head, more at the base of the ball (the rear section of the pad).
>>>> I'm going to go through your blog post a few times, and look at the
>>>> exercise suggestions. I think I can learn a lot from you, as we seem to be
>>>> having similar predicaments. By the way, where is the IT band. I've heard a
>>>> lot about it, but haven't looked it up yet to see where it is. I ask,
>>>> because when you mentioned the weak hips, it reminded me that on very long
>>>> walks (10+ miles), I get severe pain in the top outside area of my leg,
>>>> almost to the side of my butt, just below the hips. It ends up bringing me
>>>> to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can either limp slowly or run
>>>> slowly, but not walk.
>>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:44:44 AM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>>>> Ah, the metatarsal-cuboid joint! That was my first indication that
>>>>> something was wrong... :)
>>>>> If you'll pardon more links, these are my stories about that joint:
>>>>> "His conclusion was that I've got Morton's Foot*, but only in the
>>>>> "bad" foot. The good foot has adapted. Morton's Foot is essentially a high
>>>>> arch condition where the first metatarsal head is pulled behind the second
>>>>> metatarsal head. This is something that should correct itself with
>>>>> continued barefoot running, and he explained that he had Morton's Foot, and
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do
> their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying."
> Bingo.
> VivoBarefoot Ra will work. My favororite is the Merrell Tough Glove, if
> you can find some still for sale... The Vivos are wider (too wide for my
> taste). Softstar Dash in black can look decent, too. The pictures don't
> do them justice. I met a fellow this summer who was wearing a pair, and
> they looked really nice. Russell Moc has some nice shoes also, but the
> wait time is long, and they're expensive.
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Jay Fox <jayd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Morning update. I took my shoes off last night, didn't put them back on
>> until this morning. Walked around barefoot, found myself consciously
>> pushing that big toe down whenever I walked, which was often, but never
>> more than a few dozen meters at a time to get from one point in the house
>> to another. So it didn't get tired. Felt good. I can feel myself pulling
>> the second toe up, not sure how to not do that. I don't want to push down
>> with the second toe, but I don't see actively lifting it as beneficial in
>> the long term either. I'm willing to put up with it for now, as I'm
>> training my big toe, but I think straining muscles and tendons on the top
>> of my foot is going to lead to problems. Not a concern yet, just an
>> observation. I haven't used my big toes like this in... decades? ever? So
>> I'm prepared for a learning curve.
>> This morning, I walked around barefoot until just before I had to leave
>> for work. Once I put my shoes on, I noticed something kinda weird. Despite
>> trying to push my big toes down, I found it to be ineffective. I still felt
>> my knees caving inward, especially as my shin bent forward during the end
>> of stance. By the time my knees were almost over my toes, I could feel my
>> knees bending forward and inward, and I could feel my foot rolling inward.
>> Pushing down hard with my big toes didn't help.
>> That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do
>> their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying.
>> I think the rigidity of the orthotics, and the high heel lift, are both
>> issues. I'm seeing the benefit of trying to get a minimal dress shoe for
>> work, something with a thin sole so I can feel the ground, minimal or no
>> lift at the heel, and flexibility in the sole so my feet can actually do
>> their job.
>> Any recommendations for minimal dress shoes? I'm a computer programmer,
>> work in a business office, wear slacks and polo shirts of button up collar
>> shirts, so the shoes can't be too casual. I see questions like this all the
>> time, and it seems like a scatter of answers. Moccasins seem to be a common
>> theme, and I've seen mention of a brand called SofStar or something like
>> that, which has a dressy moccasin (which got mixed reviews). I'm probably
>> spelling the brand name wrong, because googling it didn't find the
>> company's website (though I did find articles about it, so I'm close). My
>> feet are already relatively wide, and I don't know how much wider they'll
>> get as I continue my barefoot transition. So that needs to be considered.
>> My foot is a 9.5W according to measuring devices, but since college I've
>> always gone bigger, because I my right big toe doesn't like to push against
>> the shoe. I literally wore holes in the uppers of my last pair of sneakers,
>> where my big toes would stick out. And when I wear leather shoes with
>> enough stretch, I can see my big toes trying desperately to push through
>> when I stand and bear weight.
>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:48:57 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>>> Actually, that sounds like a good plan. The podiatrist suggested no more
>>> barefoot running, but he didn't say anything about barefoot walking. ;)
>>> I tried a barefoot walk a couple hours ago, and I tried focusing on
>>> pressing my big toes down. Wow, it did WONDERS for my pronation... for
>>> about 200 yards, then my toes got tired, especially the left, and I
>>> couldn't splay the left big toe anymore. Then the overpronation came back.
>>> Honestly, that was the first time I could actually FEEL the difference
>>> in pronation. When pressing down the big toe, my knees felt further apart,
>>> my ankles felt more stable, and I couldn't feel the medial portion of the
>>> arch touch the ground. Holy crap, what a difference!
>>> I couldn't do it when I landed with my forefoot. But if I let my heel
>>> touch first, I could splay my toes just before they touched down, and I
>>> could put quite a bit of pressure down through the pad of the big toe, and
>>> that's when I felt the change. And once my toes got tired, I couldn't keep
>>> them splayed as much (the left one actually wouldn't stop touching the
>>> second at all, and it even tried to tuck under it). Then I could feel my
>>> arches flatten out, and I could feel my knees coming together. So at least
>>> I know when to stop for the day.
>>> Wow.
>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:38:50 PM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>>> "It ends up bringing me to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can
>>>> either limp slowly or run slowly, but not walk."
>>>> Yeah, sounds like the hip extensors. Which connect to the IT band
>>>> which passes over the outside (lateral) part of the knee. Your leg is
>>>> probably a bit weaker than mine was, sounds like you're having more severe
>>>> issues. You'll build up to IT Band pain. ;)
>>>> I would suggest you focus more on walking rather than running at first,
>>>> until you get your leg strength more in line... Barefoot walking is
>>>> actually much harder on the feet than barefoot running is, especially if
>>>> you do it on a trail. And I mean barefoot, not Vibrams or some other shoe.
>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Well, if things just don't keep piling on. The podiatrist mentioned a
>>>>> bone spur on the back of the fourth metatarsal, where it was against the
>>>>> cuboid. It was on the upper edge of the joint.
>>>>> So... I get a ganglion cyst on the base of the second metatarsal
>>>>> (where it meets he 2nd cuneiform). I get a stress fracture on the 3rd
>>>>> cuneiform, which meets the third metatarsal. I've got a bone spur on the
>>>>> fourth metatarsal, where it meets the cuboid. Yes, big toe / first ray is
>>>>> really screwing me up. The only metatarsal it didn't seem to affect was the
>>>>> fifth!
>>>>> Oh, wait. That's right. Two years ago, I got a bone spur on my
>>>>> calcaneus. My podiatrist could see the bone spur on the side shot X-ray,
>>>>> but not from the top. He said normally he would assume that the spur was on
>>>>> the medial side of the calcaneus, due to the plantar fascia. But my pain
>>>>> was most definitely on the lateral side. He was able to deduce that the
>>>>> issue was a ligament that connects from the calcaneus to the fifth
>>>>> metatarsal. The fifth metatarsal was pulling the ligament too tightly when
>>>>> my arch collapses when I walk or stand. It had been inflamed or possibly
>>>>> torn, due to my decision to start standing at work a couple weeks prior, so
>>>>> I was standing all day. (I had lifted my computer and monitor up on top of
>>>>> boxes to get the desired height.)
>>>>> There we have it, a clean sweep. I've managed to sustain injuries
>>>>> related to all four of the metatarsals in my left foot, thanks to my
>>>>> Morton's toe, hypermobile first ray, or weak big toe (or all three).
>>>>> In your blog post, you mentioned blisters on your fourth and fifth
>>>>> metatarsal heads when you went barefooting. Interestingly, on my left foot,
>>>>> but not my right, I have a callus beneath the fourth metatarsal, not quite
>>>>> at the head, more at the base of the ball (the rear section of the pad).
>>>>> I'm going to go through your blog post a few times, and look at the
>>>>> exercise suggestions. I think I can learn a lot from you, as we seem to be
>>>>> having similar predicaments. By the way, where is the IT band. I've heard a
>>>>> lot about it, but haven't looked it up yet to see where it is. I ask,
>>>>> because when you mentioned the weak hips, it reminded me that on very long
>>>>> walks (10+ miles), I get severe pain in the top outside area of my leg,
>>>>> almost to the side of my butt, just below the hips. It ends up bringing me
>>>>> to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can either limp slowly or run
>>>>> slowly, but not walk.
>>>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:44:44 AM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>>>>> Ah, the metatarsal-cuboid joint! That was my first indication that
>>>>>> something was wrong... :)
>>>>>> If you'll pardon more links, these are my stories about that joint:
> I have a colleague who has a neuroma in one foot. He wears orthotics to spread the bones and take pressure off the neuroma. Seems to work well for him. So there are applications...
Yeah and I had some kind of tendon inflammation on the bottom of my foot, between the 2nd and 3rd metatarsals, that pops and every now and then gets a bit sore, though rarely now. But 18 -24 months ago it was bother some and a metatarsal pad really spread the load well and allowed me to get through Boston... I haven't used it in at least 12 months.
It still pops now and then, and likely always will. There's a calcium deposit where the inflammation was, that is not going away on it's own... :-( But it really doesn't cause any discomfort these days. That may be one reason I like a touch of cushion in my shoes. :-)
Sadly, the only Phinney and Volek book that Barnes and Nobles carries is The New Atkins for a New You. Probably a good book, but I assume what I want is either of the Art and Science of Low Carb books?
I guess I'll have to order it online. If Barnes and Noble doesn't carry it in stock, then I'm probably not going to find it in a brick and mortar store. I don't know, I guess maybe a healthy lifestyle store might carry something like this, but then I'd probably have to pay a premium anyway.
Wow, that's bizarre, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is almost $70 on Barnes and Nobles website, but only $19.95 on amazon.com, and both sites say that they're paperback editions. How does that work? Is there an alternate version that's... bigger?
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 3:13:05 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
> Ah, that looked familiar. I thought I'd read about that military doctor in > Tread Lightly (which, I'm pretty sure I picked up after seeing it > recommended on this group a few months ago). Checked the index (thank > goodness for indices!!), and yep, there it was, on pages 64-66.
> I've downloaded the PDF and will take a look. Between this, all your > links, and the Phinney and Volek book I plan to buy tomorrow (assuming my > local Barnes and Noble carries it), I'll have reading material for weeks. > (I read slowly.)
Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be verified :
" Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic acid."
You forgot the Monsanto attribution for that quote.
That "natural cross breeding" is called genetically modified organisms. Its
natural only because they used plant dna to make a new plant.
I'm guessing that the biggest difference between rapeseed and canola is
that Round Up (tm) kills one but not the other.
On Nov 9, 2012 10:22 PM, "JasonH" <jasonm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be
> verified :
> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact
> that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil
> contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts
> can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural
> crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola
> plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic
> acid."
> You forgot the Monsanto attribution for that quote. > That "natural cross breeding" is called genetically modified organisms. Its natural only because they used plant dna to make a new plant. > I'm guessing that the biggest difference between rapeseed and canola is that Round Up (tm) kills one but not the other.
> On Nov 9, 2012 10:22 PM, "JasonH" <jasonm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be verified :
> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic acid."
> You forgot the Monsanto attribution for that quote.
> That "natural cross breeding" is called genetically modified organisms. Its
> natural only because they used plant dna to make a new plant.
> I'm guessing that the biggest difference between rapeseed and canola is
> that Round Up (tm) kills one but not the other.
> On Nov 9, 2012 10:22 PM, "JasonH" <jasonm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be
>> verified :
>> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact
>> that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil
>> contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large
>> amounts
>> can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural
>> crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola
>> plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic
>> acid."
They found a line of rapeseeds that were low in euric acid. This was bred by conventional plant breeding in Canada. The name Canola comes partially from Canada. Monsanto engineered a bacterial gene that breaks down glyphosate, the active ingredient in roundup, into the Rapeseed plant canola variety. In the oil fraction of canola oil, there aren't going to be any of the Genetically modified protein. If you can get 'virgin' canola oil, without the hexane extracted crap, LA content in canola is lower than that or corn, soy, peanut, sunflower ... oils.
I recently found out that the left over fraction of after the oil extraction by hexane in soy is the source of many soy products, like soy sauce ... :{
On Friday, November 9, 2012 8:22:10 PM UTC-7, JasonH wrote:
> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be > verified :
> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact > that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil > contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts > can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural > crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola > plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic > acid."
No one replied, so I searched for "New Atkins" within this group, and the only post I found was my own. So I'm guessing that the New Atkins books isn't the one I should buy. But before I give up on it, has anyone read it? Is it worth getting, perhaps as a warm-up to the Art and Science books? I'm old-fashioned in some ways, so for example, I've purchased maybe one book online, ever. I like to go to the bookstore to buy books.
On Friday, November 9, 2012 3:43:07 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
> Sadly, the only Phinney and Volek book that Barnes and Nobles carries is > The New Atkins for a New You. Probably a good book, but I assume what I > want is either of the Art and Science of Low Carb books?
> I guess I'll have to order it online. If Barnes and Noble doesn't carry it > in stock, then I'm probably not going to find it in a brick and mortar > store. I don't know, I guess maybe a healthy lifestyle store might carry > something like this, but then I'd probably have to pay a premium anyway.
> Wow, that's bizarre, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is > almost $70 on Barnes and Nobles website, but only $19.95 on amazon.com, > and both sites say that they're paperback editions. How does that work? Is > there an alternate version that's... bigger?
> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 3:13:05 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>> Ah, that looked familiar. I thought I'd read about that military doctor >> in Tread Lightly (which, I'm pretty sure I picked up after seeing it >> recommended on this group a few months ago). Checked the index (thank >> goodness for indices!!), and yep, there it was, on pages 64-66.
>> I've downloaded the PDF and will take a look. Between this, all your >> links, and the Phinney and Volek book I plan to buy tomorrow (assuming my >> local Barnes and Noble carries it), I'll have reading material for weeks. >> (I read slowly.)
The Art and Science books are by two of the three authors of the New Atkins
book. Tim Noakes got started on his low-carb kick after reading it, so it
can't be all that bad.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Jay Fox <jayd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No one replied, so I searched for "New Atkins" within this group, and the
> only post I found was my own. So I'm guessing that the New Atkins books
> isn't the one I should buy. But before I give up on it, has anyone read it?
> Is it worth getting, perhaps as a warm-up to the Art and Science books? I'm
> old-fashioned in some ways, so for example, I've purchased maybe one book
> online, ever. I like to go to the bookstore to buy books.
> On Friday, November 9, 2012 3:43:07 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>> Sadly, the only Phinney and Volek book that Barnes and Nobles carries is
>> The New Atkins for a New You. Probably a good book, but I assume what I
>> want is either of the Art and Science of Low Carb books?
>> I guess I'll have to order it online. If Barnes and Noble doesn't carry
>> it in stock, then I'm probably not going to find it in a brick and mortar
>> store. I don't know, I guess maybe a healthy lifestyle store might carry
>> something like this, but then I'd probably have to pay a premium anyway.
>> Wow, that's bizarre, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is
>> almost $70 on Barnes and Nobles website, but only $19.95 on amazon.com,
>> and both sites say that they're paperback editions. How does that work? Is
>> there an alternate version that's... bigger?
>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 3:13:05 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>>> Ah, that looked familiar. I thought I'd read about that military doctor
>>> in Tread Lightly (which, I'm pretty sure I picked up after seeing it
>>> recommended on this group a few months ago). Checked the index (thank
>>> goodness for indices!!), and yep, there it was, on pages 64-66.
>>> I've downloaded the PDF and will take a look. Between this, all your
>>> links, and the Phinney and Volek book I plan to buy tomorrow (assuming my
>>> local Barnes and Noble carries it), I'll have reading material for weeks.
>>> (I read slowly.)
It depends on what you want. My wife has the new Atkins, it is more of a how-to book whereas the art and science book is more about the physiology of low carb. I preferred the art and science book due to its explanation, but I was targetting ketosis specifically not really an Atkins progression.
That seems to be the whole problem. You don't really get much of that to
make growing the plant feasible (financially). It only makes sense to grow
the stuff if you can triple (or better) your yield with mechanical and
chemical extraction.
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 10:13 PM, runs_with_kona <shin.n....@gmail.com>wrote:
> They found a line of rapeseeds that were low in euric acid. This was bred
> by conventional plant breeding in Canada. The name Canola comes partially
> from Canada. Monsanto engineered a bacterial gene that breaks down
> glyphosate, the active ingredient in roundup, into the Rapeseed plant
> canola variety. In the oil fraction of canola oil, there aren't going to be
> any of the Genetically modified protein.
> If you can get 'virgin' canola oil, without the hexane extracted crap, LA
> content in canola is lower than that or corn, soy, peanut, sunflower ...
> oils.
> I recently found out that the left over fraction of after the oil
> extraction by hexane in soy is the source of many soy products, like soy
> sauce ... :{
> On Friday, November 9, 2012 8:22:10 PM UTC-7, JasonH wrote:
>> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be
>> verified :
>> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact
>> that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil
>> contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts
>> can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural
>> crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola
>> plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic
>> acid."
That's sort of like getting a virgin blow-up sex doll... ;)
Here's a nice write-up on agave nectar... Raw, Natural, Organic Agave
Nectar, that is... (Two of the five words in that Official Name are not
lies, btw.)
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Doug Sims <wdsim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "If you can get 'virgin' canola oil,"
> That seems to be the whole problem. You don't really get much of that to
> make growing the plant feasible (financially). It only makes sense to grow
> the stuff if you can triple (or better) your yield with mechanical and
> chemical extraction.
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 10:13 PM, runs_with_kona <shin.n....@gmail.com>wrote:
>> They found a line of rapeseeds that were low in euric acid. This was
>> bred by conventional plant breeding in Canada. The name Canola comes
>> partially from Canada. Monsanto engineered a bacterial gene that breaks
>> down glyphosate, the active ingredient in roundup, into the Rapeseed plant
>> canola variety. In the oil fraction of canola oil, there aren't going to be
>> any of the Genetically modified protein.
>> If you can get 'virgin' canola oil, without the hexane extracted crap, LA
>> content in canola is lower than that or corn, soy, peanut, sunflower ...
>> oils.
>> I recently found out that the left over fraction of after the oil
>> extraction by hexane in soy is the source of many soy products, like soy
>> sauce ... :{
>> On Friday, November 9, 2012 8:22:10 PM UTC-7, JasonH wrote:
>>> Came across this in regards to canola oil, I wonder how this could be
>>> verified :
>>> " Misinformation about the safety of canola oil may stem from the fact
>>> that, years ago, oil was produced from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil
>>> contains very high levels of erucic acid, a compound that in large amounts
>>> can be toxic to humans. The canola plant was developed by natural
>>> crossbreeding from the rapeseed plant. Canola oil is produced from canola
>>> plants, not rapeseed plants. Canola plants have very low levels of erucic
>>> acid."
Another update. The lump on the top of my foot decreased in size pretty rapidly the day or two after the cortizone injection. However, the size bottomed out at maybe half the original size. It hasn't gotten smaller. It doesn't feel the least bit squishy anymore, and I can't move it around. Whatever "soft" tissue was involved has pretty much returned to normal, and what's left is... well, if not bone, then certainly something harder than a fluid-filled sac. So the cyst is still there, in some form. It isn't causing pain, and the possible stress fracture, if it was ever there, seems to be healing. I haven't had any pain of any kind on the top of my foot for several days now, despite a variety of activities.
Speaking of activities: I've been continuing to use the exercise bike in the gym downstairs at work, so I can get in MAF workouts of about an hour each (including warm up and cool down). There is also a rowing machine in the gym, so I've decided to start using that once or twice a week for 30-ish minutes at MAF. Yesterday was my first rowing workout. A little sore (in a good way, more tight than sore) in my back and shoulders, but everything else is fine.
I've been continuing to walk barefoot when I get the chance, which is mostly just at home. On Monday, however, I did try walking around the parking lot at work. Around the perimeter of the parking lot is some landscaping, which has a dirt bed and an unevenly distributed layer of tanbark. Walking on that was fairly enjoyable, and it reminded me of what someone in this thread said about hiking barefoot (Tuck?).
So today, I went to a local park, Woodward Park in northeast Fresno, which is actually fairly large. I hiked across a variety of surfaces (wet grass, mud, dry but green grass, dry dead grass with thorns and goatheads, tree roots, goose poo, dirt, gravel, cement, rock, etc.). I made sure to climb up and down a few small hills. I'm bad at estimating, but I'd say most of the hills were around 10%-20% grade, maybe the steepest were 25% or so. The tallest hill was maybe 20 meters, give or take. I hiked for about an hour, and loved it! The feel of all those textures under my feet, it was much more enjoyable than having shoes on.
For the most part, my soles handled all the different surfaces. Only two things seemed to cause actual "pain", small acorns and goatheads, and only when walking on stiffer surfaces. On grass or dirt, the goatheads didn't get pressed in very far, so I'd often go several paces before realizing that whatever was poking my foot was not coming off on its own. So I'd stop and remove the goathead and think, wow, those hurt a LOT more on pavement!
I made a point of seeking out uneven surfaces to walk on, like roots or fallen tree trunks or whatnot. I would try to step on them at various angles, not just in line with my foot, to give my feet a good workout.
Despite an hour's walk and at least two miles covered, I didn't experience any pain on the top of my foot. My heart rate was anywhere from 110-150, depending on steepness, so I think I'll rotate this in for one or two of my weekly MAF workouts (my MAF target is 135, assuming I'm out of shape). As it gets easier and easier, I might start running short stretches here and there.
On Friday, November 9, 2012 7:36:48 AM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
> Morning update. I took my shoes off last night, didn't put them back on > until this morning. Walked around barefoot, found myself consciously > pushing that big toe down whenever I walked, which was often, but never > more than a few dozen meters at a time to get from one point in the house > to another. So it didn't get tired. Felt good. I can feel myself pulling > the second toe up, not sure how to not do that. I don't want to push down > with the second toe, but I don't see actively lifting it as beneficial in > the long term either. I'm willing to put up with it for now, as I'm > training my big toe, but I think straining muscles and tendons on the top > of my foot is going to lead to problems. Not a concern yet, just an > observation. I haven't used my big toes like this in... decades? ever? So > I'm prepared for a learning curve.
> This morning, I walked around barefoot until just before I had to leave > for work. Once I put my shoes on, I noticed something kinda weird. Despite > trying to push my big toes down, I found it to be ineffective. I still felt > my knees caving inward, especially as my shin bent forward during the end > of stance. By the time my knees were almost over my toes, I could feel my > knees bending forward and inward, and I could feel my foot rolling inward. > Pushing down hard with my big toes didn't help.
> That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do > their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying. > I think the rigidity of the orthotics, and the high heel lift, are both > issues. I'm seeing the benefit of trying to get a minimal dress shoe for > work, something with a thin sole so I can feel the ground, minimal or no > lift at the heel, and flexibility in the sole so my feet can actually do > their job.
> Any recommendations for minimal dress shoes? I'm a computer programmer, > work in a business office, wear slacks and polo shirts of button up collar > shirts, so the shoes can't be too casual. I see questions like this all the > time, and it seems like a scatter of answers. Moccasins seem to be a common > theme, and I've seen mention of a brand called SofStar or something like > that, which has a dressy moccasin (which got mixed reviews). I'm probably > spelling the brand name wrong, because googling it didn't find the > company's website (though I did find articles about it, so I'm close). My > feet are already relatively wide, and I don't know how much wider they'll > get as I continue my barefoot transition. So that needs to be considered. > My foot is a 9.5W according to measuring devices, but since college I've > always gone bigger, because I my right big toe doesn't like to push against > the shoe. I literally wore holes in the uppers of my last pair of sneakers, > where my big toes would stick out. And when I wear leather shoes with > enough stretch, I can see my big toes trying desperately to push through > when I stand and bear weight.
> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:48:57 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>> Actually, that sounds like a good plan. The podiatrist suggested no more >> barefoot running, but he didn't say anything about barefoot walking. ;)
>> I tried a barefoot walk a couple hours ago, and I tried focusing on >> pressing my big toes down. Wow, it did WONDERS for my pronation... for >> about 200 yards, then my toes got tired, especially the left, and I >> couldn't splay the left big toe anymore. Then the overpronation came back.
>> Honestly, that was the first time I could actually FEEL the difference in >> pronation. When pressing down the big toe, my knees felt further apart, my >> ankles felt more stable, and I couldn't feel the medial portion of the arch >> touch the ground. Holy crap, what a difference!
>> I couldn't do it when I landed with my forefoot. But if I let my heel >> touch first, I could splay my toes just before they touched down, and I >> could put quite a bit of pressure down through the pad of the big toe, and >> that's when I felt the change. And once my toes got tired, I couldn't keep >> them splayed as much (the left one actually wouldn't stop touching the >> second at all, and it even tried to tuck under it). Then I could feel my >> arches flatten out, and I could feel my knees coming together. So at least >> I know when to stop for the day.
>> Wow.
>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:38:50 PM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>> "It ends up bringing me to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can >>> either limp slowly or run slowly, but not walk."
>>> Yeah, sounds like the hip extensors. Which connect to the IT band which >>> passes over the outside (lateral) part of the knee. Your leg is probably a >>> bit weaker than mine was, sounds like you're having more severe issues. >>> You'll build up to IT Band pain. ;)
>>> I would suggest you focus more on walking rather than running at first, >>> until you get your leg strength more in line... Barefoot walking is >>> actually much harder on the feet than barefoot running is, especially if >>> you do it on a trail. And I mean barefoot, not Vibrams or some other shoe.
>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well, if things just don't keep piling on. The podiatrist mentioned a >>>> bone spur on the back of the fourth metatarsal, where it was against the >>>> cuboid. It was on the upper edge of the joint.
>>>> So... I get a ganglion cyst on the base of the second metatarsal (where >>>> it meets he 2nd cuneiform). I get a stress fracture on the 3rd cuneiform, >>>> which meets the third metatarsal. I've got a bone spur on the fourth >>>> metatarsal, where it meets the cuboid. Yes, big toe / first ray is really >>>> screwing me up. The only metatarsal it didn't seem to affect was the fifth!
>>>> Oh, wait. That's right. Two years ago, I got a bone spur on my >>>> calcaneus. My podiatrist could see the bone spur on the side shot X-ray, >>>> but not from the top. He said normally he would assume that the spur was on >>>> the medial side of the calcaneus, due to the plantar fascia. But my pain >>>> was most definitely on the lateral side. He was able to deduce that the >>>> issue was a ligament that connects from the calcaneus to the fifth >>>> metatarsal. The fifth metatarsal was pulling the ligament too tightly when >>>> my arch collapses when I walk or stand. It had been inflamed or possibly >>>> torn, due to my decision to start standing at work a couple weeks prior, so >>>> I was
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Jay Fox <jayd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another update. The lump on the top of my foot decreased in size pretty
> rapidly the day or two after the cortizone injection. However, the size
> bottomed out at maybe half the original size. It hasn't gotten smaller. It
> doesn't feel the least bit squishy anymore, and I can't move it around.
> Whatever "soft" tissue was involved has pretty much returned to normal, and
> what's left is... well, if not bone, then certainly something harder than a
> fluid-filled sac. So the cyst is still there, in some form. It isn't
> causing pain, and the possible stress fracture, if it was ever there, seems
> to be healing. I haven't had any pain of any kind on the top of my foot for
> several days now, despite a variety of activities.
> Speaking of activities: I've been continuing to use the exercise bike in
> the gym downstairs at work, so I can get in MAF workouts of about an hour
> each (including warm up and cool down). There is also a rowing machine in
> the gym, so I've decided to start using that once or twice a week for
> 30-ish minutes at MAF. Yesterday was my first rowing workout. A little sore
> (in a good way, more tight than sore) in my back and shoulders, but
> everything else is fine.
> I've been continuing to walk barefoot when I get the chance, which is
> mostly just at home. On Monday, however, I did try walking around the
> parking lot at work. Around the perimeter of the parking lot is some
> landscaping, which has a dirt bed and an unevenly distributed layer of
> tanbark. Walking on that was fairly enjoyable, and it reminded me of what
> someone in this thread said about hiking barefoot (Tuck?).
> So today, I went to a local park, Woodward Park in northeast Fresno, which
> is actually fairly large. I hiked across a variety of surfaces (wet grass,
> mud, dry but green grass, dry dead grass with thorns and goatheads, tree
> roots, goose poo, dirt, gravel, cement, rock, etc.). I made sure to climb
> up and down a few small hills. I'm bad at estimating, but I'd say most of
> the hills were around 10%-20% grade, maybe the steepest were 25% or so. The
> tallest hill was maybe 20 meters, give or take. I hiked for about an hour,
> and loved it! The feel of all those textures under my feet, it was much
> more enjoyable than having shoes on.
> For the most part, my soles handled all the different surfaces. Only two
> things seemed to cause actual "pain", small acorns and goatheads, and only
> when walking on stiffer surfaces. On grass or dirt, the goatheads didn't
> get pressed in very far, so I'd often go several paces before realizing
> that whatever was poking my foot was not coming off on its own. So I'd stop
> and remove the goathead and think, wow, those hurt a LOT more on pavement!
> I made a point of seeking out uneven surfaces to walk on, like roots or
> fallen tree trunks or whatnot. I would try to step on them at various
> angles, not just in line with my foot, to give my feet a good workout.
> Despite an hour's walk and at least two miles covered, I didn't experience
> any pain on the top of my foot. My heart rate was anywhere from 110-150,
> depending on steepness, so I think I'll rotate this in for one or two of my
> weekly MAF workouts (my MAF target is 135, assuming I'm out of shape). As
> it gets easier and easier, I might start running short stretches here and
> there.
> On Friday, November 9, 2012 7:36:48 AM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>> Morning update. I took my shoes off last night, didn't put them back on
>> until this morning. Walked around barefoot, found myself consciously
>> pushing that big toe down whenever I walked, which was often, but never
>> more than a few dozen meters at a time to get from one point in the house
>> to another. So it didn't get tired. Felt good. I can feel myself pulling
>> the second toe up, not sure how to not do that. I don't want to push down
>> with the second toe, but I don't see actively lifting it as beneficial in
>> the long term either. I'm willing to put up with it for now, as I'm
>> training my big toe, but I think straining muscles and tendons on the top
>> of my foot is going to lead to problems. Not a concern yet, just an
>> observation. I haven't used my big toes like this in... decades? ever? So
>> I'm prepared for a learning curve.
>> This morning, I walked around barefoot until just before I had to leave
>> for work. Once I put my shoes on, I noticed something kinda weird. Despite
>> trying to push my big toes down, I found it to be ineffective. I still felt
>> my knees caving inward, especially as my shin bent forward during the end
>> of stance. By the time my knees were almost over my toes, I could feel my
>> knees bending forward and inward, and I could feel my foot rolling inward.
>> Pushing down hard with my big toes didn't help.
>> That's probably why my big toes are so weak. Even when they try to do
>> their job, the shoes are preventing them. So they don't even bother trying.
>> I think the rigidity of the orthotics, and the high heel lift, are both
>> issues. I'm seeing the benefit of trying to get a minimal dress shoe for
>> work, something with a thin sole so I can feel the ground, minimal or no
>> lift at the heel, and flexibility in the sole so my feet can actually do
>> their job.
>> Any recommendations for minimal dress shoes? I'm a computer programmer,
>> work in a business office, wear slacks and polo shirts of button up collar
>> shirts, so the shoes can't be too casual. I see questions like this all the
>> time, and it seems like a scatter of answers. Moccasins seem to be a common
>> theme, and I've seen mention of a brand called SofStar or something like
>> that, which has a dressy moccasin (which got mixed reviews). I'm probably
>> spelling the brand name wrong, because googling it didn't find the
>> company's website (though I did find articles about it, so I'm close). My
>> feet are already relatively wide, and I don't know how much wider they'll
>> get as I continue my barefoot transition. So that needs to be considered.
>> My foot is a 9.5W according to measuring devices, but since college I've
>> always gone bigger, because I my right big toe doesn't like to push against
>> the shoe. I literally wore holes in the uppers of my last pair of sneakers,
>> where my big toes would stick out. And when I wear leather shoes with
>> enough stretch, I can see my big toes trying desperately to push through
>> when I stand and bear weight.
>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:48:57 PM UTC-8, Jay Fox wrote:
>>> Actually, that sounds like a good plan. The podiatrist suggested no more
>>> barefoot running, but he didn't say anything about barefoot walking. ;)
>>> I tried a barefoot walk a couple hours ago, and I tried focusing on
>>> pressing my big toes down. Wow, it did WONDERS for my pronation... for
>>> about 200 yards, then my toes got tired, especially the left, and I
>>> couldn't splay the left big toe anymore. Then the overpronation came back.
>>> Honestly, that was the first time I could actually FEEL the difference
>>> in pronation. When pressing down the big toe, my knees felt further apart,
>>> my ankles felt more stable, and I couldn't feel the medial portion of the
>>> arch touch the ground. Holy crap, what a difference!
>>> I couldn't do it when I landed with my forefoot. But if I let my heel
>>> touch first, I could splay my toes just before they touched down, and I
>>> could put quite a bit of pressure down through the pad of the big toe, and
>>> that's when I felt the change. And once my toes got tired, I couldn't keep
>>> them splayed as much (the left one actually wouldn't stop touching the
>>> second at all, and it even tried to tuck under it). Then I could feel my
>>> arches flatten out, and I could feel my knees coming together. So at least
>>> I know when to stop for the day.
>>> Wow.
>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:38:50 PM UTC-8, Tuck wrote:
>>>> "It ends up bringing me to a slow limping pace, and ironically, I can
>>>> either limp slowly or run slowly, but not walk."
>>>> Yeah, sounds like the hip extensors. Which connect to the IT band
>>>> which passes over the outside (lateral) part of the knee. Your leg is
>>>> probably a bit weaker than mine was, sounds like you're having more severe
>>>> issues. You'll build up to IT Band pain. ;)
>>>> I would suggest you focus more on walking rather than running at first,
>>>> until you get your leg strength more in line... Barefoot walking is
>>>> actually much harder on the feet than barefoot running is, especially if
>>>> you do it on a trail. And I mean barefoot, not Vibrams or some other shoe.
>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Jay Fox <jay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Well, if things just don't keep piling on. The podiatrist mentioned a
>>>>> bone spur on the back of the fourth metatarsal, where it was against the
>>>>> cuboid. It was on the upper edge of the joint.
>>>>> So... I get a ganglion cyst on the base of the second metatarsal
>>>>> (where it meets he 2nd cuneiform). I get a stress fracture on the 3rd
>>>>> cuneiform, which meets the third metatarsal. I've got a bone spur on the
>>>>> fourth metatarsal, where it meets the cuboid. Yes, big toe / first ray is
>>>>> really screwing me up. The only metatarsal it didn't seem to affect was the
>>>>> fifth!
>>>>> Oh, wait. That's right. Two years ago, I got a bone spur on my
>>>>> calcaneus. My podiatrist could see the bone spur on the side shot X-ray,
>>>>> but not from the top. He said normally he would assume that the spur was on
>>>>> the medial side of the calcaneus, due to the plantar fascia. But my
