Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
one of annoyance.
"...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
University...."
Here, here to that observation.
"...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
“simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
"“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
often has its head in the sand.
"In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
-- _________________________________
Tucker
"Dr. Richie says he would definitely caution against using the
minimalist shoes for any patient with a previous history of plantar
fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles tendinopathy or calf muscle
injury."
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
> [...]
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
Hehe... Yeah that is ridiculous. Those are the exact things that are
caused by bad running technique which is encouraged by built up
shoes. You CANNOT run properly in those built-up shoes. Minimalist/
barefoot does not mean instant good technique but it has to be the
first step.
Jason
On Dec 7, 10:34 am, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Dr. Richie says he would definitely caution against using the
> minimalist shoes for any patient with a previous history of plantar
> fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles tendinopathy or calf muscle
> injury."
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> > Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> > There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> > one of annoyance.
> > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > University...."
> > Here, here to that observation.
> > "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> > prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> > “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> > "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> > of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> > Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> > shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> > This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> > medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> > school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> > medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> > Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> > often has its head in the sand.
> > "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> > stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> > disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> > more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> > link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> > and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> > volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> > Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> > one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> > barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Tucker
"“This does two things. It reduces the impact of heel strike, which
improves shock absorption throughout the rearfoot and midfoot,” notes
Dr. Sanders, who is in private practice in San Francisco. “(These
shoes) also alter the center of gravity forward with the feet being
centered below the hip, which is a much more stable alignment.”
In terms of potential weaknesses of these shoes, Dr. Richie says a
lack of cushioning may increase the risk of certain injuries. In his
clinical experience, he has seen many running injuries that were
“impact-related and could be related to shoes with poor cushioning.”"
So VFFs can reduce impact and improve shock absorbtion, but also lead
to more impact related injuries because it doesn't have cushioning?
On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
<andy.southerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great pickup. One thing I noticed:
> "“This does two things. It reduces the impact of heel strike, which
> improves shock absorption throughout the rearfoot and midfoot,” notes
> Dr. Sanders, who is in private practice in San Francisco. “(These
> shoes) also alter the center of gravity forward with the feet being
> centered below the hip, which is a much more stable alignment.”
> In terms of potential weaknesses of these shoes, Dr. Richie says a
> lack of cushioning may increase the risk of certain injuries. In his
> clinical experience, he has seen many running injuries that were
> “impact-related and could be related to shoes with poor cushioning.”"
> So VFFs can reduce impact and improve shock absorbtion, but also lead
> to more impact related injuries because it doesn't have cushioning?
> On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
>> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
>> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
>> one of annoyance.
>> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
>> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
>> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
>> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
>> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
>> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
>> University...."
>> Here, here to that observation.
>> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
>> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
>> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
>> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
>> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
>> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
>> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
>> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
>> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
>> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
>> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
>> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
>> often has its head in the sand.
>> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
>> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
>> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
>> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
>> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
>> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
>> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
>> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
>> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
>> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
>> --
>> _________________________________
>> Tucker
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Huaraches, FiveFingers..." group hosted by Barefoot Ted http://barefootted.com > To post to this group, send email to huaraches@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to huaraches+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches?hl=en
"...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
University...."
... is that since Alfredson proved a 100% correction rate with pre-
surgical achilles tendinopathy cases in 1998 (more than a decade ago)
the primary protocol utilised by manual therapists in rehabilitation
is an "eccentric loading protocol".
When I began to understand the benefits of barefoot running I found
research which said barefoot runners get less achilles problems. Then
I began to understand the biomechanics of barefoot, and that barefoot
runners tend to almost invariably toe-strike resulting in significant
eccentric loading through the triceps surae (calf). Finally, it
dawned on me that the reason for the decreased achilles problems in
barefoot populations is that running naturally is essentially an
"eccentric loading protocol" every time you run!!!
The eccentric loading is, first, believed to inhibit
neovascularisation (growth of new blood vessels) which are causative
in achilles tendinopathy, and second, is the muscle action which
causes most microtrauma and therefore a greater adaptive response to
training. It is also the reason that most people going barefoot for
the first time will get a terrible case of DOMS!!
Perhaps Dr Richie is SO much of an expert that he hasn't picked up a
research paper on the Achilles in the last decade or so?!!!
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Primal Matt <mattwall...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What's really amusing about this...
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> ... is that since Alfredson proved a 100% correction rate with pre-
> surgical achilles tendinopathy cases in 1998 (more than a decade ago)
> the primary protocol utilised by manual therapists in rehabilitation
> is an "eccentric loading protocol".
> When I began to understand the benefits of barefoot running I found
> research which said barefoot runners get less achilles problems. Then
> I began to understand the biomechanics of barefoot, and that barefoot
> runners tend to almost invariably toe-strike resulting in significant
> eccentric loading through the triceps surae (calf). Finally, it
> dawned on me that the reason for the decreased achilles problems in
> barefoot populations is that running naturally is essentially an
> "eccentric loading protocol" every time you run!!!
> The eccentric loading is, first, believed to inhibit
> neovascularisation (growth of new blood vessels) which are causative
> in achilles tendinopathy, and second, is the muscle action which
> causes most microtrauma and therefore a greater adaptive response to
> training. It is also the reason that most people going barefoot for
> the first time will get a terrible case of DOMS!!
> Perhaps Dr Richie is SO much of an expert that he hasn't picked up a
> research paper on the Achilles in the last decade or so?!!!
> Thanks for posting the link.
> Best wishes,
> Matt
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Huaraches, FiveFingers..." group hosted by Barefoot Ted http://barefootted.com > To post to this group, send email to huaraches@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to huaraches+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches?hl=en
Almost makes me want to write a Letter to the Editor of Podiatry Today
on behalf of this group saying how disappointed we are with the
scholarship in that article. Writing a Letter to the Editor of a
podiatry publication, however, is about as low as it gets on my list
of things I want to have done before I die.
On Dec 7, 2:58 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He's a podiatrist; a FOOT doctor. The Achilles is above the ankle. ;)
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Primal Matt <mattwall...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > What's really amusing about this...
> > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > University...."
> > ... is that since Alfredson proved a 100% correction rate with pre-
> > surgical achilles tendinopathy cases in 1998 (more than a decade ago)
> > the primary protocol utilised by manual therapists in rehabilitation
> > is an "eccentric loading protocol".
> > When I began to understand the benefits of barefoot running I found
> > research which said barefoot runners get less achilles problems. Then
> > I began to understand the biomechanics of barefoot, and that barefoot
> > runners tend to almost invariably toe-strike resulting in significant
> > eccentric loading through the triceps surae (calf). Finally, it
> > dawned on me that the reason for the decreased achilles problems in
> > barefoot populations is that running naturally is essentially an
> > "eccentric loading protocol" every time you run!!!
> > The eccentric loading is, first, believed to inhibit
> > neovascularisation (growth of new blood vessels) which are causative
> > in achilles tendinopathy, and second, is the muscle action which
> > causes most microtrauma and therefore a greater adaptive response to
> > training. It is also the reason that most people going barefoot for
> > the first time will get a terrible case of DOMS!!
> > Perhaps Dr Richie is SO much of an expert that he hasn't picked up a
> > research paper on the Achilles in the last decade or so?!!!
> > Thanks for posting the link.
> > Best wishes,
> > Matt
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Huaraches, FiveFingers..." group hosted by Barefoot Tedhttp://barefootted.com > > To post to this group, send email to huaraches@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to huaraches+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/huaraches?hl=en
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker- Hide quoted text -
“If the running shoe is not a match to your foot type and running
biomechanics, injuries will occur,” notes Dr. Sanders. “In addition to
shoes, I think too many runners have not been adequately coached in
proper form. The best running shoe design in the world coupled with
poor running form has little chance of benefitting a runner.”
So in other words, if your bare foot is not a match to your foot type
you will get hurt. Wow. Do these people have to go to medical
school?
On Dec 7, 3:27 pm, Andy Southerland <andy.southerl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Almost makes me want to write a Letter to the Editor of Podiatry Today
> on behalf of this group saying how disappointed we are with the
> scholarship in that article. Writing a Letter to the Editor of a
> podiatry publication, however, is about as low as it gets on my list
> of things I want to have done before I die.
> On Dec 7, 2:58 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > He's a podiatrist; a FOOT doctor. The Achilles is above the ankle. ;)
> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Primal Matt <mattwall...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > What's really amusing about this...
> > > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > > University...."
> > > ... is that since Alfredson proved a 100% correction rate with pre-
> > > surgical achilles tendinopathy cases in 1998 (more than a decade ago)
> > > the primary protocol utilised by manual therapists in rehabilitation
> > > is an "eccentric loading protocol".
> > > When I began to understand the benefits of barefoot running I found
> > > research which said barefoot runners get less achilles problems. Then
> > > I began to understand the biomechanics of barefoot, and that barefoot
> > > runners tend to almost invariably toe-strike resulting in significant
> > > eccentric loading through the triceps surae (calf). Finally, it
> > > dawned on me that the reason for the decreased achilles problems in
> > > barefoot populations is that running naturally is essentially an
> > > "eccentric loading protocol" every time you run!!!
> > > The eccentric loading is, first, believed to inhibit
> > > neovascularisation (growth of new blood vessels) which are causative
> > > in achilles tendinopathy, and second, is the muscle action which
> > > causes most microtrauma and therefore a greater adaptive response to
> > > training. It is also the reason that most people going barefoot for
> > > the first time will get a terrible case of DOMS!!
> > > Perhaps Dr Richie is SO much of an expert that he hasn't picked up a
> > > research paper on the Achilles in the last decade or so?!!!
> > > Thanks for posting the link.
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Matt
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Huaraches, FiveFingers..." group hosted by Barefoot Tedhttp://barefootted.com > > > To post to this group, send email to huaraches@googlegroups.com
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to huaraches+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/huaraches?hl=en
"...and found that barefoot running led to more plantarflexion at the
ankle"
"...increased eversion of the forefoot"
Is eversion or plantarflexion good or bad? :)
"...caution against using the minimalist shoes for any patient with a
previous history of plantar fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles
tendinopathy or calf muscle injury."
I'm glad I didn't know about this warning when I switched to VFFs in
August. I was limping badly, suffering from heel spurs and insertional
Achilles tendonitis. Now, I can walk down the street without pain. I
must have had the wrong kind of tendonitis for received wisdom to be
effective.
On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
It is refreshing, though, that some podiatrists are engaging in a
little sole-searching (pun intended). I think that a real scientific,
empirical inquiry into this whole question will only serve to validate
the experiences of a lot of the people on this board. Bring it on!
On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
Plantar fascia are part of the FOOT. Eccentric loading happens when
the foot is allowed to flatten. Motion control and arch support
device inhibit this altogether.
On Dec 7, 1:58 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
There are so many discussions about "lack of data." Is no one working
on studying large groups of barefoot runners or, better yet, people
that are willing to convert during a study (would be a great Ph.D
study)?
Also, I have yet to see anyone report that barefoot running has been
detrimental in the way these podiatrists suggest. Anyone out there
have major problems and give up trying to convert? Just asking for
conversation's sake...
My other thought is that these doctors just aren't seeing the success
of barefoot running because most of us, at some point, gave up going
to their offices :)
On Dec 7, 6:46 pm, runs_with_kona <shin.n....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Plantar fascia are part of the FOOT. Eccentric loading happens when
> the foot is allowed to flatten. Motion control and arch support
> device inhibit this altogether.
> On Dec 7, 1:58 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > He's a podiatrist; a FOOT doctor. The Achilles is above the ankle. ;)
The advice to not run BF or minimalist is true. BUT only if you if
you do it too much too soon. I know from experience. I had plantar
fascitus before and got it running in VFFs. But I took off a few
weeks, then took it easy for a few weeks. I stretched my achillies and
plantar fascia. And now about 2 months later, I only have a hint of
PF. So this advice does not account for the gradual positive changes
that can occur as you run minimalist.
On Dec 7, 11:34 am, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Dr. Richie says he would definitely caution against using the
> minimalist shoes for any patient with a previous history of plantar
> fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles tendinopathy or calf muscle
> injury."
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> > Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> > There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> > one of annoyance.
> > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > University...."
> > Here, here to that observation.
> > "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> > prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> > “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> > "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> > of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> > Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> > shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> > This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> > medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> > school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> > medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> > Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> > often has its head in the sand.
> > "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> > stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> > disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> > more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> > link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> > and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> > volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> > Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> > one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> > barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Tucker
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker- Hide quoted text -
You have really touched on the blind spots that health care providers
(physicians, podiatrists, etc) suffer from:
1. They only see people who come to them reporting problems. They
have no idea of how many people are wandering around out there with
the same "findings" that do not report problems (selection bias).
2. They must be ever-mindful of malpractice/litigation, so they
usually take the most conservative approach. If they tell you not to
do something and you do it anyway, it's on you.
3. They are not trained in exercise, nutrition, or biomechanics;
therefore to ask them questions about these areas asks them to render
opinions about things they know little more than the patient. They
often just parrot what they have heard or been taught, no matter how
faulty the information is, but their status as physicians gives the
opinion more authority than it deserves.
4. They tend to be reinforced in their practices because if they tell
you to do something and you don't come back, they figure whatever they
had you do worked. If you come back and tell them the first thing
didn't work, they'll continue down their laundry list of possible
remedies. But often people won't return to a physician whose advice
turned out to be totally ineffective. For example, it is well known
that many people who have received hip/knee replacements have
stretched beyond physicians' cautions against running with out any
problems: do you think the people have returned to the physicians to
tell them "you were wrong?". In my own shoulder surgery case from a
year ago, I'l love to tell the surgeon and PT in more detail about how
I pushed the envelope during my recovery, but they don't have the time
to hear it and I don't have the time to convince them.
5, As for research on head-to-head performance of shod to barefoot,
the best you can do for now is compare biomechanical outcomes. It
would be very difficult to get good surveillance data on footwear,
exercise habits, and other attributes from those presenting with
injuries--and you have the same selection bias from 1 above. It would
be a very tricky research design to develop specific research
questions, determine how to collect the data and from whom, and then
how to analyze (this from the experience of my own dissertation
project).
Many of the tidbits that have come out in the literature--about lower
forces on the knees during barefoot vs shod walking--are some of the
things we know so far that we can point out to those ignorant of the
effects of barefoot walking/running.
Teresa Merrick, PhD
Bellevue, NE
On Dec 7, 10:03 pm, alchemist88 <brianlcon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are so many discussions about "lack of data." Is no one working
> on studying large groups of barefoot runners or, better yet, people
> that are willing to convert during a study (would be a great Ph.D
> study)?
> Also, I have yet to see anyone report that barefoot running has been
> detrimental in the way these podiatrists suggest. Anyone out there
> have major problems and give up trying to convert? Just asking for
> conversation's sake...
> My other thought is that these doctors just aren't seeing the success
> of barefoot running because most of us, at some point, gave up going
> to their offices :)
> On Dec 7, 6:46 pm, runs_with_kona <shin.n....@gmail.com> wrote:
I too had PF in my left foot. i had it before I started running in
VFFs and now in huaraches. My PF is completely gone. But I did get
achilles tendonitis during my first few weeks of VFF running due to
improper from. That is gone as well. The only issue I have right now
is minor pain in the right knee. I believe this due to improper form
as well. Working on it. Believe it is because I am reaching forward
with my legs instead of keeping my feet right under me. I also tend
to lean forward. I am working on straightening my posture.
Domingo
On Dec 8, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Mitchell Kras wrote:
> The advice to not run BF or minimalist is true. BUT only if you if
> you do it too much too soon. I know from experience. I had plantar
> fascitus before and got it running in VFFs. But I took off a few
> weeks, then took it easy for a few weeks. I stretched my achillies and
> plantar fascia. And now about 2 months later, I only have a hint of
> PF. So this advice does not account for the gradual positive changes
> that can occur as you run minimalist.
> On Dec 7, 11:34 am, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This bit borders on malpractice, IMHO:
>> "Dr. Richie says he would definitely caution against using the
>> minimalist shoes for any patient with a previous history of plantar
>> fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles tendinopathy or calf muscle
>> injury."
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
>>> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
>>> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
>>> one of annoyance.
>>> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
>>> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
>>> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear
>>> design,
>>> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
>>> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at
>>> the
>>> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
>>> University...."
>>> Here, here to that observation.
>>> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running
>>> shoes
>>> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
>>> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
>>> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the
>>> battle
>>> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
>>> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are
>>> clearly
>>> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
>>> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
>>> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
>>> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
>>> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a
>>> Nobel
>>> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
>>> often has its head in the sand.
>>> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
>>> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic
>>> ulcer
>>> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori
>>> causes
>>> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers.
>>> The
>>> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
>>> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of
>>> human
>>> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological
>>> studies."
>>> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
>>> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
>>> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>> Tucker
>> --
>> _________________________________
>> Tucker- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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I had serious posterior tibialis pain before I started barefoot
running. YEARS of physical therapy did nothing. But a month of
barefooting (and being in my huaraches) and it's gone.
Now, granted, it took me 2 months to learn to NOT overdo it, and
during that time, I'd get sore calves or the occasional blister.
And the better my posture gets (especially as I keep my core
tightened), the better my legs and feet feel when I run.
I've found that most of the people who argue against barefooting have
never tried it, or they tried it once and overdid it, or had bad
form... and then drew conclusions from a lack of experience or
evidence.
I think one thing we have to remember here is that there are a couple
of factors:
1. Harry's reading has indicated that *anyone* who starts running
during adulthood could get some injuries during the first 2-3 years.
This seems to be a function of running, and is not altered by running
in shoes or barefoot-style. Unless you're a dope and keep running
when you're in agony, most of these seem to be transient as the body
adapts.
2. Then the other factor is the shoe factor. After doing a ton of
reading I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that unless you've got
perfect biomechanics, running in sneakers sets you up for a bunch of
sneaker-related injuries. These have become widespread since the
sneaker became popular (which, just to confuse things, was at the same
time that recreational running took off). These injuries are subtle,
because they don't necessarily appear immediately after you start
wearing sneakers, but can turn up years later, so that they're not
obviously the result of sneakers. They get blamed on other
activities, like running, but have become common in all sports.
Unlike the transient running-related injuries, these can be life
altering, and I would include things like knees (tears of the tendons
and the meniscus), hips failing, bad backs, plantar fascitis, etc.
I've spoken first hand to a number of people, and read online about
loads of people who've had knees fail to the point of requiring
surgery. If they adopt barefoot-style shoes, their pains go away, and
they're able to do the very activities pain-free which supposedly
caused their knees to fail in the first place. Which raises the
obvious question, if these people had never been wearing sneakers at
all, would they have gotten these injuries in the first place?
I'm a big student of history. Nowadays, knee failure is a regular
occurence, and is treatable. Back in the good old days, it wasn't
treatable, but it was also not common. If knee failure occured in the
1800s at the same rate that it occurs now, a big percentage of the
adult population would have been unable to walk. That just wasn't the
case. The ACL tear wasn't even recognized as a medical condition
until 1974! You just don't read about large numbers of people having
these sorts of problems, and the big study that was done prior to the
invention of the sneaker just doesn't even mention them. They do
however mention a different bunch of shoe-related injuries, caused by
a different style of shoe. But the sneaker-related stuff is all new.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:21 AM, invisibleshoe <stevensas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had serious posterior tibialis pain before I started barefoot
> running. YEARS of physical therapy did nothing. But a month of
> barefooting (and being in my huaraches) and it's gone.
> Now, granted, it took me 2 months to learn to NOT overdo it, and
> during that time, I'd get sore calves or the occasional blister.
> And the better my posture gets (especially as I keep my core
> tightened), the better my legs and feet feel when I run.
> I've found that most of the people who argue against barefooting have
> never tried it, or they tried it once and overdid it, or had bad
> form... and then drew conclusions from a lack of experience or
> evidence.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Huaraches, FiveFingers..." group hosted by Barefoot Ted http://barefootted.com > To post to this group, send email to huaraches@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to huaraches+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches?hl=en
the realist knows that feet doctors benefit financially from mashed up
feet.
the cynic thinks that they know all about the benefits of barefooting
(and have since Running-Shoes came out in the 70s) but, as a rule,
prophesize about "support" due to self-preservation instinct.
the doctor's conundrum: if you could cure all your patients, you'd
have no job.
the optomist comedian thinks that the looming health care bill will
contain the following passage: "Whereas...etc...footwear whose soles
are thicker than a bee penis shall be unlawful with adornment of such
footwear punishable through successful completion a road marathon in
duck boots."
Obviously, the government would have to have a stockpile of duck
boots.
On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
> "Dr. Richie says he would definitely caution against using the
> minimalist shoes for any patient with a previous history of plantar
> fasciitis, stress fracture, Achilles tendinopathy or calf muscle
> injury."
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> > Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> > There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> > one of annoyance.
> > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > University...."
> > Here, here to that observation.
> > "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> > prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> > “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> > "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> > of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> > Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> > shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> > This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> > medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> > school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> > medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> > Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> > often has its head in the sand.
> > "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> > stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> > disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> > more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> > link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> > and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> > volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> > Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> > one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> > barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Tucker
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker- Hide quoted text -
Well I read the article. And even if they had all this evidence to
back it up, which they seem to be greatly lacking, I would disagree. I
have back problems, due to a helicopter crash, and was advised to
stop running all together because it was unnatural. I tried
barefooting because I had nothing to lose, and I have to pain when I
run. So as far as I'm concerned that's all the evidence I need.
On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> one of annoyance.
> "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> University...."
> Here, here to that observation.
> "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> often has its head in the sand.
> "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> --
> _________________________________
> Tucker
A fantastic point. The challenge is convincing other people who do not
have the personal experience and choose to take a cynical stance. I
believe there is much to be done in somehow quantifying "recovery"
from injuries. In a lot of your cases, there aren't many measurable
variables. For instance, Moose, what were your specific back problems?
If it was a slipped disk or something like that, the doctor could
follow your progress and level of pain as you progressed in
barefooting by measuring the position of the disk. But most injuries
are related to inflammation in connective tissue (fascia, tendons,
ligaments) and probably hard to measure. So people, doctors
especially, haven't seen the "proof." They've heard and read your
accounts of miraculous turn arounds from injury (we could probably
count hundreds of such cases here - everyone seems to have the same
story). However, until something is well documented they won't believe
or support it whole-heartedly.
I just got in touch with an orthopedic doctor at my university and
explained my plan. I think I have a unique opportunity to get
something more concrete documented about the benefits of barefoot
running (3 large bone spurs in my ankles that grew while running
shod). I sincerely believe they will disappear with barefoot running
and I'm trying to get him on board to quantify the changes in the
bones. I'd like to post X-rays and updates if people are interested.
Thoughts about this "experiment?"
On Dec 12, 2:55 pm, Moose <davidamus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I read the article. And even if they had all this evidence to
> back it up, which they seem to be greatly lacking, I would disagree. I
> have back problems, due to a helicopter crash, and was advised to
> stop running all together because it was unnatural. I tried
> barefooting because I had nothing to lose, and I have to pain when I
> run. So as far as I'm concerned that's all the evidence I need.
> On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> > Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> > There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> > one of annoyance.
> > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > University...."
> > Here, here to that observation.
> > "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> > prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> > “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> > "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> > of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> > Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> > shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> > This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> > medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> > school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> > medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> > Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> > often has its head in the sand.
> > "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> > stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> > disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> > more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> > link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> > and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> > volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> > Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> > one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> > barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Tucker
Yeah, it would have been hard to document in my case. It was defined
as a "soft tissue" injury, which I took as "we have know idea what's
causing your pain."
Best of luck with your research, I hope it can help justify
barefooting, in the medical field at least.
On Dec 12, 9:35 pm, alchemist88 <brianlcon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A fantastic point. The challenge is convincing other people who do not
> have the personal experience and choose to take a cynical stance. I
> believe there is much to be done in somehow quantifying "recovery"
> from injuries. In a lot of your cases, there aren't many measurable
> variables. For instance, Moose, what were your specific back problems?
> If it was a slipped disk or something like that, the doctor could
> follow your progress and level of pain as you progressed in
> barefooting by measuring the position of the disk. But most injuries
> are related to inflammation in connective tissue (fascia, tendons,
> ligaments) and probably hard to measure. So people, doctors
> especially, haven't seen the "proof." They've heard and read your
> accounts of miraculous turn arounds from injury (we could probably
> count hundreds of such cases here - everyone seems to have the same
> story). However, until something is well documented they won't believe
> or support it whole-heartedly.
> I just got in touch with an orthopedic doctor at my university and
> explained my plan. I think I have a unique opportunity to get
> something more concrete documented about the benefits of barefoot
> running (3 large bone spurs in my ankles that grew while running
> shod). I sincerely believe they will disappear with barefoot running
> and I'm trying to get him on board to quantify the changes in the
> bones. I'd like to post X-rays and updates if people are interested.
> Thoughts about this "experiment?"
> On Dec 12, 2:55 pm, Moose <davidamus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well I read the article. And even if they had all this evidence to
> > back it up, which they seem to be greatly lacking, I would disagree. I
> > have back problems, due to a helicopter crash, and was advised to
> > stop running all together because it was unnatural. I tried
> > barefooting because I had nothing to lose, and I have to pain when I
> > run. So as far as I'm concerned that's all the evidence I need.
> > On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, Tuck <tuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Pretty amusing. Clearly the natives are getting restless in
> > > Podiatry-land, and the Podiatrists don't know what to do about it.
> > > There are a few good points in this article, but the overall tone is
> > > one of annoyance.
> > > "...Dr. Richie adds that the lack of heel elevation in these shoes
> > > will cause eccentric loading of the Achilles tendon and calf
> > > musculature. “In runners who have not adapted to this footwear design,
> > > the risk of Achilles tendon injuries could be expected to increase,”
> > > notes Dr. Richie, an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Biomechanics at the
> > > California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt
> > > University...."
> > > Here, here to that observation.
> > > "...However, the few patients she has that use barefoot running shoes
> > > prefer the Vibram Five Fingers shoes as they believe these shoes
> > > “simulate the true feel and biomechanics of barefoot running shoes”
> > > "“Nike Free and Newton Running seem to be losing ground in the battle
> > > of barefoot running shoes,” notes Dr. Sanders...."
> > > Which is a shame, of course, because Nike Free and Newton are clearly
> > > shoes, and Vibrams are clearly not. ;)
> > > This reminds me of nothing more than the change that overcame the
> > > medical industry in regards to ulcers. They'd all been taught in
> > > school what caused ulcers, and then one rebel doctor challenged the
> > > medical orthodoxy. It took him 20+ years, and he finally got a Nobel
> > > Prize as a result, but it demonstrated that the medical community
> > > often has its head in the sand.
> > > "In 1982, when this bacterium was discovered by Marshall and Warren,
> > > stress and lifestyle were considered the major causes of peptic ulcer
> > > disease. It is now firmly established that Helicobacter pylori causes
> > > more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and up to 80% of gastric ulcers. The
> > > link between Helicobacter pylori infection and subsequent gastritis
> > > and peptic ulcer disease has been established through studies of human
> > > volunteers, antibiotic treatment studies and epidemiological studies."
> > > Guys like Marshall and Warren are real heros, in my view. Hopefully
> > > one day we'll see similar recognition of folks who push the
> > > barefoot-style revolution, like Munson, Wikler, and Lieberman.
> > > --
> > > _________________________________
> > > Tucker- Hide quoted text -
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:35 PM, alchemist88 <brianlcon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A fantastic point. The challenge is convincing other people who do not
> have the personal experience and choose to take a cynical stance. I
> believe there is much to be done in somehow quantifying "recovery"
> from injuries. In a lot of your cases, there aren't many measurable
> variables. For instance, Moose, what were your specific back problems?
> If it was a slipped disk or something like that, the doctor could
> follow your progress and level of pain as you progressed in
> barefooting by measuring the position of the disk. But most injuries
> are related to inflammation in connective tissue (fascia, tendons,
> ligaments) and probably hard to measure. So people, doctors
> especially, haven't seen the "proof." They've heard and read your
> accounts of miraculous turn arounds from injury (we could probably
> count hundreds of such cases here - everyone seems to have the same
> story). However, until something is well documented they won't believe
> or support it whole-heartedly.
> I just got in touch with an orthopedic doctor at my university and
> explained my plan. I think I have a unique opportunity to get
> something more concrete documented about the benefits of barefoot
> running (3 large bone spurs in my ankles that grew while running
> shod). I sincerely believe they will disappear with barefoot running
> and I'm trying to get him on board to quantify the changes in the
> bones. I'd like to post X-rays and updates if people are interested.
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