Prosperity Gospel
Bob Wilson
http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm
Apparently salvation has it's perks:
". . .
In keeping with the erroneous idea of using some positive thinking to
get what you want in life, Osteen preaches the Kenneth Hagin/Charles
Capps idea that we can get what we want from God by our faith-filled
words. This entire sermon was on how as a child of God we should be
receiving "preferential treatment" by everyone. He testified about how
he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the
officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the
same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have
God's favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to
get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat
on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at
restaurants.
. . ."
Bob Wilson
Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen
say on Thu 20 Apr 2006 08:13:58a:
> By
> following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best
> parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a
> crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at
> restaurants.
It's Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion: if the elect are
predestined to be saved in the life to come, then why would God want
to torment them on earth? If they're in God's favor, wouldn't God
make them prosperous?
And it's a bedrock principle of conservatism: the rich deserve to be
rich and the poor deserve to be poor. Osteen merely takes this thing
that every single conservative believes, but doesn't think about too
much, and amplifies it until the wicked pridefulness of it becomes
evident even to other conservatives.
That's going too far, they say. But there's still a good reason why
LaKendra is waiting on my table and Manuel is working in my garden.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the corporate society I've
worked so hard to maintain for... uhhh, somebody. Better not think
about that either. Nope, not my fault. Not me.
So a prosperity gospel taketh away the sins of the comfortable. Or
at any rate, taketh away the *consciousness* of the sins. What would
Jesus say about the prosperity gospel? No need to speculate. He
already said it.
So tell me, all you believers in the prosperity gospel, you're going
to go to heaven by believing and practicing something you *know*
Jesus himself has said was wrong? Just how are you going to manage
that?
I hope some entrepreneur figures out how to sell tickets to those
appearances before the judgment seat. I'd pay good money to see
that.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/
I refuse to have a culture war with an unarmed opponent. - uu_mom
Bo
"Bob Wilson" <bwils...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1he32qp.plhc51pdqji8N%bwils...@hotmail.com...
James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and
continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work,
this man shall be blessed in his deed."
Rev 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this
prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is
at hand."
Ro 4:7 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose
sins are covered."
Ps 119:2 "Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with
the whole heart."
Job 1:10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he
has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his
possessions have increased in the land."
It is plain to me from the above, among others, that God does bless
believers--and make many promises of blessings to them--not just in the
hereafter. Whether or not Mr. Osteen's blessings are of, and from, God
remains to be seen. If so, more power to Mr. Osteen---if not, then it will
come out in the end, sooner or later.... I hope it is of God because
further repute to the body of Christ (as was seen in the late 80s) is never
a good thing.
I don't subscribe to the notion that a believer *has* to be poor or
ignorant---nor do I subscribe to the notion that rich persons cannot be
believers either. Clearly, Solomon's wealth DWARFED Mr. Osteen's. Don't cha'
think?
I am certainly not Mr. Osteen's judge as tempting as it could be...
Bo
Bob Wilson
I just remember something about a camel, needle and salvation. Then
there was the lesson that the last shall be first and the first shall be
last. Then there was someone being naked, hungry and in need of comfort.
Also, a young follower who could not give up his position and wealth to
follow the rabbi.
These are lessons for life that seem at odds with Prosperity Gospel . .
. but then I always thought it was the application of these teachings
that brought salvation.
Bob Wilson
Bob Wilson
> So a prosperity gospel taketh away the sins of the comfortable. Or
> at any rate, taketh away the *consciousness* of the sins. What would
> Jesus say about the prosperity gospel? No need to speculate. He
> already said it.
>
> So tell me, all you believers in the prosperity gospel, you're going
> to go to heaven by believing and practicing something you *know*
> Jesus himself has said was wrong? Just how are you going to manage
> that?
The examples are way to easy to find. Pat Robertson comes to mind.
Bob Wilson
One Usenet Poster
> I just remember something about a camel, needle and salvation.
Some claim that this is a mistranslation of the ancient Greek text. The
original Greek word is "kamilos" which means "rope", as opposed to
"kamelos" which means "camel". This makes more sense to me, although
the basic intent is the same either way.
OUP
Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen
2006 01:17:27p:
> James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and
> continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of
> the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
That's one. Alas, it's taken out of context. Here's the whole
passage:
1:22 But be sure you live out the message and do not merely
listen to it and so deceive yourselves. 1:23 For if someone
merely listens to the message and does not live it out, he is
like someone who gazes at his own face in a mirror. 1:24 For he
gazes at himself and then goes out and immediately forgets what
sort of person he was. 1:25 But the one who peers into the
perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does
not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out – he
will be blessed in what he does. 1:26 If someone thinks he is
religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his
heart, his religion is futile. 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion
before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in
their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Let's read that last verse again, shall we?
1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this:
to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep
oneself unstained by the world.
Oops. Rather the opposite of the prosperity gospel there, isn't it?
Widows and orphans are victims of "misfortune", not some sin, and
it's every Christian's responsibility to care for them.
Well, perhaps that's a one-off and James is really saying something
else. No such luck. Earlier in the same chapter we read:
1:9 Now the believer of humble means should take pride in his
high position. 1:10 But the rich person’s pride should be in
his humiliation, because he will pass away like a wildflower in
the meadow. 1:11 For the sun rises with its heat and dries up
the meadow; the petal of the flower falls off and its beauty is
lost forever. So also the rich person in the midst of his
pursuits will wither away.
Finding that kind of thing in the Bible shouldn't surprise anybody.
This is *Christianity* we're talking about, not some sham religion
concocted by Ralph Reed and James Dobson and the rest of the
apologists for greed.
> Rev 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words
> of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
> for the time is at hand."
No prosperity gospel there.
> Ro 4:7 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
> and whose sins are covered."
Or there.
> Ps 119:2 "Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that
> seek him with the whole heart."
Or there either.
> Job 1:10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and
> all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his
> hands, and his possessions have increased in the land."
Now wait. I know this is Bo, whose ignorance of the things biblical
passeth all understanding, but seriously! Let's read the *whole*
passage, shall we?
1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Is it for nothing that Job
fears God? 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him and his
household and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the
work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.
1:11 But extend your hand and strike everything he has, and he
will no doubt curse you to your face!"
The best authority for the prosperity gospel you can come up with is
SATAN?????
Bob Wilson
Rope does make more sense but then we also have "when pigs fly." Just
curious but I wonder if other contemparary works use the same aphorism
or does it show up only in the Gospels?
Bob Wilson
Bo
>
> I just remember something about a camel, needle and salvation. Then
Indeed. If you study this again you'll find Jesus concludes that it is not
impossible for a rich person to enter heaven.
Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you,
That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye
of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who
then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible;
but with God all things are possible.
An interesting question, is why the disciples--who were certainly not rich,
asked the question "Who then can be saved?". Seems like they took what Jesus
said as 'how can anyone be saved?" In short, I think this passage is not so
much about wealth, as it is about salvation---and that no man can do it on
his own terms and no one can buy it---
Why do you think they asked 'who then can be saved?'
> there was the lesson that the last shall be first and the first shall be
> last. Then there was someone being naked, hungry and in need of comfort.
> Also, a young follower who could not give up his position and wealth to
> follow the rabbi.
>
> These are lessons for life that seem at odds with Prosperity Gospel . .
Again, I don't disagree---but am reluctant to be Mr Osteen's judge Matt 7:2
"For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever
measure you measure, it will be measured to you"
> . but then I always thought it was the application of these teachings
> that brought salvation.
Not sure what you mean 'application of these teachings'--- suffice it to say
that I don't believe there is any *work* anyone can do to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 *Not* of works, lest any man should
boast.
>
> Bob Wilson
Bob Wilson
> "Bob Wilson" <bwils...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1he3y66.1dcka60prfutwN%bwils...@hotmail.com...
>
> >
> > I just remember something about a camel, needle and salvation. Then
>
> Indeed. If you study this again you'll find Jesus concludes that it is not
> impossible for a rich person to enter heaven.
>
> Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you,
> That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
> 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye
> of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
> 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who
> then can be saved?
> 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible;
> but with God all things are possible.
>
> An interesting question, is why the disciples--who were certainly not rich,
> asked the question "Who then can be saved?". Seems like they took what Jesus
> said as 'how can anyone be saved?" In short, I think this passage is not so
> much about wealth, as it is about salvation---and that no man can do it on
> his own terms and no one can buy it---
The simpler reading is a rich man won't make it.
> Why do you think they asked 'who then can be saved?'
I think they were asking about the kingdom of God on earth . . .
salvation in this life.
>
> > there was the lesson that the last shall be first and the first shall be
> > last. Then there was someone being naked, hungry and in need of comfort.
> > Also, a young follower who could not give up his position and wealth to
> > follow the rabbi.
> >
> > These are lessons for life that seem at odds with Prosperity Gospel . .
>
> Again, I don't disagree---but am reluctant to be Mr Osteen's judge Matt 7:2
>
> "For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever
> measure you measure, it will be measured to you"
The correllary is anyone who is wealthy has been blessed by God. This
becomes a salvation measured by accountants.
> > . but then I always thought it was the application of these teachings
> > that brought salvation.
>
> Not sure what you mean 'application of these teachings'---
It means we are known by our works.
> . . . suffice it to say
> that I don't believe there is any *work* anyone can do to be saved.
> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of
> yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 *Not* of works, lest any man should
> boast.
Then we have a curious license for all sorts of behavior that is
allowed. Just believe the magic thoughts prior to death and salvation is
yours . . . even if you fly a plane into a World Trade Center.
Bob Wilson
Bo
>
>> > I just remember something about a camel, needle and salvation. Then
>>
>> Indeed. If you study this again you'll find Jesus concludes that it is
>> not
>> impossible for a rich person to enter heaven.
>>
>> Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you,
>> That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
>> 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the
>> eye
>> of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
>> 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who
>> then can be saved?
>> 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
>> impossible;
>> but with God all things are possible.
>>
>> An interesting question, is why the disciples--who were certainly not
>> rich,
>> asked the question "Who then can be saved?". Seems like they took what
>> Jesus
>> said as 'how can anyone be saved?" In short, I think this passage is not
>> so
>> much about wealth, as it is about salvation---and that no man can do it
>> on
>> his own terms and no one can buy it---
>
> The simpler reading is a rich man won't make it.
Only if you throw away verse 26 :)
>
>> Why do you think they asked 'who then can be saved?'
>
> I think they were asking about the kingdom of God on earth . . .
> salvation in this life.
>
>>
>> > there was the lesson that the last shall be first and the first shall
>> > be
>> > last. Then there was someone being naked, hungry and in need of
>> > comfort.
>> > Also, a young follower who could not give up his position and wealth to
>> > follow the rabbi.
>> >
>> > These are lessons for life that seem at odds with Prosperity Gospel . .
>>
>> Again, I don't disagree---but am reluctant to be Mr Osteen's judge Matt
>> 7:2
>>
>> "For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with
>> whatever
>> measure you measure, it will be measured to you"
>
> The correllary is anyone who is wealthy has been blessed by God. This
> becomes a salvation measured by accountants.
One can certainly make that argument. Certainly Solomon and Job were blessed
by God--and were wealthy. I think the fundamental point is that one cannot
*buy* their salvation. Agreed? Nor can one love their money/wealth more than
God. Agreed? This was why the man who couldn't give his money up, couldn't
be a believer. I don't think Job loved his blessing more than his Blesser.
>> Not sure what you mean 'application of these teachings'---
>
> It means we are known by our works.
>
>> . . . suffice it to say
>> that I don't believe there is any *work* anyone can do to be saved.
>> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of
>> yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 *Not* of works, lest any man should
>> boast.
>
> Then we have a curious license for all sorts of behavior that is
> allowed. Just believe the magic thoughts prior to death and salvation is
> yours . . .
This theory is not borne out by the Bible. Perhaps the Quran, but not the
Bible--IMHO.
Ro 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
abound? God Forbid!"
Bo