Maps of houston
Jim Riley
Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
building?
When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
By the time that the Medical Center was build, had they forgotten the
bayou?
<http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_Tx_1920.jpg>
Shows a circular street around the original capitol. When were they
removed?
<http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@filreq(@field(STATE+texas)+@field(COLLID+pmmap))>
Map number 13.
What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
--
Jim Riley
Not Me
wrote:
><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>
>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
Greenbriar
>
>Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
>Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
>was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
>building?
>
>When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
I don't recall seeing it on a map from the 40's at the Clayton
Library.
>
>By the time that the Medical Center was build, had they forgotten the
>bayou?
Which bayou? The one that runs across Rice U? That is now a drainage
ditch of sorts that disappears at Main Street.
>
><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_Tx_1920.jpg>
>
>Shows a circular street around the original capitol. When were they
>removed?
>
><http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@filreq(@field(STATE+texas)+@field(COLLID+pmmap))>
>
>Map number 13.
>
>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
now a park.
Cool stuff. For more of the same vieit the Julia Ideson building at
the Houston Public Library downtown, or the Clayton Library on San
Jacinto.
Al and Sharon Amabile
interesting post. You have picqued my curiosity. Although I cannot answer
all of your questions, I can point you to a book which might answer them. I
think the book is
Marguerite Johnston, "Houston: The Unknown City, 1836-1946." (College
Station: Texas A&M University Press, 1991).
Ms Johnston writes an interesting history of the city and environs. Also
try reading a little book by Garvin Berry and Betty Chapman on 2-Minute
histories of Houston.
I can tell you when the old capital was removed--that was when Jesse Holcomb
Jones decided to build a hotel in which to live. He built either the
current Rice or the Lamar (I am leaning towards the Lamar) on the site of
the old capitol building.
I am thinking the building you are talking about here is the old Harris
County Courthouse which was rebuilt in the teens.
> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
> & Travis.
I think this one is the old Houston City Hall which was replaced in the
1930s under the direction of Jesse Jones with an Albert C. Finn design--the
current City Hall. Finn also designed Jeff Davis Hospital and the San
Jacinto Monument.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>
>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
Not in my lifetime, just a mildly dangerous turn in road and bridge
across the bayou.
>Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
>Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
>was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
>building?
Buffalo and Kirby were both `far out' at the time you note. There was
a Sears warehouse over that way that was the temporary home of Baylor
Med. when it first moved to Houston from Dallas.
Only one Lamar. Can't imagine what you are seeing, maybe the big (one
story) Weingarten grocery store that used to be in that general area?
Lamar High has been in its present location since it opened in the
'30's.
>When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
>
Wow. What rail line? What institute junction? Was an old trolly line
that ran from downtown out Caroline to Southside High (San Jacinto,
Junior college).
>By the time that the Medical Center was build, had they forgotten the
>bayou?
Brays? Nope, it was just distant from the Medical Center, initially.
Medical Center clustered around the area of the original Hermann
Hospital at Fannin and Hermann Drive.
><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_Tx_1920.jpg>
>
>Shows a circular street around the original capitol. When were they
>removed?
Apparently without a trace.
><http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@filreq(@field(STATE+texas)+@field(COLLID+pmmap))>
>
>Map number 13.
>
>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
Sounds like the old Texas Bus Lines station that was the main
induction center all during WW2 and a few years after. Well known to 2
generations of draftees and recruits. Union Station was many blocks
away on the other side of Main near present ball park. A few blocks to
the west on Buffalo Bayou was the original farmer's market. A few
blocks northwest across Franklin/Washington was the SP train station
(actually, a little more impressive than Union Station, and a short
walk nw of that was the antique original Jeff Davis Charity Hospital,
which moved over on Allen Pkwy and became the new JD Hosp., which
moved to the Med. Center just east of Hermann property on Hermann
Drive and became the newer Ben Taub City-County Hosp., named for a
generous donor to various Med Center Projects, notably Baylor Univ.
Med School along with H.R. Cullen, W. Clayton, Jesse Jones, M.D.
Anderson.
Professor Vonroach
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>>
>>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
Er..., you are talking about South Shepherd below, this runs into
Shepherd and then into North Shepherd which begins to cross highways,
many railroad tracks, and the Bayou and goes on out north a long way.
It crosses Buffalo Bayou near St. Thomas High. Just after Allen Pkwy
crosses Shepherd and becomes Kirby through River Oaks and beyond.
>That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
>ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
>Greenbriar
>>
>>Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
>>Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
>>was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
>>building?
>>
>>When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
>
>I don't recall seeing it on a map from the 40's at the Clayton
>Library.
>>
>>By the time that the Medical Center was build, had they forgotten the
>>bayou?
>
>Which bayou? The one that runs across Rice U? That is now a drainage
>ditch of sorts that disappears at Main Street.
Into Brays Bayou, which receives a number of drainage ditches.
>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_Tx_1920.jpg>
>>
>>Shows a circular street around the original capitol. When were they
>>removed?
>>
>><http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@filreq(@field(STATE+texas)+@field(COLLID+pmmap))>
>>
>>Map number 13.
>>
>>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
>
>That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
>now a park.
I still vote for the old Texas Bus Lines terminal, unless the old city
hall abutted the bus terminal (not to be confused with the Greyhound
terminal on the other side of main near Union station, before it moved
to present location)
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>>
>>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
>
>Not in my lifetime, just a mildly dangerous turn in road and bridge
>across the bayou.
>
>>Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
>>Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
>>was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
>>building?
>Buffalo and Kirby were both `far out' at the time you note. There was
>a Sears warehouse over that way that was the temporary home of Baylor
>Med. when it first moved to Houston from Dallas.
>Only one Lamar. Can't imagine what you are seeing, maybe the big (one
>story) Weingarten grocery store that used to be in that general area?
>Lamar High has been in its present location since it opened in the
>'30's.
This is a topo sheet from 1921. The north edge of the map is just
north of San Felipe Road. Was this at one time the road to San Felipe
de Austin? The sheet for northwest houston does show a couple of
right angle turns in Sheppard before crossing the bayou. There is a
north-south street grid to about 4 blocks west of Montrose, the
NNW-ESE grid that is west of Waugh, and a bit more of North-South gird
to the west of that, not quite getting to "Sheppard Dam Road"
What is now about Kirby is labelled "Reynolds Road" and goes from San
Felipe Rd to Bellaire Rd. Westheimer and Alabama go through the area,
though are not labelled. Richmond Road takes a sharp turn south just
west of Sheppard, crosses the railroad tracks and then heads west
again (maybe along Bissonnet). Where Bissonnet angles southwest is
the Poor Farm.
The road that follows the RR tracks (Westpark) is labelled Aransas
Pass Road.
On Westheimer just east of what is now Kirby is "John Smith School",
and to the west is a small street grid (maybe 8x3 blocks). The large
building is to the west of this. Its long axis is north-south. It's
about 3 blocks north-east of Buffalo Speedway (the racetrack).
>>When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
>>
>Wow. What rail line? What institute junction? Was an old trolly line
>that ran from downtown out Caroline to Southside High (San Jacinto,
>Junior college).
The branch line branches off the Westpark rail line at about
Greenbriar and goes south. That junction is labelled "Institute".
The branch line goes due south and then hooks back more or less about
Rice Blvd.
There is another branch line from roughly Westpark/SWFreeway and Main
which goes SSE to Almeda and then out Almeda.
There is a track parallel to Main (about where Fannin is now) that
turns and goes west on Bellaire.
San Jacinto high is barely on the edge of the map.
I found a state map from 1895, showing a railroad that was between the
railroads along Westpark and Katy, except it swings north of Katy
somewhere around Barker. It shows two stops, "Westheimer" may be in
the area we are talking about; and "Beeler" probably around Westbelt.
>>By the time that the Medical Center was build, had they forgotten the
>>bayou?
>
>Brays? Nope, it was just distant from the Medical Center, initially.
>Medical Center clustered around the area of the original Hermann
>Hospital at Fannin and Hermann Drive.
I was mislead a bit by the contours. They are one foot contours, that
give Brays Bayou the appearance of being the Grand Canyon. The area
I was looking at was south of Herman Park is a actually a swale that
is about 6 feet deep and and several blocks across.
>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_Tx_1920.jpg>
>>
>>Shows a circular street around the original capitol. When were they
>>removed?
>
>Apparently without a trace.
>
>><http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@filreq(@field(STATE+texas)+@field(COLLID+pmmap))>
>>
>>Map number 13.
>>
>>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
>
>Sounds like the old Texas Bus Lines station that was the main
>induction center all during WW2 and a few years after.
This a panoramic view of Houston in 1912, from San Jacinto and Rusk
looking northward. It is just behind and to the right of the Rice
Hotel. Was there ever a market building on Market Square?
>Well known to 2
>generations of draftees and recruits. Union Station was many blocks
>away on the other side of Main near present ball park. A few blocks to
>the west on Buffalo Bayou was the original farmer's market. A few
>blocks northwest across Franklin/Washington was the SP train station
>(actually, a little more impressive than Union Station, and a short
>walk nw of that was the antique original Jeff Davis Charity Hospital,
>which moved over on Allen Pkwy and became the new JD Hosp., which
>moved to the Med. Center just east of Hermann property on Hermann
>Drive and became the newer Ben Taub City-County Hosp., named for a
>generous donor to various Med Center Projects, notably Baylor Univ.
>Med School along with H.R. Cullen, W. Clayton, Jesse Jones, M.D.
>Anderson.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
Possibly. Did it have a shed area on the Milam Street side for
busses? The Travis street side is set back from the street forming a
small plaza.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>>
>>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
>
>That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
>ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
>Greenbriar
I think Greenbriar is where "Richmond Road" takes a right angle turn
south (this has now been rounded off in front of Phil's (59) Diner).
>Which bayou? The one that runs across Rice U? That is now a drainage
>ditch of sorts that disappears at Main Street.
The 1 foot contours makes it look deeper.
>>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
>
>That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
>now a park.
Was there a market in the back (along Milam?)
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
<ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>I can tell you when the old capital was removed--that was when Jesse Holcomb
>Jones decided to build a hotel in which to live. He built either the
>current Rice or the Lamar (I am leaning towards the Lamar) on the site of
>the old capitol building.
>I am thinking the building you are talking about here is the old Harris
>County Courthouse which was rebuilt in the teens.
No, that is shown in one of the insets. The building that I am
talking about is behind the then-new Rice Hotel (looking northward
from about San Jacinto and Rusk).
>> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>> & Travis.
>
>I think this one is the old Houston City Hall which was replaced in the
>1930s under the direction of Jesse Jones with an Albert C. Finn design--the
>current City Hall. Finn also designed Jeff Davis Hospital and the San
>Jacinto Monument.
--
Jim Riley
Lou Minatti™
>
> <http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
This is amazing. I wish my relatives had lived in Houston at the time
and bought a bunch of acreage. I like "Electric Boulevard."
--
Mostly useless.
http://www.watchingyou.com
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:20:17 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
>(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:13:02 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
>>>now a park.
>>
>>I still vote for the old Texas Bus Lines terminal, unless the old city
>>hall abutted the bus terminal (not to be confused with the Greyhound
>>terminal on the other side of main near Union station, before it moved
>>to present location)
>
>Possibly. Did it have a shed area on the Milam Street side for
>busses? The Travis street side is set back from the street forming a
>small plaza.
"Shed" - not sure what you mean by that. A covered area where buses
arrived and departed adjacent to building.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:42:17 -0500, "Al and Sharon Amabile"
><ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>I can tell you when the old capital was removed--that was when Jesse Holcomb
>>Jones decided to build a hotel in which to live. He built either the
>>current Rice or the Lamar (I am leaning towards the Lamar) on the site of
>>the old capitol building.
Jesse Jones built both. Rice Hotel at Texas Ave and Main St. site of
reputed old capitol of Texas. The Houston Chronicle was located across
Travis from Rice (`behind rice Hotel') also owned by Jesse J. His next
hotel was the Lamar - a more modern hotel located amid the first run
movie palaces on Main. Just across the street from the still standing
Foley's on Main. Jesse and his wife occupied a penthouse on the roof
of the Lamar. He also built the Gulf Building among a few others. The
Lamar was imploded in a spectacular demolition a few years ago - not
even a scratch on adjacent high rises.
>>I am thinking the building you are talking about here is the old Harris
>>County Courthouse which was rebuilt in the teens.
There is an old courthouse and a new one next door. Old one is older
than you appear to suggest and new one younger. It is the distance to
this square to which highway signs commenting on distance to Houston
are referenced - obviously miles from the city limits in all
directions.
>No, that is shown in one of the insets. The building that I am
>talking about is behind the then-new Rice Hotel (looking northward
>from about San Jacinto and Rusk).
Wow - several intervening tall buildings. Probably Houston Chronicle,
or some building in next block north on Main (?).
There was another hotel across the street from Rice on south side.
Milam Hotel to the best of my recollection. Hofheintz got his start in
broadcasting with studio at that hotel especially with some breaks on
usual Texas delegation squabble - Taft versus Eisenhower.
>>> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>> & Travis.
Ye Gods, must be an old map. There was a large European Import store
on street level in that area and again a large Weingartens a little
further west. Building across Main to east from Rice Hotel was old
downtown Foley's and a block south (across the street) was J.C.
Pennys. You know memory fades a little after 60 years. There were many
well known shops, theaters, hotels along Main at that time. I could
still name perhaps 30 or 40.
Not Me
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>>>
>>>What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>>& Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
>>>Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
>>>On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
>>>It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
>>
>>That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
>>now a park.
>
>I still vote for the old Texas Bus Lines terminal, unless the old city
>hall abutted the bus terminal (not to be confused with the Greyhound
>terminal on the other side of main near Union station, before it moved
>to present location)
>.
It's the old city hall. Here's a link to a picture on the city web
site: http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/art_lib/114-877.gif The structure
behind it in the other photo was apparently the market at Market
Square.
Not Me
wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:42:17 -0500, "Al and Sharon Amabile"
><ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>I can tell you when the old capital was removed--that was when Jesse Holcomb
>>Jones decided to build a hotel in which to live. He built either the
>>current Rice or the Lamar (I am leaning towards the Lamar) on the site of
>>the old capitol building.
The Rice hotel is on the site of the original Capitol. The Lamar Hotel
was North of Foleys, where Reliant is building their new building.
>
>>I am thinking the building you are talking about here is the old Harris
>>County Courthouse which was rebuilt in the teens.
>
>No, that is shown in one of the insets. The building that I am
>talking about is behind the then-new Rice Hotel (looking northward
>from about San Jacinto and Rusk).
>
>>> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>> & Travis.
>>
>>I think this one is the old Houston City Hall which was replaced in the
>>1930s under the direction of Jesse Jones with an Albert C. Finn design--the
>>current City Hall. Finn also designed Jeff Davis Hospital and the San
>>Jacinto Monument.
Here's a link to another cool Houston site:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lcseiler/houtoc.htm
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:13:02 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>>>
>>>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>>>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
>>
>>That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
>>ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
>>Greenbriar
>
>I think Greenbriar is where "Richmond Road" takes a right angle turn
>south (this has now been rounded off in front of Phil's (59) Diner).
Close. Richmond Road (don't confuse with Richmond Ave) which once went
to Richmond, now has a pseudonym: The Southwest West Freeway or US 59
South as you prefer. It still goes to Richmond. Actually, Greenbriar
and Shepherd were both two way streets at one time, the shenanigans
were done to change them to one way between Richmond Ave. and Rice
Ave.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:55:46 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
>(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>>>
>>>Where Shepherd crosses Buffalo Bayou is titled "Sheppard Dam Road".
>>>Was there a dam there, with a road across the top?
>>
>>Not in my lifetime, just a mildly dangerous turn in road and bridge
>>across the bayou.
>>
>>>Did the area just to the east of the Buffalo Speedway around Reynolds
>>>Road (now Kirby?) and from Westheimer to Richmond have a name? What
>>>was the large building. Was there an earlier Lamar high school
>>>building?
Part of River Oaks = Shepherd to San Felipe to Weslyan(continuation)
to Buffalo Bayou. Homes all large but no `building' in area. Closest
to that would be River Oaks Country club. There is a strip center
across the street from Lamar that is two or three stories tall -
housing shops and offices. River Oaks doesn't really touch Westheimer.
There was a large Catholic Complex on corner of Westheimer/ Shepherd
that burned to the ground (some say only second to Fifth ward fire as
big fires go). A total loss, has now been rebuilt without much to
betray its fiery history.
>>Buffalo and Kirby were both `far out' at the time you note. There was
>>a Sears warehouse over that way that was the temporary home of Baylor
>>Med. when it first moved to Houston from Dallas.
>>Only one Lamar. Can't imagine what you are seeing, maybe the big (one
>>story) Weingarten grocery store that used to be in that general area?
>>Lamar High has been in its present location since it opened in the
>>'30's.
>
>This is a topo sheet from 1921. The north edge of the map is just
>north of San Felipe Road.
>Was this at one time the road to San Felipede Austin?
Yes, one of its early tourists was Presidente Santa Ana and a portion
of his army hurrying towards Harrisburg in pursuit of rebels.
> The sheet for northwest houston does show a couple of
>right angle turns in Sheppard before crossing the bayou. There is a
>north-south street grid to about 4 blocks west of Montrose, the
>NNW-ESE grid that is west of Waugh, and a bit more of North-South gird
>to the west of that, not quite getting to "Sheppard Dam Road"
>
>What is now about Kirby is labelled "Reynolds Road" and goes from San
>Felipe Rd to Bellaire Rd.
Name changed to honor the Kirby family, big in east Texas lumbar.
There was also a Kirby theater downtown. The area you mention was
boundary between Houston (the Village) and West U. towards Bellaire.
> Westheimer and Alabama go through the area,
>though are not labelled.
Both were only marginally developed until relatively recently. Only
some scattered farms out Westheimer beyond Post Oak and Alabama just
petered out in residential area.
>Richmond Road takes a sharp turn south just
>west of Sheppard,
And becomes the Southwest Freeway, currently - a fairly new road.
>crosses the railroad tracks and then heads west
>again (maybe along Bissonnet). Where Bissonnet angles southwest is
>the Poor Farm.
Nope, Bissonnet is several blocks from old Richmond Rd. which rests in
the graveyard of roads.
>The road that follows the RR tracks (Westpark) is labelled Aransas
>Pass Road.
That would work. Richmond-SW Freeway goes to Brownsville, Telephone
Rd. went to Corpus Cristi, South Main went to Laredo or San Antonio.
Don't imagine there was a lot of traffic to Aransas Pass.
>On Westheimer just east of what is now Kirby is "John Smith School",
>and to the west is a small street grid (maybe 8x3 blocks). The large
>building is to the west of this. Its long axis is north-south. It's
>about 3 blocks north-east of Buffalo Speedway (the racetrack).
Can't imagine you are talking about Kirby Lumber co.?
>>>When was the rail line from the Institute junction to Rice removed?
>>>
>>Wow. What rail line? What institute junction? Was an old trolly line
>>that ran from downtown out Caroline to Southside High (San Jacinto,
>>Junior college).
>
>The branch line branches off the Westpark rail line at about
>Greenbriar and goes south. That junction is labelled "Institute".
>The branch line goes due south and then hooks back more or less about
>Rice Blvd.
>
>There is another branch line from roughly Westpark/SWFreeway and Main
>which goes SSE to Almeda and then out Almeda.
>
>There is a track parallel to Main (about where Fannin is now) that
>turns and goes west on Bellaire.
The trolly. Bellaire was the end of Main street until the bridge over
Brays Bayou was built. Travel further south was on Fannin which
arrived on Main again about where the Loop crosses Main. There used to
be a street in the area called Old Main.
John Gonzales
> >>> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
> >>> & Travis.
>
> Ye Gods, must be an old map. There was a large European Import store
> on street level in that area and again a large Weingartens a little
> further west. Building across Main to east from Rice Hotel was old
> downtown Foley's and a block south (across the street) was J.C.
> Pennys. You know memory fades a little after 60 years. There were many
> well known shops, theaters, hotels along Main at that time. I could
> still name perhaps 30 or 40.
>
That building where old city hall once stood became the Bowen Bus Center by the
40s. The old clock that resided inside one of the towers has since been relocated
across the street, on the corner of Congress and Travis. Don't use it to set your
clock though.
If you look at the edge of some of the surface parking lots near the market square
area, you can still see the names of businesses that used to occupy the area.
Grants is one store that comes to mind.
But THE best book on Houston history has to be the WPA Guide to Houston, published
in 1942. Despite its age, it has to be the best resource on local history. It can
be found on some of the reseller merchants through Amazon or Barnes and Noble.
John
Al and Sharon Amabile
lived in the penthouse and from whom J. acquired his wealth later in life.
The courthouse for the courthouse burnt to the ground in the early days of
the 20th century. We have been rebuilt at least twice in this past century
which means there have been at least 3 Harris County Courthouses in the 20th
century.
"Professor Vonroach" <vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3ae6d77f...@NNTP.ix.netcom.com...
Al and Sharon Amabile
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:48:06 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>>>I still vote for the old Texas Bus Lines terminal, unless the old city
>>>hall abutted the bus terminal (not to be confused with the Greyhound
>>>terminal on the other side of main near Union station, before it moved
>>>to present location)
>>
>>Possibly. Did it have a shed area on the Milam Street side for
>>busses? The Travis street side is set back from the street forming a
>>small plaza.
>
>"Shed" - not sure what you mean by that. A covered area where buses
>arrived and departed adjacent to building.
===== Milam =======
| ___________ |C
P| | | |o
r| |___________| |n
e| | | |g
s| ____| |____ |r
t| | | |e
o| |___[]___[]___| |s
n| |s
===== Travis ======
The building appears to be two stories.
The [] are towers with steepled roofs
The area on the Milam is covered (like a
playground basketball court), except the
roof is peaked. The sides are open.
The roof of this area might be corrugated tin.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
>It's the old city hall. Here's a link to a picture on the city web
>site: http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/art_lib/114-877.gif The structure
>behind it in the other photo was apparently the market at Market
>Square.
That's it. Notice the depth of awnings on the front and side in the
picture. It's possible that the area in the back is the same, only
with the awnings above the second story. It almost looks like there
is a building underneath.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:44:04 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:13:02 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
>>>That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
>>>ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
>>>Greenbriar
>>
>>I think Greenbriar is where "Richmond Road" takes a right angle turn
>>south (this has now been rounded off in front of Phil's (59) Diner).
>
>Close. Richmond Road (don't confuse with Richmond Ave) which once went
>to Richmond, now has a pseudonym: The Southwest West Freeway or US 59
>South as you prefer. It still goes to Richmond. Actually, Greenbriar
>and Shepherd were both two way streets at one time, the shenanigans
>were done to change them to one way between Richmond Ave. and Rice
>Ave.
But Old Richmond Road branches off from Bissonnet just past Dairy
Ashford. The road along the RR tracks that was converted to the SW
Freeway is labelled Aransas Pass Road.
--
Jim Riley
Not Me
wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:01:18 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
There was a mentiont hat hte first floor was a market. That's probably
what you are seeing.
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:56:18 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:42:17 -0500, "Al and Sharon Amabile"
>><ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Jesse Jones built both. Rice Hotel at Texas Ave and Main St. site of
>reputed old capitol of Texas. The Houston Chronicle was located across
>Travis from Rice (`behind rice Hotel') also owned by Jesse J. His next
>hotel was the Lamar - a more modern hotel located amid the first run
>movie palaces on Main. Just across the street from the still standing
>Foley's on Main. Jesse and his wife occupied a penthouse on the roof
>of the Lamar. He also built the Gulf Building among a few others. The
>Lamar was imploded in a spectacular demolition a few years ago - not
>even a scratch on adjacent high rises.
>
>>>I am thinking the building you are talking about here is the old Harris
>>>County Courthouse which was rebuilt in the teens.
>
>There is an old courthouse and a new one next door. Old one is older
>than you appear to suggest and new one younger. It is the distance to
>this square to which highway signs commenting on distance to Houston
>are referenced - obviously miles from the city limits in all
>directions.
The courthouse was apparently fairly new in 1912, and is the one still
used for courts (it is in an inset with the price of $500,000
displayed to show that Houston is a modern city) The other insets
show a new viaduct across the bayou, and the ship channel.
>>No, that is shown in one of the insets. The building that I am
>>talking about is behind the then-new Rice Hotel (looking northward
>>from about San Jacinto and Rusk).
>
>Wow - several intervening tall buildings. Probably Houston Chronicle,
>or some building in next block north on Main (?).
The Houston Chronicle is to the left (west) of the Rice Hotel. The
Majestic Theatre is in the same block as the Chronicle, just to its
west. The Houston Post is in the block south of the Chronicle.
Other labelled buildings:
St.Jean Hotel (across Main, but facing Prairie).
Galveston Houston Interurban Station, in catty-corner block from Rice
Hotel, facing Texas.
James Bute Co. Paints, next to the Interurban Station.
The Christ Church Cathedral catty-corner from Bute.Co.
Waddell's Housefurnishing, behind the cathedral on Prairie.
On the NE corner of Texas and San Jacinto is a building with curb
cuts. A parking garage in 1912? Looking closer, it appears to
connected to a church on the corner of Caroline and Texas.
A Tennis Court on the NW corner of Rusk and San Jacinto. Possibly on
roof of building with fencing around it.
Burnett Hotel, SW corner of Fannin and Capitol.
New Beatty Building, NE corner Walker and Main.
Bender Hotel, NW corner Walker and Main.
Carter Building, SW corner Rusk and Main. This is probably the
tallest building.
Texas Co., midblock on Main between Rusk and Capitol. On its roof it
has a derrick with a cross.
There is an excavation for a new building between the Carter Building
and the Texas Co. building.
Bristol Hotel and Annex, SW corner of Travis and Capitol.
>There was another hotel across the street from Rice on south side.
>Milam Hotel to the best of my recollection. Hofheintz got his start in
>broadcasting with studio at that hotel especially with some breaks on
>usual Texas delegation squabble - Taft versus Eisenhower.
In 1912, that block had mostly 2-3 story buildings. A slightly taller
building on the SE corner of Travis and Texas.
>>>> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
>>>> & Travis.
>
>Ye Gods, must be an old map. There was a large European Import store
>on street level in that area and again a large Weingartens a little
>further west. Building across Main to east from Rice Hotel was old
>downtown Foley's and a block south (across the street) was J.C.
>Pennys. You know memory fades a little after 60 years. There were many
>well known shops, theaters, hotels along Main at that time. I could
>still name perhaps 30 or 40.
1912.
--
Jim Riley
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:11:09 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
>(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:44:04 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:13:02 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>That road is too far west to be Shepherd - the present street dead
>>>>ends in the middle of the North side of Rice U. It may be what is now
>>>>Greenbriar
>>>
>>>I think Greenbriar is where "Richmond Road" takes a right angle turn
>>>south (this has now been rounded off in front of Phil's (59) Diner).
>>
>>Close. Richmond Road (don't confuse with Richmond Ave) which once went
>>to Richmond, now has a pseudonym: The Southwest West Freeway or US 59
>>South as you prefer. It still goes to Richmond. Actually, Greenbriar
>>and Shepherd were both two way streets at one time, the shenanigans
>>were done to change them to one way between Richmond Ave. and Rice
>>Ave.
>
>But Old Richmond Road branches off from Bissonnet just past Dairy
>Ashford. The road along the RR tracks that was converted to the SW
>Freeway is labelled Aransas Pass Road.
Still, I disagree. Lived in area when Southwest Freeway built. saw
neighborhood after neighborhood bulldozed. It followed Richmond Road,
just as the west Loop is old Post Oak Rd.
_OLD_ Richmond Road probably refers to road to Richmond from Alief or
someplace like that. Maybe just an old farm road in that area. I sense
you do not understand how far remote from old Houston that farm and
rice country once was. It was miles and miles out into the boondocks.
Shepherd was far out, Kirby was very far out, Buffalo Speedway didn't
exist with that name and was remote, Post Oak was a gravel road
through rice farms beyond last suburban vestiges. I was amused the
first time I was invited to visit a friend who had just bought a house
near Chimney Rock. Used to go to a farm on Westheimer just beyond
`galleria' area to sight in rifles in fall. And the unbelievable part
is that this was just 50-60 years ago. This place has exploded almost
beyond imagination. Rice Institute and Museum District were way out
Main further than most folks ever needed to go unless going to a
suburb - Bellaire.
Professor Vonroach
<ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Jesse J. Jones was the nephew of Jesse H. Jones. H., not J. was the one who
>lived in the penthouse and from whom J. acquired his wealth later in life.
Sufficient to say `Jesse Jones' in Houston (and Washington), anybody
who doesn't understand who you mean, doesn't know Houston. Similarly,
Howard Hughes does not refer to his daddy from whom he inherited a
fortune. Hugh Roy Cullen was a farmer who made a fortune in oil and
the local Cullens with wealth got it from him. Anderson and Clayton
were cotton merchants. Operated a worldwide commodity company. William
Marsh Rice was a New York entrepreneur who was murdered. Etc... It is
not hard to guess who or what family they belong to when using names
around Houston. Like Hogg Estate at Bayou Bend. (Trivia - Memorial
Park reverts to Hogg Estate if an oil or gas well is ever drilled on
the property).
Professor Vonroach
<ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Wasn't that the original site of St. Vincent de Paul?
If on Westheimer at Shepherd, it burned to the ground in a very
spectacular fire. Has been rebuilt on the same site.
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:40:37 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:55:46 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
>>(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:17:08 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>><http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.jpg>
>Part of River Oaks = Shepherd to San Felipe to Weslyan(continuation)
>to Buffalo Bayou. Homes all large but no `building' in area. Closest
>to that would be River Oaks Country club. There is a strip center
>across the street from Lamar that is two or three stories tall -
>housing shops and offices. River Oaks doesn't really touch Westheimer.
>There was a large Catholic Complex on corner of Westheimer/ Shepherd
>that burned to the ground (some say only second to Fifth ward fire as
>big fires go). A total loss, has now been rebuilt without much to
>betray its fiery history.
Houston didn't quite go as far west as Shepherd. The area that has
blocks on it is south of Westheimer, and has ordinary sized blocks.
There are very few houses shown, maybe it is newly subdivided.
<http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/WW/fwets.html>
says that Mitchell Louis Westheimer (1831-c.a.1906) had a plantation
residence near where Lamar High School is. He donated the land for a
shortcut road to Sealy and Columbus. The building looks too big for a
house.
>>What is now about Kirby is labelled "Reynolds Road" and goes from San
>>Felipe Rd to Bellaire Rd.
>
>Name changed to honor the Kirby family, big in east Texas lumbar.
>There was also a Kirby theater downtown. The area you mention was
>boundary between Houston (the Village) and West U. towards Bellaire.
The topo sheet shows several blocks in West U off of Bellaire.
Rice is very much on the edge of town; with perhaps a few farm houses
off of Bissonett; and a block of Sunset west of Main; and some blocks
between Main and the railroad tracks over to Almeda.
>>On Westheimer just east of what is now Kirby is "John Smith School",
>>and to the west is a small street grid (maybe 8x3 blocks). The large
>>building is to the west of this. Its long axis is north-south. It's
>>about 3 blocks north-east of Buffalo Speedway (the racetrack).
>
>Can't imagine you are talking about Kirby Lumber co.?
Did he have any mills in the Houston area?
--
Jim Riley
Al and Sharon Amabile
"Jim Riley" <jim...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:9c5c25$5m1$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Not Me
Actually I think the deed says profit making commerce or something ot
that effect. There was much discussion about wherther allowing Beck's
Prime ot operate at the golf course club house would void the deed.
Professor Vonroach
And search for a profit includes drilling, which is the major lust of
those who eye the area for exploitation. They are banned even if
hidden in some type of camouflage.
Not Me
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
Lots of folks in the oil industry would love to see what's down there
under the park. There was a small oil field up near 18th and TC Jester
called the Eureka Heights field.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>Houston didn't quite go as far west as Shepherd. The area that has
>blocks on it is south of Westheimer, and has ordinary sized blocks.
>There are very few houses shown, maybe it is newly subdivided.
A puzzlement? Sam Montgomery `the Rocket Man' had an Olds dealership
near there later. Only old building that I can think of is Sidney
Lanier Junior High School were folks like Marvin Zindler pupiled.
There was an old church on the north side of lower Westheimer near
Shepherd that is now a restaurant. Large blaze was in Catholic
building on northwest corner.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
Viaduct at Main St? Jensen? 69th St? Nothing but ferries beyond. Main
is a viaduct, others just bridges. Ship Channel terminates in Turning
Basin.
>>>No, that is shown in one of the insets. The building that I am
>>>talking about is behind the then-new Rice Hotel (looking northward
>>>from about San Jacinto and Rusk).
>>
>>Wow - several intervening tall buildings. Probably Houston Chronicle,
>>or some building in next block north on Main (?).
>
>The Houston Chronicle is to the left (west) of the Rice Hotel. The
>Majestic Theatre is in the same block as the Chronicle, just to its
>west. The Houston Post is in the block south of the Chronicle.
>
>Other labelled buildings:
>
>St.Jean Hotel (across Main, but facing Prairie).
>
>Galveston Houston Interurban Station, in catty-corner block from Rice
>Hotel, facing Texas.
Must have become J C Pennys.
>James Bute Co. Paints, next to the Interurban Station.
>
>The Christ Church Cathedral catty-corner from Bute.Co.
Sure you're not talking Fannin now? The old Fannin Pharmacy was on NW
corner of Texas/Fannin, a block from Rice H. That corner was the sight
of the last old west gunfight in Houston. A man started catty-cornered
across Texas from in front of the Pharmacy while another started
toward him from in front of office building (now home to lawyers) and
when they got at close quarters, they both drew and blazed away.
Church is on the NE corner with fence and long time bus stop on Texas.
>Waddell's Housefurnishing, behind the cathedral on Prairie.
There was an Office Supply and furniture in that area. I seem to
remember it across the street but you may be right.
>On the NE corner of Texas and San Jacinto is a building with curb
>cuts. A parking garage in 1912? Looking closer, it appears to
>connected to a church on the corner of Caroline and Texas.
>
>A Tennis Court on the NW corner of Rusk and San Jacinto. Possibly on
>roof of building with fencing around it.
Can't say? There was an Elk's Lodge in that area, since moved to
Willow Drive.
>Burnett Hotel, SW corner of Fannin and Capitol.
>
>New Beatty Building, NE corner Walker and Main.
Texaco Co, headquarters occupied a block between Fannin and San
Jacinto in that area. and original Main Post Office between San
Jacinto and Caroline.
>Bender Hotel, NW corner Walker and Main.
Sounds like area of the Texas State Hotel, behind Kirby Theater on
Main. Walk-up staircase on side street to Aragon (?) ballroom where
Vic Insirello (?) trumpeter and his `big band' entertained.
>
>Carter Building, SW corner Rusk and Main. This is probably the
>tallest building.
>
>Texas Co., midblock on Main between Rusk and Capitol. On its roof it
>has a derrick with a cross.
Maybe a thousand years ago, it has been at its present location
between Fannin and San Jacinto for a very long time. SW corner of
Fannin/Capitol - the old Capitol Bar and a walk down stairwell to law
offices of Percy Foreman.
Professor Vonroach
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>Texaco Co, headquarters occupied a block between Fannin and San
>Jacinto in that area. and original Main Post Office between San
>Jacinto and Caroline.
>
Addendum: Another block further east behind Main Post Office was
Central High School (Sam Houston High) were LBJ taught school for
awhile.
John Gonzales
news:47D1A07AB03E4944.0117B5F3...@lp.airnews.net...
> Jesse J. Jones was the nephew of Jesse H. Jones. H., not J. was the one
who
> lived in the penthouse and from whom J. acquired his wealth later in life.
>
Do you mean John T. Jones? He is the nephew of J.J. Jones and founded the
Houston Endowment Fund, IIRC.
John
Al and Sharon Amabile
buildings in downtown Houston, started the Houston Endowment w/his wife Mary
Gibbs Jones, advised Wilson at the Paris Peace Talks after WWI, brought the
1928 Democratic National Convention to Houston and served in the FDR
administration.
"John Gonzales" <gonz...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:A8C816D0AFF52D51.2C7AD4B9...@lp.airnews.net...
Professor Vonroach
<ama...@airmail.net> wrote:
>THE Jesse Jones was Jesse H. Jones. He is the one who built the first big
>buildings in downtown Houston, started the Houston Endowment w/his wife Mary
>Gibbs Jones, advised Wilson at the Paris Peace Talks after WWI, brought the
>1928 Democratic National Convention to Houston and served in the FDR
>administration.
As Administrator of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. Came to
Houston without much money and immediately borrowed money. Got a job
and worked hard just to pay the interest when the money was returned.
Did that 2 or 3 times, then he got serious and asked for a loan of a
few million - had no problem with his record. If one is patient and
has a goal, much becomes possible.
Not Me
Back to the original topic, after comparing the 1921 map and a current
map, the street labelled Richmond Road is actually Richmond Avenue
today. The Southwest Freeway runs along the railroad track just to the
south until it gets to Kirby (Reynolds Road on the map), where the
tracks run alongside Westpark while the freeway veers slightly to the
North.
Professor Vonroach
You are confused. Richmond Ave. and Richmond Rd. were often confused
in the old days before the latter disappeared as US 59 south. I
watched the land acquisition and construction. I was one of the first
to try out the new freeway with a friend in a Mercedes sportscar at
120 mph. out as far as the bend.
Not Me
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
No, I'm not confused. The road labelled "Richmond Road" on the 1921
map is now Richmond Avenue. US 59 runs along the railroad right of way
until just East of Kirby where th efreeway runs in a more Westerly
direction, while the railroad tracks run along Westpark, which is the
Aransas Pass road on the old map.
The streets at the SW corner of Westheimer and Kirbay have changed.
The first street West of Kirby(Reynolds) is Lake street, which does
not run all the way to Westheimer. The next street West is Virginia,
which seems to run as it did in 1921. The large building west of
Virginia is probably an old Farm, and it sits on what is now Ferndale.
The next street West is Sackett, and the street tha runs from
Westheimer past Alabama is Bammel.
One reason that many of the streets have disappeared is that they
weren't paved, making it easy to build over them.
The rail spur that runs south to Rice U is now Greenbriar.
Professor Vonroach
Believe what you want. I will continue to hold my view based on
personal knowledge.
Bill
upper floors was the City Hall. Eventually, the City Hall took the entire
thing over. After the new city Hall was built, the building became a Bus
Station (don't recall which one) and burnt down in the early 1960's. After
it burnt down, they made a city park on the block. The Clock you are
referring to was moved to the intersection of Capital and Bagby. It sits on
an island at the juncture of Capital, Rusk, and Bagby.
Bill
"Jim Riley" <jim...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:9c1kus$l2p$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
>
<http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/Houston_SW21.j
pg>
> What is the building in the block bounded by Preston & Congress, Milam
> & Travis. There are twin clock or bell towers on the front (facing
> Travis), then a T-structure with the top of the T parallel to Travis.
> On the back (along Milam) it appears to have a 2-story high open shed.
> It could be a railroad station, except for the lack of train tracks.
>
> --
> Jim Riley
Bill
building itself.
Bill
"Jim Riley" <jim...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:9c2fcb$f3t$3...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:20:17 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
> (Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:13:02 GMT, Not Me <no...@springmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>That is, I believe, the old City Hall at Market square. That block is
> >>now a park.
> >
> >I still vote for the old Texas Bus Lines terminal, unless the old city
> >hall abutted the bus terminal (not to be confused with the Greyhound
> >terminal on the other side of main near Union station, before it moved
> >to present location)
>
> Possibly. Did it have a shed area on the Milam Street side for
> busses? The Travis street side is set back from the street forming a
> small plaza.
>
> --
> Jim Riley
Not Me
Take out your current map of Houston and compare it to the image at
the link. From Main Street to Reynolds Road, the street labelled
Richmond Road is nor Richmond Avenue, while the train tacks to the
south are now the SW Freeway until just East of Reynolds Road, where
the SW Freeway runs a little further North. The road labelled Aransas
Pass is Westpark, and the North/South street where it crosses to the
North of the tracks is Edloe.
Professor Vonroach
Sorry, I first became acquainted with `Westpark' as a narrow gravel
road beside the tracks protected from apts. etc along Bissonet by a
ditch and high weeds, used by kids with cars as a lover's lane and
other illegal things as such as drinking a beer in afternoons and
early evenings. It has only become a credible street in last few
decades. Richmond Rd. and now SW Freeway was and is on the other side
of the tracks and was also obscured by weeds. Please note: drug use
among highschool students was _non-existent_ in those days. Amorous
interludes (necking) and mild adult beverages only. Very little
smoking.
Next Street beyond Richmond Rd. was Richmond Ave, then Alabama, then
Westheimer, then San Felipe. None were impressive beyond the Shepherd
- Kirby area. South Post Oak was gravel, then blacktop end of the line
with Voss's Pool Tavern on SE corner of Westheimer.
Professor Vonroach
>That building was originally the City Market on the lower floors, and the
>upper floors was the City Hall. Eventually, the City Hall took the entire
>thing over. After the new city Hall was built, the building became a Bus
>Station (don't recall which one)
And achieved great fame as Houston's main induction center - draft and
otherwise during the war years and after.
>and burnt down in the early 1960's. After
>it burnt down, they made a city park on the block. The Clock you are
>referring to was moved to the intersection of Capital and Bagby. It sits on
>an island at the juncture of Capital, Rusk, and Bagby.
>
>Bill
A Farmer's Market was further west on Buffalo Bayou. A better known
clock hung on a Main St. corner in front of the Second National Bank,
which subsequently moved and became the Bank of the Southwest. It was
a focus for many goings on downtown for many years. I especially
recall a stand erected beneath the clock each year so that the Fat
Stock Show and Rodeo entertainers could plug the show with a short
performance at noon. Surprisingly manageable crowds passing by
considering the caliber of the entertainment.
Jim Riley
This is on the 1891 map (which is facing south).
This shows a different courthouse building, and the building at
Preston-Congress-Milam-Travis is labelled as the city hall. It
appears to have a different roof line. In 1912 it is shown with a
peak roof, in 1891 a hipped roof. The area on the west side which I
had called a shed appears to be simply a very deep awning (15-20)
feet. Was this the area used for a market.
What is now W.Dallas was San Felipe and there was a trolley loop that
ended just short of the railroad tracks east of what is now Montrose
(where the houses also ended. Houses also ended just a few block
south of Pierce. 5 Train depots (Grand Central Depot off of
Washington; Union Depot, roughly Dowling and Franklin; Gulf, Colorado,
and Santa Fe Depot, Congress and midway between Chartres and "West
Broadway" (Broadway was three blocks east of Chartres, West Broadway
and East Broadway were parallel to it); New Orleans Depot, off of
Montgomery (which appears to be about where North Main is); San
Antonio & Aransas Pass Depot, Broadway and Lamar.
A "Tabernague" on McKinnie (sic) between Travis and Main. Is this a
synagogue?
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
I suspect the viaduct is on Main Street. It has a trolley going
across the top, and shows barges along the bayou through the center
arch, and a railroad through one of the side arches. There is an
ordinary box girder bridge on Congress. The ship channel is in an
inset.
>>James Bute Co. Paints, next to the Interurban Station.
>>
>>The Christ Church Cathedral catty-corner from Bute.Co.
>
>Sure you're not talking Fannin now? The old Fannin Pharmacy was on NW
>corner of Texas/Fannin, a block from Rice H. That corner was the sight
>of the last old west gunfight in Houston. A man started catty-cornered
>across Texas from in front of the Pharmacy while another started
>toward him from in front of office building (now home to lawyers) and
>when they got at close quarters, they both drew and blazed away.
>
>Church is on the NE corner with fence and long time bus stop on Texas.
Yes. The interurban station is on the south side of Texas, midblock
between Main and Fannin. Bute Company is on the SE corner of Texas
and Fannin, the cathedral on the NE corner. No fence in this picture,
but there is the little lawn area. The building on the NW corner is 4
stories, with a store on the first level facing Texas. There is a
trolley (or perhaps the interurban train) crossing Fannin.
>>New Beatty Building, NE corner Walker and Main.
>
>Texaco Co, headquarters occupied a block between Fannin and San
>Jacinto in that area. and original Main Post Office between San
>Jacinto and Caroline.
This map could have been drawn from on top of a building at about
Walker and San Jacinto.
>>Bender Hotel, NW corner Walker and Main.
>
>Sounds like area of the Texas State Hotel, behind Kirby Theater on
>Main. Walk-up staircase on side street to Aragon (?) ballroom where
>Vic Insirello (?) trumpeter and his `big band' entertained.
It is an 11 story building in the shape of an "E" with the three
prongs facing north, the side of the E on Walker, and the base along
Main.
>>Carter Building, SW corner Rusk and Main. This is probably the
>>tallest building.
>>
>>Texas Co., midblock on Main between Rusk and Capitol. On its roof it
>>has a derrick with a cross.
>
>Maybe a thousand years ago, it has been at its present location
>between Fannin and San Jacinto for a very long time. SW corner of
>Fannin/Capitol - the old Capitol Bar and a walk down stairwell to law
>offices of Percy Foreman.
A two story building is on the SW corner, a house further south, with
a garden to its side.
Another building is the Auditorium, between Capital and Texas,
Louisiana and Milam.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
He may be right. The RR used to be the San Antonio and Aransas Pass
(see the 1891 pictorial map). So maybe the label is the RR. The
"Road" wset of the Poor Farm might be the end of "Bissonnet Road".
Richmond Road first makes a jog south just past Sheppard Dam Road. It
turns west before getting to the RR tracks, What looks like a road is
actually the contour, the rail line heading south from Institute,
ditches, and whatever the dashed line to the north means. The
westward segment crosses Reynolds Road, it then jogs south to the
south side of the RR tracks, and then follows the tracks, crossing
to the north side at Edloe. It's possible that by the time that the
Professor arrived in Houston, that Richmond Avenue had been built out
beyond Shephard, or that Richmond Road had been extended in along the
RR tracks.
--
Jim Riley
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>What is now W.Dallas was San Felipe and there was a trolley loop that
>ended just short of the railroad tracks east of what is now Montrose
>(where the houses also ended. Houses also ended just a few block
>south of Pierce. 5 Train depots (Grand Central Depot off of
>Washington; Union Depot, roughly Dowling and Franklin; Gulf, Colorado,
>and Santa Fe Depot, Congress and midway between Chartres and "West
>Broadway" (Broadway was three blocks east of Chartres, West Broadway
>and East Broadway were parallel to it); New Orleans Depot, off of
>Montgomery (which appears to be about where North Main is); San
>Antonio & Aransas Pass Depot, Broadway and Lamar.
W. Dallas is a very old Houston street in 4th Ward. It was about on a
par with West Grey. San Felipe now ends at Shepherd and it could be
quite a feat for it to continue as what is now West Dallas about 10
blocks south in its intersection with Shepherd. The old TB Hospital
was on W. Dallas near Shepherd - now site of Lighthouse for the Blind.
Depot on Washington (where Post Office stands now ) was the _Southern
Pacific Depot_. A very impressive structure with elaborate murals,
etc. A poor bargin to trade it for the monstrosity that is the PO.
Union Station was main station and was located on Crawford and Texas.
I seem to recall the Wm. Penn Hotel across the street to the west. A
third small depot of the M-K-T line (Katy) was uner the south end of
Main St. viaduct about a block north of Franklin. The others are
before my time.
Montrose dead-ended at Westheimer for many years. A few blocks to the
north there was `Lincoln St.' (not a popular Houston name). I believe
Montrose was extended to absorb this street in '60's when Westmont
Lounge was torn down and several streets in the area made one way.
Montrose was a far different street than it is now - very exclusive
residential district.
The other names you note have all been greatly changed. Indeed, there
was a depot on `Broadway' where it starts from Harrisburg st. which
originally extended from Houston to Harrisburg (the town), now
absorbed. It was near this depot that the `Twin Sisters' of Texas
Revolutionary fame were hastily buried during the Civil War to prevent
their falling into the hands of the Yankees. They have never been
found to the present. Many tracks persist in the area where Harrisburg
bends to become Broadway.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
> It's possible that by the time that the
>Professor arrived in Houston, that Richmond Avenue had been built out
>beyond Shephard, or that Richmond Road had been extended in along the
>RR tracks.
Two distinct streets: Richmond Rd. and Richmond Ave. Very confusing
then just as now. Existed simultaneously in fairly close proximity.
Definitely was a gravel road on southside of Katy tracks, we used to
call the `short cut'. Definitely was a Westheimer. Hathaway become
Westheimer where it bends on west side of south Main. This is Elgin
(pronounced L Hard G in similar to El `kin' -name of old Houston
family). Elgin/Hathaway/Westheimer - all the same street. Alabama is
between Westheimer and Richmond Ave. Alabama Ice House is very old
place. Both Richmonds were residential streets. Construction of
Southwest Freeway, Greenway Plaza, West Loop 610 was like shuffling
the cards and redealing this whole area. Similar drastic changes
followed the construction of Gulf Freeway, and south and east parts of
Loop.
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:22:57 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>> It's possible that by the time that the
>>Professor arrived in Houston, that Richmond Avenue had been built out
>>beyond Shephard, or that Richmond Road had been extended in along the
>>RR tracks.
>
>Two distinct streets: Richmond Rd. and Richmond Ave. Very confusing
>then just as now. Existed simultaneously in fairly close proximity.
>Definitely was a gravel road on southside of Katy tracks, we used to
>call the `short cut'.
In the 1921 map there was no road along the RR tracks east of Kirby.
And there was no road where Richmond Avenue is now west of Greenbriar.
What are now San Felipe, Westheimer, and Alabama crossed the area (the
map goes from about Wesleyan to past Main). The streets have the same
kinks as they do now, though some have been straightened a bit.
Westheimer had a 1/2 block jog at Edloe, it is now more of a bend.
San Felipe stopped at Sheppard Dam Road. The 1891 map shows West
Dallas as being San Felipe, so maybe San Felipe connected to that
segment along Shephard.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:50:53 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>wrote:
>
>>What is now W.Dallas was San Felipe and there was a trolley loop that
>>ended just short of the railroad tracks east of what is now Montrose
>>(where the houses also ended. Houses also ended just a few block
>>south of Pierce. 5 Train depots (Grand Central Depot off of
>>Washington; Union Depot, roughly Dowling and Franklin; Gulf, Colorado,
>>and Santa Fe Depot, Congress and midway between Chartres and "West
>>Broadway" (Broadway was three blocks east of Chartres, West Broadway
>>and East Broadway were parallel to it); New Orleans Depot, off of
>>Montgomery (which appears to be about where North Main is); San
>>Antonio & Aransas Pass Depot, Broadway and Lamar.
>
>W. Dallas is a very old Houston street in 4th Ward. It was about on a
>par with West Grey. San Felipe now ends at Shepherd and it could be
>quite a feat for it to continue as what is now West Dallas about 10
>blocks south in its intersection with Shepherd. The old TB Hospital
>was on W. Dallas near Shepherd - now site of Lighthouse for the Blind.
The 1891 map shows different street names for the east-west streets in
the 4th Ward (i.e. not continuing the names from the downtown street
grid and sticking a West on them). I think San Felipe used to be
along West Dallas and then along Shephard. In 1922, what is now West
Dallas goes all the way out to Shephard, but the street grid in the
4th Ward doesn't get out to what is now Montrose. And then San Felipe
goes west from Shephard.
>Depot on Washington (where Post Office stands now ) was the _Southern
>Pacific Depot_. A very impressive structure with elaborate murals,
>etc. A poor bargin to trade it for the monstrosity that is the PO.
The 1891 "Grand Central Station" is a 3 story brick structure with the
ends one story, then two stories, and 3 stories in the center.
>Union Station was main station and was located on Crawford and Texas.
>I seem to recall the Wm. Penn Hotel across the street to the west.
The depots were further east in 1891. Did the tracks come in along
Texas or Prairie and dead end, or did they go North/South?
> A
>third small depot of the M-K-T line (Katy) was uner the south end of
>Main St. viaduct about a block north of Franklin. The others are
>before my time.
Main stopped at Commerce. The area is labelled as being the wharves.
There is a trolley bridge at San Jacinto, and a road bridge at Milam
and Commerce.
>Montrose dead-ended at Westheimer for many years. A few blocks to the
>north there was `Lincoln St.' (not a popular Houston name). I believe
>Montrose was extended to absorb this street in '60's when Westmont
>Lounge was torn down and several streets in the area made one way.
The 1921 map shows Montrose, Yoakum, Lovett, and Audobon as boulevards
with esplanades. The little boxes for houses along Lovett are bigger
than those in most areas. Montrose goes from Westheimer to Main,
though the other streets stop at the RR tracks. Lincoln still exists
as a one block street between Westheimer and Montrose (when Montrose
was extended north, it cut through the block east of Lincoln.
M
M
LM
L M
L M
WWWWWMW
M
M
I wonder whether that is Robert Todd Lincoln. The other streets in
the area except Grant) are named for rail barons and financiers
(Crocker, Stanford, Hopkins, Whitney, Morgan, Taft).
>Montrose was a far different street than it is now - very exclusive
>residential district.
>
>The other names you note have all been greatly changed. Indeed, there
>was a depot on `Broadway' where it starts from Harrisburg st. which
>originally extended from Houston to Harrisburg (the town), now
>absorbed. It was near this depot that the `Twin Sisters' of Texas
>Revolutionary fame were hastily buried during the Civil War to prevent
>their falling into the hands of the Yankees. They have never been
>found to the present. Many tracks persist in the area where Harrisburg
>bends to become Broadway.
Do you recall when Brent Hamburger during the LCS in 1986 referred to
a home run ball being hit "Way Down Broadway", and after being told
that Broadway wasn't a major street in Houston, changed it to "Way Out
Westheimer" for next game?
--
Jim Riley
Not Me
wrote:
West Dallas was originally called San Felipe Road, presumably because
the road ultimately went to San Fleipe. One of th ebooks I have on
Houston history mentions that there was much wailing and gnashing of
teeth when the name was changed to Dallas. The first Houston Country
Club was apparently off of Dallas(San Felipe) near the site of
Jefferson Davis Hospital, now an empty lot waiting for the Federal
Reserve to build a new building.
>
>>Depot on Washington (where Post Office stands now ) was the _Southern
>>Pacific Depot_. A very impressive structure with elaborate murals,
>>etc. A poor bargin to trade it for the monstrosity that is the PO.
>
>The 1891 "Grand Central Station" is a 3 story brick structure with the
>ends one story, then two stories, and 3 stories in the center.
>
>>Union Station was main station and was located on Crawford and Texas.
>>I seem to recall the Wm. Penn Hotel across the street to the west.
>
>The depots were further east in 1891. Did the tracks come in along
>Texas or Prairie and dead end, or did they go North/South?
>
>> A
>>third small depot of the M-K-T line (Katy) was uner the south end of
>>Main St. viaduct about a block north of Franklin. The others are
>>before my time.
>
>Main stopped at Commerce. The area is labelled as being the wharves.
>There is a trolley bridge at San Jacinto, and a road bridge at Milam
>and Commerce.
I think the Main Street Viaduct was built aorund 1900.
>
>>Montrose dead-ended at Westheimer for many years. A few blocks to the
>>north there was `Lincoln St.' (not a popular Houston name). I believe
>>Montrose was extended to absorb this street in '60's when Westmont
>>Lounge was torn down and several streets in the area made one way.
>
>The 1921 map shows Montrose, Yoakum, Lovett, and Audobon as boulevards
>with esplanades. The little boxes for houses along Lovett are bigger
>than those in most areas. Montrose goes from Westheimer to Main,
>though the other streets stop at the RR tracks. Lincoln still exists
>as a one block street between Westheimer and Montrose (when Montrose
>was extended north, it cut through the block east of Lincoln.
Those streets were home to many of Houston's movers and shakers. The
building that houses the offices for St. Thomas University was
formerly the Link House, built by developer John Link. Howar Hughes
grew up in a large house on Yoakum. Lovett was an extension of
Courtland Place, the first platted subdivision in Houston.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:31:35 GMT, vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com
>(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:22:57 -0500, Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> It's possible that by the time that the
>>>Professor arrived in Houston, that Richmond Avenue had been built out
>>>beyond Shephard, or that Richmond Road had been extended in along the
>>>RR tracks.
>>
>>Two distinct streets: Richmond Rd. and Richmond Ave. Very confusing
>>then just as now. Existed simultaneously in fairly close proximity.
>>Definitely was a gravel road on southside of Katy tracks, we used to
>>call the `short cut'.
>
>In the 1921 map there was no road along the RR tracks east of Kirby.
>And there was no road where Richmond Avenue is now west of Greenbriar.
>What are now San Felipe, Westheimer, and Alabama crossed the area (the
>map goes from about Wesleyan to past Main). The streets have the same
>kinks as they do now, though some have been straightened a bit.
>Westheimer had a 1/2 block jog at Edloe, it is now more of a bend.
>San Felipe stopped at Sheppard Dam Road. The 1891 map shows West
>Dallas as being San Felipe, so maybe San Felipe connected to that
>segment along Shephard.
West Dallas and San Felipe don't even run parallel. SF dead ends at
Shepherd. West Gray dead ends at Shepherd between (coming from
opposite direction. West Dallas also comes from the opposite direction
to Shepherd, parallel to West Gray. Gravel roads often don't make it
on to maps. Most of Houston ended at Shepherd - Greenbriar in the area
you're talking about at that time. River Oaks came later except for a
few houses. S. Main south of Bellaire (Holcombe) only contained a few
houses. Ditto West U and Bellaire.
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
>The depots were further east in 1891. Did the tracks come in along
>Texas or Prairie and dead end, or did they go North/South?
Deadended at Union Station - Trains backed in.
>> A
>>third small depot of the M-K-T line (Katy) was uner the south end of
>>Main St. viaduct about a block north of Franklin. The others are
>>before my time.
>
>Main stopped at Commerce. The area is labelled as being the wharves.
>There is a trolley bridge at San Jacinto, and a road bridge at Milam
>and Commerce.
Katy Depo - Commerce at Main
Jim Riley
(Professor Vonroach) wrote:
They both run east and west. In 1891, what we now call West Dallas
was called San Felipe. In 1921, San Felipe ended at Shepherd. There
were no streets where Vermont is now.
>West Gray dead ends at Shepherd between (coming from
>opposite direction.
In 1921, there were no streets where West Gray is now, except east of
Montrose. There were no streets where Inwood is now.
>West Dallas also comes from the opposite direction
>to Shepherd, parallel to West Gray.
Which was why I said that it appears the Shepherd connected the two
segments of what was once called San Felipe.
> Gravel roads often don't make it
>on to maps.
This is a USGS Topo sheet. Driveways make it on to the maps.
> Most of Houston ended at Shepherd - Greenbriar in the area
>you're talking about at that time.
In 1921, Houston didn't get as far west as Shephard. Only a few
streets, such as what are now West Dallas, Westheimer, Alabama,
Richmond, Bissonnet, and Bellaire did.
--
Jim Riley
Professor Vonroach
wrote:
I was perusing a map of the area made by an early French expedition
that don't show any streets. Just a few dots on Galveston Island named
Pirates and the Mouth of the Mississippi on a bit of water, now called
San Luis Pass.
Al and Sharon Amabile
"Professor Vonroach" <vonr...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3af91bc5...@NNTP.ix.netcom.com...
Professor Vonroach
Actually the French were very adequate. LaSalle was the misguided
mariner who was searching for the mouth of the Mississippi, which is
not an easy job through the maze of the delta. He was trying every
candidate as he proceeded along the coast and lost a ship in an
attempt to enter West Bay at San Luis Pass. He subsequently
established a colony in Matagorda County at the site that still bears
the name on coastal highway (of later construction). Colonists ran out
of food and began eating each other which appealed to the local
Caranchaua indians who converted to cannibalism and devoured the last
few colonists. La Salle had set off to the east looking for help, was
ambushed and killed by indians just short of his goal - St. Louis (a
long and difficult walk from Matagorda Coast) so he was pretty good at
land cruising. More detailed account in "Cannibal Coast" or other
accounts of the now extinct Caranchaua indians (last one died in
Matagorda County about 1900). Cannibalism was very rare among
American aborigines, this interesting group of outcasts prowled the
upper Texas Gulf coast scorned by other indian tribes. Only a few
geographical references remain - such as in West Bay.
Gulf Coast is a nightmare coast with pirates, cannibals, killer
storms, yellow fever, plantations, fierce plains aborigines
(Comanche), wandering (usually lost) explorers, yankees freezing to
death attempting to stop Civil War blockade runners from Mexico, etc.
There is a blood-curdling tale about most of the peaceful-looking
beaches and coastal meadows. It's a `Stephen King' coast for sure.
>
Al and Sharon Amabile
going to correct that too????
Have a good one, sweet potatoe~!
An Amabile person.
Professor Vonroach
I would expect that to be the color of the ancient paper on which some
of the maps of `Houston' are found. There is very little link between
the `Houston' of a few decades ago and the present `Houston' except
for some of us who have lived the long moment.