Translation of this line of poetry: 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
moon.neko
it is in rather classical Japanese, which I'm not at all used to - am
really struggling with it.
I'm quite stuck on this particular line and could use some help!
Minoru Mochizuki
meaning of it:
"A tree of magnolia on the other side of the valley has grown year after
year so that its flowers now can be seen from my house across the river."
I am not always a man of practical things alone or chokuyaku. I love to
paint, for example.
Minoru Mochizuki
Alan Siegrist
> 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
As:
> "A tree of magnolia on the other side of the valley has grown year after
> year so that its flowers now can be seen from my house across the river."
This looks good, except that perhaps "magnolia tree" might work better than
"tree of magnolia," but where do you get the "across the river" part?
Curious,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Kirill Sereda
Kirill
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Siegrist
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:02 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Translation of this line of poetry: 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育
ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
Alan Siegrist
> >>where do you get the "across the river" part?
> 渓へだつ?
I interpreted that as being the "on the other side of the valley" part of
the translation. I think the kanji 渓 is an old equivalent of 谷, so this
would be "valley" not river.
Hence my confusion as to where "river" came from.
But maybe I am missing something.
Regards,
Minoru Mochizuki
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Siegrist
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:02 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Translation of this line of poetry: 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育
ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
Minoru Mochizuki translates:
> 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
As:
It represents さはの花見ゆ, which more literally means the "flowers of the
brook" but it is also clear that the tree is on the other side of the valley
(more precisely a small gorge) from 渓へだつ. 渓 is not of course a great
gorge as a canyon.
I have spent more time than I wish to spend (it's not that I am too busy; I
am just not so much interested in such details such as magnolia tree and
tree of magnolia). You can fiddle with it if you like, Alan. I am out of
this.
Minoru
Alan Siegrist
> where do you get the "across the river" part?
>
> It represents さはの花見ゆ
Ah, thank you! I see that さは is the old kana for さわ (written with the
kanji 沢).
I was going under the assumption that さは was the word also written 然は,
and defined as follows:
| さ【然】
| ...
| 然は
| (1) 副詞「さ」を強めた言い方。そのようには。そうは。そうとは。
| ＊竹取「なにの疑ひあらむ。さは申すとも、はや焼きて見給へ」
-国語大辞典（新装版）(c)小学館 1988.
I really don't know if this makes any sense in this instance. Probably not.
Regards,
Kirill Sereda
not river.
hundred times while mountaneering in the TianShan. 渓, a fast, clean,
sparkling stream filled with deliciouis trout children catch with their
hands.
It's a narrow valley, with a fast stream rushing down. Trout under the big
stones.
Kirill
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Siegrist
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:35 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Translation of this line of poetry: 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育
ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
Alan Siegrist
> >> I think the kanji 渓 is an old equivalent of 谷, so this would be
> >> "valley" not river.
> To me, he kanji 渓 is the kind of mountain river I have encountered a
> hundred times while mountaneering in the TianShan. 渓, a fast, clean,
> sparkling stream filled with deliciouis trout children catch with their
> hands.
This sounds lovely. I looked up 渓 in a Chinese dictionary, and as you say
in Chinese it means a "small stream; brook; rivulet."
But unfortunately Japanese is of course not Chinese and even though Japanese
borrowed the character 渓 from Chinese, all of my Japanese dictionaries
indicate that 渓 has the reading たに and means the same as 谷 or 谿, so it
is a valley or ravine, not a river.
It is interesting how the meanings of words change when borrowed from
another language.
And I had not before now considered how closely associated "river" and
"valley" are. All rivers flow in valleys and most valleys have rivers in
them. Most valleys are formed by erosion due to their river, although some
valleys are formed by glaciers or perhaps seismic or other geological
activity.
But in English we clearly distinguish the river (the running water) from the
valley through which it runs.
B. Hyman
"Alan Siegrist" <AlanFS...@Comcast.net> wrote:
> This sounds lovely. I looked up 渓 in a Chinese dictionary, and as you say
> in Chinese it means a "small stream; brook; rivulet."
>
> But unfortunately Japanese is of course not Chinese and even though Japanese
> borrowed the character 渓 from Chinese, all of my Japanese dictionaries
> indicate that 渓 has the reading たに and means the same as 谷 or 谿, so it
> is a valley or ravine, not a river.
I don't translate poetry, but couldn't this be referring to a 渓流 as
opposed to the physical 渓 that surrounds it?
FWIW,
---------------------------------------------
Brian Hyman
mli...@yokomoji.com
---------------------------------------------
Shinya Suzuki
Shinya Suzuki
Aaron Madlon-Kay
{名}たに。細くつながるたに川。
So while I have never seen 渓 mean anything other than "valley" in
modern Japanese, it seems that at some level it can also mean "river"
in Japanese as well as Chinese (unless you want to argue that Kanjigen
is a Chinese-Japanese dictionary, not Japanese-Japanese). Since the
poem in question is clearly in premodern Japanese, which is most
likely to be similar to Chinese, wouldn't it be reasonable to
interpret it as "river" here?
-Aaron
Dale Ponte
that by たに they just as likely meant the creek itself. As by やま in
ordinary conversation, as I recall, they'd be talking about their
timberland specifically. It was a 'headwaters hamlet', incidentally,
and for generations they've been called おくもの by villagers young and
old downriver, just as if they carried some sort of miasma; it was all
too weird.
My Mac dictionary has culoir, "a steep, narrow valley on a
mountainside," from the French where it means ‘gully or corridor,
originating "from couler ‘to flow’." Maybe not 渓 exactly, but
conceptually quite similar.
If it were me, I might end up favoring "across the *creek" for 渓へだつ.
Dictionary tracks (furrows) aside, from British Columbia I've got it
in me that "creek" can just as well be a brawny rushing river sort of
thing in a large-scale ravine, though of glacial origin. And 渓 are
usually, if not as a rule, tributaries. I also feel that, other
choices conspiring, "creek" would lend a certain intimacy, and
soundwise the sprightly tumble of "across the creek" might be
auspicious.
Ultimately, translator must assume the role of creator, I say.
Transcreator.
Wax'em poetic, MoonCat!
~
Dale Ponte
Marc Adler
"valley" are. All rivers flow in valleys and most valleys have rivers in
Not all rivers flow in valleys, unless you want to call the riverbed a valley.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/ColoradoTexas_Watershed.png
The area from Columbus to Bay City is about the flattest land you'll ever encounter.
But in English we clearly distinguish the river (the running water) from the
valley through which it runs.
You could hedge your bets and use "river valley" in the poem.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
nirebloga.wordpress.com
mudawwanatii.wordpress.com
blogsheli.wordpress.com
Laurie Berman
I think the word "valley" tends to convey the image of a 盆地, which
gives it a very tranquil, pastoral sort of nuance. To me, 溪 suggests
something wild, something in the mountains with water running through
it. Perhaps I'm way off on this, but if the distinction is valid,
then "valley" is definitely to be avoided. After all, the first word
can set the whole tone of the poem.
I think the same could be applied to "magnolia." To most of us, a
magnolia is an ornamental tree that people grow in their gardens. But
a 朴の木 grows in the woods. It's a wild magnolia. And BTW it
blooms in June (unlike モクレン, which is early spring).
さわの花 suggests to me wildflowers growing in a marshy area, but
perhaps that meaning can be expanded to include any flowers blooming
in the wild near the water. In either case, I think its fair to say
that one doesn't often use the term to apply to flowers cultivated by
human beings.
What I'm getting at is that all of these words establish the place
and time, and if you get that wrong, you've got the poem wrong. Never
mind all the layers of literary meaning associated with those words
and images. Learning classical Japanese is just the first step. (This
is why I don't translate poetry.)
Laurie Berman
Laurie Berman
On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Laurie Berman wrote:
> After all, the first word
> can set the whole tone of the poem.
I guess that was a little confusing. I was referring to the Japanese
poem, and the way 溪 (or, if you will, the phrase 渓へだつ朴の
一樹) sets the tone.
Alan Siegrist
Marc Adler writes:
"valley" are. All rivers flow in valleys and most valleys have rivers in
Not all rivers flow in valleys, unless you want to call the riverbed a valley.
I think what I said was accurate. I believe “valley” is the most general term to refer to any depression or lowland lying between uplands, hills or mountains, especially one that carries a stream or river.
I believe a stream or river is the defining feature of a valley, which constitutes the watershed of that river. The point is that, thanks to universal gravity making water flow downhill, rivers always flow in valleys and not over mountain peaks or across ridgelines.
Now naturally, there are more specific words for different types of valley, depending on its specific geology: basin, canyon, ravine, gorge, gully, etc. But they are all valleys.
Even the huge area drained by the Mississippi River is called the “Mississippi valley” or the “Mississippi River valley” and it is certainly extremely flat in some or most areas with almost no mountains to be seen. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_River
I think Shinya Suzuki was very perceptive to note that “valley” in English is not always an exact equivalent of 谷 in Japanese.
Laurie Berman
On Nov 10, 2009, at 12:11 PM, Alan Siegrist wrote:
> I think what I said was accurate. I believe “valley”
> is the most general term to refer to any depression or lowland
> lying between uplands, hills or mountains, especially one that
> carries a stream or river.
>
> I believe a stream or river is the defining feature of a valley,
> which constitutes the watershed of that river. The point is that,
> thanks to universal gravity making water flow downhill, rivers
> always flow in valleys and not over mountain peaks or across
> ridgelines.
>
On the one hand, you're saying that all rivers have a valley, which I
would probably accept. On the other hand you're saying that all
valleys have a river, which I'm not at all sure about. In any case, I
don't think "valley" automatically conjures up the image of flowing
water, while 渓 probably does.
Laurie Berman
Alan Siegrist
> On the other hand you're saying that all
> valleys have a river, which I'm not at all sure about.
No, I did not say *all* valleys have a river. You will note that I very
carefully wrote:
> most valleys have rivers in them.
There certainly are dry valleys that have only a dry riverbed at the bottom
or valleys that get little precipitation so that its river or stream only
flows part of the time. Some valleys previously had a flowing river, but
some event diverted the river elsewhere so that it is now dry.
> In any case, I
> don't think "valley" automatically conjures up the image of flowing
> water, while 渓 probably does.
I think you are very perceptive about the image of a valley. We think of the
valley as being a general geographic area but don't associate it too closely
to a river which usually flows through the valley.
I'm just saying that we should not be too surprised to note that rivers
usually have a river associated with them.
Alan Siegrist
> I'm just saying that we should not be too surprised to note that rivers
> usually have a river associated with them.
Um, that should be "valleys usually have a river."
Chika Kamiya
glance:
朴の木が我が家と谷の間に一本生えていた。これまでこれに遮られて見えなかったけれど、年々育って根元に茂る葉が今はすっかり見上げる高さになるまで成長し、隙間ができたので、家から沢に咲く花が見えるようになった。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9B%E3%82%AA%E3%83%8E%E3%82%AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_obovata
The Japanese Wikipedia shows the Japanese Obata Magnolia well, and it will
help you understand why the tree cuts off the author's view. Its leaves
overwrap each other, thick and dense.
This is my extra imagination (nothing to do with the interpretation of this
和歌). His/her house might be a typical Japanese farmer's house, and the
window of its second floor is not always placed as high as modern houses but
just as high as the tree. If the tree grows a little higher, then you can
see the flowers blooming near the stream.
By the way, it says 沢（さは）, so there should be a stream.
Chika
Marc Adler
朴の木が我が家と谷の間に一本生えていた。これまでこれに遮られて見えなかったけれど、年々育って根元に茂る葉が今はすっかり見上げる高さになるまで成長し、隙間ができたので、家から沢に咲く花が見えるようになった。
With the magnolia trees I've seen (in Louisiana and Alabama), this isn't possible, because the branches come right to the ground. There's either no gap between the ground and the foliage or only a gap of maybe a foot or two.
http://share.triangle.com/sites/share-uda.triangle.com/files/images/Java55_MagnoliaClimbing_27-Sept-09.preview.JPG
I'm assuming Japanese magnolia trees are different in this regard.
David Farnsworth
Exactly right. The Japanese language, by virtue of Japan’s narrow, mountainous geography, does not consider vast plains to be valleys. (For an example, see the Tone-gawa, which flows through the Kanto Heiya, NOT the Tone Valley.) The Mississippi River valley is many times larger than the whole nation of Japan (when the Ohio River and Missouri River valleys are added in), yet Americans see it for a valley, and not just as the Great Plains.
I was also amused by one respondent’s comment that the San Fernando Valley doesn’t look like a valley to him. The above restrictions on Japanese valleys still applies here, too, I think. But if it wasn’t so smoggy, the mountains surrounding the San Fernando Valley in all directions would be perfectly visible, making it a valley even by Japan’s narrower standards.
David Farnsworth
From:
hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Siegrist
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:11 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Translation of this line of poetry: 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
Even the huge area drained by the Mississippi River is called the “Mississippi valley” or the “Mississippi River valley” and it is certainly extremely flat in some or most areas with almost no mountains to be seen. See:
Dale Ponte
*Well intentioned mostly-off-the-cuff alert*, written before
discovering, but hopefully dovetailing Chika's generous input:
With no _great confidence, I've been inclined to read the て of 育ちて in
the "suspensive" sense as explained by Wixted (_A Handbook to
Classical Japanese_, pp. 39-41), in particular: "It is advisable to
render such initial clauses, at least provisionally, with a
participial construction in English--namely, using an "_-ing_" phrase
(...) and to leave the "main freight" of action, thought, etc., to the
sentence's final clause and its rendering." Wixted goes on to cite
nine "uses for the 'suspensive' in the modern language--ones arguably
no less applicable to bungo (...)":
1. Temporal sequence: 'and then'
2. Consequence: 'and so'
3. Manner: 'by -ing'
4. Contrast: 'but'
5. Concession: 'and yet, even so'
6. Condition: '-ing' meaning 'if'
or 'when'
7. Instrument: 'by -ing'
8. Witness or exemplification: 'and in proof thereof'
9. Simple conjoining: 'and' or ';'
I'd humbly submit that its sense in the poem at hand could well
reflect a synthesis of more than one of the above "uses," rather than
one or the other exclusively.
Any info, in other words background, location, etc., relating to the
poem's composition that MoonCat has in his or her paws (grins;) could
prove decisive as to whittling the English. Heh, come to think of it,
interesting how a translated tiny poem like this can seem to turn into
a species of 根付 :-)
... Even throughout profession let love prevail,
Dale Ponte
Wixted's Handbook proves priceless again, again and again ...
Good as pearls and gold on the translator's reference shelf.
Chika Kamiya
Alan Siegrist
plain-English translation.
> 渓へだつ朴の一樹の年々に育ちて家よりさはの花見ゆ
"A magnolia tree which had blocked our view of the river valley has grown
over the years so that now we can see the flowers of the marsh from the
house."
This interpretation gives a picture of a more pastoral river flowing
leisurely in a gently sloping valley with marshes here and there, but
naturally a few word changes here and there could imply the steeper-sloping
"wild" ravine suggested by some. In this case, the flowers would be more
likely growing "by" the mountain stream as opposed to "in" the marsh as in
my interpretation above.
I suspect that either interpretation is plausible.
Marc Adler
"A magnolia tree which had blocked our view of the river valley has grown
over the years so that now we can see the flowers of the marsh from the
house."
Since we've deconstructed the whole tani/valley/river thing, can we take a look at sawa/marsh? Are these really the same thing?
Chika Kamiya
Laurie Berman
On Nov 10, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Alan Siegrist wrote:
> "A magnolia tree which had blocked our view of the river valley has
> grown
> over the years so that now we can see the flowers of the marsh from
> the
> house."
I'm not very comfortable with this interpretation. The idea of
something getting big enough to allow one to see through it is pretty
counterintuitive, and the imagery of (unspecified) flowers seen
through a flowering tree is confusing. And this way the season is no
longer specified.
As I picture it, the tree has grown large enough so that its flowers
are now visible above the vegetation that was blocking it before. It
is June, when the 朴の木 blooms.
A stream fits into the scene very well, probably better than "marsh,"
but I'm curious as to why my dictionaries say "marsh," while all the
NJSs think "stream."
Laurie Berman
Tom Donahue
> A stream fits into the scene very well, probably better than "marsh,"
> but I'm curious as to why my dictionaries say "marsh," while all the
> NJSs think "stream."
Context. The second definition of 沢 in Kojien is 「山間の渓谷」.
My image of this scene is something like this, with a tree on the
other side of a stream or small river.
http://img01.naturum.ne.jp/usr/kawasemi/戸切地上流入渓地点.jpg
Are the さはの花 flowers reflected in the stream?
--
Tom Donahue
Chika Kamiya
朴、タイサンボク、もくれんは枝の先にかなり大きな花がさきます。木の高さがどうであれ、いつでも見えます。
朴は30メートルくらいに育ちます。実際この詩の中ではどのくらいかは分かりませんが、木の高さと、沢の位置、家の位置の高低の対比がこの詩の情景に奥行きを与えています。沢の花を考えるとき、春から初夏、もちろん朴の花の季節かもしれません。するともう一つ対比ができて面白いんですが、作者の視点が目立つ朴の大きな花に行っていないので、朴の花が咲いている季節とは考えにくいです。ただし、見えなかった花が見えるようになったと言っているので、葉が繁茂している季節ではあります。
余談ですが、タイサンボクの花びらをですね、杯の代わりにしてお酒を頂くのは風流なもんですよ。
Chika
Dale Ponte
>can we take a
> look at sawa/marsh? Are these really the same thing?
exists in reality and were ascertainable, it would be a crux of
interpretation.
For now, my own vision of this sawa is of a sort of perennial, rivulet-
fed *soak, beloved as well of salamanders and snakes, set close to the
where a slope terminates, or at a spot where a very small さこ opens
onto the hamlet. In either case, I imagine, it's of the perimeter of
the hamlet; tho being in this case on t'other side of the main
(spinal) watercourse, it might also include a certain sense of being
"beyond the perimeter," a rooted angelic visitor somewhat hailing from
the sublime wild (天然の妙). :D
The rivulet could be really teensy. Tinkling faintly, of course.
With a footless ethereal Daoist-looking dude--myself, say--sprawled
alongside among the dry-ish aromatic pillows of mosses 'n fungi...
~
Dale Ponte
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Goya-Guerra_%2871%29.jpg
Makoto Sakamoto
百聞は一見に如かずでしょう。「この」（下掲の）二例をくらべてご覧に
なれば、NESsの皆さんにも、私どもNJSsの脳裏に浮かぶ沢と渓それ
ぞれの風景がおわかりになるでしょう。
沢（さわ）
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-Desert/5551/itimai62.jpg
渓／渓谷
http://www.city.fujioka.gunma.jp/f_bunkazai/jyabami.htm
沢には、たとえば「わさび」のように清冽な水を好む植物が育ちます。
つまり、渓流そのものと、その両岸で水の流れを通過させる無数の
小石の集積層とを総合的に示す言葉が沢であると言えるでしょう。
一方、渓では、「渓流釣り」のように、イワナやヤマメなどの魚が釣れ
るのが普通です。つまり、山間で小川の流れる「深山幽谷」のように
ひっそりとした、ごく小さい谷を思い浮かべさせるのが渓です。
アメリカの「バレー」や、スイスのWallisのように広大な流域を示す言葉
としては、谷はあてはまりませんね。では、valleyに相当する日本語で
ぴったりした言葉は何でしょう － どうも、流域のほかには無さそうですね。
Mak
Laurie Berman
On Nov 10, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Chika Kamiya wrote:
> さはの花 という言葉から樹上の花はありえないでしょう
To tell the truth, that was what I thought at first, but then I did
some image googling and came across some images of flowering trees
with the caption さわの花. However, I will defer to native
speakers on this. (If they can agree.)
So, is this a good poem?
Laurie Berman
Mika Jarmusz
To supplement what Chika-san wrote, for the tree to be blocking the view of the creekbed (where the flowers are now visible), the house must be sitting further uphill from the tree.
学研古語辞典
隔つ《他動詞・タ行下二段活用》
(間を)離す。(間を)仕切る。さえぎる。隔てる。
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
Chika Kamiya
窓の位置（あるいは縁側か）、木の成長した分の隙間からようやっと見えるようになった先に見える風景は地面に近くないと物理的に変じゃありませんかしら？ さらに、私達が座る場所は椅子ではなく床の上に座布団を敷いて座る民族なので、この高さから見える先を体験していただくとなぜ私がしつこく「木の花ではない」と言うのかお分かり頂ける事でしょう。このような沢に近いお宅が、堂々の洋館だとは現実的ではありませんしね。坂元さんがご指摘のように、山葵などの清流の花が思い起こされます。それは渓とさわの花という表現からなんです。あるいは草花でしょうか。沢に何の花が咲いていたか興味はありますが、この和歌ではそれが主題ではなく、あくまで今まで見えなかったものが見えるようになった小さな驚き、時の経過、日常の不思議に焦点があります．．．
いずれにせよ、風流でよいですね。こんなお家に住みたい．．．
Chika
Minoru Mochizuki
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chika Kamiya
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:59 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Translation of this line of poetry:
ごめんくださいませ。しつこくて。
ですね、こういう話題になると。Enjoy!
Minoru Mochizuki
Chika Kamiya
はい、ついはまってしまいましたです。
楽しいですよね、こういうお題は．．．
Chika
Chika Kamiya
沢と渓／渓谷ではご指摘頂きました様にずいぶん趣が違いますよね。
そして山葵の花と渓流釣り．．．わー、なんだかその場にいるような気分になれました。
ありがとうございます。
朴の花よりもあれは葉っぱの方が有名です。朴の木を出してくるところを見ると岐阜かなぁ、と想像してみました。すると、重畳ではなく山肌に張り付くように建つ家じゃないかと思うんですよね。小さな前庭付きの．．．で、朴葉味噌と朴の葉で飛騨牛を焼く。すみません、なんだか脱線しました。
Chika (back to work!)
Dale Ponte
Curious to learn what, if any, external evidence MoonCat may be able
to furnish.
Being within sight of the homestead would seem to limit where the
flowered sawa could be situated. If it's one homestead among others
in a more or less typical hamletscape, then it would seem that the
sawa couldn't be portrayed as being back up a ravine. It wouldn't be
one all by it's lonesome up inside some ravine, would it? Severe
estate that'd be...
Mak wrote:
>沢には、たとえば「わさび」のように清冽な水を好む植物が育ちます
や～！懐かしい 。。Have on several occasions nibbled flowering spring wasabi
sprigs right from the 深山幽谷のfreshet, with plenty of snow still on the
boulders--and mind you, without uprooting them! Spirit Greens! Such
delicate nourishment lingers for a lifetime, I tell you. Old folks in
my village showed me where they used to have little 山葵畑, pretty much
right among the homesteads, mostly, or hard by. They would guide,
mold and cultivate naturally occurring ... さわ, reliably fed by 清冽な水,
into 山葵畑. If I must fail to attain Aurobindo's "Life Divine," which
is looking highly likely, how grinningly I'd settle for a realm where 山
葵畑 flourish. ちなみに, 山葵, as a symbolic harbinger of a dangerously toxic
environment, would be called "yellow canary" in English.
http://yellowcanary.com/about/
http://petcaretips.net/picture-canary-coal-mine.html
Viva 山葵,
Dale
Chika Kamiya
重畳 → 頂上
Chika
Alan Siegrist
> Being within sight of the homestead would seem to limit where the
> flowered sawa could be situated.
Yes, it would seem so.
> If it's one homestead among others
> in a more or less typical hamletscape, then it would seem that the
> sawa couldn't be portrayed as being back up a ravine. It wouldn't be
> one all by it's lonesome up inside some ravine, would it? Severe
> estate that'd be...
Yes, that is what I was thinking. If the 渓 and 沢 refer to mountain streams
in steep terrain, it might be rather difficult to peer down into the stream
itself and see the flowers the unless the house is raised. Perhaps this
could be done with some sort of raised verandah or deck or such. But this
does not sound like a traditional Japanese house.
I am thinking that if the terrain were more flat, it would not be so
difficult to see the flowers in the stream even from a typical tatami-seated
position as Chika mentions. If the terrain were flatter, the near bank of
the stream would not be so much in the way of the line of sight.
Just a little food for thought.
Mika Jarmusz
私もそう思いました。実際の傾斜はわかりませんが。
> 床の上に座布団を敷いて座る民族なので、
窓の外の沢を見下ろすのなら、立ってでもいいと思いますよ。山の上の質素な家屋を思わせますし。
渓へだつ（5）
朴の一樹の（7）
年々に（5）
育ちて家より（8）
さはの花見ゆ（7）
これ、渓がこの一帯で、ここに木があって、その高さが前はこれぐらいだったのが今はこれぐらいになっていて、窓がこの辺の高さで、そこから見たら木の下のこの辺に沢が見えて花が咲いていた、というところを図に書いてみたいんですけど、もどかしいですね。
Sayaka Nakai
I make Tanka poetry and may have been some help.
I will be attending poets meeting tomorrow and would like to ask
around, if this subject still needs extra information.
And will keep eyes on this group (sorry I did not do so for many
month) from now on.
kanji saito
す。作者の頭の中に浮かんだ情景を歌ったものかもしれません。となると、物理
的な視線を追うことにあまり意味はないと思います。
物理的には不可能であるけれど、作者の頭に浮かんだ情景を歌ったものとしてよ
く知られている例で言えば「田毎の月」という表現があります。棚田の1枚1枚に
月が写っている、という情景を頭に思い浮かべますが、物理的にこれはありえま
せん。
斉藤 完治
Chika Kamiya
Mika Jarmusz
だとすれば、じっと静止して見るのではなく、夜のそぞろ歩きの情景を味わおうってことでは？
実在の場所か否かにまでこだわる必要はないでしょうが、
意図された情景が伝わって来なければ、翻訳はお手上げでしょう。
エッシャーのだまし絵の中にいるのか、鏡の国に紛れ込んだのかわからないような
支離滅裂の空間しか浮かばないようでは翻訳はできません。
原文が不出来なのであれば、それはしかたがありませんが、
Chikaさんが書かれたような見当で、ほぼ訳せるのでは？(私には英訳はできませんが。）
Chika Kamiya
juni...@aol.com
ました。これが本物でしたらよい資料になります。もちろん左上の文字通りの「田毎の月」は合成
写真です。これを幾何光学的に説明しているひとがいます。
http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~gaido/fusigi/tagoto.htm
にあります。
Subject: Re: Translation of this line of poetry:
Marc Adler
This is the way I had always interpreted it. Not all the moons simultaneously, but the moon as reflected in each immersed paddy as you're walking (or in my case driving) past them.
Laurie Berman
Laurie Berman
Mika Jarmusz
> http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~gaido/fusigi/tagoto.htm
面白い考察ですが、それはさておき
棚田にあまたの月が一斉に映る、という田毎の月の解釈はいつごろ生じたのでしょう？
今や私自身を含め、棚田に映る月はおろか棚田を歩いたことのある人がいったい何人いるでしょう？
毎は「ごと」であって、毎日、毎回、毎年、毎号のようにそれが続けばevery xxとも訳せますが、
everyone, everything, everywhere などを「毎＿」と訳すことはできません。こちらには総や全、皆、などの字が相応しくなります。
もしや上記のページをお書きになった方は「田毎の月が物理的に可能かどうか」というよりも、
田毎の月を「ザ ムーン イン エブリー ライスパディー」と混同（if not 直訳）してはならぬ由の立証を果たされたのではないでしょうか。
Alan Siegrist
Chika Kamiya writes:
Here is a nice image of Hiroshige’s 更科田毎の月:
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/doc_doppler8181/e/38690c7e2085a49668001ec87d5a813b
This is clearly physically impossible as depicted in the painting. And I don’t think this impossibility can be solved by thinking of seeing different images in the different paddies while walking by, since all of the images of the moon are shown in a single painting.
But Hiroshige is not the only painter to have painted impossible or illogical reflections in his paintings.
For example, see the famous painting “Nude Venus at her Mirror” also known as “The Toilet of Venus” by Diego Velasquez:
http://www.famous-painters.org/Diego-Velazquez/Nude-Venus-at-Her-Mirror.shtm
It is impossible for the recumbent Venus to see her own reflection in the mirror as shown in the painting, since her face is reflected so that the observer (the painter or the viewer of the painting) can see her face. Venus would see the painter reflected in the mirror, not her own face. Why would Cupid be presenting the mirror at such an angle that Venus cannot see her own reflection?
Also, the image of the face in the mirror is larger than her own face, and this too is impossible without an enlarging mirror which did not exist at the time the painting was done and would not fit in a flat square frame anyway.
But perhaps all of this impossibility can be swept under the rug as “artistic license” or “poetic license.” They are still nice paintings and poems.
Alan Siegrist
> I'm afraid we've scared the bejabbers out of moon neko.
Yes, it appears that moon neko has "left the building" as they say.