"oranda", "igirisu" and so on...
sls
> [...] and please, the country is called the Netherlands,
> Holland only refers to two provinces out of the twelve we have
Hello Jeroen,
your comment provided me with an opportunity to refine my understanding of the matter (the terms "Holland", "The Netherlands", and "Die Niederlande" have meant the same since i first learned them, and now i know more) - but the matter is still not as simple as that.
On the page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(terminology) there is a detailed explanation of this issue (plus much other interesting information). Specifically, it seems that while it would be inappropriate to mix those two terms in Dutch, common usage in English or German is as i learned it. Thus it would seem to me that as a writer or translator one should be aware of the matter and make the distinction, as appropriate, depending on the topic and one's target audience. For example, if a text was about the history, geography or culture of the Netherlands, parts of it, or areas adjacent to it, then the distinction you point out would be called for even in English, while it might seem unnecessary when talking about much more general topics to a non-specialist audience.
A comparable issue is that of using "England": this term is in many places and in general parlance synonymous with "Great Britain" or "the UK" (which terms themselves are not synonymous), but when, for example, writing about soccer or history it would be inappropriate to conflate any of them.
And, fnially, how do you deal with these matters in Japanese?
If "the Netherlands" is オランダ (or 和蘭; 阿蘭陀; 和蘭陀 for that matter) what term do you use to make reference to the provinces North Holland and South Holland?
And how about イギリス? We have "England", "Great Britan", the "UK" and "Britain" to chose from. Well, we _can_ write イングランド、ウェールズ、スコットランド、北アイルランドを含む立憲君主国 if we really want to be specific, but how we translate イギリス in each case depends on topic and target audience, as well.
Regards: Hendrik
--
* http://www.nihon-honyaku.com/ *
--
Jim Breen
> At 09:56 2008/05/18 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote:
>> [...] and please, the country is called the Netherlands,
>> Holland only refers to two provinces out of the twelve we have
> your comment provided me with an opportunity to refine my understanding of the matter (the terms "Holland", "The Netherlands", and "Die Niederlande" have meant the same since i first learned them, and now i know more) - but the matter is still not as simple as that.
>
> On the page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(terminology) there is a detailed explanation of this issue (plus much other interesting information). Specifically, it seems that while it would be inappropriate to mix those two terms in Dutch, common usage in English or German is as i learned it. Thus it would seem to me that as a writer or translator one should be aware of the matter and make the distinction, as appropriate, depending on the topic and one's target audience. For example, if a text was about the history, geography or culture of the Netherlands, parts of it, or areas adjacent to it, then the distinction you point out would be called for even in English, while it might seem unnecessary when talking about much more general topics to a non-specialist audience.
I quite agree. In English, "Holland" is a synonym of "The Netherlands".
> A comparable issue is that of using "England": this term is in many places and in general parlance synonymous with "Great Britain" or "the UK" (which terms themselves are not synonymous), but when, for example, writing about soccer or history it would be inappropriate to conflate any of them.
In general parlance, yes, but strictly speaking England and Great
Britain are not
synonyms.
[...]
> And how about イギリス? We have "England", "Great Britan", the "UK" and "Britain" to chose from. Well, we _can_ write
> イングランド、ウェールズ、スコットランド、北アイルランドを含む立憲君主国 if we really want to be specific, but how we translate
> イギリス in each case depends on topic and target audience, as well.
Unless イギリス is being used in a context that shows it means England alone,
and does not include Scotland, Wales, etc. it should be translated as "Great
Britain" or "the United Kingdom", NOT as England.
As an example, I noticed that in the multi-language blurb that came with
some Scottish Shortbreads we got last Christmas (manufactured in Glasgow), the
Japanese section section stated the country of manufacture was "イギリス".
Simply back-translating that as England (as many Japanese translators tend to
do) is plain wrong.
Cheers
Jim
--
Jim Breen
Honorary Senior Research Fellow
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>On the page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(terminology) there
>is a detailed explanation of this issue (plus much other interesting
>information). Specifically, it seems that while it would be inappropriate
>to mix those two terms in Dutch, common usage in English or German is as i
>learned it. Thus it would seem to me that as a writer or translator one
>should be aware of the matter and make the distinction, as appropriate,
>depending on the topic and one's target audience. For example, if a text
>was about the history, geography or culture of the Netherlands, parts of
>it, or areas adjacent to it, then the distinction you point out would be
>called for even in English, while it might seem unnecessary when talking
>about much more general topics to a non-specialist audience.
Leaving aside the English term 'Dutch' as being faulty (we no longer speak
Diets, but Nederlands) most countries and languages have been changing how
they refer to the Netherlands.
Danish: Nederlandene (old term: Holland)
French: Les Pays-Bas
Italian: Paesi Bassi (old term: Olanda)
Norwegian: Nederland (old term: Holland)
Portuguese: Países Baixos (old term: Holanda)
Spanish: Países Bajos (old term: Holanda)
Swedish: Nederländerna (old term: Holland)
There's a general tendency in most languages to move to a local
representation of nether + lands to accurately refer to the name.
The reason Holland became widespread was due to the multitude of ships
sailing from Rotterdam (Zuid-Holland) and Amsterdam (Noord-Holland) around
the world for trade. Rotterdam's 'De Liefde' in 1600 was the first to land
in Japan.
>A comparable issue is that of using "England": this term is in many places
>and in general parlance synonymous with "Great Britain" or "the UK" (which
>terms themselves are not synonymous), but when, for example, writing about
>soccer or history it would be inappropriate to conflate any of them.
The main difference is that with soccer Scotland has its own national team,
for example, as does Wales.
>And, fnially, how do you deal with these matters in Japanese?
>
>If "the Netherlands" is オランダ (or 和蘭; 阿蘭陀; 和蘭陀 for that matter)
>what term do you use to make reference to the provinces North Holland and
>South Holland?
I am particularly fond of 蘭国 to refer to the Netherlands due to the orchid
reference. ^^
I tend to just say something like ネーデルランド instead of オランダ. Quite
nice to to see the Japanese Wikipedia page also lists ネーデルランド as well
as ホラント since the H of Holland is not a silent one, nor does the name
end in -da.
Noord-Holland, according to Wikipedia, would be: 北ホラント州
Zuid-Holland: 南ホラント州
>And how about イギリス? We have "England", "Great Britan", the "UK" and
>"Britain" to chose from. Well, we _can_ write
>イングランド、ウェールズ、スコットランド、北アイルランドを含む立憲君主国 if
>we really want to be specific, but how we translate イギリス in each case
>depends on topic and target audience, as well.
The United Kingdom at least includes England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern
Ireland. Or even said simpler: Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
To refer to the UK or Great Britain as England is also not being taken
thankfully by people from Wales or Scotland. Northern Ireland has in general
always been a bit of a special case in this, regardless of the name.
So in Japanese, yes, the term イギリス (as well as エゲレス) are historical
remnants from the days the first Europeans arrived in Japan and the nations
these words now represent were not fully formed yet. And as such can also
use a revision, thankfully language is not static. :)
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind..?
Stephen Suloway
> Leaving aside the English term 'Dutch' as being faulty (we no longer speak
> Diets, but Nederlands) most countries and languages have been changing how
> they refer to the Netherlands.
language (or for the people).
It's going to be hard to overcome 'Dutch' in those cases.
And such idiosyncrasies among languages need not be received with
offense.
(I do take your point about the Netherlands rather than Holland; I
never was comfortable with the latter, now I know why.)
+++++
Stephen Suloway
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>I notice you don't suggest a non-'faulty' English word for the
>language (or for the people).
Perhaps flawed would be a better term.
In Dutch (heh) we talk about:
Nederland - The Netherlands
Nederlands - Dutch (both to refer to the language as well as an adjective to
indicate from the Netherlands)
Nederlander - a Dutch person
So perhaps:
ネーデルランド
ネーデルランドス
ネーデルランデル
The Encyclopedia Brittanica refers to Nederlands as Netherlandic (language)
and Netherlandic is used to describe various things pertaining to the
Netherlands, example:
American Association of Netherlandic Studies:
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/aans/
>It's going to be hard to overcome 'Dutch' in those cases.
>And such idiosyncrasies among languages need not be received with
>offense.
Dutch is generally misread as Deutsch and people then think we're Germans.
This has happened quite a lot to me to be honest. I have no problem with the
Germans, some of my fellow countrymen, despite never having been part of any
wars with Germany, resent the comparison though.
Minor correction: Dutch actually derives from Duits, not Diets as I thought.
Shinya Suzuki
> So in Japanese, yes, the term イギリス (as well as エゲレス) are historical
> remnants from the days the first Europeans arrived in Japan and the nations
> these words now represent were not fully formed yet. And as such can also
> use a revision, thankfully language is not static. :)
Whatever its etymology, イギリス (=英国) now means the UK as shown below.
[広辞苑５]
イギリス
ヨーロッパ大陸の北西方、グレートブリテン島とアイルランド島の北東部から成
る，立憲君主国。正称はグレートブリテンおよび北アイルランド連合王国。・・
・英国。
Apparently, England is nowadays called イングランド.
Shinya Suzuki
JimBreen
> In Dutch (heh) we talk about:
>
> Nederland - The Netherlands
> Nederlands - Dutch (both to refer to the language as well as an adjective to
> indicate from the Netherlands)
> Nederlander - a Dutch person
See: http://www.mfa.nl/tok-jp/homepage
> So perhaps:
>
> ネーデルランド
> ネーデルランドス
> ネーデルランデル
(63,000, cf. 835,000 for オランダ).
Cheers
Jim
Matt Stanton
> [...] and please, the country is called the Netherlands,
> Holland only refers to two provinces out of the twelve we have
there at the moment) and my wife bought a pair of ornamental clogs
with "Holland" emblazened on them. I'm looking at them right now. I'm
also looking at a postcard my parents sent me with "Holland" in big
letters and a picture of tulips. Dutch football fans support
"Holland" (see photo below) and the official website of the
Netherlands Board of Tourism is called "holland.com".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Netherlands-Australia_04.JPG
You can hardly expect foreigners to get it right if you can't
yourselves!
Matt
Jim Lockhart
Indeed.
Or maybe we should get find some Japanese who know a little Dutch and
get them to find some Dutch ways of expressing things that they don't
like, and insist that the Dutch harmonize their language with Japanese
preferences.
We can do the same thing with AmE and Dutch. I'd love to watch some
uppity Dutchman--Hollander if you please--try to pronounce local names
from my home state the way we do, no throat-clearing or gurgling sounds allowed
regardless of how many "g"s, "ch"s, and "r"s appear in them.
--Jim Lockhart @ refuses to roll his "r"s or round his vowels for
Spanish names when speaking English, 'cause he knows how ridiculous
pretentious Germans sound when they try so say Eugene Ormandy the
American way in the middle of a German sentence.
Alan Siegrist
> I tend to just say something like ネーデルランド instead of オランダ.
While using that name might be accurate and satisfying in some sense of
asserting your own national identity, which is most certainly your right, it
utterly fails at communication. Unfortunately, almost no one in Japan would
know what country you are from. <g> You could of course go on to explain
that it is the country with all the tulips and windmills and wooden shoes
and the source of 蘭学, and then your Japanese correspondent would probably
exclaim あ、なんだ！「オランダ」じゃないか。
If we are talking Google hits, ネザーランド vastly outhits ネーデルランド.
Oh well...
And further...
> Dutch is generally misread as Deutsch and people then think we're Germans.
I do understand the confusion. The Pennsylvania Dutch here in the US are
actually of German heritage, not Netherlands, so there is considerable
confusion that has a long history. But by now, I think most English speakers
do realize that German and Dutch are different languages and that Dutch is
spoken in Holland, aka the Netherlands. While this situation of having three
completely different English terms for referring to the same small country
is confusing, we have gotten used to it.
Is there a benefit to change? I can see how the Netherlands may eventually
supplant Holland as the name of the country as people become more aware of
the distinction, but you might have a hard time overcoming the image of
Holland as the home of the little Dutch boy with his thumb in the dike.
These cultural perceptions die hard and I am not sure you want to kill them
off.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
Marc Adler
These cultural perceptions die hard and I am not sure you want to kill them
off.
I've heard Jeroen's sentiments voiced by many a Dutchman, but beyond that, barring the Netherlands ("The Netherlands?") suddenly becoming filthy rich, no one's going to pay much attention to what its citizens want to be called. It's just a little country without much political or cultural clout in the world.
Austin, TX
لا شيء إلا الضوء
Jim Lockhart
> I've heard Jeroen's sentiments voiced by many a Dutchman, but beyond that,
> barring the Netherlands ("The Netherlands?") suddenly becoming filthy rich,
> no one's going to pay much attention to what its citizens want to be called.
> It's just a little country without much political or cultural clout in the
> world.
Wow. If I were Dutch, THAT would make me mad. The cultural part aside,
the Dutch--the Nederlanders--have a lot more economic and political
clout than you give them credit for, that's for sure.
Now to get back to cultural.... hmmm.... maybe not much *popular*
cultural clout, but in some less-obvious areas--lifestyle patterns,
welfare systems, inventions--they have a lot on offer. For example,
traffic-calming techniques for urban and suburban residential areas got
their start in Nederlands' "woonerf" concepts. Several Dutch experiments
in wrok-sharing and welfare have become pan-European models.
But the area where Americans could probably learn the most from the
Dutch is in how to reduce crime arising from substance abuse and
prostitution. But that won't happen until pigs sprout wings.
--Jim Lockhart
Akebono Translation Service
Dear Marc,
|
> |
. It's just a little country without much political or cultural clout in the world. |
And you're just a little man without much political or cultural clout in the world. Who gave you the idea that your opinion actually mattered?
Quid pro quo.
Best regards,
Loek van Kooten
--
Akebono Translation Service
Rijnstraat 32
2311 NK Leiden
The Netherlands
Tel: +31-71-5128026
Fax: +31-84-7390618
Algemene voorwaarden: www.akebono.nl/algemeen.doc
Terms and conditions: www.akebono.nl/terms.doc
Chamber of Commerce reg. no.: 28066372
Marceline Therrien
>From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Marc Adler
>Sent: 2008?5?19? 8:49
>To: hon...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: "oranda", "igirisu" and so on...
>
>
>I've heard Jeroen's sentiments voiced by many a Dutchman, but beyond
>that, barring the Netherlands ("The Netherlands?") suddenly becoming
>filthy rich, no one's going to pay much attention to what its citizens
>want to be called. It's just a little country without much political or
>cultural clout in the world.
>
Not to question Mr. Adler's expertise in the field of global economics or
anything, but the Netherlands ($189,293mn) falls behind only the United
Kingdom ($303,232mn), Japan ($210,996mn), Germany ($202,581mn) in terms of
its ownership of US assets. Personally, I would consider that worth "paying
attention to."
Marceline Therrien
J2E Business Translations
San Francisco, California, USA
Marc Adler
And you're just a little man without much political or cultural clout in the world. Who gave you the idea that your opinion actually mattered?
Define "matter" and we might have a discussion, but either way, you seem unusually touchy for a Dutchman. Most Dutch people I've known have voiced the exact regret I just posted, and seemed a bit more circumspect about political reality than I guess other Dutch people are. It's a sad fact, because Holland is probably one of the coolest places on earth (if it had been easier to get work visas for American freelance J>E translators ten years ago, I'd probably be living there now), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fact. Most Americans don't know the difference between Holland/Belgium/Germany/Europe/Asia/Venus, and couldn't care less. If you want a substantial part of the Anglophone world to start paying attention to things like the difference between "Dutch," "Holland," and "the Netherlands," you're going to need a bit more than traffic circles and welfare models.
--
Marc Adler
Not to question Mr. Adler's expertise in the field of global economics or
anything, but the Netherlands ($189,293mn) falls behind only the United
Kingdom ($303,232mn), Japan ($210,996mn), Germany ($202,581mn) in terms of
its ownership of US assets. Personally, I would consider that worth "paying
attention to."
Oh, okay, well then I'll be waiting for the flood of Dutch movies at my local cineplex, the invasion of Dutch bands on the charts, the avalanche of books translated from Dutch, and the mad panic to learn Dutch among the US populace.
I mean, not to question your expertise in ... whatever, but that's what you're predicting, right? I said filthy rich, and you threw out some numbers that don't indicate that Holland's a filthy rich country--rich, maybe, but not filthy rich, like, say, the US, whose GDP is three times the size of our closest competitor, Japan.
And let's look at Japan's cultural influence in the States--have you seen the size of the manga section in your local major-chain bookstore? Have you seen the popularity of anime? If Japanese were easier to learn, there'd be even more people studying it in US colleges.
That's what I'm talking about. If the Dutch want everyone to start calling them Netherlanders, etc., it's going to take that kind of cultural clout. 16th largest GDP (after Mexico!) isn't going to cut it.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but Americans, especially, are pretty stubborn when it comes to their ignorance of things non-American (cf. non-adoption of metric system in US).
--
Akebono Translation Service
Dear Marc,
|
> |
you seem unusually touchy for a Dutchman. |
Who said I'm touchy? I'm using exactly the same words. Why does that make me touchy? Does it feel different when your words are applied to you instead of me? Well, that shows something, doesn't it?
|
> |
Most Dutch people I've known have voiced the exact regret I just posted, and seemed a bit more circumspect about political reality than I guess other Dutch people are. It's a sad fact, |
It's interesting how this regret you mentioned suddenly turns into a *fact* a few words later. How do you do that? Can you teach me?
|
> |
Most Americans don't know the difference between Holland/Belgium/Germany/Europe/Asia/Venus |
Is that because there is no difference, or because they are too stupid to learn that there is also life outside Texas? To be honest, this says more about education systems than anything else.
|
> |
, and couldn't care less. |
...not to mention attitude.
|
> |
If you want a substantial part of the Anglophone world to start paying attention to things like the difference between "Dutch," "Holland," and "the Netherlands," you're going to need a bit more than traffic circles and welfare models. |
Fortunately I'm smart enough to realize that you belong to a small minority and that most Americans are actually really cool people who love to exchange knowledge (two-way traffic) instead of imposing their arrogant views upon others in this world (one-way traffic).
Marceline Therrien
>From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Marc Adler
>Sent: 2008?5?19? 9:50
>To: hon...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: "oranda", "igirisu" and so on...
>
>I mean, not to question your expertise in ... whatever, but that's what
>you're predicting, right? I said filthy rich, and you threw out some
>numbers that don't indicate that Holland's a filthy rich country--rich,
>maybe, but not filthy rich, like, say, the US, whose GDP is three times
>the size of our closest competitor, Japan.
I am not predicting anything. But when you make a comment that indicates
that you think that the Netherlands is an economically insignificant
country, you are demonstrating your ignorance. Judged by a number of
measures, the Netherlands is indeed "filthy rich." For example the
Netherlands ranks number 9 in terms of GNI (behind the US at 7) and is ahead
of the UK, Japan, Germany, France, Canada, and Australia, among others.
Akebono Translation Service
Dear Marc,
|
> |
Oh, okay, well then I'll be waiting for the flood of Dutch movies at my local cineplex, the invasion of Dutch bands on the charts, the avalanche of books translated from Dutch, and the mad panic to learn Dutch among the US populace. |
If Unilever or Shell did not exist, half of your fridge would be empty and you wouldn't be able to drive your car. I'd rather have food and gasoline than movies, to be honest.
|
> |
I mean, not to question your expertise in ... whatever, but that's what you're predicting, right? I said filthy rich, and you threw out some numbers that don't indicate that Holland's a filthy rich country--rich, maybe, but not filthy rich, like, say, the US, whose GDP is three times the size of our closest competitor, Japan. |
But that's easy, as the United *States* isn't even a country. If the US is a country, then so is the EU and surprise surprise... the EU's GDP is much bigger than that of the US!
Sheesh, what is this, a pissing contest? How proud are you on the fact that it says USA in your passport? What influence did you exert on that fact before you were born? Let me guess... zero? So why be so proud on that? Because you accomplished nothing else in your life?
|
> |
That's what I'm talking about. If the Dutch want everyone to start calling them Netherlanders, etc., it's going to take that kind of cultural clout. 16th largest GDP (after Mexico!) isn't going to cut it. |
I agree that chances are slim that people will ever call us Netherlanders (and personally I don't care as I'm from South-*Holland* anyway), but the exclamation mark behind Mexico shows just what an arrogant snob you really are.
|
> |
I'd love to be proven wrong, but Americans, especially, are pretty stubborn when it comes to their ignorance of things non-American (cf. non-adoption of metric system in US). |
You mean Americans like you. I'm glad you never decided to live here. I couldn't have stood the smell.
Kyle Wright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsPv07PTor8
--
Kyle Wright (Marysville, Ohio)
Marc Adler
Sheesh, what is this, a pissing contest?
You're the one who's turning it into one. I just said that if the Dutch want to change the way English speakers call them, they're going to have to figure much more prominently in the world's imagination.
If you disagree with that, well, there's nothing I can do about it.
How proud are you on the fact that it says USA in your passport? What influence did you exert on that fact before you were born? Let me guess... zero? So why be so proud on that? Because you accomplished nothing else in your life?
Marc Adler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_we've_got_here_is_failure_to_communicate
I think you're right...
Akebono Translation Service
Dear Marc,
|
> |
You're the one who's turning it into one. I just said that if the Dutch want to change the way English speakers call them, they're going to have to figure much more prominently in the world's imagination. |
No, you said:
It's just a little country without much political or cultural clout in the world.
|
> |
I have no idea what you're going on about, but dude, seriously--calm down. Reality is reality. If I had my way, Holland would be the richest country in the world, and would be making all the movies everyone the world over watches. That's not the way it is, and you seem pretty pissed off about it. Don't take it out on me, though. |
I couldn't care less about which movies people watch. And I think it was you, not me, who started comparing GDP and stuff.
I don't expect the world to call us Netherlanders either. Not because we don't exert enough influence, but simply because people will call things the way they want anyway - and that's fine with me.
I mean, the US exerts more influence in this world than any other country and people still call you yanks (which comes, interestingly, from the Dutch names Jan-Kees).
I don't, by the way.
Marc Adler
It's just a little country without much political or cultural clout in the world.
I couldn't care less about which movies people watch. And I think it was you, not me, who started comparing GDP and stuff.
I don't expect the world to call us Netherlanders either. Not because we don't exert enough influence, but simply because people will call things the way they want anyway - and that's fine with me.
I mean, the US exerts more influence in this world than any other country and people still call you yanks (which comes, interestingly, from the Dutch names Jan-Kees).
Pamela Ikegami
Anyone who feels the need to continue the "discussion", please take it
off list.
Pam Ikegami, one of four moderators
sls
> I think we've all heard more than enough of this.
> Anyone who feels the need to continue the "discussion", please take it
> off list.
And let me say "thank you" to all who have contributed to my education by way of this discussion. m(_ _)m
Don Graham
----- Original Message -----From: Marc AdlerSent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:53 AMSubject: Re: "oranda", "igirisu" and so on...
Don Graham
Sorry I didn't see your message before I "cracked awf."
Cheers,
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pamela Ikegami" <p.ik...@gmail.com>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: "oranda", "igirisu" and so on...
>
Pamela Ikegami
Het is ok.
(how's my Dutch? ;) )
Pam Ikegami, a moderator but not a speaker of Dutch.
Marc Adler
I am of those many non-Americans who shares and is profounded moved by the fundamental American credo of universal human dignity, and endorses its application
Jim Lockhart
"Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am of those many non-Americans who shares and is profounded moved by
> > the fundamental American credo of universal human dignity, and endorses its
> > application
>
> What I don't understand is why a realistic evaluation of the current state
> of the world is seen as some kind of slight against the Dutch nation. While
> no expert, I'm pretty sure I know more about the country than most educated
> Americans (and Europeans) (en ongeveer tien jaar geleden, kon ik wat
> Nederlands spreken--it's been so long I'm not even sure if that's right or
> not), and there's no one who would more like to see the Dutch model adopted
> throughout the world.
Marc,
I think the operative words in one of your posts were "they're going to have to
figure much more prominently *in the world's imagination*" (emphasis
mine).
I realize that your original wording was not meant to be disparaging,
just stating a fact about the world that you actually find lamentable;
but it came across as a slight against the Dutch.
In any case, I generally sympathize with your sentiments, but don't
necessarily agree that the Dutch don't have a lot of influence in the
world. The point, I think, that I, Marceline and several others were
trying to make is that they *do* have a lot of influence in the world,
it's just not as obvious as that of countries that spawn a lot of
cultural icons. And in fact, in my view anyway, most Dutch contributions
to the world are more beneficial and impactful in a universal manner
than such obvious "cultural" contributions. That little fleck of land at
the northwest corner of the continent may get little credit and be
little appreciated, but it most certainly is not insignificant.
tot siens,
--Jim Lockhart
Chris Poole
Still, I recently learned that "Great Britain" is simply the name of the
island on which Scotland, England and Wales are located - nothing to do with
any nation states. I thought that was interesting.
Chris
Tom Donahue
> And in fact, in my view anyway, most Dutch contributions
> to the world are more beneficial and impactful in a universal manner...
In two of the fields that I'm interested in (architecture and typography)
the Dutch loom large in the landscape of Europe. On one of those
significance maps they would be bigger than France and Germany
combined. Throw in Spain and Switzerland too.
(Is there some way to steer this thread back to translation?
The Antwerp Biblia Polyglotta?)
--
Tom Donahue
Steve Venti
> Is there some way to steer this thread back to translation?
I suggest starting a new one with a different subject line. That way I
won't have to grimace at this one anymore.
Honestly, folks, Pam and Ed have both requested that this thread be
abandoned or taken off list, so yoroshiku onegai shimasu yo.
--
Steve Venti, one of three list owners
And the sad truth is nothing but a cold, hard fact: I'm riding the
Blue Train over the miles left to cover, a ghost in a hurry to fade.
--Jennifer Kimball & Tom Kimmel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Akebono Translation Service
> Het is ok.
> (how's my Dutch? ;) )
It's not even wrong ;-)
Officially it's:
Het is oké.
More natural is:
Het is goed.
(It's good.)
Mika Jarmusz
> Nederland - The Netherlands
> Nederlands - Dutch (both to refer to the language as well as an adjective to
> indicate from the Netherlands)
> Nederlander - a Dutch person
> ネーデルランド
> ネーデルランドス
> ネーデルランデル
せっかくですので、上の日本語を直してみましょう。
「オランダ」と言う国名の歴史的な価値はいうまでもありませんが
ネーデルラントの人達が「オランダはおかしい」
といわれているのなら、
ネーデルラント （国をさすとき）
ネーデルラント語・ネーデルラントの
ネーデルラント人
．．．でしょうか。
昔むかしの交易国が
日本のことを知らずに「薩摩」とでも呼び習わしたからといって
そのまま薩摩人・薩摩国で定着してしまったら、
やはり違和感がありますよね。
--
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
--
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
inJapanese.us
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
-On [20080520 09:03], Mika Jarmusz (mik...@gmail.com) wrote:
>ネーデルラント （国をさすとき）
>ネーデルラント語・ネーデルラントの
>ネーデルラント人
>．．．でしょうか。
はい、そうです。ごめんなさい。 I was stuck in literal translating mode. You
are, of course, absolutely right.
I didn't see the remainder of the thread until now and want to apologize
that it spawned a part that was not directly aimed at translation.
Nonetheless I am quite appreciative at some of praise my little country got
(and I learnt some new statistical evidence).
And most of all: quite surprised at some of the (near-) flawless Dutch of
you guys. :|
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind..?