Audacity of hope
Doreen Simmons
Any ideas for putting this coinage into reasonable Japanese?
We can't come up with anything that sounds like a catchphrase (or battlecry).
The basic meaning is clearly hoping beyond what is reasonable.
TIA,
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Michael Hendry
Subject: Audacity of hope
> Any ideas for putting this coinage into reasonable Japanese?
I think "あえて" could work on one level so how about "あえての希望"?
Michael Hendry, in Newcastle Australia
Richard Thieme
合衆国再生―大いなる希望を抱いて
appears to be what Amazon uses
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%90%88%E8%A1%86%E5%9B%BD%E5%86%8D%E7%94%9F%E2%80%95%E5%A4%A7%E3%81%84%E3%81%AA%E3%82%8B%E5%B8%8C%E6%9C%9B%E3%82%92%E6%8A%B1%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6-%E3%83%90%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%83%90%E3%83%9E/dp/447800353X
HTH
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : ""Doreen Simmons"" <JZ8D...@asahi-net.or.jp>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年3月4日 18:54
件名 : Audacity of hope
Doreen Simmons
Doreen Simmons
That should hold my immediate boss.
Doreen
On 2009/03/04, at 19:09, Richard Thieme wrote:
>
>
>
> 合衆国再生―大いなる希望を抱いて
>
> appears to be what Amazon uses
>
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/
> %E5%90%88%E8%A1%86%E5%9B%BD%E5%86%8D%E7%94%9F%E2%80%95%E5%A4%A7%E3%81%8
> 4%E3%81%AA%E3%82%8B%E5%B8%8C%E6%9C%9B%E3%82%92%E6%8A%B1%E3%81%84%E3%81%
> A6-%E3%83%90%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%83%90%E3%83%9E/dp/
> 447800353X
>
> HTH
>
> Richard Thieme
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Marc Adler
<JZ8D...@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote:
> Any ideas for putting this coinage into reasonable Japanese?
諦めぬ希望 / 諦めを知らぬ希望
めげない希望
乗り越える希望
大胆にも、希望 (I particularly like this one)
希望をさえ持ってはいけない状況の中でそれでも希望を持つという希望 (might be a tad long)
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Laurie Berman
Sorry, I'm getting silly . . .
mt_scratch
参考例：
"/An Officer and a Gentleman/" ⇒ 「愛と青春の旅だち」
桜内 実
M. Sakurauchi
Joji Matsuo
う名のオーデーサティ。:p
joji matsuo
William Taylor
> Eventually, someone is bound to katakanize this into something like 希望とい
> う名のオーデーサティ。:p
オーデーサティgot zero google hits today, but I fear its only a matter of
time.
Regards,
William Taylor
Marc Adler
<william...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don’t be giving anyone any wise ideas Joji!
> オーデーサティgot zero google hits today, but I fear its only a matter of
> time.
You guys say "ah-day-city"? I've always said "ah-dass-it-y" (rhymes
with "ah, dance with me"). Although I do say "ah-day-shus" for
audacious.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Roland Hechtenberg
> オーデーサティgot zero google hits today, but I fear its only a matter of
> time.
Try オーダシティ.
オーダシティ の検索結果 約 796,000 件
Have fun,
Roland
Nora Stevens Heath
> You guys say "ah-day-city"? I've always said "ah-dass-it-y" (rhymes
> with "ah, dance with me"). Although I do say "ah-day-shus" for
> audacious.
I say, and I've only heard, "aw-DASS-it-y", but never "ah-DAY-city".
The katakana (for an audio app of the same name) seems to back this up:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audacity (オーダシティ)
Nora
--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/
Joji Matsuo
> You guys say "ah-day-city"? I've always said "ah-dass-it-y" (rhymes
> with "ah, dance with me"). Although I do say "ah-day-shus" for
> audacious.
No, I say it like you, but I was playing with オーデシャス and realized the
original word was audacity so I changed the last part to サティ. An
audacious approach to transliterating into Japanese.
Joji Matsuo
GOODMAN
"Audacity of hope" reminds me of "Dr Clark's 'Boys Be Ambitious'." (青年よ大志を抱け)
AMAZON の "合衆国再生―大いなる希望を抱いて" は、名訳だと思う。
いずれも原文よりも日本語訳のほうが上品に感じられる。
Bye, bob-out
dav...@gol.com
It only gets 2.620 it you put quotes around it. I suspect that St. Google
breaks up katakana strings during matching.
David J. Littleboy
Fred Uleman
奇跡を信じる勇気
for "audacity of hope"
--
Fred Uleman
Mika Jarmusz
「希望の見出せないような困難な状況で、あえて希望を持つ」という本来の意味にもとれますが、その一方で「希望など無用だが、あえて持ってみる」という、原文とは全く異なる解釈も許すため、訳としてはふさわしくないと思います。
>AMAZON の "合衆国再生―大いなる希望を抱いて" は、名訳だと思う。
>いずれも原文よりも日本語訳のほうが上品に感じられる。
Laurie Berman
On Mar 5, 2009, at 10:23 AM, Mika Jarmusz wrote:
> >AMAZON の "合衆国再生―大いなる希望を抱いて" は、名訳だと思う。
> >いずれも原文よりも日本語訳のほうが上品に感じられる。
>
> どちらが上品かを比べることはできませんが、原文の意を訳したすばらしい
> 訳ですね。
I agree. It illustrates the audacity of good translation (i.e., the
audacity not to get hung up on the word audacity).
Laurie Berman
Dwight Van Winkle
http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_bks&q=ISBN+978-750-368-690-0+&fq=dt%3Abks
无畏的希望
无畏 [wúwèi]
1. fearless; dauntless
Other translations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Audacity_of_Hope#Versions_and_translations
President Obama explained what he meant in 2004: "Do we participate in
a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope?" . . . I'"m not
talking about blind optimism here" . . . "Hope in the face of
difficulty. Hope in the face of uncertainty. The audacity of hope."
I wonder if there is a catchy way to capture the idea of having the
":audacity" to stop being cynical and start being hopeful.
I think the idea of transcending the cynicism of Washington DC was
central to Obama's meaning. 大いなる希望を抱いて doesn't do that. That's
doesn't mean it's not the best translation.
On Mar 5, 7:27 am, Laurie Berman <bermagu...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2009, at 10:23 AM, Mika Jarmusz wrote:
>
GOODMAN
audacity of hope
これらの単語は互いに、木に竹を接ぐ感じですが、native English speakerにはなんの違和感もないものでしょうか?
すなわち、audacity には、荒々しさ、激しさというものが感じられ、 hope とかdream とか言うものとはうまく matching
しないよう(unreasonable)に思うのですが?
『大いなる希望を抱いて』は日本語自体としては何ら違和感はありません。(reasonable)が、これを逆に英文に直すとしても、私には
『audacity』という言葉は到底出てきません。
翻訳する場合、原文がいかに不合理でも、不合理をそのまま忠実に訳出する場合を除いて、(正しいか否かではなく)表現は、合理的なものとする必要があると思います。
Dale Ponte
> President Obama explained what he meant in 2004: "Do we participate in
> a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope?" . . . I'"m not
> talking about blind optimism here" . . . "Hope in the face of
> difficulty. Hope in the face of uncertainty. The audacity of hope."
"audacity" are:
fear-dismissing, not caring to be intimidated, a faith/pride in the
'power' of (righteous) hope, a ready-and-willingness to _act on_ hope,
ready and willing to buck the system/to confront, a certain innocence/
purity, straightforward hope, fighting spirit, youthfulness(?) .....
-- even imagination, as the unlikely pairing of audacity and hope
implicates.
The jolting _reminder_ or wake-up call that hope worth the name can
and must (things being as they are) _be_ audacious.
~
Dale
who regards Obama affectionately as "chivalrous knight"
JimBreen
> >Try オーダシティ.
>
> >オーダシティ の検索結果 約 796,000 件
>
> It only gets 2.620 it you put quotes around it. I suspect that St. Google
> breaks up katakana strings during matching.
the
text in pages and build indices of the constituent "words". Something
like 更生保護 will be indexed as 更生 and 保護. Putting quotes around
it in a search tells Google et al. that you only want pages where the
the two parts are adjacent.
A couple of years ago you could actually see this by looking at the
HTML of the search results page, where it would appear as:
<b>更生</b><b>保護</b>, but that "feature" has gone now.
I bet they segment オーダシティ as オーダ + シティ.
Jim
Mika Jarmusz
http://ext.dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/ej/audacity+of+hope/m0u/audacity/
「大胆な希望」も「勇敢なる希望」も、読み手を引き込むどころか、いかにも希望というモノが「大胆・勇敢にふるまっている」ようで、どこかコッケイに見えはしませんか。
Richard Thieme
I here what you are saying and agree with you that I hear the 遠慮なし or 慎みもなし feeling of the original English, but don't see how to get that into
Japanese.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年3月6日 15:52
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope
William Sakovich
慎みもなし feeling of the original English, but don't see how to get that
into
Isn't it about time to conclude that the original expression may sound good,
but the more you think about it, realize that it's essentially meaningless?
[[ 私の個人的な印象ですが、このaudacity とhope の取り合わせの意外性に強靭な
メッセージが秘められているのではないでしょうか。]]
That's not my impression. The impression I get is that the expression was
coined to give impression you speak of without conveying any real or serious
meaning.
Maybe the reason no one can come up with something acceptable is not because
of the originality or subtlety of the concept, but because there's no there
there to begin with?
Let's not forget it was created by Jeremiah Wright, who is not noted for his
brilliant insights.
- BS
Mika Jarmusz
＞Let's not forget it was created by Jeremiah Wright, who is not noted for his
brilliant insights.
Marc Adler
> Isn't it about time to conclude that the original expression may sound good,
> but the more you think about it, realize that it's essentially meaningless?
The meaning is very clear. To suppress a people, you remove the
possibility of hope. That was a central psychological component of
Soviet oppression. Whenever people started having hope, the reaction
had to be so brutal as to crush not only the expression of that hope,
but the hope itself that things might change. The Soviet reactions in
Hungary in 1956 and Prague in 1968 are examples of this. This is true
not only of the Soviets, of course. Slavery is another similar
situation. Agree with him or not, this is what Wright had in
mind--that blacks are oppressed in the same way, that they are denied
even the possibility of hope, which is why the very act of having hope
becomes audacious. Hoping for a better life when even hope itself is
presented as futile: that's the audacity of hope.
I tried to communicate this is one of my roundly ignored suggestions
(the long one). I still think they're better than anything else anyone
has come up with. (So there! Nyaah-nyaah!)
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Laurie Berman
On Mar 6, 2009, at 4:27 AM, William Sakovich wrote:
> Maybe the reason no one can come up with something acceptable is
> not because
> of the originality or subtlety of the concept, but because there's
> no there
> there to begin with?
I sort of agree, but not completely. It's an old idea--the courage to
hope--with a new nuance. However, I don't think audacity implies
anything about how Obama intends to change Washington. I think it
really just suggests the courage to shoot for something beyond that
which people around you deem realistic or even appropriate
(especially if you are an African American).
But what makes the title great is that in addition to that slightly
provocative nuance it has a really great rhythm and ring, like a good
melody, which makes it memorable. Catch-phrases and titles are all
about 響き, which is why in many cases it's the editor that
chooses them, not the author. In a journal like Japan Echo, that
features translations from the Japanese media, most of the titles and
subheads are provided by the NES editors on the basis of the content,
not on the basis of the existing titles and subheads. So, while I
understand the desire to get every iota of nuance into the Japanese
translation, I don't think that's a realistic approach to title
translation.
Laurie Berman
Laurie Berman
On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Marc Adler wrote:
> Agree with him or not, this is what Wright had in
> mind--that blacks are oppressed in the same way, that they are denied
> even the possibility of hope, which is why the very act of having hope
> becomes audacious. Hoping for a better life when even hope itself is
> presented as futile: that's the audacity of hope.
Yes, that's the origin of the phrase. But I don't think Obama's focus
is on oppression when he uses it. That's where he and Wright differ.
Laurie Berman
Marc Adler
> Yes, that's the origin of the phrase. But I don't think Obama's focus
> is on oppression when he uses it. That's where he and Wright differ.
Well, that's sort of what he means, although he generalizes it a bit.
At least, that's the impression I get judging from the quote in the
Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Audacity_of_Hope
"No, I'm talking about something more substantial. It's the hope of
slaves sitting around a fire singing freedom songs; the hope of
immigrants setting out for distant shores; the hope of a young naval
lieutenant bravely patrolling the Mekong Delta; the hope of a
millworker's son who dares to defy the odds; the hope of a skinny kid
with a funny name who believes that America has a place for him, too.
Hope in the face of difficulty. Hope in the face of uncertainty. The
audacity of hope!"
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
David Farnsworth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: Audacity of hope
the hope of a skinny kid
> with a funny name who believes that America has a place for him, too.
In other words, its a reference to HIMSELF becoming president...
How utterly narcissistic.
But we already knew that... (and now that he's here, we have to hope that he
will actually do something useful)
David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224
Marceline Therrien
>From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On
>Behalf Of David Farnsworth
>Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:12 AM
>To: hon...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: Audacity of hope
>
>
>
>How utterly narcissistic.
>
>But we already knew that... (and now that he's here, we have to hope
>that he
>will actually do something useful)
>
>David Farnsworth
>Tigard OR 97224
Is it not possible for you to find some other more appropriate forum to vent
your spleen?
Marceline Therrien
J2E Business Translations
San Francisco, California, USA
*Do not forward or repost this message without the author's permission*
Mark Spahn
> But what makes the title great is that in addition to that slightly
> provocative nuance it has a really great rhythm and ring, like a good
> melody, which makes it memorable. Catch-phrases and titles are all
> Laurie Berman
>
Speaking of 響き, it is better if your catch-phrase ends
with a stressed syllable rather than an unstressed syllable.
Thus "the auDACity of HOPE" has a better ring to it than
"the HOPE of auDACity". In prosody, this is the distinction
between masculine rhyme (enjoy/destroy) versus
feminine rhyme (laziness/haziness).
A team of tiger magicians called "ROY and SIEGfried"
would have a less snappier name than "SIEGfried and ROY",
which has the rhythm of the first four notes of
Beethoven's Fifth Symphony: da-da-da-DAH!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s-snS4a3i8
In decades past, the comedians George Burns and
Gracie Allen performed on radio and TV under the name
"BURNS and ALlen"; maybe they would be even more
famous had they called themselves "Allen and BURNS".
http://youlist.jp/v/NW6GWEi3g3U
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
P.S. By this theory, the compilers of Kanji Dictionary
should have been listed in the order "HadaMITzky and SPAHN",
in a rhythmic line of anapestic dimeter.
Marc Adler
> In other words, its a reference to HIMSELF becoming president...
>
> How utterly narcissistic.
How is that narcissistic? He was talking about the hope that someone
like himself could become president. It's only narcissism when you
can't stop talking about yourself, or you think everything is about
you.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Steven P. Venti
This thread is growing increasingly off topic for this forum. Could we
either keep the conversation oriented to translation issues or take it
elsewhere, please?
TIA
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti, one of three list owners
spv...@bhk-limited.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
William Sakovich
>Is it not possible for you to find some other more appropriate forum to vent
>your spleen?
I'm afraid you've let pass without criticism too many other comments
from the other well-known spleen venters around here for this to have
much effect now.
- BS
Jerome Conway
> I'm afraid you've let pass without criticism too many other comments
> from the other well-known spleen venters around here for this to have
> much effect now.
But Steve Venti has since suggested that this be ventilated elsewhere.
Jerome Conway
Mika Jarmusz
>I tried to communicate this is one of my roundly ignored suggestions
(the long one).
希望をさえ持ってはいけない状況の中でそれでも希望を持つという希望 (might be a tad long)
----
ん、ちょっと、tadに。
If the word HOPE isn't such a buzzword, and if we don't have to refer back to it, then I like 奇跡を信じる勇気 quite well.
By the way, the character 豪 didn't seem right for No Drama Obama, but the meaning of 豪胆 may not be so off afterall; I like it better as 剛胆. 希望の剛胆さ still isn't right, though.
Audacity of Hope
× めげない希望
× 乗り越える希望
これは日本語としてはおかしくはないですが、テレビのコマーシャルっぽい。希望って、大胆に手に入れるものなのかな、と。
たとえば、不屈の希望、などはいかがでしょうか。
Marc Adler
> △ 大胆にも、希望
> これは日本語としてはおかしくはないですが、テレビのコマーシャルっぽい。希望って、大胆に手に入れるものなのかな、と。
Actually, that's probably where I got the idea. Although, your
interpretation is spot on, as the Brits say. It is something you need
audacity to get.
> たとえば、不屈の希望、などはいかがでしょうか。
This sounds like the title of a ドラマ. :-) Although, this is sort of the
opposite, because you're in a situation where there is no hope, and
you're going to hope anyway, dammit. If it's 不屈, then where does
audacity come in?
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Mika Jarmusz
This sounds like the title of a ドラマ. :-)
>Although, this is sort of the
opposite, because you're in a situation where there is no hope, and
you're going to hope anyway, dammit.
A situation where there is no hope? Where does it say that?
>If it's 不屈, then where does audacity come in?
Mika Jarmusz
Marc Adler
> A situation where there is no hope? Where does it say that?
I explained it in another email. (The one about Soviet oppression.)
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
GOODMAN
Audacity of hope は、ストレートに日本語にするのは難しいです。どうも納まりが悪くなります。
しかしながら、これを "audacious **** of hopes" などと抽象観念を具象化すれば、ともかくaudacity
を反映させた訳出ができるかなと、いろいろ面白半分に試してみました。(でも、公開するには、ちょっと面白すぎて憚れるのでやめておきます。)
あるいは、audacity は除外して、Obama氏の言わんとするhope をrepresent できるようなものに置き換える以外方法がないのかなと思います。
Mika Jarmusz
>I explained it in another email. (The one about Soviet oppression.)
Marc Adler
> Ah. What I meant was where does 不屈 say anything about such a situation.
> Sorry about that.
>
> 「屈さない」 takes the inner quality of audacity. 屈さない can also be achieved with
> mindless stubbornness.
>
> I can only hope that the word 不屈 actually carries that nuance of conviction,
> like I think it does.
I see. What I meant was that you're going from a situation where your
希望 has for all intents and purposes 屈してしまった to one where you
re-embrace hope.
I think the problem is that "the audacity of hope" here actually means
"the audacity of hoping" or "the audacity of the act of hoping." The
audacity is in the people who hope, and not in the hope itself.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Dale Ponte
here's what I wonder:
Obama sees that "hope" has long been a yawning emblem for all sorts of
inertia, gobs of it. It is in fact a critique that applies
universally, which makes this word of his battle-cry accessible to
translation.
This critique is discreetly the point of departure for his project of
empowering hopers, the unwitting captives of hope, anew by telling
them (believing into them) that what they can Now possess -- by seeing
themselves reflected in the new cast he gives to the emblem -- is
liberated, kinetic, rightful audacity. Obama's audacity turns the
unwitting _inertia of hope_ upon its ear, frees it up.
The Japanese will lose out if "audacity" gets rendered negatively,
sluggishly, reductively. It should be crisp, striking, bold, spirited,
expansive, et cetera. Brio! With maybe even a conceivable hint of
grassroots energy, should it come to choosing one shade over
another :-\
I chime in (my whole row!) with Laurie and Mark S. about 響き/prosody.
We can't analyze value-laden language, particularly such momentous
rhetoric as this, without thoroughly taking into consideration,
_feeling_ and acknowledging, its audible body. Prosody is the very
life-breath and sea-lap of language.
FWIW, to my ear the English prosody expresses a run-up to a leaping
off with Hope. Or like a run-up to a pole-jump ;-) Note the chesty
breath expulsion on the final beat, blowing out the whole expression.
I also seem to hear an effervescence in "the audacity of," that floats
over the heaviness of "hope". I certainly don't suppose that the
Japanese should try replicate the English prosody, but perhaps it
could embody a kindred feeling somehow.
In place of offering any material for a solution, I can only suggest
that ideally the Japanese, as well, would spring new energy from
tired, everyday old hope, animate it afresh, re-activate it, promise
to free it up .... somehow.
What are the features, associations and so forth, specifically of
language, of Obama's aura within Japan?
I wonder what is the purpose, nay, destiny of Doreen's translation
(channeling;). Though she has already TIA-ed, don't we hope that she
lets us know what she goes with?
~
Dale
*More fully:
"The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the Eyes of others
only a Green thing which stands in the way. Some see Nature all
Ridicule and Deformity, and by these I shall not regulate my
proportions; and some scarce see Nature at all. But to the Eyes of a
Man of Imagination, Nature is Imagination itself. As a Man is, so he
sees."
-William Blake, Letter to Trusler, Aug. 23, 1799.
(Goodman'さん, trust your genius, it develops through exposure :))
Mika Jarmusz
>I think the problem is that "the audacity of hope" here actually means
>"the audacity of hoping" or "the audacity of the act of hoping." The
audacity is in the people who hope, and not in the hope itself.
Yes, I mentioned that problem earlier on other examples, and I still am aware of it. That's why I wrote it is a 日本語の問題. For the translation of hope, I would go with the word 希望, as it is commonly used, just like "hope."
× 大胆な希望 ×大胆の希望 （problem Marc mentioned）
× 勇敢なる希望 ×勇敢の希望
以下の類語を見比べてみると「人間」の修飾語(大胆・剛胆・果敢など)は「希望」との取り合わせに関しては、ほぼ全滅のようです。
不屈の類語
http://thesaurus.weblio.jp/content/%E4%B8%8D%E5%B1%88
大胆の類語
http://thesaurus.weblio.jp/content/%E5%A4%A7%E8%83%86
気丈の類語
http://thesaurus.weblio.jp/content/%E6%B0%97%E4%B8%88
一方「精神・根性・闘志・魂」などに使う事ができる「不屈」は「希望」との取り合わせも可能なようです。
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>I sort of agree, but not completely. It's an old idea--the courage to
>hope--with a new nuance.
The first thing that sprung to mind when I read this was: "hope springs
eternal".
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust...
Marc Adler
<asm...@in-nomine.org> wrote:
> The first thing that sprung to mind when I read this was: "hope springs
> eternal".
But again, that's the opposite of what the audacity of hope means.
"Hope against hope" might be closer.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Richard Thieme
Regards,
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Mika Jarmusz" <mik...@gmail.com>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年3月8日 16:56
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Richard Thieme" <rdth...@gol.com>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年3月8日 21:44
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope
>
> しぶとい?
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Thieme
>
I just occurred to be that maybe a different construction is needed, like には が ある
希望にはしぶとさは有る or maybe 御座る
does that get the kind of active feel in the "audacity" into the Japanese?
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Fred Uleman
FWIW, I note that this desire to believe (and to say it is okay to believe) is reflected in the "yes, we can" slogan.
--
Fred Uleman
Mika Jarmusz
「しぶとい」ももっぱら人間の性質をあらわす形容詞ですから。
Richard Thieme
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope (different grammar construction)
> いや残念ながら、希望にしぶとさなど、あるはずないです。
> 「しぶとい」ももっぱら人間の性質をあらわす形容詞ですから。
>
>
> --
Yes but I don't think hope has audacity either. Audacity is also a quality
of a human, although you can talk about the audacity of someone's actions.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Marc Adler
> いや残念ながら、希望にしぶとさなど、あるはずないです。
> 「しぶとい」ももっぱら人間の性質をあらわす形容詞ですから。
Maybe the word 希望 is wrong. Or maybe this is just one of those
situations where you have to just explain it.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
GOODMAN
http://preview.tinyurl.com/bgpmv9
に
Audacious: Represents a dream that's beyond what you think is
possible. It represents the mountaintop your company is striving to
reach.
と、定義してあり
なんと、一番最初に感じた、クラーク博士の『少年よ大志を抱け』(Boys, Be Ambitious)
と同じではないかとの結論に達しました。
結局、Audacity of hope は、『米国民よ、大志をいだけ』ということになるのでしょうか。
GOODMAN
Audacity は、至高を希求する精神とでも定義できるでしょうか?
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "GOODMAN" <otto....@gmail.com>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年3月9日 0:57
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope (different grammar construction)
I in fact was thinking of something along these lines, although I am still
not convinced.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Dale Ponte
sorta like 希望（と/は）、その~~さ（よ）.
逞しい・さ?？
「逞しい希望」?？
「希望が逞しく・い」
Goodman-さん airs the grand old graph 「志」. It's one that I also have
been wondering about. On the score that it speaks of _initiative_ --
personal, true, admirable, potentially valorous. But what about its
background of patriotism :-\ It just seems to wave somewhat in the
right direction... Might work to (somehow) give it a decently
_rebellious_ quality/substance, apt to rise up and startle. The Yin of
hope confronted with the Yang of audacity: zappo! (Though perhaps in
just a popular-fantasy sense, ehy ;-) )
Wright's original phrase was "audacity _to_ hope." Obama, by switching
it to "_of_ hope," seems intent on inviting the common hope to make
the shift from passively hoping to fulfilling itself in active
participation, _making things happen_. The Audacity is slightly
flattering, in an encouraging sense, hmmm :-\
In his talk the other day to the graduating class of a police pcademy
in Ohio, he says "I know that this country never responded to a crisis
by sitting on the sidelines and _hoping_ .... for the best." And you
should hear his disapproving tone as he flops down "hoping", followed
by a moment's pause with that 'perish the thought, folks!' expression
on his face.
Break the mold! Rebel a bit, already!
Hope is too often Desire disabled, on anti-initiative drugs, or
asleep.
Till along comes Sir Audacity ;-) )
Audacity shall be known as intrinsic to hope; henceforth stirred to
intentions and action.
I wonder **what are the circumstances of this translation**?
~
Dale
On Mar 8, 9:57 am, GOODMAN <otto.rei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Audacity が新しい使われ方をしているのだと考え、検索したところhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/bgpmv9
Mika Jarmusz
>結局、Audacity of hope は、『米国民よ、大志をいだけ』ということになるのでしょうか。
>Yes but I don't think hope has audacity either. Audacity is also a quality of a human, although you can talk about the audacity of someone's actions.
Richard Thieme
件名 : Re: Audacity of hope (different grammar construction)
> >結局、Audacity of hope は、『米国民よ、大志をいだけ』ということになるのでしょうか。
> そうですね。著書の題名には大変ふさわしいかもしれませんね。
> （私はその本をまだ読んでいないので、これまでの印象でしか判断できませんが。）
>
>
>>Yes but I don't think hope has audacity either. Audacity is also a quality
> of a human, although you can talk about the audacity of someone's actions.
> それ！そこなんです。頭で考えるとAudacity of Hopeは意外なとりあわせです。
> でもその意外性が、英語では功を奏しています。英語では。
>
> ところが日本語では、理屈ではおかしくない「はず」の取り合わせが、それぞれの語の持つ意味（辞書には記載されていないけれども、その語が持っている「何か」）が衝突葛藤する、つまり本来の意味の伝達に失敗するわけです。そうすると途方も無く「マヌケ」に伝わります。でしょう？
>
> --
which is why Joji Matsuo's suggestion of 希望のオーダシティー might be the
way to go.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Joji Matsuo
> which is why Joji Matsuo's suggestion of 希望のオーダシティー might be the
> way to go.
Actually, my recommendation was 希望という名のオーダシティー.
But after reading GOODMAN's take on it, and his(her?) mentioning of "Boys,
be ambitious", I must admit this famous phrase kept popping in my head in
thinking about the true meaning of this phrase.
GOODMAN poses the question:
>Audacity は、至高を希求する精神とでも定義できるでしょうか?
Normally, I'd say no. But in this context, and the fact that Obama, who
comes across as an encourager (as opposed to a criticizer) of ideals, I'd
say yes. I take it his intention is to instill the spirit of hoping for
something better. In the spirit of instilling positive-minded concepts, what
better phrase than "Boys, be ambitious".
Joji Matsuo
Omaezaki, Shizuoka
Dale Ponte
> >結局、Audacity of hope は、『米国民よ、大志をいだけ』ということになるのでしょうか。
>
> そうですね。著書の題名には大変ふさわしいかもしれませんね。
to defeat, lessen, practically contradict the universality of his
slogan. There can be no doubt that the book was written and published
(2006) with plenty of translation-lives, and even globally-infused
presidency, in mind from the get-go. So much of his success and
significance is about universal appeal, universal connectivity.
I guess my take is that this title should present itself in 日本語 as if
it were meant _for_ the citizens of Japan, as well. Does this
sound ... sound?
Interesting brainstorm, this meandering thread, and nice objectivity.
Dale
Mika Jarmusz
> Hmmm, are we sure the _米国_民 ought to be in there?
著書の題名としてのひびきはいいかも、というコメントでした。
To me, Audacity of Hope is neither 自力本願 nor 他力本願, but the underlining power comes from within and from the above. Fred's 奇跡 captures this quality. Likewise, 大いなる is divine.
Dwight Van Winkle
When I first read 「大いなる希望」 I just read "big hope" and thought it was
incomplete. After reading your explanation I realized I had been
thinking 「大いなる」was just another way to say "big." and that for a
native speaker there was something different about the word.
My 広辞苑 defines 「大いなる」 as 「大きな」 or 「大変な」、but there must be something
more I'm not seeing. Where does the extra meaning I'm missing come
from? Is it the sound? Just the way the word is used by Japanese
people? Is it なんとなく？
I hope this question makes sense. I like the word 「大いなる」. I assume
the translation in most cases would not be "audacity." Do you or does
anyone else have a translation other than "big"? Thanks.
Mika Jarmusz
> Where does the extra meaning I'm missing come from? Is it the sound? Just the way the word is used by Japanese people? Is it なんとなく？
> I assume the translation in most cases would not be "audacity."
Marc Adler
>> I assume the translation in most cases would not be "audacity."
>
> そりゃそうです。audacityだけを抜き出してもだめです。
You know, I don't know. Googling 大いなる in quotes produces a lot of
instances in which "audacious" would be a pretty good translation.
大いなる陰謀
大いなる野望
大いなる勇者
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Mika Jarmusz
Well, I'll be :)
一つ訂正です。
> 心の持ち方、よりどころとしての希望が大きいわけです。