OT: learned something new...
Brian Watson
（彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。[kanozyo no zinsei no hanryo mo kasyu da to]
Wow. I had never encountered this phraseology in Japanese before. I love it.
--
Brian Watson
http://www.studiomomo.com
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), +1.425.484.6429 (fax)
Manako Ihaya
Being sensitive to the use of terms like 'spouse' and 'partner' in English, I was quite surprise to run across the following today while translating a newspaper article from 2001.
（彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。[kanozyo no zinsei no hanryo mo kasyu da to]
Wow. I had never encountered this phraseology in Japanese before. I love it.
Manako @ been 配偶者-less for six years now but I do have a 伴侶!
--
Manako Ihaya (aka Monica)
ATA-Certified Japanese-English Translator
Lake Forest, California
Anthony Bryant
On Jul 3, 2007, at 8:05 PM, Brian Watson wrote:
> Being sensitive to the use of terms like 'spouse' and 'partner' in
> English, I was quite surprise to run across the following today
> while translating a newspaper article from 2001.
>
> （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。[kanozyo no zinsei no
> hanryo mo kasyu da to]
>
> Wow. I had never encountered this phraseology in Japanese before. I
> love it.
It looks like a good pair with the English "life partner," which one
sees from time to time.
Tony
Brian Watson
It looks like a good pair with the English "life partner," which one
sees from time to time.
Which is precisely why I was so impressed.
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Manako Ihaya" <man...@ihaya.org>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2007年7月4日 9:17
件名 : Re: OT: learned something new...
> On 7/3/07, Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Being sensitive to the use of terms like 'spouse' and 'partner' in
>> English, I was quite surprise to run across the following today while
>> translating a newspaper article from 2001.
>>
>> （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。[kanozyo no zinsei no hanryo mo kasyu
>> da to]
>>
>> Wow. I had never encountered this phraseology in Japanese before. I love
>> it.
>
>
>
> ...except just last week I blanked out on 配偶者 for "spouse" during a
> deposition and used 伴侶. The deponent looked at me and asked, 「はんりょって何ですか」。I
> quickly resorted to my trusty electronic dictionary and used 配偶者 after
> that.... :-p
>
> Manako @ been 配偶者-less for six years now but I do have a 伴侶!
> --
In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle things
like "significant other," "partner," 等等
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Anthony Bryant
On Jul 3, 2007, at 8:45 PM, Brian Watson wrote:
>
>
> On 7/3/07, Anthony Bryant <anthony...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> It looks like a good pair with the English "life partner," which one
> sees from time to time.
>
> Which is precisely why I was so impressed.
Do you think it was a term coined by someone familiar with the
English phrase, or that it was just a fortuitous independent creation?
Tony
Brian Watson
On Jul 3, 2007, at 8:45 PM, Brian Watson wrote:
>
>
> On 7/3/07, Anthony Bryant <anthony...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> It looks like a good pair with the English "life partner," which one
> sees from time to time.
>
> Which is precisely why I was so impressed.
Do you think it was a term coined by someone familiar with the
English phrase, or that it was just a fortuitous independent creation?
The article in question was written by a (Japanese) cultural news reporter for the Yomiuri Shimbun, so I wonder about the former... I suspect that the interviewee, a Japanese opera singer, may have used it herself...
Anthony Bryant
On Jul 3, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Brian Watson wrote:
>
> > Do you think it was a term coined by someone familiar with the
> > English phrase, or that it was just a fortuitous independent
> creation?
>
> The article in question was written by a (Japanese) cultural news
> reporter for the Yomiuri Shimbun, so I wonder about the former... I
> suspect that the interviewee, a Japanese opera singer, may have
> used it herself...
>
Interesting. Thanks for that. It's still a good term to know.
Speaking of opera singers... RIP, Beverly Sills. She had a set of
lungs on her. Ironically, so to speak. Dying of lung cancer and never
having smoked really sucks.
Tony
Peter Durfee
> In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle things
> like "significant other," "partner," 等等
I'm not Manako, but I hear パートナー quite often to refer to these, well,
partners. In context it's generally clear that these aren't business
partners or the like.
--
Peter Durfee
du...@gol.com
Tokyo
Manako Ihaya
On 7/4/07 10:04 AM, "Richard Thieme" <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
> In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle things
> like "significant other," "partner," 等等
I'm not Manako, but I hear パートナー quite often to refer to these, well,
partners. In context it's generally clear that these aren't business
partners or the like.
Thanks, Peter! I actually don't have recent, first-hand experience of using or hearing what they are called in Japanese, so I really couldn't answer. Somehow the words 連れ合い and 相棒 come to mind, though. I personally like 連れ合い a lot. :-)
Eric Tschetter
> > things like "significant other," "partner," 等等
>
> I'm not Manako, but I hear パートナー quite often to refer to
> these, well, partners. In context it's generally clear that
> these aren't business partners or the like.
パートナー can also be used to mean "an equal partner in the relationship"
rather than have an unbalanced relationship where one person makes all the
decisions and the other just follows. It was used this way on a recent TV
show, 冗談じゃない. The line was something like,
付いていくだけじゃいやよ。パートナーになりたいの
Anyway, just wanted to reinforce that you have to pay attention to the
context, not trying to say that the above is wrong.
--Eric Tschetter
er...@nii.ac.jp
Matthew Fitsko
> 人生の伴侶
I don't know if anyone's bothered to google this term, but it seems
relatively common (50,000+ hits). As Brian said, he came across this
term in an article from 2001, so it is at least 6 years old and usage
has probably gone up since then.
I've only glanced at the search results, but I get the impression that
the Japanese term takes a slightly broader meaning than the English
"life partner". (For example, one Amazon.com reviewer refers to heavy
metal music as his/her 人生の伴侶, and the Japanese Wikipedia article on
"companion animals" (コンパニオンアニマル) also uses the term: 単なる愛玩物・所有物としてのペットで
はなく、「人生の伴侶」としての動物であるとして....)
Anecdotally, my own life partner and I (still unmarried) brainstormed
a while back about how to refer to each other in Japanese. To her (a
NJS), 彼氏・彼女 just felt too weak, and strictly speaking 旦那・妻 were also
out. We (somewhat jokingly) decided to simply use パートナー.
Matthew Fitsko
Alan Siegrist
> In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle
> things like "significant other," "partner," 等等
Have 彼氏 and 彼女 gone out of fashion? Or are you asking about the
situation when someone wishes to be discrete and ambiguous about the sex of
their partner or S.O.?
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
AlanFS...@Comcast.net
Mika Jz
> English phrase, or that it was just a fortuitous independent creation?
My 学研国語大辞典 indicates 【伴侶】 has been in use for a while.
◆弥勒の野に静に幼な児を伴侶として居るさびしき友の心を思うと書いてあった
〔田山花袋(明治五～昭和五) ･田舎教師〕
◆鴎(ｶﾓﾒ)に似た鳥が一羽伴侶もなく翔(ﾄ)んだ
〔宮本百合子(明治三二～昭和二六) ･伸子〕
Google finds some 侶伴 (characters reversed) in 漢文.
"の伴侶" gets variations like 魂の伴侶、生涯の伴侶、最良の伴侶、永遠の
伴侶．．．．
As for "significant other", 重要な他者sounds rather chockie but is found
in the following text:
http://tms.tamacc.chuo-u.ac.jp/pdf/tankyu01.PDF
個人に影響を与える人物のことを重要な他者
（Significant other）と呼ぶ（安達，1987）。
quote from Wikipedia:
Its usage in both psychology and sociology is very different from its
colloquial use. In psychology, a significant other is any person who has
great importance to an individual's life or well-being. In sociology, it
describes any person or persons with a strong influence on an
individual's self-evaluation, which are important to this individual, as
well as reception of particular social norms. This usage is synonymous
with the term "relevant other" and can also be found in plural
form-"significant others".
In social psychology a significant other is the parent, uncle,
grandparent, or teacher - the person that guides and takes care of a
child during primary socialization. The significant other protects,
rewards and punishes the child as a way of aiding the child's
development. This usually takes about six or seven years, and after that
the significant other is no longer needed, the child moves on to a
general other which is not a real person, but an abstract notion of what
society deems good or bad.
--end of quote
清水美香 Mika Shimizu Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA
Marc Adler
> Do you think it was a term coined by someone familiar with the
> English phrase, or that it was just a fortuitous independent creation?
It's old. Kojien has a citation from the early 13th century. It also
exists in Chinese as banlu. I wouldn't be surprised if most languages
had a way of expressing this, though.
--
Marc Adler
Austin, TX
Peter Durfee
> Richard Thieme writes:
>
>> In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle
>> things like "significant other," "partner," 等等
>
> Have 彼氏 and 彼女 gone out of fashion? Or are you asking about the
> situation when someone wishes to be discrete and ambiguous about the sex of
> their partner or S.O.?
パートナー as I hear it used can mean the same-sex type, but more often I
think it means "we aren't married, but we're in it for the long haul" and
applies to heterosexual relationships.
Alan Siegrist
> As for "significant other", 重要な他者sounds rather chockie but is found
> in the following text:
> http://tms.tamacc.chuo-u.ac.jp/pdf/tankyu01.PDF
> 個人に影響を与える人物のことを重要な他者
> （Significant other）と呼ぶ（安達，1987）。
>
> quote from Wikipedia:
>
> Its usage in both psychology and sociology is very different from its
> colloquial use.
I was not aware of the meaning of "significant other" in psychology, but I
am now.
I think we are talking about its meaning in colloquial use, which is fairly
roughly 恋人, or namely a lover but not a spouse.
It would be pretty awkward to introduce someone as one's 重要な他者 at a
party....
Matthew Fitsko
Of course 伴侶 and 侶伴 by themselves are old, just as the English word
"partner" is also quite old. But I think Brian in the OP was talking
about the *new* meanings of "partner" and "life partner" that have
come into use as a result of GBLT awareness and an increase in non-
standard marriages/long-term relationships. The examples Mika cited
clearly do not have those meanings.
Alan,
As an equivalent for "life partner", I think 彼氏 and 彼女 are pretty
weak. It's the same as if you were in a 10-year monogamous unmarried
relationship with someone, and still referred to them as "boyfriend"
or "girlfriend". As for "significant other", I agree with you that the
meaning generally means unmarried.
I think "life partner" in English has become a very general term for a
long-term human partner. Both married and unmarried, heterosexual and
homosexual relationships are included.
So what's a good Japanese phrase for that?
PS - from Wikipedia: "A Life partner is a romantic partner for life.
This can be same-sex or opposite-sex, married or without marriage, and
monogamous or polyamorous."
Matthew Fitsko
Christopher Girsch
>
>Richard Thieme writes:
>
>> In all seriousness I would be interested in hearing how you handle
>> things like "significant other," "partner," 等等
Alan responded:
>
>Have 彼氏 and 彼女 gone out of fashion? Or are you asking about the
>situation when someone wishes to be discrete and ambiguous about the sex of
>their partner or S.O.?
>
I always thought that these were more closely aligned to boyfriend/girlfriend.
I sometimes refer to my wife as 「女房」 with the intent to mean "my
better half" although I doubt that the particular Japanese person I
may be talking to interprets it that way.
Chris Girsch
Alan Siegrist
> As an equivalent for "life partner", I think 彼氏 and 彼女 are pretty
> weak. It's the same as if you were in a 10-year monogamous unmarried
> relationship with someone, and still referred to them as "boyfriend"
> or "girlfriend". As for "significant other", I agree with you that the
> meaning generally means unmarried.
I see what you mean, but I got the feeling that 彼氏 and 彼女 can refer to a
stronger and more long-term relationship than the English "boyfriend" and
"girlfriend." For example, I recall a fairly mature Japanese lady referring
to a somewhat younger live-in lover as her 彼氏. Maybe she was being a bit
"girlish" in her choice of words, but she didn't seem the slightest bit
embarrassed about it. Similarly, I recall 彼女 being used by a Japanese man
to refer to the other party in a long-term extramarital arrangement.
Somehow, I can't quite picture either of these people using パートナー.
Karen Sandness
here. Over the past twenty years or so, I've become accustomed to hear
"partner" only in reference to same-sex relationships. Reading fiction
written in the UK, I was at first surprised to see characters refer to
their heterosexual lovers or spouses as their "partner," but I guess
that's the norm there.
Terminologically yours,
Karen Sandness
Alan Siegrist
> I think there's a difference between North American and British usage
here.
> Over the past twenty years or so, I've become accustomed to hear "partner"
> only in reference to same-sex relationships. Reading fiction written in
> the UK, I was at first surprised to see characters refer to their
> heterosexual lovers or spouses as their "partner," but I guess that's the
> norm there.
It might be a regional thing, as you say. I have seen this same phenomenon
here in California where not only homosexual but also heterosexual live-in
lovers are also now being called "partners." This may have something to do
with some recent laws that established "domestic partnership" status which
confers some or all of the rights and responsibilities of marriage to those
couples registering as such.
Matthew Fitsko
On Jul 4, 12:21 pm, "Alan Siegrist" <AlanFSiegr...@Comcast.net> wrote:
> I see what you mean, but I got the feeling that 彼氏 and 彼女 can refer to a
> stronger and more long-term relationship than the English "boyfriend" and
> "girlfriend." For example, I recall a fairly mature Japanese lady referring
> to a somewhat younger live-in lover as her 彼氏. Maybe she was being a bit
> "girlish" in her choice of words, but she didn't seem the slightest bit
> embarrassed about it. Similarly, I recall 彼女 being used by a Japanese man
> to refer to the other party in a long-term extramarital arrangement.
Those are interesting counterexamples. In contrast, as I explained
previously my NJS told me that I was no longer "just a 彼氏" after she
and I had been in a committed relationship for some time.
Karen,
> I've become accustomed to hear "partner"
> only in reference to same-sex relationships.
That's my general impression, too. I didn't know that about UK usage.
Now that you mention it, "partner" can also be used like in the
question, "How many partners have you had?" (e.g., during an STD
check). I suppose that's just short for "sex partners", but it does
make "partner" by itself sound like someone in a short-term
relationship.
Matthew Fitsko
Daniel Day
An English guy told me the word "roommmate" is used in British English
for the other in a same-sex relationship.
Dan Day
Corbett, Oregon, USA
Jim Lockhart
It is NOT. It has been around (as others have already shown) for
centuries.
If anything, the Japanese word 妻, which originally could be applied to
male or female, is "partner". Even today, one side of a pair of things
can be called つま, especially if the item is something that hangs (like
curtains). The left and right parts of a garment that join or overlap
are also called つま。
If you want to know what gay Japanese partners call eachother, you might
want to ask some gays. Don't be surprised when words like だんな, 恋人,
and 同居人 come back at you. Although I'm not at all familiar with
what's used in any gay subcultures here, in common discourse, I haven't
noticed the use of any special words.
Another REALLY common word for husband, wife, partner, etc., is つれ or
つれあい. This is common among people who don't think the nuances of,
especially, 家内 and 女房 apply. Though far more common these days, its
use too is not new (let alone an influence from outside). I also
wouldn't be surprised if gays used it.
My favorite word for "my wife," though, is one few non-Japanese seem to
be aware of (or, at least, few non-Japanese who are in the
criticize-Japan business), is かみさん. Even my 21 year old son refers
to his 23-your old wife "kamisan" sometimes (though he usually uses her
name).
One acquaintance who has lived with his (female) partner for about 20
years refers to her as 同居人.
Perhaps Mika or Shinya could give some better explanations about the
finer nuances of these usages.
Projecting Euro-American (especially American) concepts and perceptions
on Japanese words of seemingly similar meaning entails great dangers, if
you ask me.
Fwiw,
--Jim Lockhart
Matthew Fitsko
On Jul 4, 1:39 pm, Jim Lockhart <jamesalockh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is NOT. It has been around (as others have already shown) for
> centuries.
As I already explained in response to Marc's and Mika's posts, the OP
was talking about the phrase 人生の伴侶, not just 伴侶. I don't think anyone
here was suggesting that 伴侶 was just invented out of the blue in
response to an English word.
Look at the OP's phrase: （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。Are you saying that 人生の伴侶
used in this context is centuries old? I find that hard to believe.
> If anything, the Japanese word 妻, which originally could be applied to
> male or female, is "partner".
This is intriguing, but the modern meaning of 妻 is very specific
(female spouse), and it would be confusing or silly for a Japanese
homosexual man to refer to his partner as 妻.
> If you want to know what gay Japanese partners call eachother, you might
> want to ask some gays. Don't be surprised when words like だんな, 恋人,
> and 同居人 come back at you. Although I'm not at all familiar with
> what's used in any gay subcultures here, in common discourse, I haven't
> noticed the use of any special words.
>
> Another REALLY common word for husband, wife, partner, etc., is つれ or
> つれあい. This is common among people who don't think the nuances of,
> especially, 家内 and 女房 apply. Though far more common these days, its
> use too is not new (let alone an influence from outside). I also
> wouldn't be surprised if gays used it.
Likewise, English-speaking homosexuals sometimes refer to their
partners as "husband", "lover", or (citing Dan) even "roommate". That
still doesn't negate the fact that a native Japanese speaker used the
term 人生の伴侶 in a newspaper article.
> Projecting Euro-American (especially American) concepts and perceptions
> on Japanese words of seemingly similar meaning entails great dangers, if
> you ask me.
Except Japanese people do that *all the time* in order to update the
language with new concepts and ideas in modern life. As translators,
it is our job to be sensitive to such changes. Or to go back to the
original post, why did the newspaper writer use the term 人生の伴侶? Do you
think that in that context it was not equivalent to the English phrase
"life partner"? If we're all just projecting our Western attitudes
here, why didn't the Japanese writer simply use one of the terms you
have listed?
Matthew Fitsko
Brian Watson
If you want to know what gay Japanese partners call eachother, you might
want to ask some gays. Don't be surprised when words like だんな, 恋人,
and 同居人 come back at you. Although I'm not at all familiar with
what's used in any gay subcultures here, in common discourse, I haven't
noticed the use of any special words.
Being partnered to a gay Japanese male, I can tell you that we usually refer to one another as 旦那 to one another or when with friends. In English he is my partner, although once we are legally wed here in Canada, he will be my husband and I his. (Which reminds me how I was frequently asked by older women, both Japanese and non-, when I lived in Japan, which one of us was the 'wife'. Had I wanted a wife, I said, I'd have been straight.)
My partner's mother refers to me as お友達さん, which is quaint and cute. Among our gay Japanese friends, mostly based in the Tokyo area, 彼氏 is for relationships that are fairly new still, 旦那 is for longer-term arrangements. 兄貴 is heard now and then too, but that's another topic...
Jim Lockhart
> On Jul 4, 1:39 pm, Jim Lockhart <jamesalockh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It is NOT. It has been around (as others have already shown) for
> > centuries.
>
> As I already explained in response to Marc's and Mika's posts, the OP
> was talking about the phrase 人生の伴侶, not just 伴侶. I don't think anyone
> here was suggesting that 伴侶 was just invented out of the blue in
> response to an English word.
Someone posited the notion.
I was also talking about 人生の伴侶 as a subset of 伴侶: it's been
around for ever and day; Anthony (and obviously manner others here) just
happened to notice it recently. I'm glad that Anthony has found an
expression he's been searching for for years, one that he's known must
be there somewhere, but has had to improvise to get the concept across,
and has finally (yippee!) found--that still happens to me a lot, too.
> Look at the OP's phrase: （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。Are you saying that 人生の伴侶
> used in this context is centuries old? I find that hard to believe.
歌が歌手の人生の伴侶だ is nothing new. What an NHK program with the
likes of Kobayashi Sachiko, Yashiro Aki, or even Sakamoto Fuyumi and
you're likely to here the expression. Better yet, dig out a tape of such
an NHK program from the 1970s or 80s, and you're likely to hear
it--probably from the mouth of Osora Hibari.
> > If anything, the Japanese word 妻, which originally could be applied to
> > male or female, is "partner".
> This is intriguing, but the modern meaning of 妻 is very specific
> (female spouse), and it would be confusing or silly for a Japanese
> homosexual man to refer to his partner as 妻.
Did I recommend that gays refer to their partners as 妻? It would not
surprise me if some of them did (such is the flexibility of Japanese).
Nevertheless, I was commenting on the development of the word: it is
only more recent history that tsuma has come to refer to only the female
partner in a relationship, and that although it translates into English
as "wife", it can have some very different nuances.
I'm not sure when tsuma came to refer to only a female partner, much
less a (legal) spouse; nor am I sure which class began using it first.
But equating it with "wife" in an English sense, except in its
post-Meiji meaning, is inaccurate.
I don't expect everyone to know this sort of detail about a word--not
your Taro-in-the-steet is aware of all these things any more; but I do
if you're going to cast doubt on the information I provided.
> > If you want to know what gay Japanese partners call eachother, you might
> > want to ask some gays. Don't be surprised when words like だんな, 恋人,
> > and 同居人 come back at you. Although I'm not at all familiar with
> > what's used in any gay subcultures here, in common discourse, I haven't
> > noticed the use of any special words.
> >
> > Another REALLY common word for husband, wife, partner, etc., is つれ or
> > つれあい. This is common among people who don't think the nuances of,
> > especially, 家内 and 女房 apply. Though far more common these days, its
> > use too is not new (let alone an influence from outside). I also
> > wouldn't be surprised if gays used it.
>
> Likewise, English-speaking homosexuals sometimes refer to their
> partners as "husband", "lover", or (citing Dan) even "roommate". That
> still doesn't negate the fact that a native Japanese speaker used the
> term 人生の伴侶 in a newspaper article.
>
> > Projecting Euro-American (especially American) concepts and perceptions
> > on Japanese words of seemingly similar meaning entails great dangers, if
> > you ask me.
>
> Except Japanese people do that *all the time* in order to update the
> language with new concepts and ideas in modern life. As translators,
> it is our job to be sensitive to such changes.
If someone identifies a word as one of those "language updates" you're
lecturing me about here, but it is no such thing (the point of my
argument), then that person has misidentified the word. And this sort of
thing happens a lot with respect to Japan, especially among journalists
with half-baked knowledge about (or a chip on their should against)
Japan (or both).
Of course being sensitive to (such) changes in Japanese is part of our
job (as it is with regard to our other language as well--nothing can be
funnier to see a modern translation written in the language of the 1960s).
It, like maintaining confidentiality in all circumstances, is a mainstay
of our profession and shouldn't even need mention.
> Or to go back to the
> original post, why did the newspaper writer use the term 人生の伴侶? Do you
> think that in that context it was not equivalent to the English phrase
> "life partner"? If we're all just projecting our Western attitudes
> here, why didn't the Japanese writer simply use one of the terms you
> have listed?
Probably because 人生の伴侶 belongs on the list of terms I listed. It is
the Japanese equivalent of "life partner" or "partner for life" or even
"fellow traveler through life", albeit regardless of the marital status
or sexual orientation of the people involved.
To be honest, I don't think this is any kind of "new concept" among the
Japanese. What makes you so sure that the Japanese don't already have
expressions that are specific to gay life partnerships? (I don't know
whether they do, but I'm sure there are a few people on this list who
can speak up on that aspect of the language.)
Everybody knows what an おかま is; do you know what お鍋 and おこげ (or
おこげ族) refer to? The language is rich in such expressions.
--Jim Lockhart
Jim Lockhart
> > If you want to know what gay Japanese partners call eachother, you might
> > want to ask some gays. Don't be surprised when words like だんな, 恋人,
> > and 同居人 come back at you. Although I'm not at all familiar with
> > what's used in any gay subcultures here, in common discourse, I haven't
> > noticed the use of any special words.
>
> Being partnered to a gay Japanese male, I can tell you that we usually refer
> to one another as 旦那 to one another or when with friends. In English he is
> my partner, although once we are legally wed here in Canada, he will be my
> husband and I his. (Which reminds me how I was frequently asked by older
> women, both Japanese and non-, when I lived in Japan, which one of us was
> the 'wife'. Had I wanted a wife, I said, I'd have been straight.)
>
> My partner's mother refers to me as お友達さん, which is quaint and cute. Among
> our gay Japanese friends, mostly based in the Tokyo area, 彼氏 is for
> relationships that are fairly new still, 旦那 is for longer-term arrangements.
> 兄貴 is heard now and then too, but that's another topic...
That's what I thought might be the case. 人生の伴侶 can be just another
tool in your box, so to speak--especially in situations where naming
your partners biological sex is irrelevant or disadvantageous.
Fwiw, I think だんな implies a far tighter relationship than 同居人
would.
Btw, one more partnership term that seems to be gender-neutral, is うち
のひと, and I wouldn't be surprised if it worked among gays, too.
For whatever reasons--i.e., good ("gay or straight: Does it matter?")or
bad ("Gay? Get outta here!")--in Japanese, the preference seems to be to
use normal, everyday words that don't make any particular statement.
If only English were so simple.
--Jim Lockhart
Brian Watson
For whatever reasons--i.e., good ("gay or straight: Does it matter?")or
bad ("Gay? Get outta here!")--in Japanese, the preference seems to be to
use normal, everyday words that don't make any particular statement.
When I was working for an extremely homophobic boss in Japan many years ago, he would often inquire into my personal life, and I always did the pronoun switch, something that gays did/do in English in similar situations (which I thankfully haven't encountered since moving to Washington State in 1998 and then to BC last year).
The (perhaps not-so-) strange thing was that I heard from so co-workers years after I left that job that the boss knew that I was probably gay anyway. Heck, the astronauts on the ISS can probably tell that I'm gay. Of course, his term for what he thought I was was 普通ではない人. Which is just as nasty on my ear as 'abnormal' is in English, but it didn't bother my partner for a while until he heard me say, 我々は非普通ではないよ to someone else in retort.
Matthew Fitsko
On Jul 4, 3:24 pm, Jim Lockhart <jamesalockh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matthew Fitsko <matthew.fit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As I already explained in response to Marc's and Mika's posts, the OP
> > was talking about the phrase 人生の伴侶, not just 伴侶. I don't think anyone
> > here was suggesting that 伴侶 was just invented out of the blue in
> > response to an English word.
>
> Someone posited the notion.
Who?
> I was also talking about 人生の伴侶 as a subset of 伴侶: it's been
> around for ever and day; Anthony (and obviously manner others here) just
> happened to notice it recently.
The OP was Brian, and...
> > Look at the OP's phrase: （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。Are you saying that 人生の伴侶
> > used in this context is centuries old? I find that hard to believe.
>
> 歌が歌手の人生の伴侶だ is nothing new.
...that's definitely NOT the meaning of the phrase in the OP. The OP
phrase is "[Her] life partner is also a singer." Presumably as in, her
lesbian partner is also a singer. Please read more carefully.
> If someone identifies a word as one of those "language updates" you're
> lecturing me about here, but it is no such thing (the point of my
> argument), then that person has misidentified the word. And this sort of
> thing happens a lot with respect to Japan, especially among journalists
> with half-baked knowledge about (or a chip on their should against)
> Japan (or both).
Jim, I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you or lecture you. I
appreciate and respect the etymological knowledge you bring to the
table. But you also seem to be insinuating that some of us in this
discussion are "projecting Euro-American notions" or have an anti-
Japanese streak, and that's just not the case.
As for whether 人生の伴侶 *in the OP's context* is new, first consider the
English "life partner". "Life partner", in and of itself, is probably
older than you and I put together. But only the last few decades has
it come to take on a new meaning; specifically, "a romantic partner
for life. This can be same-sex or opposite-sex, married or without
marriage, and monogamous or polyamorous." (Wikipedia). That doesn't
mean there weren't other pre-existing terms before (like "partner"),
just that a new term has appeared that is useful because it
specifically refers to romantic partnerships, but is general enough to
include almost any kind of committed relationship between two people.
I know that 伴侶 is positively ancient, and 人生の伴侶 has also been around
for a while. I also noted that its meaning is fairly broad (see my
first post in this thread). The question is whether 人生の伴侶 is starting
to coalesce into a term with the same kind of connotation that "life
partner" now has in English. You don't seem to agree, and point to the
fact that 人生の伴侶 has been around for ages. But similarly the English
"life partner" has been around for ages, too, but that doesn't mean
there isn't something new about the specific connotations it has
recently acquired.
> Everybody knows what an おかま is; do you know what お鍋 and おこげ (or
> おこげ族) refer to? The language is rich in such expressions.
English is similarly rich. But that doesn't mean you can use those
words in a newspaper.
I'm surprised that no one has brought up Dakara yet.
Matthew Fitsko
Marc Adler
> Look at the OP's phrase: （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）。Are you saying that 人生の伴侶
> used in this context is centuries old? I find that hard to believe.
I'd say it's at least Meiji vintage, probably older. (It also comes in
the common variant 生涯の伴侶, by the way.) One clue to its age is the
not infrequent metaphorical extension of its usage. Your 人生の伴侶
could be money, a car, a house, etc. - anything you've got (or intend to
keep) for life (like it or not).
Not only that, but 人生的伴侶 and 生涯的伴侶 (something perhaps like the
Chinese equivalent, Kirill?) each get more than 20,000 hits, which isn't
too shabby for a Chinese hit.
Either way, it's been around a long time, and it's highly unlikely that
the phrase was coined on the basis of "life partner" which is still so
awkwardly new in English that it sounds like an inept translation from
some Japanese katakana phrase.
Matthew Fitsko
On Jul 4, 4:21 pm, Marc Adler <m...@adlerpacific.com> wrote:
> I'd say it's at least Meiji vintage, probably older. (It also comes in
> the common variant 生涯の伴侶, by the way.) One clue to its age is the
> not infrequent metaphorical extension of its usage. Your 人生の伴侶
> could be money, a car, a house, etc. - anything you've got (or intend to
> keep) for life (like it or not).
>
You and Jim and a little research have sufficiently convinced me that 人
生の伴侶 is old. My question is whether using 人生の伴侶 to refer to homosexual
relationships and/or long-term unmarried relationships (like the way
it was used in the OP) is new or not. "Partner" is likewise an old
word, but partner referring to homosexual partners is fairly new in
English.
Matthew Fitsko
Jim Lockhart
'S not.
Gee, Anthony didn't seem to take offense at anything I wrote; why do you?
I concede that you're right about my reading of （彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと）,
though I cannot get that she's a lesbian just from that sentence.
And I was annoyed at all the "gee, I wonder ifs" going back and forth,
since "a little research [should] have sufficiently convinced [anyone] that
人生の伴侶 is old." (Although that doesn't mean I don't appreciate
Anthony's delight at his discovery--I DO appreciate that.)
As far as my implying anything about people on this list: Unless I wrote
otherwise, I was writing about generalities. So if the foo don't shit,
don't wear it.
But now that this branch of the thread has developed into a proverbial
pissing contest, I suppose we won't get the useful and usually
interesting input from Mika, Shinya, Shu and maybe some other Japanese
participants--all of whom probably walked away from this thread holding
their noses about two messages ago.
--Jim Lockhart
Mari Hodges
うちのかみさん。What does that actually mean though?
Mari Hodges
Mari Hodges
it did seem to me to reflect different attitudes of young people that don't
want to use 家内or 女房。
Mari Hodges
----- Original Message -----
Mike Sekine
Mike
William Sakovich
it did seem to me to reflect different attitudes of young people that don't
want to use 家内or 女房。]]
It's not uncommon in Japan now (though of course not universal). And I've
heard middle-aged men use it too.
One of the funniest was one man who referred to his wife as 家外 rather than
家内, but only among friends who knew that his wife was very involved with a
lot of different activities outside the home.
- BS
Marc Adler
> 生の伴侶 is old. My question is whether using 人生の伴侶 to refer to homosexual
> relationships and/or long-term unmarried relationships (like the way
For the latter, probably, but to the extent that anyone talks about
homosexual relationships, I'm guessing that 人生の伴侶 probably had some
currency, if only because of its metaphorical scalability. In other
words, if you a singer can plausibly call "songs" her 人生の伴侶, then I
doubt anyone would look askance at someone who described his better half
in those words.
Actually, I've read that homosexuality was as common among samurai as it
was among the Greeks (the classical variety), so there probably was a
whole gaggle of terms they used to describe the relationships.
Mari Hodges
Eric Tschetter
>
> >
> > households?
> >
I believe it is actually 上さん, which I am fairly certain can also be used
to refer to someone else's wife as well as to a female restaurant
proprietor.
--Eric Tschetter
er...@nii.ac.jp
Ko Iwata
I thought it came from コロンボ警部's invisible wife.
☆♪♯♭ Ko Iwata ♭♯♪★
岩田 香
Mitaka City, Japan
koi...@parkcity.ne.jp
Richard Thieme
http://www.ffortune.net/sex/border/word.htm
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Jim Lockhart" <jamesal...@gmail.com>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2007年7月4日 16:52
件名 : Re: OT: learned something new...
Shinya Suzuki
> Another REALLY common word for husband, wife, partner, etc., is つれ or
> つれあい.
Yeah, these are nice words, especially the latter.
> My favorite word for "my wife," though, is one few non-Japanese seem to
> be aware of (or, at least, few non-Japanese who are in the
> criticize-Japan business), is かみさん. Even my 21 year old son refers
> to his 23-your old wife "kamisan" sometimes (though he usually uses her
> name).
That's nice too, implying a down-to-earth, cheerful and congenial
relationship.
Some of us remember the pet phrase of 刑事コロンボ dubbed as うちのかみ
さんが.
Shinya Suzuki
Shinya Suzuki
> On Jul 4, 4:21 pm, Marc Adler <m...@adlerpacific.com> wrote:
> > I'd say it's at least Meiji vintage, probably older. (It also comes in
> > the common variant 生涯の伴侶, by the way.) One clue to its age is the
> > not infrequent metaphorical extension of its usage. Your 人生の伴侶
> > could be money, a car, a house, etc. - anything you've got (or intend to
> > keep) for life (like it or not).
I guess you can call these worldly things 人生の伴侶 only jokingly. In
other words, the phrase requires something that has a deeper meaning in
one's life.
> You and Jim and a little research have sufficiently convinced me that 人
> 生の伴侶 is old. My question is whether using 人生の伴侶 to refer to homosexual
> relationships and/or long-term unmarried relationships (like the way
> it was used in the OP) is new or not. "Partner" is likewise an old
> word, but partner referring to homosexual partners is fairly new in
> English.
I see nothing unusual about these parallel developments in the two
languages. BTW, "the way it was used in the OP", namely
（彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと） does not imply "homosexual and/or
unmarried relationships", as indicated by Jim.
Shinya Suzuki
Shinya Suzuki
> I believe it is actually 上さん, which I am fairly certain can also be used
> to refer to someone else's wife as well as to a female restaurant
> proprietor.
Please note that 「かみさん」「おかみさん」 and 「おかみ」 have rather
different nuances as shown below. Those unusual phrases with △ or ×
may convey certain messages (negative, humorous, etc).
○うちのかみさん
×うちのおかみさん
×うちのおかみ
○隣のおかみさん
△隣のかみさん
×隣のおかみ
○料理屋のおかみ（女将）
△料理屋のおかみさん
×料理屋のかみさん
Shinya Suzuki
Brian Watson
> You and Jim and a little research have sufficiently convinced me that 人
> 生の伴侶 is old. My question is whether using 人生の伴侶 to refer to homosexual
> relationships and/or long-term unmarried relationships (like the way
> it was used in the OP) is new or not. "Partner" is likewise an old
> word, but partner referring to homosexual partners is fairly new in
> English.
I see nothing unusual about these parallel developments in the two
languages. BTW, "the way it was used in the OP", namely
（彼女の）人生の伴侶も（歌手だと） does not imply "homosexual and/or
unmarried relationships", as indicated by Jim.
Precisely, Shinya. I suppose the reason I found it worth commenting on to begin with is that the singer in question was describing the man (an operatic bass) to whom she is married. Yes, I wanted to use it to describe my own relationship, but she was using it right after she remarked on how she wanted to be like Mirella Freni and her (now deceased) husband, Nicolai Ghauriov, the famous basso profundo (and thanks to Wikipedia for helping me figure out how to romanize ガウリオヴ.
Mika Jz
(as used in "interviews", books, blogs, and between the 2 people in conversations defining their relationship/commitment)
In English, as I observe, choice of words is a big deal.
In Japanese, words are relative to its surroundings. Words can easily be "out of place."
"This is my significant other."
Okay, an enlightened person may actually say it that way; but it has to be said to "receptive listeners" in certain context. The Japanese statement carries far heavier message than the English pseudo-equivalent.
At least to me, 伴侶 is too BIG of a word for person-to-person level usage.
Many suggestions have been made in this thread already.
○（うちの）家内です。女房です。かみさんです。連れ合いです。などなど。
× 妻です。 （Somehow, it doesn't carry the "significant other" connotation to me.)
○（私の）だんなです。
It doesn't mean "my master" (yuck!) at least in modern usage.
Some women (in English) use the term "significant other" for 情の通った人, I think.
Therefore, だんな seems like a likely candidate for the "significant other."
When everything else that is shared in life is taken into account, as opposed to 情 only.
× 夫です。(Not appropriate for the same reason above.)
------------------
It looks like the term 伴侶 has been there for a long time, reserved for timeless partnerships that transcends gender, marriage and social constraints.
1a. 〔慰めてくれたり力づけてくれたりする〕つれ｡つれだってゆくもの｡
道づれ｡友だち｡仲間｡
─用例(田山花袋･宮本百合子)
1b. 《参考》特に､つれあい･配偶者の意でも用いる｡
─用例(宮本百合子･今日出海)
《類義語》同伴者｡同行者｡
◆芳子はこの人こそ一生の伴侶とその時直感した〔今日出海(明治三六-昭和五九)･天皇の帽子〕
Chris Moore
Mika Jz
Mika Jz
Steve Venti
> I was just curious if there's some connotation I'm missing.
I suspect the reason for that omission, as well as the reason that
there has been little mention of whom the speaker is addressing, is
that much of this discussion seems to be about one's preferred way of
referring to one's significant other. Therefore, 奥さん and other words
that are basically used to refer politely to someone else's wife are
outside the range of discussion.
Just my opinion, but for what it's worth.
--
Steve Venti
The source of all unhappiness is other people.
--Wally
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Fitsko
Thanks in particular to Mika and Shinya for your input. That pretty
much puts to rest my remaining doubts about 人生の伴侶.
Marc made mention of homosexual relationships among samurai. This had
occurred to me too, and it makes me wonder if any of those phrases now
survive in some form in modern Japanese. Or perhaps they simply used
euphemisms or purposely vague words (not too different from today)? I
have painfully little knowledge of this area of the language, though.
Last night I tried out 人生の伴侶 on my かみさん, and she said she liked it.
She also said she has encountered middle-aged men using うちのワイフ, and to
her it seemed like an affectation. This was my instinct as well, since
(as many have pointed out) Japanese already has a bazillion words for
this kind of thing.
Matthew Fitsko
Marc Adler
> ○うちのかみさん
> ×料理屋のかみさん
So this would be a case where adding -san is prohibited for in-group
members. Interesting.
Jim Lockhart
> > ○うちのかみさん
>
> > ×料理屋のかみさん
>
> So this would be a case where adding -san is prohibited for in-group
> members. Interesting.
No, homonyms.
料理屋は女将（おかみ）:おかみ、おかみさん
「うち」のは、かみさん。「他人」のなら、おかみさん。
I think.
--Jim Lockhart
Jim Lockhart
> And of course, I find oodles of hits for ボクの奥さん。 Ha.
> Still not sure if that is a good match for "significant other"....
> anyone?
I was just going to mention this. I'd say it's been five or ten years
since I noticed this usage: 僕の/ううちの「奥さん」. But never in formal
usages, and I don't recall* hearing it with わたくしの/俺の/わしの. I'm
not sure whether this is significant, but it might be.
* This does not mean "it is not heard" or "it never happens," it means
_I_ don't recall observing it and nothing more.
--Jim Lockhart
Matthew Fitsko
> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:31:02 -0500
>
> > > ○うちのかみさん
>
> > > ×料理屋のかみさん
>
> > So this would be a case where adding -san is prohibited for in-group
> > members. Interesting.
>
> No, homonyms.
>
> 料理屋は女将（おかみ）:おかみ、おかみさん
FWIW, according to Kojien 5th ed., 御上さん、女将さん、and 御内儀さん are all
interchangeable. But then, Kojien doesn't seem to mention using かみさん
for one's own wife.
> 「うち」のは、かみさん。「他人」のなら、おかみさん。
This is the rule I've always followed.
Matthew Fitsko
Mika Jz
> > ○うちのかみさん
>
> > ×料理屋のかみさん
>
> So this would be a case where adding -san is prohibited for in-group
> members. Interesting.
せっかく香さんが刑事コロンボの話を出されたのに
気がつきもせず、そのままミスってしまいました。
関西弁の「うちの嫁ハン」と一緒で、
もともとは奥さんの「いないところで」
奥さんに言及したり、旦那が
愚痴をこぼすニュアンスがありましたね。
（コロンボさんもそうでしたよね！）
significant otherの訳には不適切です。
身内なのに「さん付け」なのは、
たぶんおしりに敷かれて頭が上がらないことを
皮肉っているんじゃないかしらねえ．．．。
気心の知れた友達が相手ならいざ知らず、
奥さんが同席の場で
「うちのかみさんです。」
な－んてフォーマルに紹介しちゃうような
抜けた旦那は、
あとでこっぴどい目にあうはずですのでご用心。
（奥さんも言語オンチなら安泰かもしれせんが）
一方、「私の奥さん」はやっぱりいただけません。
確かに増えてはいますが、かみさんとは違い、
明らかなる誤用が蔓延してしまったようです。
あえてお使いになる場合は
言語オンチと見られる危険を覚悟の上でどうぞ。
とはいえ、言葉に関しては右寄り発言が多い私も
「愚妻」（愚息、愚兄、愚弟、愚妹）という謙譲語は
前から気に入らなかったわ、と勝手に思っています。
では。
清水美香 Mika Shimizu Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA
Shinya Suzuki
> I was just going to mention this. I'd say it's been five or ten years
> since I noticed this usage: 僕の/ううちの「奥さん」. But never in formal
> usages, and I don't recall* hearing it with わたくしの/俺の/わしの. I'm
> not sure whether this is significant, but it might be.
Interesting. My interpretation of your perceptive observation is that in
the level of politeness 奥さん is about the same as 僕の/うちの, but
lower than わたくしの and higher than 俺の/わしの. That's why the
unmatched combinations sound odd.
Shinya Suzuki
Jim Lockhart
Thanks for this.
I thought it might have to do with the ages of the speakers, but your
explanation seems much more apt. This is definitely one area of Japanese
where I still have a weakness even after all these years: keeping
register straight.
--Jim Lockhart
Mika Jz
I still think it's natural, if unconventional, to use かみさん casually.
I hope, though, that the wives retain the sense to 聞きとがめる when
it's directed at her.
Perhaps it's the higher testosterone level in 俺の/わしの, compared to
僕の/うちの, that keeps the "once tongue-in-cheek/now confused by some"
misuse of MY 奥さん at bay.
Jim Lockhart
> Keeping register straight gets tricky for me, too (^^;)
In English or Japanese? <G>
If you say "yes," I'll say "me too!"
--Jim Lockhart
Steve Venti
> Perhaps it's the higher testosterone level in 俺の/わしの,
Funny, but I don't equate わし with higher testosterone because where I
lived, it was generally used only by men in their 60s and 70s or by my
mother-in-law, who uses わしら to refer to herself and my father-in-law.
Actually, my first reaction to even the suggestion of 「ワシの奥さん」 was,
それを言うなら、「ワシの細君」やろうが. (笑)
As Jim has pointed out, NSJ generally do not mismatch the register, so
you might not hear those expressions in conversation, but they do show
up on the Web, presumably as attempts at humor, although sometimes I
wonder . . .
Mika Jz
Why, YES they am; English and Japanese!
Register Out the Windowly Yours,
Marc Adler
> 一方、「私の奥さん」はやっぱりいただけません。
> 確かに増えてはいますが、かみさんとは違い、
> 明らかなる誤用が蔓延してしまったようです。
It's not just men who are making these mistakes, apparently.
http://hobby.nikkei.co.jp/shogi/shinobu/
First sentence, third paragraph:
"旦那さんは茨城県の水戸放送局勤務、私は大阪なのでとりあえずは別居婚とい
う形を取ることにした。"
Steve Venti
> It's not just men who are making these mistakes, apparently.
> "旦那さんは茨城県の水戸放送局勤務、私は大阪なのでとりあえずは別居婚とい
> う形を取ることにした。"
And your point is that a woman calling her own husband danna-san is as
mistaken as a husband calling his own wife oku-san?
Marc Adler
> And your point is that a woman calling her own husband danna-san is as
> mistaken as a husband calling his own wife oku-san?
Actually, I'm a descriptivist when it comes to these things, so if
native speakers are using it among themselves, I wdn't say it's
"mistaken." Language change is a fact of life. Of course, it does break
the rule we learn in our Japanese textbooks about how to refer to
in-group people when talking to out-group people.
The reason I posted the link was because the discussion until now hadn't
mentioned the other possibility - women calling their husband 旦那さん -
and also because it was in a context far more formal (newspaper article)
than the other examples, which had been in informal conversation.
Steve Venti
> The reason I posted the link was because the discussion until now hadn't
> mentioned the other possibility - women calling their husband 旦那さん -
> and also because it was in a context far more formal (newspaper article)
> than the other examples, which had been in informal conversation.
Not being a native speaker of Japanese, I will reserve comment about
the usage itself. I do think, however, that the usage 旦那さん would be
better considered analogous to かみさん. Just off the cuff, I would say
that a woman referring to her own husband as 主人さん would sound roughly
analogous to a man referring to his own wife as 奥さん.
Adam
when talking to an out-member? Whether you say 旦那 or not and whether
this equates to かみ or not is secondary, I should think, and also
subjective.
Adam
Marc Adler
> Not being a native speaker of Japanese, I will reserve comment about
> the usage itself. I do think, however, that the usage 旦那さん would be
> better considered analogous to かみさん. Just off the cuff, I would say
> that a woman referring to her own husband as 主人さん would sound roughly
> analogous to a man referring to his own wife as 奥さん.
Interesting. I've never heard 主人さん. In fact, I've never heard
anything other than 主人 or 旦那 in reference to one's own husband. I
have the feeling that rule-violating 奥さん is probably more common than
rule-violating 旦那さん, but I'm working from a limited sample (six
years in Japan ending seven years ago), so my conclusions are iffy at best.
Mari Hodges
relationship as well as their living arrangements. Perhaps that is why she
puts さん。
Mari Hodges
Fred Uleman
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Fred Uleman
Steve Venti
> Her putting さん makes it sound to me as if there is some "distance" in the
> relationship as well as their living arrangements. Perhaps that is why she
> puts さん。
Maybe, but what piqued my interest about this term enough to comment
in the first place was this from Daijirin:
〔「だんな様」の形はきわめて敬意の高い言い方。「だんな」単独では敬意を伴わず，
むしろぞんざいな言い方〕
Mika Jz
http://hobby.nikkei.co.jp/shogi/shinobu/
I think it's a good example showing us how our language is changing, reflecting the changes in the way we relate to each other.
The author's use of 旦那さん, along with her message of still getting used to the notion of being married, tell us that she is not placing herself within the traditional framework.
Try replacing 旦那さんwith the more conventional 主人:
旦那さんは茨城県の水戸放送局勤務、私は大阪なので
主人は茨城県の水戸放送局勤務、私は大阪 なので
とりあえずは別居婚という形を取ることにした。
With 主人, the distance between her and her new husband shrinks exponentially, and we see her placed, or rooted, "on the inside" with him. There's nothing wrong with that, but somehow we get a strange mismatch feeling going into the latter half of the sentence.
旦那さん, on the other hand, places some distance between them, as Mari observed.
It sits rather well now, doesn't it?
I'd speculate she'd use 旦那さん again if she happens to refer to him in a speech in front of "a group of strangers", placing herself in the sea of tapioca, but I wonder if she would use it when she speaks to people she personally knows and respects, when she feels the need to acknowledge her own position in relation to them. But then again, that might depend on her audience (whom she is speaking to).
By the way, plenty of うちのダンナ様 shows up as well, and I wonder if it has anything to do with the way we write nowadays: to the internet audience "at large".
Kaleidoscopically Yours,
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Mika Jz" <mjz-...@comcast.net>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2007年7月18日 6:58
件名 : RE: OT: learned something new...
とりあえずは別居婚という形を取ることにした。
Hmmm.
And how does this related to the slightly 喧嘩 type use where a husband
calls (i.e., speaks to her directly) using the word 奥さん, or the wife says
旦那 to the husband?
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Mika Jz
> Hmmm.
>
> And how does this related to the slightly 喧嘩 type use where
> a husband
> calls (i.e., speaks to her directly) using the word 奥さん,
> or the wife says
> 旦那 to the husband?
Short answer: it has nothing to do with it.
Long answer, in short: pass.
Mika Jz
in the way I see it. I wouldn't consider かみさん to be interchangeable
with 奥さん (except for the very last one), or 旦那さん, but I am
subjective. 新語 may spread across age boundaries, and かみさん as
introduced by コロンボ may qualify as one. By "age" I mean 精神年齢なら
ぬ国語年齢, if there's such a thing.
Have fun : )
同僚：「もう一軒、はしごするか？」
夫：「それが、かみさんに早く帰ってこいっていわれちまって。」
同僚：「いいじゃないか、ちょっとぐらい。」
夫：「いやあ、かみさんがうるさいから。」
（着メロがなる）
夫：「はーい○○ちゃん、いま駅なの。もうすぐ帰るよ。」
同僚：「かみさんのこと、○○ちゃん、なんて呼んでるの？」
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
友人：「大きな荷物だな、何なんだ。」
夫：「ケーキ。かみさんに買って来いって言われたの。」
友人：「こきつかわれてるな、お前。」
夫：「もう、人使いが荒くってさー。」
（家に帰って）
夫：「○○ちゃん、ただいま。」
妻：「ちゃんと買ってきてくれた？」
夫：「はーい。」（すなおに手渡す）
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
同僚：「あれ、こんなとこで何してるの？」
夫：「かみさんに待たされてるの。」
妻：（やって来て）「あら、こちらどなた？」
夫：「同僚の△△だよ。今出くわしたの。」
同僚：「どうも。」
妻：「こんにちは。じゃ、もう行きましょうか。」
夫：「この通り、いっつもかみさんのペースでさ。」
妻：「あら、何か言った？」
夫：「いえ別に。」
同僚：「じゃ、また。」
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
会社の人にむかって：
50代の夫：「家内です。」
50代の妻：「よろしく。」
50代の夫：「女房です。」
50代の妻：「よろしく。」
50代の夫：「うちのです。」
50代の妻：「よろしく。」
50代の夫にとって、「かみさん」は
妻のいないところでは使うとしても、
妻を人に紹介するボキャブラリーとしては
存在していない。
妻はかみさん呼ばわりされても、
寛容に聞き流してやることもある。ただし
人に紹介されるときのボキャブラリーとしては
認めていない。
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
会社の人にむかって：
40代の夫：「うちのかみさんです．．．」
40代の妻： （だまって夫を小突く）
40代の夫：「じゃなかった、女房です。」
40代の妻：「よろしく。」
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
30代の夫：「かみさんです。」
30代の妻： （夫を小突き、小声で）
『人の前で、かみさんはないでしょ。』
30代の夫：「え？うちの、えーっと、あれです。これが。」
30代の妻：「よろしくー。（お愛想でカバー）」
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
20代の夫：「かみさんです。」（全然気付いていない）
20代の妻：「ちわー。」（全然気付いていない）
20代の夫：「奥さんです。」
（相手に怪訝な顔をされるが、なぜなのかわからない）
20代の妻：「ちわー。」（さもうれしげに）
Mika Jz
Have fun : )
James Sparks
> My last message on this thread baked on my Outlook, and Gmail, but it
> arrived fine in the GG archive:
> http://tinyurl.com/yoxlko
I propose that we make it a policy on this list to include the full URL
additionally when we use a tinyurl. As has been pointed out here
before, these tinyurl's expire after a time, and someone searching the
archives in the future won't be able to use them. (Yes, regular URL's
can become invalid, but that's unavoidable.)
Mika-san,
Thanks for taking time to post your examples, which I found very
interesting and useful.
James Sparks