Advice on vendor management
Max Tung
I work in the HR department of a localization provider and my mainly
job is the vendor management for Asian languages.
I have joined this company for half an year, we still don’t have
enough freelancer translators from English to Japanese and vice versa,
therefore we have to refuse some projects sometimes. So my supervisor
asks me to increase the number of freelance translators and optimize
the database.
The problem is that I know little about Japanese. So could anyone tell
me some websites in English on which I can post our position vacancy?
Or could anyone give me some other advice?
Thanks.
Michael Hendry
> The problem is that I know little about Japanese. So could anyone tell
> me some websites in English on which I can post our position vacancy?
> Or could anyone give me some other advice?
This mailing list has 1435 subscribers and you are already a subscriber so
why not post your ad here?
Michael Hendry, in Newcastle Australia
William Taylor
> The problem is that I know little about Japanese. So could anyone tell
> me some websites in English on which I can post our position vacancy?
> Or could anyone give me some other advice?
You can post your position here. But please note that translators on
this list are generally not receptive to rates that are too low.
A reasonable rate is around 10 yen per Japanese character.
Regards,
William Taylor
Jim Lockhart
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:36:35 -0800 (PST)
William Taylor wrote:
> A reasonable rate is around 10 yen per Japanese character.
For what kind of work? I'm not saying that I disagree, but I know of
fields where this is high and others where it is low.
That said, I agree that this list is a good place to start looking when
you need translators. It is also a good resource in this respect because
by observing how translators contribute can give you insights into how
good they are in certain areas, what kind of English they write, and how
easy they might be to work with, as well as on their concerns (knowing
which can also be beneficial for building long-term relationships).
HTH,
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo, JPN
Max Tung
Sometimes we can offer a rate around 10 yen per Japanese character,
but many more times we can not offer that rate even much lower than
that.
I know good rates can attract more freelancers especially more
excellent ones, I may work easily if we offer much higher. However I
understand that my company must strive to survive, the boss must
consider the running expenses.
Frankly speaking, many clients don’t know much about how to judge
translation quality and many agencies are accepting lower rates to get
projects. These days the clients ask for more discounts in excuse of
recession. This industry isn’t well development and we are in the same
boat to some degree.
So maybe this group isn’t suitable for my post, could someone let me
know some other websites?
Thanks in advance.
Jim Lockhart
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 01:50:46 -0800 (PST)
Max Tung wrote:
> I know good rates can attract more freelancers especially more
> excellent ones, I may work easily if we offer much higher. However I
> understand that my company must strive to survive, the boss must
> consider the running expenses.
When you can't offer high rates, sometimes you have to ask what you can
offer translators that will make up (or help make up) for the difference.
Of course, what this is will depend on the translator.
> Frankly speaking, many clients don’t know much about how to judge
> translation quality and many agencies are accepting lower rates to get
> projects. These days the clients ask for more discounts in excuse of
> recession. This industry isn’t well development and we are in the same
> boat to some degree.
This has always been true to some extent, though I imagine the current
economic situation is going to make things worse for a while. Clients
learn about translation quality when they need to--i.e., when the
affects of poor translation start to bite; one problem is that not all
client get into that situation. And for many clients, there is a level
of translation that is "good enough," and that's all they will be
willing to pay for. In those instances, you can only offer them that
level of translation, and you need only translators who deliver at that
level.
> So maybe this group isn’t suitable for my post, could someone let me
> know some other websites?
I can't recommend other Web sites because I don't know any; but I would
recommend giving Honyaku a try: Some people here may be able to meet
your needs, and you theirs as well. The only way to find out is to give
it a try.
Good luck,
TracyMF
This is one place to access many Japanese <> English translators but
there are also organizations such as the ATA (www.ata-net.org).
Best of luck.
Tracy Miller
J to E Translator
Joji Matsuo
As Michael Hendry pointed out, there are 1435 subscribers on this list. Not
ALL of them consider 10 yen their least acceptable rate.
Give it a shot!
Joji
Karen Sandness
high rates.
I have a couple of clients from whom I accept lower than normal rates,
but only because they follow the unusual practice of paying almost
immediately upon receipt of the work.
Suggestion droppingly yours,
Karen Sandness
Max Tung
them carefully just now.
For establishing a good relationship with freelancers, I usually find
time to look through threads on Proz, translatorscafe and so on. It is
a good way feeling from their views. I would also like you to see how
I work.
My work process is: first choose the prospective candidates according
to their resumes, then negotiate with the candidates about payment
terms, rates and any others concerned, afterwards send the candidates
a test with his language pair, and then if he passes the test, input
his information to our database and inform the PM department, in the
end, the PMs will assign jobs to him directly.
As you can see, there are 2 obstacles in this process, one is that
they can not accept our rates and payment terms; another is that they
refuse to take a test. I learned much about the two situations on Proz
etc. and I can understand their position, however as an employee, I
must abide by the rules of our company. Take the test for example, I
heard that we didn’t need a test result about 5 years ago, but we were
once bitten by one who had polished resume and impressive examples in
an important project. Of course we also made a mistake in that case,
and from then on, the boss demanded a test result whatever experiences
the freelancers had.
I always rack my brains for better strategy, no one yet. Maybe you
have some feasible ideas.
Besides, I received some emails from candidates in my email box
liuwei...@126.come which is my personal email address and I am not
allowed to contact freelancers with it. Sorry!
Ginstrom IT Solutions (GITS)
> of our company. Take the test for example, I heard that we
> didn't need a test result about 5 years ago, but we were once
> bitten by one who had polished resume and impressive examples
> in an important project. Of course we also made a mistake in
> that case, and from then on, the boss demanded a test result
> whatever experiences the freelancers had.
>
> I always rack my brains for better strategy, no one yet.
> Maybe you have some feasible ideas.
One solution is to pay for a small job with good lead time, and use that as
the test. If the translator "fails," you redo it and you're out a few
dollars for the translation. Probably cheaper than the opportunity cost of
losing potential translators over unpaid trials.
In the case you mentioned, your company made the huge but common mistake of
trusting a new translator with a very important job. Even if the translator
passes your test, I would be wary about trusting them with an important job
right away, unless you have a very good safety net (quality control and
enough time to completely redo the translation if necessary).
This is also why once you get good translators, you've got to do some work
to keep them. The cost of replacing them will be very high.
Regards,
Ryan
--
Ryan Ginstrom
trans...@ginstrom.com
http://ginstrom.com/
Jean-Christophe Helary
On jeudi 11 déc. 08, at 11:36, Max Tung wrote:
> Besides, I received some emails from candidates in my email box
> liuwei...@126.come which is my personal email address and I am not
> allowed to contact freelancers with it.
Contact them from your work mail then...
Jean-Christophe Helary
------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com/
sls
> I [...]
> heard that we didn’t need a test result about 5 years ago, but we were
> once bitten by one who had polished resume and impressive examples in
> an important project. Of course we also made a mistake in that case,
> and from then on, the boss demanded a test result whatever experiences
> the freelancers had.
>
> I always rack my brains for better strategy, no one yet. Maybe you
> have some feasible ideas.
Hi,
Ryan's suggestion sounds very good to me - it allows you to start new
relationships with translators in an amicable manner and saves you a lot
of time and effort, and the risk you take in return is rather small.
> Besides, I received some emails from candidates in my email box
> liuwei...@126.come which is my personal email address and I am not
> allowed to contact freelancers with it. Sorry!
Sounds like you want to let list other subscribers know that they should
not contact you via the address you use for posting to this list. You
could use the automatic signature function of your e-mail software and
have it place a comment like, for example, "for work related
correspondence, please use the following address:" in the signature
text, followed by your work address... :-)
Regards: Hendrik
--
--------------------------------------
Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/
Max Tung
Thanks for your suggestion, I have changed my personal email to my
work emai, anyone who likes to chat with me please kindly send your
message to reso...@gvlocalization.com. I live in China and I like
poems, art, history and life science. Even though we may not be
partners, we can be friends.
I will discuss with my colleagues about the small paid job method
although I think it is difficult to change this rule. I will explain
it in detail when I have quiet time.
Warm regards from Shenzhen!
Max Tung
Harry Yasumura
Hello All,
Max represents a company called Golden View (China) Technologies Inc. http://www.gvlocalization.com.
http://www.honyakuhome.org/node/263 ("a Public utilities illustration", to be honest I really do know what that means)
This job was also posted at several other websites. In fact, almost every month they post an ad on several websites like proz, translatorcafe, translatorbase, job-ch, honyakuhome etc for J-E and E-J translators. I haven't seen any decent agency which is perennially in search of translators. I think they have not been able to build strong relationship with translators. Too much of "Use & Throw" which has obviously backfired.
> Sometimes we can offer a rate around 10 yen per Japanese character, but many more times we can not offer that rate even much lower than that.
I doubt if you are getting 10 yen / character even from your customers. I will be very happy if you prove me wrong by posting few jobs on this forum offering 10 yen / character. Or for that matter, post whatever rates you want to offer with payment terms etc. I am really eager to see your actual job offers. I have been contacted by a few Chinese translation agencies in the past with offers like 0.03 - 0.06 $ / english word!!!
> So maybe this group isnt suitable for my post, could someone let me know some other websites?
If your company wants to genuinely do business, this group is definitely one of the best places for you to find good translators for long term relationship. As far as other websites are concerned, I think you have exhausted almost all the options available.
Fred Uleman
1. They're unable to tell good translation from crap, so they only pay for crap.
BUT if that's the case, why work for them? No matter how good a job you do, they're going to assume it's crap and pay accordingly. And since they think all translation is the same, the only way to compete -- the only way to get their business -- is on price. This is a sucker's game.
2. They're able to tell good translation from crap, and they know ours is crap.
BUT if that's the case, you need to do a better job. You need to get out of the crap business and get into the translation business.
"But," you say, "we can't afford to do a good job because they're paying for crap?" So start doing a good job anyway and pitch to people who can tell the difference and who are willing to pay a little more for a quality product. The crappy rates = crappy work equation is unlikely to be broken on the rates side. People are unlikely to pay top-grade rates for garbage. Which means you have to break it on your side -- on the work quality side.
Unless you're happy turning out crap and getting crappy rates for it, there's no excuse for staying in that position.
--
Fred Uleman
Jim Lockhart
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:32:06 +0900
Fred Uleman wrote:
> "But," you say, "we can't afford to do a good job because they're paying for
> crap?" So start doing a good job anyway and pitch to people who can tell the
> difference and who are willing to pay a little more for a quality product.
> The crappy rates = crappy work equation is unlikely to be broken on the
> rates side. People are unlikely to pay top-grade rates for garbage. Which
> means you have to break it on your side -- on the work quality side.
OK, I'll buy this.
But what should those of us do who do quality work but are facing
pressure to lower our rates? My old formula was too tell them: If you go
where the rates are lower, you will get what you pay for. And in the
past, sometimes I'd see customers do just that, and come back a few
months or a year later. But more recently, that's been happening less:
They've been happy with the crap, or say there's nothing they can do
because they can't get more budget themselves. And with all the scare
mongering about the current economic situation, some translators seem to
be so spooked that they more concerned about getting work than how well
in will pay.
Jean-Christophe Helary
On jeudi 11 déc. 08, at 23:56, Jim Lockhart wrote:
> But what should those of us do who do quality work but are facing
> pressure to lower our rates?
Move to a place where the rent is cheaper ?
Fred Uleman
But what should those of us do who do quality work but are facing
pressure to lower our rates?
I do not have a single definitive answer. But I suspect part of the answer is to start stealing better-paying clients from other translators. Apologies to the people who already have those clients, but it's a jungle out there.
Another part of the answer is to remember that quality itself is not the issue. Even though we talk about quality, what we are really selling is _perceived quality_. (Which is why is is a losing game to try to sell to people who cannot perceive it.) Which means making more of an effort not just to ensure you are doing quality work but to ensure your clients know it.
This might take the form of insightful translator's notes. It might take the form of cleaner presentations. It might take the form of discussing all of these things in the language the client is more comfortable with. It might take the form of a newsletter for clients (which newsletter would include not just observations about translation but also testimonials). It might even be a non-translation job that would give you added cachet. There are all kinds of possibilities. (Yes, entertaining clients used to be one of them.) Including many that I have not thought of. The trick is to figure out what will appeal to your clients -- what will differentiate you from the run-of-the-mill people the client might otherwise be tempted to use.
Fred Uleman @ looking forward to other people's answers to Jim's question.
Adam Rice
> But what should those of us do who do quality work but are facing
> pressure to lower our rates? My old formula was too tell them: If
> you go
> where the rates are lower, you will get what you pay for. And in the
> past, sometimes I'd see customers do just that, and come back a few
> months or a year later. But more recently, that's been happening less:
> They've been happy with the crap, or say there's nothing they can do
> because they can't get more budget themselves.
I became a translator shortly before Japan's bubble burst, so I've
seen this pressure pretty much my whole career. I don't claim to have
the answer, and I don't claim to be a good salesman (I'd be busier if
I were), but here is an approach one might try with a client
complaining about a reduced translation budget: warn of the downward
spiral.
Assume that your client has previously paid well for top-quality
translations, but because of lean times, is now poor-mouthing you and
saying its translation budget has been cut in half. You get them to
agree that with translations (as with almost everything else) you get
what you pay for. You then point out that if they lower their
translation quality, they are *ratcheting down* their maximum
potential for success. And after a quarter of two of even worse-than-
expected results, they'll have to cut their translation budget again,
further ratcheting down their potential.
They might say they'd start paying full rates again once things pick
up (they might even mean it). You would counter that things will not
return to where they once were because they are downgrading their
business.
Obviously, quality translations are not the key to business success
for every widget-maker, but they are a factor. Just yesterday I was
doing research for a job, and I found an English product manual from a
Japanese company. Big, bold lettering on its cover read "Blushless DC
Motor." I would argue that hard times are the worst time to risk the
customer derision and mistrust that gaffes like this provoke.
Adam Rice :: Austin TX USA :: adam...@8stars.org :: http://8stars.org
Warren Smith
Ginstrom IT Solutions (GITS)
> This might take the form of insightful translator's
> notes. It might take the form of cleaner presentations. It
> might take the form of discussing all of these things in the
> language the client is more comfortable with. It might take
> the form of a newsletter for clients (which newsletter would
> include not just observations about translation but also
> testimonials). It might even be a non-translation job that
> would give you added cachet. There are all kinds of
> possibilities. (Yes, entertaining clients used to be one of
As strange as it may sound, I think that writing a blog helps with this.
Since I started blogging a bit over a year ago, about half of my new clients
have told me that they read my blog. This apparently was a good thing,
because they sent me work. <g> One of them has since turned into my single
best client.
I think that some of these requests for (to me) ridiculously low rates come
from what I term the "China Frenzy." Companies move operations to China, and
are able to hire workers for a fifth or less what they were paying in Japan.
They can also find Japanese-to-English translation for one yen per word, if
not in China then in India. Of course, the quality is garbage, but companies
get bitten by the cheap bug. They want in on this imaginary pool of ultra
cheap, talented translators. What they eventually realize (if they stay in
business) is that you can't pull some kid out of a Chinese village and set
him to translating. Well, you can, but the results may vary. <g>
Another factor is opportunism. I think some companies are taking advantage
of worries about the economy to try to force translators to lower their
rates. Kind of a game of economic chicken.
A final factor is that translators in Japan are a lot more expensive now,
thanks to the strong yen and weak dollar. This is good news for the
translators in America, but I don't begrudge them this, because back in the
90s translators in Japan benefitted from the opposite trend.
Matt Stanton
> clients. (But make sure that your quality is better than that of the
> cut-rate translators!)
>
> Warren
and drop the quality level accordingly? And what does "make sure that
your quality is better than that of the cut-rate translators" really
mean anyway? The "cut-rate translators" may actually be far more
competent, and earn more per hour, than the "high-rate translators."
I think a lot of translators fail to understand the fundamentals of
the business they're in:
1. You are selling a product - not a service.
2. The product is the translated document - not you.
Interpretation is a service. Translation is not. With interpretation,
you are paid by the hour or by the day, so I can understand
experienced, competent interpreters demanding high rates, because
higher rates = higher pay. But if you're a translator, you determine
your own level of pay. You decide what you are worth.
Too many translators take character or word rates personally. If they
are offered a low rate, they feel insulted, that their experience,
qualifications, ability, etc. are not being recognized. They whinge
and whine and waste hours chasing clients that will pay them the rates
that they feel they deserve. They have this fixed idea about what
constitutes a good translation and adamantly refuse to offer anything
less. They can only work at one pace. It's comical, really, because
what they earn is up to them. I produce both top-notch translations
(at high rates) and barely passable ones (at low rates), but I get
paid the same regardless. Most of the work I do is at the low-end of
the rate scale, but I get paid very well and all my clients are happy.
Matt
Edward Lipsett /t
> I produce both top-notch translations
> (at high rates) and barely passable ones (at low rates)
I would hate to meet a doctor, for example, who did pro bono work under that
philosophy...
----------
Edward Lipsett, Intercom, Ltd.
translation€@intercomltd.com
Publishing: http://www.kurodahan.com
Translation & layout: http://www.intercomltd.com
Jean-Christophe Helary
On vendredi 12 déc. 08, at 09:40, Matt Stanton wrote:
> Why waste time finding new clients when you can just take a rate cut
> and drop the quality level accordingly?
How would you practically do that ? Not use the spellchecker before
delivering ? Drop a few words here and there ?
It seems to me "dropping the quality level" takes more energy than
_keeping_ the quality level (or even raising it).
So, what you propose is: waste energy on dropping consciously the
level to be less paid, or spend energy to find new clients to be more
paid...
In the end, your product will not be bought because you sell crap,
even cheap crap.
Joji Matsuo
Interesting take on the production line of a translator.
If it works for you and your customers, what more to say?
A question though: how do you know your low rate work is really barely
passable? IOW, what is your mechanism for producing top-notch product and
low-end product?
Personally, I cannot differentiate. I do the same thing for every job,
regardless of what I'm paid.
That is, I read the source document, do the research (if required), draft up
a rough translation based on memory, go back to the original, edit, let it
sit, proofread it, and send it out the door. It's a cyclic approach that
follows the same process every time with repeated loops through the rough
and final translation process until satisfied. Not any one of those
processes can be ignored.
Do you have a way to spend less of your attention span on any of the
processes you peform? Or do you just skip proofreading as a single process
and do it as you go along?
Joji
S Zaveloff
> on 08/12/12 9:40, Matt Stanton wrote:
>
>> I produce both top-notch translations
>> (at high rates) and barely passable ones (at low rates)
>
> I would hate to meet a doctor, for example, who did pro bono work under that
> philosophy...
How do you produce a "barely passable" translation? I find it difficult
to do poor work. I don't know, maybe I just take pride in what I do.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven H. Zaveloff gua...@gmail.com
P.O. Box 200203 Tel: (512)219-7142
Austin, Texas 78720-0203 Fax: (512)233-2770
http://members.capmac.org/~stevenzaveloff/
Not by harming life does one become noble.
One is termed noble for being gentle to all living things.
-Dhammapada
Matt Stanton
service, not a product. If he were paid per consultation (i.e.
provides a product), I would think he would try to do more
consultations per hour the lower the rate for each one.
Matt
On Dec 12, 9:44 am, Edward Lipsett /t <translat...@intercomltd.com>
wrote:
Michael Hendry
> A doctor doing pro bono work is paid by the hour. He provides a
> service, not a product.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_product_and_a_service
Translators are the battery installers, not the batteries. We provide a
service (translation) that produces a product (translated document).
Like most others here, I take pride in what I do regardless of my income on
that particular job. Sure I can leave out the checking process, but I won't.
Michael Hendry, in Newcastle Australia
Alan Siegrist
> A doctor doing pro bono work is paid by the hour.
If I am not mistaken, "pro bono" work is done at no cost (for free) so
someone doing pro bono work is not paid at all.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
canuck....@gmail.com
unpaid legal counsel.
-------------------------------------------------
pro bono (Pro bono publico), Latin, for the good of the public adjective
Referring to a non-reimbursed service - health care, legal advice by an
attorney to those who cannot afford to pay professional fees.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Pro+Bono
-------------------------------------------------
- Dan in Yokohama
-----------------------
Dan Burgess
canuck....@gmail.com
Matt Stanton
they feel threatened by low rates. If you work at low rates, you skip
steps. This is obvious. If you haven't got the balls to do it, then
fair enough, just stay out of this segment of the market. At the
lowest rates, your first draft (and a hurriedly produced draft at
that) is the final translation - warts and all. As long as you explain
to the client that this is the situation, I don't see the problem.
You've accommodated the client as best you can. If they don't like the
quality, they can pay you a higher rate or try and find someone of
equal ability who is willing to work for less per hour.
"Translators are the battery installers, not the batteries. We provide
a
service (translation) that produces a product (translated document)."
and sell a product - the translated document. There is no service
involved. The client does the installation - printing and distributing
copies of the document, uploading it to its web server, etc.
Matt
On Dec 12, 10:14 am, "canuck.in.ja...@gmail.com"
> Last time I heard, "pro bono" meant "for free" usually in reference to
> unpaid legal counsel.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> pro bono (Pro bono publico), Latin, for the good of the public adjective
> Referring to a non-reimbursed service - health care, legal advice by an
>
> - Dan in Yokohama
>
> -----------------------
> Dan Burgess
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:03:48 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
> Matt Stanton <mattst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A doctor doing pro bono work is paid by the hour. He provides a
> > service, not a product. If he were paid per consultation (i.e.
> > provides a product), I would think he would try to do more
> > consultations per hour the lower the rate for each one.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Fred Uleman
Translators are the battery manufacturers and vendors. We produce
and sell a product - the translated document. There is no service
involved.
Which leads me to ask: So how do you make it a service?
How do you move from being a translator to being a communication facilitator or a language consultant, for example?
--
Fred Uleman
Edward Lipsett /t
> If you haven't got the balls to do it, then
> fair enough, just stay out of this segment of the market.
Sorry, Matt, but I can't agree with you. If your only criterion is to take
work at any price, and adjust your quality downwards as needed to match the
price, eventually you will be working at the same rates as China and India,
but living (I assume) in a high-budget nation like Japan or the US.
I believe that translation is a profession that demands skill, and
standards. Different people have different positions on just what skill
levels or standards are appropriate, but removing translation from the realm
of a professional service and reducing it to a commodity goes against the
stance of every professional society in the world.
It's not a question of balls, it's a recognition that a professional may
elect to provide his service pro bono (please look up the definition) for a
worthy cause, but normally demands reasonable recompense for the time,
effort and capital expended in achieving the skills needed as a
professional. Professional jobs demand a considerable investment, and later
charge to recover that investment. Society pays it because it recognizes the
fact that unless the investment is repaid, nobody will enter that
profession anymore...
Few people begrudge physicians their income once they look at how many years
they spend in school and what it costs them to do it.
Jean-Christophe Helary
On vendredi 12 déc. 08, at 10:40, Matt Stanton wrote:
> If you haven't got the balls to do it
I see that having a teaching position that provides you with a stable
income can greatly contribute to "having balls" when it come to
delivering crap translations.
Also, I'm worried for you hourly income. If you spend so much time
online to reply to obvious stuff, either you don't have much to do and
rely on your teaching, or you only accept higher rates.
In both cases, your advice is really "go fetch the low rates, I keep
the high ones for myself".
Matt Stanton
As I have said in other threads, I cannot work at any rate. If the
rate is so low that I would be unable to produce what I consider to be
a bare minimum of quality and still maintain my hourly rate, I will
turn it down. And yes, I have seen rates that I would be unwilling to
work for.
The threat from China/India is real, but there's nothing I can do
about it, so I just try to behave in a way that I would like
translators to behave if I was a client. I think offering clients a
range of quality levels at a range of prices is going to stand me in
better stead than offering only one level of quality at one price.
When a client asks me what my rates are, I say, "How much do you want
to pay?" "What kind of quality level do you need?" In my experience
most clients prefer to be offered a choice.
Matt
On Dec 12, 10:49 am, Edward Lipsett /t <translat...@intercomltd.com>
wrote:
Matt Stanton
My teaching position is part-time and provides 37.5% of my annual
income. They have a singing contest at the school today, so I'm at
home. And as long as I translate for 3 hours 15 minutes per day, I
meet my annual income target (which has been enough to enable me to
buy my house with cash), so plenty of time for goofing off today.
Matt
On Dec 12, 11:06 am, Jean-Christophe Helary <fus...@mx6.tiki.ne.jp>
wrote:
Jim Lockhart
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:44:43 +0900
Edward Lipsett /t wrote:
> > I produce both top-notch translations
> > (at high rates) and barely passable ones (at low rates)
>
> I would hate to meet a doctor, for example, who did pro bono work under that
> philosophy...
I was thinking the same thing, but if Matt's clients are happy...
Personally, I can only do one kind of work. It would be hard for me to
take Matt's approach. I can do quick-and-dirty when I have to, but I
avoid it because it bothers me. And then there's always the issues of
hurting your own reputation.
Matt Stanton
they all check my translations line by line after I've submitted them.
So if there are omissions or mistranslations, these come back to me
(unless they're very minor). So if I speeded up to the point where I
was submitting translations with numerous omissions and obvious
mistakes, I would know about it.
Matt
Jim Lockhart
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:45:07 -0500
Warren Smith wrote:
> My advice -- hold the line on your rates, even if it means finding new
> clients. (But make sure that your quality is better than that of the
> cut-rate translators!)
I agree on the rates part, but how do you ensure that your own quality
is better than that of the cut-raters--or any of your other competitors,
for that matter?
Jim Lockhart
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:19:18 -0800 (PST)
Matt Stanton wrote:
> I think offering clients a
> range of quality levels at a range of prices is going to stand me in
> better stead than offering only one level of quality at one price.
> When a client asks me what my rates are, I say, "How much do you want
> to pay?" "What kind of quality level do you need?" In my experience
> most clients prefer to be offered a choice.
I think this is reasonable enough, and as a company we do the same when
people ask for our price list--we call it 松竹梅 and ask them which
"course" best suits their needs. But given the choice, people usually
choose the one in the middle, which is perfect for us.
As Matt says above, I think offering different levels of quality is OK
so long as customers know about them and have made a conscious choice.
That said, I think offering this kind of choice would be difficult for
most owner-proprieter translators and freelancers, because--as Joji
Matsuo has aptly described--many people can do only their best. The
notion of taking shortcuts is alien to them, or at least they would feel
that they were acting unethically or immorally if they didn't do their
best.
The way we offer different levels of quality is in the checking and
rewriting/post-translation editing process, or with speed of turnaround.
Alfred S Chamass
> 1. You are selling a product - not a service.
> 2. The product is the translated document - not you.
>
>
> Matt
>
Tell this to the guys who have spent six years to graduate from
"L'Institut national des langues et civilisations orientales
(INALCO)", known as "Langues O", and who may have paid over at least
the equivalent of 10 million Yen to earn their doctorate in the hope
of being recognized as an official translator of the French
government or those professional translators who spent years studying
at a an elit university like MIT, Oxford, or an elite university in
whichever country. Of course, they are the elites of the profession,
However, I am sure that many people on this list, who have spent a lot
of money to earn a degree or worked long hours as an apprentice, with
sore eyes and fingers from the endless typing, at miserable wages in
the hope of becoming a freelance professional will obviously disagree
with you.
You must factor in your investment and all those years spent on
learning what you are doing now as a professional into your rates.
Otherwise one is better of flipping burgers.
In my case I would earn a fortune flipping burgers at a beautiful
beach of a luxury hotel for the super-rich from all over the world
since I can speak fluently five languages.
Regards
--
Alfred Salib Chamass@ flipping burgers for his dinner.
scha...@gmail.com
Matt Stanton
> learning what you are doing now as a professional into your rates.
>
> Otherwise one is better of flipping burgers.
> In my case I would earn a fortune flipping burgers at a beautiful
> beach of a luxury hotel for the super-rich from all over the world
> since I can speak fluently five languages.
>
> Regards
> --
> Alfred Salib Chamass@ flipping burgers for his dinner.
You still don't get it do you? I factor in my investment and years
spent learning how to do what I now when I determine my rates - my
hourly rates. Why don't you do the same? How much does a straight-off-
the-plane, unqualified NES get for doing private eikaiwa lessons?
3,000 yen? 4,000 yen? With all the effort I've put in to master
Japanese and learn about business, economics, etc. I reckon I'm worth
at least 50% more per hour than the eikaiwa guy. So I say right, I'm
going to make 5,500 yen per hour, and that's that. You want me to
translate a 10,000 char document and you want to pay me 5 yen per
char? Fine. I'll spend 9 hours of my precious time on it. You're
prepared to pay me 10 yen a char? OK, I'll devote 18 hours to it.
Working at 5 yen per char isn't difficult when you get used to it.
It's just like taking an exam against the clock. The more you do it
the easier it gets. And when it gets too easy, when that exam feeling
goes, I just bump up my hourly rate again. At 6,000 yen per hour, I
would now have to finish the job in 8.25 hours. It may not be the best
written document in the world, but I don't feel guilty in the
slightest. I know that it'll be pretty good given the time I spent on
it, and that the client will come back for more. They always do.
Joji and Jim have said that some people "can only do their best." But
what is your best? You could spend 20 hours, 30 hours, maybe even 40
hours on the above translation. Would it be perfect? No. There's no
such thing as a perfect translation. There's always room for a bit
more tweaking, a bit more reading around on the subject, a bit more
farting about. There's no end to it. That's why I set a time limit for
every job I do. Then, when it's done I'm happy because I know I've
given it my best shot and earned a sum of money that doesn't make me
feel envious when I see Spongebob Squarepants on the telly.
For me, there is no other way to live.
Matt
Alfred S Chamass
>
> For me, there is no other way to live.
>
> Matt
And, for that you earn all my respect.
As long we do our best in whatever we are doing and we enjoy it, it
will eventually add to something important.
Regards
--
Alfred Salib Chamass
scha...@gmail.com
Jean-Christophe Helary
On vendredi 12 déc. 08, at 19:10, Matt Stanton wrote:
> That's why I set a time limit for every job I do.
Usually, the client sets the time limit for you. It is called a
deadline.
Matt Stanton
do.
Matt
On Dec 12, 7:58 pm, Jean-Christophe Helary <fus...@mx6.tiki.ne.jp>
wrote:
Max Tung
discussing about is also what I am thinking of.
I just graduated from university last year and I joined this company
half a year ago, I can not say that I know everything about this
industry now. So I would like to talk more about our company.
This company is established in 1996, by two translators. We now have
55 full-time employees and all of our clients are from abroad. At
first, we are only focus on Chinese localization for IBM. These years,
for the clients usually want their projects to be done together
(including to Asian languages such as Japanese), we plan to expand our
business and increase our database.
For achieve that, we must let the freelancers know our vacancy, so we
have posts each month with the help of the PMs. In fact, I only get
more or less than 20 emails for each post (You can also find that many
of you reluctantly bid for that), in the end, we can only gain 1
freelancer or so. I don’t feel this is a good way either, however I
have no idea where you are looking for agencies.
I think there is still a misunderstanding. I said that some clients
don’t know much about how to tell the quality, which doesn’t mean our
work is poor. Quality is the most important factor for survive. We
believe that the situation will change some day, when quality is life
in the clients’ eyes.
We have established stable cooperation with excellent freelance
translators and we appreciate their long-time support. Although our
general rate isn’t high, but it is not as low as which you have
mentioned, we don’t consider freelancers who ask for too low either.
In my opinion, the factors for our long-time cooperation is stable
workload and on time payment.
You can check our blueboard on Proz. http://www.proz.com/blueboard/684
. We have LWA of both 5 and 1.You can also chat with the freelancers
who have worked together with us about our company, if you are
interested.
I just want to make it transparent. I believe that the more we know
each other, the easy my work will be.
Thank all for your attention.
Warm regards!
Fred Uleman
<http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell>.
FYI.
-- -- -- -- --
Fred Uleman
Germaine Hoston
What is
the point of that?
As for the recession being an excuse, in my experience, people always
try to pay the lowest possible rates, even in the midst of an economic
boom! So the recession is more of an excuse than a valid reason.
You can't get around the fact that you do get what you pay for! It
is
important for agencies to educate their clients on what is involved in
translation. It doesn't make sense to pay a low rate to get a poor
quality
translation, for which you end up having to pay additional to get it
edited
into something that will communicate your client's message
effectively. If you
deliver translations that do not communicate effectively for the
client or are
just plain inaccurate, you will jeopardize your reputation and lose
business.
Germaine A. Hoston
On Dec 11, 4:55 pm, Jean-Christophe Helary <fus...@mx6.tiki.ne.jp>
wrote: