Reality check re: low rates (patents)

[Jacob Dunlap]

Hello all.

I have done very little freelancing since becoming a translator, so I
was hoping to get some opinions from the more seasoned freelancers on
honyaku. I was contacted by an agency (not located in Japan; a friend
passed my name on to them) for some patent work -- two 公開s, of about
6000 and 8000 Japanese characters respectively, with pretty technical
content. I quoted them what I thought was a reasonable rate only to
be told my quote was too high and that the best they could offer was
$300 US for the two (the whole job, not $300 each).

Granted, these patents are most likely for information purposes, but
even so, that seems extremely low to me based on my knowledge of the
patent market here in Japan. Can someone reassure me, please? ;)

Jacob Dunlap

[Matthew Schlecht]

     This works out to ~US0.02/moji.
     Low by almost anyone's standards.
     These are probably the going rates in India, for example, (I get contacted from there all the time with jobs like this) but not anywhere in the Western developed world, where standard rates are 4-6x this value, or more.

My US$0.02 (just enough to pay for the tarnslation of one moji from this project!)

Matthew Schlecht

2009/6/3 Jacob Dunlap <jaked...@gmail.com>

[Karen Sandness]

That's scraping the bottom even for the U.S. market. It's about what
agencies in India and China ask for, which is why I refuse to work for
them, since I don't pay Chinese or Indian consumer prices.

Comparatively yours,
Karen Sandness

[Jacob Dunlap]

Thanks for the replies. That's pretty much what I figured, but I just
wanted to check -- the extremely low rates were more surprising than
anything. Timewise, I could make almost as much working at Lawson's!

Jacob Dunlap

[Cary Strunk]

Mr. Dunlap:

Let me just add my voice to those that say this is an appalingly low rate.

Best,

Cary Strunk

[Christopher Girsch]

>Thanks for the replies. That's pretty much what I figured, but I just
>wanted to check -- the extremely low rates were more surprising than
>anything. Timewise, I could make almost as much working at Lawson's!
>

Hi, my old pal Jake!

I have repeatedly been approached by clients new and old with
appalling rates; some from China, some from Japan.

Last week, I was approached by a long-term (albeit infrequent) client
in Japan that offered only 1.3 yen (that's roughly 2.6 yen per
translated English word) per character for what I thought was
complicated material.

As our friend Karen correctly stated: I don't pay Chinese or Indian
consumer prices, so I turn those jobs down.

Is the market going south, or should I say EAST on us?

Chris Girsch

[William Taylor]

Christopher Girsch wrote:

> As our friend Karen correctly stated: I don't pay Chinese or Indian
> consumer prices, so I turn those jobs down.

I pay consumer prices cheaper than those in China and on par with
India and I turn those jobs down as well.
(Have you been to Hong Kong recently? It certainly is not cheap.)
However I don't think the enemy is this mythical army of translators
in third world countries who are undercutting rates and forcing
downward pressure on the market.
Lets stop taking the piss out of India and China and start taking a
look in the mirror.

William Taylor
Chiang Mai, Thailand

[David Farnsworth]

Really? I don't recall accepting work or subcontracting work out at 2.6 yen
per character, EVER.

Whose mirror are we talking about?

David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224

[Nora Stevens Heath]

William Taylor wrote:

> Lets stop taking the piss out of India and China and start taking a
> look in the mirror.

Certainly, as soon as I stop getting E-mails like the following
(reproduced in full) from a heretofore unheard-of agency individual in
India, shotgunned to me and several other fellow translators:

Dear translators,
We need to translate project and need your help to finish this
project , Please send your best rate if you able to work with us on
this project or part and deliver in the deadline.
Waiting for your reply.

Do you think they'd be willing to pay anywhere near my (reasonable for
North America and Japan) normal rate? Is it my fault if they won't?

Nora

--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/

[Simon Currie]

Perhaps making a move to China, India, or Thailand should be considered.

2009/6/4 Nora Stevens Heath <fumi...@gmail.com>:

--
-------------------------
Currie.jp Translation Services / Currie.jp 翻訳サービス
Simon Currie (クーリー才文)

si...@currie.jp
050-1384-8290 (home/office)
070-6484-9854 (mobile)
http://www.currie.jp
-------------------------

[Chris Poole]

What 'n tarnslation!??

 

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

 

It's just called competition Jacob. It's only "low" if it's less than you could get for those hours elsewhere.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Matthew Schlecht

To: hon...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 11:01 AM

Subject: Re: Reality check re: low rates (patents)

[Fred Uleman]

And the flip side is that your rates are only high if nobody'll pay you that much to do it?

Re Chris's:

It's only "low" if it's less than you could get for those hours elsewhere.

--
Fred Uleman

[Uwe Hirayama]

Dear Jacob,

can you ask them if there is a mistake in their calculation?

Just to give some vague figures: the fee mentioned is about one 1/3 to 1/5
of my price (provided 1 Euro = 1 USD which does not meet the actual
exchange rate).

Two ideas:

1) the agency wants to establish a very high margin.
2) their client has a very restricted budget.

One measure (not meant that seriously):

If you or another translator has enough time, translate it and
deliver every second or every third word.

More seriously:

> Granted, these patents are most likely for information purposes,

Even so, this is no arguement for a reduced price.
the translations can be used as citation in a lawsuit
or nullity suit or what ever with very high value in
litigation.

Just my 0.02 USD or my mustard (to the sausage, as we rather say
here in Germany),

Uwe Hirayama
hira...@t-online.de
JP GER TRSL

[TimL...@aol.com]

Jake,

 

When I was a buyer of raw materials for a large chemical company, the HOD (head of department) asked me one day what the most important word in my job was.  I didn't get it right, but the answer was NO.

 

Regards

Tim

[Matthew Schlecht]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:54 PM, William Taylor <william...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I pay consumer prices cheaper than those in China and on par with
> India and I turn those jobs down as well.

     Then , you're "sitting pretty".

> (Have you been to Hong Kong recently? It certainly is not cheap.)
> However I don't think the enemy is this mythical army of translators
> in third world countries who are undercutting rates and forcing
> downward pressure on the market.
> Lets stop taking the piss out of India and China and start taking a
> look in the mirror.
>
> William Taylor
> Chiang Mai, Thailand

     No one is making reference to a mythical army anywhere.
     I didn't mention China, but did mention India.  There aren't enough Chinese translators with passable English skills at present to constitute serious competition, but that might be different in the future.  The situation is quite different in India, though, where English is a first language for many, there is a large population of technically trained and underemployed individuals, and the cost-of-living makes it possible to work at rates that are a fraction of those charged by us folks in the Western Hemisphere.
     I don't have any examples of such "offers", as I trash them immediately.  They almost universally make reference to US$0.05/word English target as the highest rate they can offer, sometimes $0.04.  This is roughly equivalent to the Japanese moji-based rates referenced by the OP.  If the approach is otherwise respectful, I will reply with my standard rate and comment politely on what is the fraction thereof that they are offering me.
     I can't really fault people who do translation as a livelihood and make a living wage under their local circumstances, and I don't consider them my enemy.  I focus on what extra I can add to the mix that might make me a better choice and justify my rates, which usually means drawing on my 20+ years of experience in research in chemistry and the life sciences in the US.
     To help any Honyaku members wary of "bottom-feeders in our midst" to become disabused of their suspicions, I'll be sure to post the next low-ball offer that comes along, along with my reply (if any).

Matthew Schlecht
Newark, Delaware, USA

[B. Hyman]

> To help any Honyaku members wary of "bottom-feeders in our midst" to
> become disabused of their suspicions, I'll be sure to post the next low-ball
> offer that comes along, along with my reply (if any).

How would you define a "bottom feeder"?

---------------------------------------------
Brian Hyman
mli...@yokomoji.com
---------------------------------------------

[Chris Poole]

> How would you define a "bottom feeder"?

I wouldn't use the word to begin with. It is simply a vilification trowelled
over the fact that someone is more competitive.

Chris

[Karen Sandness]

Well, there's competitive (make a better product for the same price as
others) and there's competitive (underpay your workers and/or produce
a shoddy product).

Paying 2 cents a word is the latter.

Top-feedingly yours,
Karen Sandness

[Matthew Schlecht]

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:58 PM, B. Hyman <mli...@yokomoji.com> wrote:

> >      To help any Honyaku members wary of "bottom-feeders in our midst" to
> > become disabused of their suspicions, I'll be sure to post the next low-ball
> > offer that comes along, along with my reply (if any).
>
> How would you define a "bottom feeder"?
>

> Brian Hyman

     The term "bottom feeder" has been bandied about this list from time to time, and I suggest a search of the archives.
     However, a bottom-feeder would be a translator who works for rates far below what most of us would consider standard, and there is an implication that a "bottom-feeder" would not have good skills, i.e. is a bad translator, and therefore must accept lower rates.
     A corollary is that the bottom-feeder pollutes the field by allowing job outsourcers access to translations at low rates, though of poorer (but perhaps acceptable and fixable) quality.  The bottom-feeder does damage by justifying to PMs that rates can be pushed lower.
     I should make it clear - I'm not accusing anyone in this way.  However, it might just be me, but that's how I read the "look in the mirror" comment earlier in this thread.
     It seems that whenever work flows ebb a bit, some folks suspect that other folks are draining away work by offering substantially lower rates.

Matthew Schlecht
 

[B. Hyman]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:26:50 -0500
Karen Sandness <ksan...@comcast.net> wrote:

> ..... and there's competitive (underpay your workers and/or produce a shoddy product).

>
> Paying 2 cents a word is the latter.

If the person doing the work is happy to work for 2 cents, how does that
qualify as being underpaid?

Shoddy is a reference to quality, which can be defined in many ways.
However, the only quality that matters is that the person paying the
money is satisfied with that level of quality.

Some people want high quality and are prepared to pay for it.
Some of these can tell the difference between high and low quality, no
matter how you define it.

Some people are just looking for whatever is cheapest, and are satisfied
with whatever they get.
Some of these people know that they may not be getting a first-class
translation; others may not.

I sometimes eat at an expensive sushi restaurant.
The food is excellent as is the service.
This is perfect for special occasions or entertaining clients.

However, I also eat at a 100-yen kaiten-sushi restaurant.
It's quick, cheap, and the food is sufficient for a quick lunch with a
friend.

Not all sushi is the same, and not all translations are the same.

But that's OK.
Not all people want the same sushi or translation.

You're suggesting that the 100-yen kaiten-sushi is a bottom feeder?

[B. Hyman]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:35:42 -0400
Matthew Schlecht <matthew.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

> However, a bottom-feeder would be a translator who works for rates far
> below what most of us would consider standard, and there is an implication
> that a "bottom-feeder" would not have good skills, i.e. is a bad translator,
> and therefore must accept lower rates.

The translator is the bottom feeder?
I thought it was the client.

> A corollary is that the bottom-feeder pollutes the field by allowing
> job outsourcers access to translations at low rates, though of poorer (but
> perhaps acceptable and fixable) quality. The bottom-feeder does damage by
> justifying to PMs that rates can be pushed lower.

Just sounds like normal competition.

You can see the same in every industry.
Some televisions are more expensive than others.
You get to choose which you buy, and the stores get to choose which they
offer for sale.

[Steven P. Venti]

Brian Hyman asks:

> > How would you define a "bottom feeder"?

To which Chris Poole responds:

> I wouldn't use the word to begin with. It is simply a vilification trowelled
> over the fact that someone is more competitive.

I agree with Brian and Chris here (I'm assuming that Brian's was a
rhetorical question and meant to imply the same thing), and I also
believe that on a mailing list such as this one, it is probably a lot
more instructive to discuss what good business practices are rather than
to hurl invective against the ever-evasive "them" who are perceived to
be a threat.

I personally have always felt that establishing long-term business
relationships is the most productive approach for a person of my skills,
and I've made an effort to position myself accordingly in the market, but
that doesn't mean I expect everyone else to take that approach.

After all, we all have different skills, and if someone can take my
business away by undercutting my rate, then I obviously have not branded
myself to my client as well as I should have. Which leaves me with the
choice of either competing anew for that business or making the effort
to find new business.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti
Mail: spv...@bhk-limited.com
Songs to Aging Children
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=spventi&view=playlists
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[christopher blakeslee]

Thinking directly in terms of the marine biology metaphor, our oceans
would cease to function without bottom feeders, who play a critical
role in the ecosystem. Now, if I were given the option to come back in
a second life as the fish of my choice, I certainly would not choose
to be a bottom-feeding species, I'd prefer being a predator of some
sort, something like a marlin. And I probably wouldn't associate with
bottom feeders. But I wouldn't disparage them either, knowing the
critical role they play, keeping the oceans clean and serving as food
for the fish that are eaten by the fish that are eaten by the fish
that I as a marlin eat. But don't take this to mean that I object to
the flinging around of the bottomfeeder epithet on honyaku. In fact,
the opposite is true, as I show in the dry-land context below.

Moving back to the world of translators and other land mammals, the
translation market, like all other markets, is rife with
imperfections, including la certain number of competent translators
who consistently undercharge (meaning charge less than they can get
away with) for their service. They do this out of ignorance, not out
of spite. And by definition, "underchargers" does not refer to those
who charge 2 cents a word for translations that are worth 2 cents a
word. Where the market works beautifully, and in accordance with
perfect markets theory, is that there is no lack of agencies who will
oblige underchargers and keep them plenty busy, making a pretty markup
in the process. If the number of these underchargers gets too high,
which will happen if their colleagues fail to winnow their numbers
down through education and the sharing of market knowledge on what the
market will bear (and a popular way to achieve this education is
through disparaging remarks about bottomfeeders), then the market will
soon adapt to the new reality, the demand curve will shift downward,
and translators at the margin getting premium rates will either have
to lower their rates or see a drop in their volume. This dynamic
interplay between supply and demand actually plays out in each
specific segment of the market constantly, and in both directions,
with the ebb and flow of new price ignorant translators entering the
market on the supply side and the ebb and flow of translation
end-customers seeking translation on the demand side, most of whom
make use of the predatory services offered by translation agencies,
since they are more skilled at sniffing out the price-ignorant
underchargers.

So the moral of this story is that it is in our own best interests to
advise the less market-aware translators, especially those who work in
our specific market segments, if they are undercharging. This of
course can be done without resorting to such insensitive (to some)
terms as bottomfeeders. But it needs to be done.

chris blakeslee

[pg...@gol.com]

If memory serves, discussions like this on rates have in the past seemed to
drift perilously in the direction of rate-rigging, as in "advising" bottom
feeders what they should be charging, calling for "translator solidarity"
and the like.

Leaving everything to the market may be a dirty word nowadays, but I second
the views of others to the effect that (1) it's the way things should be,
and (2) nothing can be done about it, anyway. Except for his last para,
Chris makes an excellent case for (1).

Bottom line, IMO: You pays yo' money and you takes yo' choice.

Perry E. Gary

[Marceline Therrien]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On

>Behalf Of pg...@gol.com
>Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 3:15 AM
>To: hon...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: Bottom feeders (was: Re: Reality check re: low rates
>(patents))
>
>

>If memory serves, discussions like this on rates have in the past seemed
>to
>drift perilously in the direction of rate-rigging, as in "advising"
>bottom
>feeders what they should be charging, calling for "translator
>solidarity"
>and the like.
>
>Leaving everything to the market may be a dirty word nowadays, but I
>second
>the views of others to the effect that (1) it's the way things should be,
>and (2) nothing can be done about it, anyway. Except for his last para,
>Chris makes an excellent case for (1).
>

There's a big difference between market transparency and price rigging.

Free markets require the first, but not the second, to function efficiently.

Marceline Therrien
J2E Business Translations
San Francisco, California, USA
*Do not forward or repost this message without the author's permission*

[Pamela Ikegami]

On Jun 5, 2009, at 6:15 AM, <pg...@gol.com> <pg...@gol.com> wrote:

>
> If memory serves, discussions like this on rates have in the past
> seemed to
> drift perilously in the direction of rate-rigging, as in "advising"
> bottom
> feeders what they should be charging, calling for "translator
> solidarity"
> and the like.
>
> Leaving everything to the market may be a dirty word nowadays, but I
> second
> the views of others to the effect that (1) it's the way things
> should be,
> and (2) nothing can be done about it, anyway. Except for his last
> para,
> Chris makes an excellent case for (1).

I may very well have the details wrong, but it seems to me this fear
of some type of impending retribution for an open discussion of market
rates comes from something that happened years ago on the ATA mailing
list. ATA is a professional organization that requires membership fees
and access to the mailing list is not a matter of public record, as
far as I know.
Wouldn't that be what led to supposed charges of price rigging or
collusion or whatever?

I don't see a need for individuals participating in a public forum
like Honyaku to fear a discussion of rates. I just think most people
prefer to keep that information confidential and a few probably get
bandied into thinking it's somehow forbidden.

I'm not a lawyer, so if anyone is and can tell me if I've got it all
wrong, that would be appreciated.

Pam Ikegami

[Laurie Berman]

On Jun 5, 2009, at 6:15 AM, <pg...@gol.com> <pg...@gol.com> wrote:

>
> Leaving everything to the market may be a dirty word nowadays, but
> I second
> the views of others to the effect that (1) it's the way things
> should be,
> and (2) nothing can be done about it, anyway. Except for his last
> para,
> Chris makes an excellent case for (1).
>
> Bottom line, IMO: You pays yo' money and you takes yo' choice.

I'm no economist, but I don't think one has to be one (especially
nowadays with so many good examples all around us) to realize that
markets don't always work in textbook fashion, and translation offers
a good example of that. The problem in translation is that in many
cases the end user's perception of the product's (translation's)
quality is not really factoring into economic decisions. If this
happens, then competition is all about cost, and the result is a race
to the bottom. That may eventually correct itself, but by then a lot
of damage has been done on many levels. (Haven't we learned this
about markets?) Given these issues, it seems to me that not even Alan
Greenspan could object to the idea of educating clients and fellow
translators to improve the way the market functions.

Laurie Berman

[Andy]

Some of the unsolicited job announcements that I receive are astonishingly low.  Here is one I just received

*****************************
We have an urgent need for translation of text from English to Japanese. The word count is 6,475 and it is due by Sunday June 7th at 11 pm CST. The rate is $.03 USD. Please respond only if you can meet the deadline.

*****************************

This came via a website called  translatorsbase.com that routinely seems to try to find low-cost providers

Andy

--
_______________________________________________________________
Andrew Taylor
Japan Pacific Publications, Inc.
PO Box 3092 -- 519 6th Ave. S., Suite 220 -- Seattle, WA 98104
Tel: 206-622-7443 -- Fax: 206-621-1786

Japanese Translations and Typesetting • Japanese business cards
Publishers of the Soy Source -- Seattle's Japanese language newspaper

[Matt Stanton]

Hmm. So some translators work for high rates and others work for low
rates. But is this situation really down to those working for low
rates being "price-ignorant underchargers?" Could it not in fact be
down to those clients paying high rates being "price-ignorant
overpayers?" Just some food for thought.

Matt Stanton

[Sarah McNally]

> soon adapt to the new reality, the demand curve will shift downward,
> and translators at the margin getting premium rates will either have
> to lower their rates or see a drop in their volume. This dynamic
> interplay between supply and demand actually plays out in each
> specific segment of the market constantly, and in both directions,
> with the ebb and flow of new price ignorant translators entering the
> market on the supply side and the ebb and flow of translation
> end-customers seeking translation on the demand side, most of whom
> make use of the predatory services offered by translation agencies,
> since they are more skilled at sniffing out the price-ignorant
> underchargers.
>

Regarding the general downward trend in rates, I think at least a little of it is also because we now need less time and less specialized knowledge to complete technical translations due to the injection of technology (the growth of the internet).

Sarah

[Harry Yasumura]

It seems that this topic is coming up more frequently these days. Rather than putting a blame on India/China, economic downturn or greedy

agencies, we need to look at the situation objectively. 

I feel that there is a fundamental shift happening in the global economy and there is no way translation industry can remain unaffected.

Ignoring these changes would be like living in a fool's paradise. Over the last few decades, businesses have continuosly moved to geographies that offer better cost-performance. Increasing competition and increased participation of emerging economies (some of us also call them third world countries) in the global trade has acted as a catalyst to this process.

In 1980s and 90s, the US lost its leadership in manufacturing to Asia. We all know that GM (which recently filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy), Ford and Chrysler were bleeding, while Toyota, Honda, Nissan were making record profits! Why? Because GM, Ford and Chrysler were gradually losing their competitiveness. Japan was a leader in the semiconductor industry in 70s and 80s. However, they lost this leadership to nimble footed Korean, Chinese and Taiwanese companies in 90s. India, which was no where on the radar of IT industry; has emerged as a formidable competitor.

People may say that translation is a knowledge based industry and it should not be affected by such changes in the global economy. I do not agree. Here is what I have learnt and realized over last few months.

After working with a large Japanese semiconductor company for few years, I decided to become a freelance translator. After freelancing for about five years, I joined back my previous employer few months ago. Right now, I am involved in procuring software development,
translation and other services mainly from emerging countries like India, China, Vietnam etc. As far as translation is concerned, we
purchase a fair amount of translation services from various domestic and overseas vendors every year. However, because of the economic downturn, translation budget has been drastically cut. At the same time, translation volume has not changed significantly. It essentially means that now we need to get a lot more translation done for every yen we are spending.

Apart from renegotiating our rates with US and Japan based agencies, we started exploring Indian and Chinese companies for outsourcing some of our Japanese to English translation projects.

So far, every single document was outsourced to US or Japan based translation agencies at their standard agreed rates irrespective of the objective or importance of that document. However, our analysis revealed that majority of our documents were for internal consumption. Next major chunk of documents were for our overseas vendors based in India and China. There was absolutely no need to spend through our nose on these documents. We still outsource patents, user manuals etc. to our vendors based in the US and Japan. However, we are gradually diverting rest of the translation to agencies and translators in India.

I see many people on this group directly/indirectly saying that agencies/translators from India/China are cheap, but they do dirty job. In fact, I was also under the same impression. However, after working with them over last few months and after visiting them a few times, I must say that they pose a serious competition to agencies/translators based in the developed countries. Following are some of the key takeaways that I would like to share:

* INCOME: An average translator based in India may be making a fraction of what his peers based in developed countries may be making. .
However, his income is good enough to ensure a decent quality of life for him and his family. I was told that usually engineering/medical science were the most preferred streams for bright students. However, more and more students are learning languages like Japanese as they see good earning potential.
* MOTIVATION: This is one factor where they score very high. Their willingness to learn and to improve their skills is highly commendable.
* TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE: One of the agencies we work with in India has formed a small team of inhouse engineers, which work with their translators to ensure that correct technical terms are used. Again, low cost of living allow them to do so. We have found that this model has worked extremely well for our technical documents (specifications, test reports etc).

Having said that I think they still have a way to go before they can handle patents or user manuals. I feel they also realize that, but they are determined to leave no stone unturned to reach that level.

I will say that the competition is real for linguists living in developed countries. Considering the competition, economic downturn,

budget cuts etc, unless you continue to innovate, offer value added services, it will be extremely difficult to keep the rates!

I sometimes wonder, for a country like India which has a population of 1.2 billion people and where English is the first language, it should not be very difficult to extensively train 5,000 - 6,000 qualified people on Japanese language and flood the market with more competitive translators, they way they are doing in software services industry! It may happen over next few years, but it will change the landscape of the translation industry once and forever. 

Harry

Kawasaki, Japan

[Sarah McNally]

Great insight! Thanks for the input Harry.

Sarah

2009/6/6 Harry Yasumura <yasumu...@gmail.com>

[pg...@gol.com]

Actually, it was on another list that a similar discussion was conducted on
rates years ago.

No objection to rate transparency and all that, I too have over time gained
some notions about the rate market from this list, but like this thread,
starring bottom feeders this time, that one also eventually gravitated in
the direction I have indicated. (That was where the idea of a trade union
was floated, but it died due to difficult practicalities.) As I gather was
the case with the ATA discussion you mention.

Not that I have any great dread of getting jumped on by the Authorities, be
it noted, but I am personally unconfortable with the idea of being involved,
however peripherally, in something that might not be all that
sweet-smelling. (Square-jawed dedication to the integrity of the free market
principle aside, of course. :-))

Perry E. Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pamela Ikegami" <p.ik...@gmail.com>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: Bottom feeders (was: Re: Reality check re: low rates (patents))

>
>

[Steven P. Venti]

Sarah McNally <samc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great insight! Thanks for the input Harry.

And thank you, Sarah, for trimming judiciously. It's nice to see that
people do heed our requests to follow the guidelines.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti, one of three list owners
spv...@bhk-limited.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Ginstrom IT Solutions (GITS)]

> [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry Yasumura

> budget cuts etc, unless you continue to innovate, offer value
> added services, it will be extremely difficult to keep the rates!

I haven't seen any downturn in my work volume over the past year. I
understand what you're saying, but when you're still turning away work
because you're too busy, it's hard to convince yourself that you need to
lower your rates.

When the work starts drying up, I'll think about it.

Also, I could be mistaken, but my take is that most of the work being
shipped to China and India was formerly being done by native Japanese
speakers. I thus don't think that I'm competing with Chinese and Indian
agencies directly for work, although obviously a drop in the low end of the
market will put downward pressure on the higher end of the market as well.

> industry! It may happen over next few years, but it will
> change the landscape of the translation industry once and forever.

There are lots of things going on that are going to change the face of every
industry forever. Why should translation be left out? <G>

Regards,
Ryan

--
Ryan Ginstrom
trans...@ginstrom.com
http://ginstrom.com/

[Matthew Schlecht]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:02 AM, <pg...@gol.com> wrote:
> As I gather was the case with the ATA discussion you mention.

     If listmembers are unaware of the ATA / FTC episode, which basically boiled down to ATA agreeing to the FTC not to _post_ prices as an organization (no prohibition on individual members) following an official investigation, there is a 2005 article from the ATA Chronicle that tells the story, at:

http://www.atanet.org/docs/antitrust_reprint_may2005.pdf

     Anyone who is unable to access this could contact me OL and I will forward them a copy.

Matthew Schlecht

[Warren Smith]

Thank you, Matthew Schlect, for the very important link you posted: 

http://www.atanet.org/docs/antitrust_reprint_may2005.pdf

 

I see that this link was the last word in the thread, perhaps scaring everybody off from discussions of the market.

 

I was going to post what I charge, but after reading your link, I will not.

 

On the other hand, without revealing how much I *charge*, I can reveal what clients are offering (and paying) -- just as this thread was triggered by some obscenely low offers out there (of $0.02 per character). I could not imagine that revealing how much clients are willing to pay could possibly be construed as anti-competitive, as a competitive "market" can only exist in the presence of transparency (such as found when gasoline stations post prices on big signs that even their competitors can see). In the spirit of education and transparency, I can report what I have seen of what some firms are willing to pay (being very careful not to make any statement as to what my personal rates are).

 

 

I know of a couple of firms that regularly pay 20 cents per word for patent translations. I know of other firms who pay 16 cents per word and 15 cents per word (also for patent translation work), and firms that pay prices in between. I know of a translation broker that regularly tries to pay 14 cents per word for patent work, but sometimes has problems getting some preferred translators to work at that rate. It is my understanding that some firms are willing to pay more than this for translated and localized advertising copy.

 

Just a couple of data points about what some firms are paying....

 

Warren