Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the HNSA web content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For several years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I can dredge off the net.
This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding aids and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and NARA, I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College Park (I'm located in California).
At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation of the information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database (at http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for the ships I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
Prefix Name Year Series Cross Ref USAT MARINE RAVEN 1944-X RG336 STACK 231 USAT MARINE ROBIN 1944-X RG336 STACK 231 USAT MARINE WOLF 1944-X RG336 STACK 231
Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College Park!
Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries, "Series" seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of the Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the Maritime Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed at NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm looking for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other wrinkle in this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then a physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan for this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in advance!
This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email
to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that
know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
rich
On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the HNSA web
> content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these
> resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of
> Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types
> including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For several
> years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical
> documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I can
> dredge off the net.
> This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding aids
> and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and NARA,
> I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College Park
> (I'm located in California).
> At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation of the
> information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database (athttp://www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that
> someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for the ships
> I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> Prefix Name
> Year Series Cross Ref
> USAT MARINE RAVEN
> 1944-X
> RG336
> STACK 231
> USAT MARINE ROBIN
> 1944-X
> RG336
> STACK 231
> USAT MARINE WOLF
> 1944-X
> RG336
> STACK 231
> Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College Park!
> Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries, "Series"
> seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of the
> Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the Maritime
> Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed at
> NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm looking
> for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other wrinkle in
> this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then a
> physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
> Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan for
> this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in advance!
Ah, interesting - I hadn't realized that it was a direct transcription of NARA's content. I'll stay tuned for the resolution, if any.
The result (i.e., RG 336) was odd at first as it showed up for several types of vessels, and then became more confusing as it didn't match any of the explanations in the key (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/key.htm#cross).
On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> rich
> On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the HNSA > web > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For several > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I can > > dredge off the net.
> > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding > aids > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and > NARA, > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College Park > > (I'm located in California).
> > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation of > the > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database (athttp:// > www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for the > ships > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College Park!
> > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries, > "Series" > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of the > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the Maritime > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed at > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm > looking > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other wrinkle in > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then a > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
> > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan for > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in advance!
> Hi - I was wondering if there was any resolution on this oddity as yet.
> Thanks for your help so far!
> Cheers,
> --joe.
> On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> > This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email
> > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that
> > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> > rich
> > On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the HNSA
> > web
> > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these
> > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of
> > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types
> > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For several
> > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical
> > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I can
> > > dredge off the net.
> > > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding
> > aids
> > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and
> > NARA,
> > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College Park
> > > (I'm located in California).
> > > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation of
> > the
> > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database (athttp://
> >www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that
> > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for the
> > ships
> > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least
> > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College Park!
> > > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries,
> > "Series"
> > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of the
> > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the Maritime
> > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed at
> > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm
> > looking
> > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other wrinkle in
> > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then a
> > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
> > > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan for
> > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in advance!
On Monday, March 12, 2012 6:08:51 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> I did not get a response from the archivist to my email, but I will be > visiting NARA and will ask in person.
> rich
> On Mar 11, 11:19 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi - I was wondering if there was any resolution on this oddity as yet.
> > Thanks for your help so far!
> > Cheers, > > --joe.
> > On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> > > This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email > > > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that > > > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> > > rich
> > > On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > > > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the > HNSA > > > web > > > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > > > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these > > > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of > > > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types > > > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For > several > > > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical > > > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I > can > > > > dredge off the net.
> > > > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding > > > aids > > > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and > > > NARA, > > > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College > Park > > > > (I'm located in California).
> > > > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation > of > > > the > > > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database > (athttp:// > > >www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that > > > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for > the > > > ships > > > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > > > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least > > > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College > Park!
> > > > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries, > > > "Series" > > > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of > the > > > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the > Maritime > > > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed > at > > > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm > > > looking > > > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other > wrinkle in > > > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then > a > > > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
> > > > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan > for > > > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in > advance!
> Thanks for the response, Rich; enjoy your trip to the Archives!
> Cheers,
> --joe.
> On Monday, March 12, 2012 6:08:51 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> > I did not get a response from the archivist to my email, but I will be
> > visiting NARA and will ask in person.
> > rich
> > On Mar 11, 11:19 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi - I was wondering if there was any resolution on this oddity as yet.
> > > Thanks for your help so far!
> > > Cheers,
> > > --joe.
> > > On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> > > > This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an email
> > > > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones that
> > > > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> > > > rich
> > > > On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > > > > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to the
> > HNSA
> > > > web
> > > > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > > > > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of these
> > > > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a class of
> > > > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship types
> > > > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For
> > several
> > > > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any technical
> > > > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as I
> > can
> > > > > dredge off the net.
> > > > > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA finding
> > > > aids
> > > > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA and
> > > > NARA,
> > > > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to College
> > Park
> > > > > (I'm located in California).
> > > > > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper interpretation
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database
> > (athttp://
> > > >www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that
> > > > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched for
> > the
> > > > ships
> > > > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > > > > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least
> > > > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in College
> > Park!
> > > > > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these entries,
> > > > "Series"
> > > > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records of
> > the
> > > > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the
> > Maritime
> > > > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is listed
> > at
> > > > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans I'm
> > > > looking
> > > > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other
> > wrinkle in
> > > > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" then
> > a
> > > > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in RG336?
> > > > > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to plan
> > for
> > > > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in
> > advance!
That's fantastic - thanks so much for taking the time to ferret them out!
And how odd that these files are still in paper form, and haven't been collected with the RG 357/MARAD materials. (One should never doubt a Finding Aid, I guess.) No *wonder* I've had such difficulty finding references to them.
How I envy your access to NARA - thanks again, Rich!
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:28:52 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> So RG 336 is the Records of the Office of the Chief of > Transportation. They have a number of USAT ships in flat files.
> I was able to get a booklet of general plans for USS Marine Raven > scanned. When I get home next week I will put a 150 dpi version up on > the web site.
> rich
> On Mar 13, 4:46 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for the response, Rich; enjoy your trip to the Archives!
> > Cheers, > > --joe.
> > On Monday, March 12, 2012 6:08:51 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> > > I did not get a response from the archivist to my email, but I will be > > > visiting NARA and will ask in person.
> > > rich
> > > On Mar 11, 11:19 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi - I was wondering if there was any resolution on this oddity as > yet.
> > > > Thanks for your help so far!
> > > > Cheers, > > > > --joe.
> > > > On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> > > > > This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an > email > > > > > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones > that > > > > > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> > > > > rich
> > > > > On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > > > > > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to > the > > > HNSA > > > > > web > > > > > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > > > > > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of > these > > > > > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a > class of > > > > > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship > types > > > > > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For > > > several > > > > > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any > technical > > > > > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as > I > > > can > > > > > > dredge off the net.
> > > > > > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA > finding > > > > > aids > > > > > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA > and > > > > > NARA, > > > > > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to > College > > > Park > > > > > > (I'm located in California).
> > > > > > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper > interpretation > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database > > > (athttp:// > > > > >www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that > > > > > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched > for > > > the > > > > > ships > > > > > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > > > > > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least > > > > > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in > College > > > Park!
> > > > > > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these > entries, > > > > > "Series" > > > > > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records > of > > > the > > > > > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the > > > Maritime > > > > > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is > listed > > > at > > > > > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans > I'm > > > > > looking > > > > > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other > > > wrinkle in > > > > > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231" > then > > > a > > > > > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in > RG336?
> > > > > > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to > plan > > > for > > > > > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in > > > advance!
> That's fantastic - thanks so much for taking the time to ferret them out!
> And how odd that these files are still in paper form, and haven't been
> collected with the RG 357/MARAD materials. (One should never doubt a
> Finding Aid, I guess.) No *wonder* I've had such difficulty finding
> references to them.
> How I envy your access to NARA - thanks again, Rich!
> Cheers,
> --joe.
> On Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:28:52 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> > So RG 336 is the Records of the Office of the Chief of
> > Transportation. They have a number of USAT ships in flat files.
> > I was able to get a booklet of general plans for USS Marine Raven
> > scanned. When I get home next week I will put a 150 dpi version up on
> > the web site.
> > rich
> > On Mar 13, 4:46 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Thanks for the response, Rich; enjoy your trip to the Archives!
> > > Cheers,
> > > --joe.
> > > On Monday, March 12, 2012 6:08:51 PM UTC-7, pekelney wrote:
> > > > I did not get a response from the archivist to my email, but I will be
> > > > visiting NARA and will ask in person.
> > > > rich
> > > > On Mar 11, 11:19 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi - I was wondering if there was any resolution on this oddity as
> > yet.
> > > > > Thanks for your help so far!
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > --joe.
> > > > > On Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-8, pekelney wrote:
> > > > > > This is interesting because I have not used RG 336. I sent an
> > email
> > > > > > to the archivist in the cartographic section. They are the ones
> > that
> > > > > > know the record groups and have created this finding aid.
> > > > > > rich
> > > > > > On Mar 2, 10:45 pm, joe <jrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi - new member, first post.
> > > > > > > Thanks, first of all, to the Group maintainers, as well as to
> > the
> > > > HNSA
> > > > > > web
> > > > > > > content providers - yours is a remarkable online resource.
> > > > > > > I'm an amateur ship historian and model builder, and my use of
> > these
> > > > > > > resources thus far has been in pursuit of information for a
> > class of
> > > > > > > Maritime Commission vessels from 1944-, the C4-S-B2 troopship
> > types
> > > > > > > including "Marine Angel", "Marine Devil", and their sisters. For
> > > > several
> > > > > > > years of casual research, I've not yet found plans or any
> > technical
> > > > > > > documentation save the most basic, as well as as many photos as
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > dredge off the net.
> > > > > > > This changed recently when I finally learned to use the NARA
> > finding
> > > > > > aids
> > > > > > > and the Archives' website to search for records. Thanks to HNSA
> > and
> > > > > > NARA,
> > > > > > > I'm now in the early stages of planning a research trip to
> > College
> > > > Park
> > > > > > > (I'm located in California).
> > > > > > > At the moment, though, I'm confused about the proper
> > interpretation
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > information in HNSA's version of the Master Ship List database
> > > > (athttp://
> > > > > >www.hnsa.org/doc/nara/searchplans/index.php), and I hope that
> > > > > > > someone on the board can clear up my confusion. I've searched
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > ships
> > > > > > > I'm interested in, and have found the following info:
> > > > > > > Imagine my excitement when I learn this means that at least
> > > > > > *some*technical info for these mysterious vessels exists in
> > College
> > > > Park!
> > > > > > > Herein, though, is the source of my confusion: for these
> > entries,
> > > > > > "Series"
> > > > > > > seems to indicate NARA Records Group 336, which are the "Records
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > Office of Chief of Transportation", *not* the "Records of the
> > > > Maritime
> > > > > > > Administration", which I've learned is RG 357, and in fact is
> > listed
> > > > at
> > > > > > > NARA as containing microfilm that is likely to have the plans
> > I'm
> > > > > > looking
> > > > > > > for. Is this likely to be a transcription error or some other
> > > > wrinkle in
> > > > > > > this version of the Master Ship List? And if so, is "Stack 231"
> > then
> > > > a
> > > > > > > physical locator at College Park for RG357, rather than in
> > RG336?
> > > > > > > Any help folks can provide would be fantastic, as I'm trying to
> > plan
> > > > for
> > > > > > > this trip in May. Best of luck in your searches, and thanks in
> > > > advance!
Excellent - this certainly changes the course of my research; many thanks for the work done!
In a way, the mystery deepens, as this suggests that no builders' drawing set survives for these vessels; indeed, the booklet of general plans doesn't even seem to include a set of hull sections in this instance. In some respects, the search continues - but now, it's *undeniably* nice to finally know what the deck configuration was (the available photos are terribly unclear)!
