Episode to B&W Matrix and Nautilus spkrs
TK Chan
> But still, I think if the N801 could sound a bit warmer if driven by an
> adequate tube amp...which is not gonna be easy as they aren't too many tubes
> around that has such a high power rating. Unless someone does come up with
> an amp using the WE308B which can turn out 200W in single-end class A! But
> the amp would be monstrously huge and expensive...the tube itself will run
> you US$1700 a piece if WE ever put their precious production line into
> making some of these.
The Nautilus is easier to drive than the Matrix series, believe it or not. What
drives the Matrix well will drive double well the Nautilus. They don't need a
tube amp to have this very airy and warm sound that we SS amp users are so much
after. To me the tube warmth sounds a bit so much of a 'tube' personality. The
Nautilus driven by a SS amp is just good to have all the good attributes of the
tube amp less the tube personality.
> Unfortunately the N803 are not here yet! Otherwise I might have taken my
> house for mortgage to get them if they are good! My only consideration is
> whether the N803 would really beat the M802? I guess this is also a big
> question mark of a lot of people who are interested in these speakers as the
> price of the 2 here are so similar (actually the N803 is more expensive than
> the M802 by a few thousands, I think).
Just read in the HiVi that in Japan, the N803 is selling at 80,000 Yens, which
is about HK$37K but less tax in HK would be around $25K. So your calculation is
correct. The HiVi gives very good rating to its very deep and vivid sound
stage which I do believe. This is already characteristic of the N801/2.
> But according to the B&W owners manual, the matrix series speakers should be
> placed at least 0.5M from the back wall for two reasons: control of bass
> boom and better soundstage depth. I just moved my 803 to about 52cm (was
> 40cm) from the back wall and the depth increase was great. But like you
> said, in my living room bass boom was never a problem as there is ample room
> for them to breath.
One thing I forgot to tell is that although my 801 was placed less than 1'
against the back wall, both speakers had ample side space which was more than 4'
from the side wall. Anyway, I have now changed the config after installing the
D50 projector.
> The dimension you mentioned are quite similar to what I have now...83" apart
> (tweeter center to center) and approx. 90" listener to frontal center.
>
> > Please accept my invitation to my humble abode for an audition...love to
> > have a more diverse opinion from other audiophiles, especially someone who
> > has so much experience with the B&W Matrix series!
>
> >Thanks for your invitation. I'll get Leehc to organize. In return, if you
> like
> >to try out your exquisite 300B in my place, this can also be arranged.
> BTW, >why is that this 300B so expensive to make, over $20K?
>
> I'd love that, but we'll have to wait till after Chinese New Year as I am
> going to (deleted for protection of personal information reasons)..unless you
> are anxious as me and would like tocome over sometime tomorrow or Wednesday
> evening!
Not at all. Just take your time to enjoy the holiday. I am sure that there
will be some surprise for you after your return. I have to do some calibration
to my D50 these few nights as to get the best from it.
> Actually, the amp's cost was something in the 12K neighbouhood...which is
> not so expensive considering only the finest componentry ws used in the
> construction of the amp...Kimber caps, Elna Cerefine, ELMA stepped volume
> with Holco 1% resistors, Mullard NOS ECC32, Mullard Holland metal base NOS
> GZ34....to name a few!
That is more of the reason to try it out with such exotic components.
> >Nicholas Ong is using a Matrix 801S3 and he said the sound has been very
> well
> >tamed. May be we can have a Matrix merry go round.
>
> The "Matrix merry go around"was suggested a while back (since in our circle
> here there are a lot of Matrix users) by AndyKong but somehow never took
> off. Guess they were waiting for the 300B PP to be born. Maybe we should
> call another party after Chinese New Year?
Andy has in his mail proposed to hold this meeting and the timing is OK with me
after the Chinese New Year. After all it is only 2 weeks from now and we family
man need to find some time to accompany our dear wife to go shopping, after what
we've done to her during the past year and thanking her for allowing us to do
unto ourselves with all these hifi/hivi ups and downs.
TK Chan
TK Chan
> ........ Besides, Corian does seem to me
> of any good material for hifi use. It is too light and too stiff like carbon fibre.
> Mass does play an important part in sound reproduction.
Sorry, I mean Corian does NOT seem to me of any good material for hifi use.
TK Chan
TK Chan
> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:10:40 +0800, in hk.rec.audio-visual you wrote:
>
> >"R.Mui" wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I've heard the N801 the other day and YES! The tweeter may very well be
> >> the best tweeter B&W ever came out with...but we aren't listening to just
> >> the tweeter so...
> >
> >So, you've listened to the Nautilus 801. I have only listened to the N802 and
> >it is definitely not resembling any of the Matrix counterpart. Indeed the 2
> >series bears no relevance except the model nos.
>
> The problem is, even when I evaluate the N802 as a brand new product,
> I don't think it worth $68.5K plus 3 months of waiting. There are
> certainly other alternatives, such as Egglestonework Rosa, JM Lab
> Mezzo Utopia, Ares III from Ultimate Technology, Genesis 500 or APM-1,
> Energy Veritas V2.8, Hales Tran. 5 or 8, Thiel CS6, ....
>
> Some of these will hold a better resell value. The point is, if Wing
> Fung drop the price control policy (very likely in the long run, say
> two years later when you want to change your speaker again), the
> retail price of N802 will drop significantly and the second hand value
> will be affected in due course.
My dear Andy, do let yourself a chance to listen to the Nautilus 801/802. The
Nautilus sound is something I never heard before. It may be difficult for me to
evaluate what is truly worthy of $68K sound but from what I heard before in the then
Man Yee hifi arcade, this Nautilus is way ahead of many 'old cakes' many times its
present price. Furthermore, I was told by Nicholas Ong that the price of the N802
is reasonable in Hong Kong. BTW, is Ricky getting the Egglestonework?. I do like
to listen to its sound.
> >Can I describe the Nautilus 801/2 the most tube sound spkrs without the need of
> >tube amp? For the N801/2 with the tweeter and midrange drivers both of
> >Nautilus design, the sound is so smooth and sweet that none of the B&W spkrs
> >before can match. The N803 and below uses only the Nautilus tweeter but the
> >cabinet is also of elliptical design which, according to Andy Kong, is one of
> >the best spkr cabinet designs. So coupled with the matrix construction, they
> >should yield a performance exceeding any previous series. Only complaint is the
> >price being out of proportion.
>
> I though the N801/2 were describe as the one of the more neutral
> sounding speaker, in that case, I wouldn't say it is tube sounding
> speaker. And from my brief encounter with N801, it is not the a very
> sweet sounding speaker to me, but the tonal balance is certainly very
> pleasing.
Yes, I agree that this can be another way to describe the N801/802.
> I did mentioned my ideal speaker cabinet is elliptical, but I was
> referring to an egg-shap enclousure, the N series only has an
> elliptical cross-section. Neverthelessness, it is a very good design
> and certainly more expensive to build when compare to rectanglar
> cabinet. But on the other hand, there are many speaker with that type
> of cabinets, I think Celestion Kingston was one of the first
> manufacturer manage that and they used moulded Corian as speaker
> enclosure, definitely better than MDF in terms of resonance control.
Not entirely agree. The Corian is a much easier material to work with insofar as
molding is concerned. But working with MDF to form a uniform elliptical shape as
big as the N801/802 cabinet is not anything easy. Besides, Corian does seem to me
of any good material for hifi use. It is too light and too stiff like carbon fibre.
Mass does play an important part in sound reproduction.
> Sonus Faber also has one model with that. On the "cheap" side, most
> speaker from the Champion series of Master Audio (designed and make in
> China with the help of ATC) use that shape as well. The Champion I
> is below $10K, and the little floorstanding Champion 30 is only $13K,
> The Champion 50 with ATC driver is slightly more than $20K only.
> >For N805, I do agree that its full range performance is still lesser than the
> >M802 in richness and musicality. But if we are considering a listening area of
> >around 100 sq. ft., it does merit due consideration because the M802 will then
> >be unable to realize to its best.
>
> Okay, the subject of this thread is small speakers. With the volume
> of N805, it certainly is NOT qualified for this.
That is why I am changing the title of this thread now.
> Despite 3/5a (which is not a product as you have 3/5a from several
> manufacturer), I would say ProAc and Focus Audio is very hot. ProAc
> Tablette 50/Tablette 50 Signature are very good seller and sounds very
> good when mated with the right amp., the Focus Audio FS68 is another
> star. It sell like a hot cake and is my favourite bookshelf speaker
> right now. On the other hand, ProAc Response 1SC is competing with
> FS68 directly but I don't think it is a good seller when compare to
> the Tablette.
>
> If you are not really concern on the volume (another way to interprate
> Hottest small speaker), I would say Audio Physics Step is also
> something you guys must audition before you jump to an conclusion (or
> stick to N805).
>
> Frankly, the N805 is too pricy for a bookshelf. It is actually very
> close to the Cello Elves, which is a great bookshelf speaker of all
> time. And Nic probabably will say at this price range, nothing can
> beat a used Sonus Faber Extrema, right?
Yes, I agree that the N805 is pricey but don't forget all ATCs are model to model
more pricey than the Nautilus series while still remaining on the 'old cake' stage
of construction.
> >> That said, I think I will like the 802 even better than the 801. Why? I
> >> think less is actually more when it comes to crossover design (and so is amp
> >> design). Think of it this way, if you can do the same with less components,
> >> why add more to complicate things?
> >
> >You may be right but not exactly if the simplified circuitry is a compromise. I
> >am incompetent to draw any conclusion as I am no technical guy. May be if you
> >have the opportunity of seeing both 801 and 802's crossover, do have an
> >examination of the circuitry. I am interested to know if I have unfairly
> >represented my old 802.
>
> Come on guys, you don't judge on the quality of a cross-over by the
> size of the PCB. Let's stop it right here.
Size does matter, as told repeatedly in the movie Gozilla.
> >> >> FYI, my 300B PP integrated is happily driving the 803S.2 with flying
> >> >> colours! Although rated only about 28W/channel, they is no complain from
> >> >> the speaker nor the amp even when playing 鬼太鼓 at floor-vibrating level
> >> in
> >> >> my 300 sq.ft. living room. So I don't suppose the M802 would be much
> >> >> different since the M802 has ony slightly bigger woofers and a rated
> >> >> sensitivity of 90db, same as the M803...although wth the M801 I'd say
> >> maybe
> >> >> around 60W/channel is in order as the woofer is just huge (and heavy too,
> >> >> ever tried pushing it in and see it swings back out SLOWLY, EXTREMELY
> >> high
> >> >> power and damping is usually required when this is seen in a woofer
> >> system).
> >> >
> >> >With 300 sq ft of space, it is quite sufficient for 801already. So your
> >> choice
> >> >should be the M801 rather than the 803. With the N805, I am referring to
> >> >listening area of around 100 to 150 sq ft. I don't have much listening
> >> >experience of the Matrix series driven with tube amps. I am interested to
> >> know
> >> >how the bass performs. Andy Kong always said that the M801 will need high
> >> >damping factor amps to drive.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, I am only using the living room half (about 2/3) for music
> >> and if inthe place of the 803 I have a pair of 801 instead, the 801 will
> >> only be 1 1/2' away from the back wall and only about 8' from my listening
> >> position...I don't think this is adequate space...
>
> No, you still have to count 300 sq ft. listening area as that is the
> space we use to calculate sound pressure, standing wave, resonance,
> ... etc. You have limitation on speaker placement, which I can
> understand that.
>
> Might you can put you sofa at where your HiFi cabinet are and place
> the speaker at where you place your sofa, you can accomodate larger
> speakers with this arrangement.
>
> >
> >But 200 sq ft is already good enough for 801 and the 1/3 reminder could serve as
> >a venting space. My previous position of the 801 was that its back was no more
> >than 1' against the back wall and I have about 8 to 9' from the listening
> >position to the spkr's frontal plane. I have the bass booming well controlled.
> >
>
> That's because you have a Mark amplifier. The damping factor of Mark
> is 900 and is definitely on the high side. I think the damping factor
> of R&D 300B SETA should be around 30~50 only, and the PP model should
> not be higher than this also.
What are you talking about? - 900 damping factor? No wonder I hardly had any
booming. Are you sure that is the correct figure? And the 300B has 30~50, that
means it will give the 801 lots of booms, right?
> >> Please accept my invitation to my humble abode for an audition...love to
> >> have a more diverse opinion from other audiophiles, especially someone who
> >> has so much experience with the B&W Matrix series!
> >
> >Thanks for your invitation. I'll get Leehc to organize. In return, if you like
> >to try out your exquisite 300B in my place, this can also be arranged. BTW, why
> >is that this 300B so expensive to make, over $20K?
> >
> >Nicholas Ong is using a Matrix 801S3 and he said the sound has been very well
> >tamed. May be we can have a Matrix merry go round.
> >
> >TK Chan
>
> I did propose something like this previously. We can have
>
> M803 at Richard's place
> M802 at Chris' place
> M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
> AB compare with Mark 23.5
We do own Chris a visit.
TK Chan
N C Ong
>
> Furthermore, I was told by Nicholas Ong that the price of the N802
> is reasonable in Hong Kong.
When we compare price of N802 in UK, GBP6,000 (HK$76,800), with current
price in HK ($68,500) after taking into account shipping, N802 are
definitely worth the bucks. But like Andy said, there are quite a few
good spks around this price.
Nicolas
TK Chan
TK Chan wrote:
>
> Richard Mui wrote:
>
> > But still, I think if the N801 could sound a bit warmer if driven by an
> > adequate tube amp...which is not gonna be easy as they aren't too many tubes
> > around that has such a high power rating. Unless someone does come up with
> > an amp using the WE308B which can turn out 200W in single-end class A! But
> > the amp would be monstrously huge and expensive...the tube itself will run
> > you US$1700 a piece if WE ever put their precious production line into
> > making some of these.
>
> The Nautilus is easier to drive than the Matrix series, believe it or not. What
> drives the Matrix well will drive double well the Nautilus. They don't need a
> tube amp to have this very airy and warm sound that we SS amp users are so much
> after. To me the tube warmth sounds a bit so much of a 'tube' personality. The
> Nautilus driven by a SS amp is just good to have all the good attributes of the
> tube amp less the tube personality.
Actually the new tube amp. are very fast and analytical (when compare to
the older tube amp) as well. I have heard Papworth/First Sound two
months back and I like it very much. Mesa is along that line as well.
>
> > Unfortunately the N803 are not here yet! Otherwise I might have taken my
> > house for mortgage to get them if they are good! My only consideration is
> > whether the N803 would really beat the M802? I guess this is also a big
> > question mark of a lot of people who are interested in these speakers as the
> > price of the 2 here are so similar (actually the N803 is more expensive than
> > the M802 by a few thousands, I think).
>
> Just read in the HiVi that in Japan, the N803 is selling at 80,000 Yens, which
> is about HK$37K but less tax in HK would be around $25K. So your calculation is
> correct. The HiVi gives very good rating to its very deep and vivid sound
> stage which I do believe. This is already characteristic of the N801/2.
It really is unbelievable that the N803 is only 35% of N802. But on the
other hand, if N805 is selling at $15K, then N804 and N805 should be
priced at around $22K and $35K, that would provide a reasonable bridge
to the $68K N802.
>
> > But according to the B&W owners manual, the matrix series speakers should be
> > placed at least 0.5M from the back wall for two reasons: control of bass
> > boom and better soundstage depth. I just moved my 803 to about 52cm (was
> > 40cm) from the back wall and the depth increase was great. But like you
> > said, in my living room bass boom was never a problem as there is ample room
> > for them to breath.
>
When compare to TK's system, Richard's N803 is loose and boom.
> One thing I forgot to tell is that although my 801 was placed less than 1'
> against the back wall, both speakers had ample side space which was more than 4'
> from the side wall. Anyway, I have now changed the config after installing the
> D50 projector.
And that is the config I persuaded TK to try even before I visit his
place for the first time.
>
> > The dimension you mentioned are quite similar to what I have now...83" apart
> > (tweeter center to center) and approx. 90" listener to frontal center.
> >
> > > Please accept my invitation to my humble abode for an audition...love to
> > > have a more diverse opinion from other audiophiles, especially someone who
> > > has so much experience with the B&W Matrix series!
> >
> > >Thanks for your invitation. I'll get Leehc to organize. In return, if you
> > like
> > >to try out your exquisite 300B in my place, this can also be arranged.
> > BTW, >why is that this 300B so expensive to make, over $20K?
> >
> > I'd love that, but we'll have to wait till after Chinese New Year as I am
> > going to (deleted for protection of personal information reasons)..unless you
> > are anxious as me and would like tocome over sometime tomorrow or Wednesday
> > evening!
>
> Not at all. Just take your time to enjoy the holiday. I am sure that there
> will be some surprise for you after your return. I have to do some calibration
> to my D50 these few nights as to get the best from it.
>
> > Actually, the amp's cost was something in the 12K neighbouhood...which is
> > not so expensive considering only the finest componentry ws used in the
> > construction of the amp...Kimber caps, Elna Cerefine, ELMA stepped volume
> > with Holco 1% resistors, Mullard NOS ECC32, Mullard Holland metal base NOS
> > GZ34....to name a few!
>
> That is more of the reason to try it out with such exotic components.
>
> > >Nicholas Ong is using a Matrix 801S3 and he said the sound has been very
> > well
> > >tamed. May be we can have a Matrix merry go round.
> >
> > The "Matrix merry go around"was suggested a while back (since in our circle
> > here there are a lot of Matrix users) by AndyKong but somehow never took
> > off. Guess they were waiting for the 300B PP to be born. Maybe we should
> > call another party after Chinese New Year?
>
> Andy has in his mail proposed to hold this meeting and the timing is OK with me
> after the Chinese New Year. After all it is only 2 weeks from now and we family
> man need to find some time to accompany our dear wife to go shopping, after what
> we've done to her during the past year and thanking her for allowing us to do
> unto ourselves with all these hifi/hivi ups and downs.
>
> TK Chan
And it is time to have a Chinese New Year gathering/dinner/visit for
HKRAV, make sure it host in Feb otherwise it will be too late for red
pockets.
Andy KONG
TK Chan
The Egglestonework is amazing. It is a cute little floorstanding (e.g.,
Rosa vs 802) and when drive with Mark system, it simply give you the
sound that you can only find in speaker that are 100% larger. I have
recommended Egglestonework to Ricky and it is up to him to decide now.
Take a look a Excel. Mark is certainly a very good match, if not the
best.
I have heard the N801 and will give the N802 a try. But in return, I
would suggest you to audition some of the speaker I have listed,
especially JM Lab Utopia, Egglestonework Rosa, and Hales Trans 5/8.
Otherwise it will be difficult to discuss as you haven't heard these
speaker when I come back to discuss with you.
>
> > >Can I describe the Nautilus 801/2 the most tube sound spkrs without the need of
> > >tube amp? For the N801/2 with the tweeter and midrange drivers both of
> > >Nautilus design, the sound is so smooth and sweet that none of the B&W spkrs
> > >before can match. The N803 and below uses only the Nautilus tweeter but the
> > >cabinet is also of elliptical design which, according to Andy Kong, is one of
> > >the best spkr cabinet designs. So coupled with the matrix construction, they
> > >should yield a performance exceeding any previous series. Only complaint is the
> > >price being out of proportion.
> >
> > I though the N801/2 were describe as the one of the more neutral
> > sounding speaker, in that case, I wouldn't say it is tube sounding
> > speaker. And from my brief encounter with N801, it is not the a very
> > sweet sounding speaker to me, but the tonal balance is certainly very
> > pleasing.
>
> Yes, I agree that this can be another way to describe the N801/802.
>
> > I did mentioned my ideal speaker cabinet is elliptical, but I was
> > referring to an egg-shap enclousure, the N series only has an
> > elliptical cross-section. Neverthelessness, it is a very good design
> > and certainly more expensive to build when compare to rectanglar
> > cabinet. But on the other hand, there are many speaker with that type
> > of cabinets, I think Celestion Kingston was one of the first
> > manufacturer manage that and they used moulded Corian as speaker
> > enclosure, definitely better than MDF in terms of resonance control.
>
> Not entirely agree. The Corian is a much easier material to work with insofar as
> molding is concerned. But working with MDF to form a uniform elliptical shape as
> big as the N801/802 cabinet is not anything easy. Besides, Corian doesn't seem to me
> of any good material for hifi use. It is too light and too stiff like carbon fibre.
> Mass does play an important part in sound reproduction.
Not true. The Corian is a very very good material for HiFi usage. It
is not heavy. But please re-consider the issue of weight first. Why do
we want massive enclosure or cabinet? Becasue we want to minimise the
effect resonance. For example, Thiel and Hales use concrete to build
their speaker baffle, as the massive baffle will be able to tame the
resonance caused by the driver units. But on the other hand, Corian,
though is light, is very very good in handling resoncnce. It is a very
dense material and is almost imute to resonance. If you have access to
Corian source, I strongly suggest you to try replace the MDF board in
your room tune rack with Corian board, it is really significant better
than changing it to marbles or any other natural material. I have tried
that before and I strongly recommend this.
And when compare a one-piece moulded Corian cabinet to 1" MDF assembled
cabinet, I'll definitely put my money on the Corian, even at 2:1 bet.
ATC offer something unique here, it is accurate and uncoloured, it is
not sweet and it is not suppose to be sweet when they design it as
studio monitor. The texture is very strong and it can be play at
extreme sound pressure and unreasonble placement without causing much
problem. But I don't see a sense of uniquness on N805. It is a high
quality product, but not an unique product by any means. It appeal to
someone and yet you have a lot of choice at that range. On the other
hand, if you like ATC, there is no replacement.
>
> > >> That said, I think I will like the 802 even better than the 801. Why? I
> > >> think less is actually more when it comes to crossover design (and so is amp
> > >> design). Think of it this way, if you can do the same with less components,
> > >> why add more to complicate things?
> > >
> > >You may be right but not exactly if the simplified circuitry is a compromise. I
> > >am incompetent to draw any conclusion as I am no technical guy. May be if you
> > >have the opportunity of seeing both 801 and 802's crossover, do have an
> > >examination of the circuitry. I am interested to know if I have unfairly
> > >represented my old 802.
> >
> > Come on guys, you don't judge on the quality of a cross-over by the
> > size of the PCB. Let's stop it right here.
>
> Size does matter, as told repeatedly in the movie Gozilla.
Not size of PCB or number of components in cross-over.
The biggest selling point should be "minimum component on the direct
signal path", or no crossover at all.
I am not joking, dig out your mannual and verify that. Your mark should
rated at ABOVE 900 in damping factor, and I believe that is across the
whole audio spectrum (which means at certain frequency ragne it might go
beyond thousand). This is not the most horifying figure. Crown Studio
Reference, another amplifier which should work very well with your
speaker, is rated at 20,000 (not a typo), I am so impressed that I still
keep a copy of the chart of the Crown Reference. The Crown Reference I
is rated at 750wpc @ 8ohm, Reference II is rated at 375wpc @ 8ohm. I
believe the Reference II is only $15K.
Damping Factor 50 is consider as medium to high for tube amplifier. For
Sigle End Amplifier, it can drop to down 10~20. That's why when Richard
said his 300B SETA can handle the 803 with good bass, I laugh.
>
> > >> Please accept my invitation to my humble abode for an audition...love to
> > >> have a more diverse opinion from other audiophiles, especially someone who
> > >> has so much experience with the B&W Matrix series!
> > >
> > >Thanks for your invitation. I'll get Leehc to organize. In return, if you like
> > >to try out your exquisite 300B in my place, this can also be arranged. BTW, why
> > >is that this 300B so expensive to make, over $20K?
> > >
> > >Nicholas Ong is using a Matrix 801S3 and he said the sound has been very well
> > >tamed. May be we can have a Matrix merry go round.
> > >
> > >TK Chan
> >
> > I did propose something like this previously. We can have
> >
> > M803 at Richard's place
> > M802 at Chris' place
> > M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
> > AB compare with Mark 23.5
>
> We do own Chris a visit.
>
> TK Chan
Yes we do.
Andy KONG
TK Chan
> The Egglestonework is amazing. It is a cute little floorstanding (e.g.,
> Rosa vs 802) and when drive with Mark system, it simply give you the
> sound that you can only find in speaker that are 100% larger. I have
> recommended Egglestonework to Ricky and it is up to him to decide now.
> Take a look a Excel. Mark is certainly a very good match, if not the
> best.
>
> I have heard the N801 and will give the N802 a try. But in return, I
> would suggest you to audition some of the speaker I have listed,
> especially JM Lab Utopia, Egglestonework Rosa, and Hales Trans 5/8.
> Otherwise it will be difficult to discuss as you haven't heard these
> speaker when I come back to discuss with you.
It sounds a bit complicated to me. Please forgive me for I am a simple people.
> > Not entirely agree. The Corian is a much easier material to work with insofar as
> > molding is concerned. But working with MDF to form a uniform elliptical shape as
> > big as the N801/802 cabinet is not anything easy. Besides, Corian doesn't seem to me
>
> > of any good material for hifi use. It is too light and too stiff like carbon fibre.
> > Mass does play an important part in sound reproduction.
>
> Not true. The Corian is a very very good material for HiFi usage. It
> is not heavy. But please re-consider the issue of weight first. Why do
> we want massive enclosure or cabinet? Becasue we want to minimise the
> effect resonance. For example, Thiel and Hales use concrete to build
> their speaker baffle, as the massive baffle will be able to tame the
> resonance caused by the driver units. But on the other hand, Corian,
> though is light, is very very good in handling resoncnce. It is a very
> dense material and is almost imute to resonance. If you have access to
> Corian source, I strongly suggest you to try replace the MDF board in
> your room tune rack with Corian board, it is really significant better
> than changing it to marbles or any other natural material. I have tried
> that before and I strongly recommend this.
The mass is important as a stabilizing factor. That is my understanding. I didn't use
Corian for my kitchen table top otherwise I may have a feel of it.
> And when compare a one-piece moulded Corian cabinet to 1" MDF assembled
> cabinet, I'll definitely put my money on the Corian, even at 2:1 bet.
You are not going to win and please remit your 2:1 bet to me asap. Corian is very easy to
manage. It can be molded but it can also be seamlessly joint using special cement. Then the
whole thing can be polished, cut or whatever shape without seeing any joint line at all.
Corian existed in power form so it can be injected into any other form of a mold. Original
Corian sheets are selling at over $1.5K for 12" X 18" but in our Mainland China, very
similar material is selling at less than 1/2 this price.
> > > Frankly, the N805 is too pricy for a bookshelf. It is actually very
> > > close to the Cello Elves, which is a great bookshelf speaker of all
> > > time. And Nic probabably will say at this price range, nothing can
> > > beat a used Sonus Faber Extrema, right?
> >
> > Yes, I agree that the N805 is pricey but don't forget all ATCs are model to model
> > more pricey than the Nautilus series while still remaining on the 'old cake' stage
> > of construction.
>
> ATC offer something unique here, it is accurate and uncoloured, it is
> not sweet and it is not suppose to be sweet when they design it as
> studio monitor. The texture is very strong and it can be play at
> extreme sound pressure and unreasonble placement without causing much
> problem. But I don't see a sense of uniquness on N805. It is a high
> quality product, but not an unique product by any means. It appeal to
> someone and yet you have a lot of choice at that range. On the other
> hand, if you like ATC, there is no replacement.
You are probably right but the same is true for B&W speakers or any other brand.
> > >
> > > I did propose something like this previously. We can have
> > >
> > > M803 at Richard's place
> > > M802 at Chris' place
> > > M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
> > > AB compare with Mark 23.5
And Nic's 801S3 too.
> > We do owe Chris a visit.
>
> Yes we do.
Richard proposed after Chinese New Year. I second.
TK Chan
doctorjohn
amp that can do the job.
I just acquired a used pair of (original) ATC SCM20 with Sound Anchor stands at a very good
price. I used my M7/M9 (re-issue) and in my 200 sq ft living room the sound is simply
STUNNING. I agree with every aspect of Andy's summary. The most amazing thing is that it
reveals the tremendous difference between CDs, more than ANY speaker I have heard, old or
current. And one can EASILY hear the minor flaws in the recordings, like momentary
saturation. Also as said, you can place them anywhere without worrying about booming,
despite the fact that they have so much bass. Already irreplaceable for me.
> Andy Kong's response:
R.Mui
Richard
doctorjohn æ’°å¯«æ–¼æ–‡ç« <36B69C3F...@my-dejanews.com>...
>Glad Andy said that. The ATC speakers at current prices are bargains,
provided you have an
>amp that can do the job.
>
>I just acquired a used pair of (original) ATC SCM20 with Sound Anchor
stands at a very good
>price. I used my M7/M9 (re-issue) and in my 200 sq ft living room the sound
is simply
>STUNNING. I agree with every aspect of Andy's summary. The most amazing
thing is that it
>reveals the tremendous difference between CDs, more than ANY speaker I have
heard, old or
>current. And one can EASILY hear the minor flaws in the recordings, like
momentary
>saturation. Also as said, you can place them anywhere without worrying
about booming,
>despite the fact that they have so much bass. Already irreplaceable for me.
>
>> Andy Kong's response:
>>
TK Chan
On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:26:58 +0800,
Andy Kong wrote:
>
>> The Egglestonework is amazing. It is a cute little floorstanding (e.g.,
>> Rosa vs 802) and when drive with Mark system, it simply give you the
>> sound that you can only find in speaker that are 100% larger. I have
>> recommended Egglestonework to Ricky and it is up to him to decide now.
>> Take a look a Excel. Mark is certainly a very good match, if not the
>> best.
>>
>> I have heard the N801 and will give the N802 a try. But in return, I
>> would suggest you to audition some of the speaker I have listed,
>> especially JM Lab Utopia, Egglestonework Rosa, and Hales Trans 5/8.
>> Otherwise it will be difficult to discuss as you haven't heard these
>> speaker when I come back to discuss with you.
>
>It sounds a bit complicated to me. Please forgive me for I am a simple people.
No, forgive not granted, ha ha ha
This is quite simple indeed, you said 802is good, I propose other
alternatives at similar price range, you ask me to go to hear the N802
myself, I said yes, I'll do that, but in return you should give the
speaker I suggested an audition as well, otherwise, when I come back,
I said "N802 is not open (just an illustrate) when compare to that
speaker, but you never heard them at all, so we can't carry out a
discussion.
>
>> > Not entirely agree. The Corian is a much easier material to work with insofar as
>> > molding is concerned. But working with MDF to form a uniform elliptical shape as
>> > big as the N801/802 cabinet is not anything easy. Besides, Corian doesn't seem to me
>>
>> > of any good material for hifi use. It is too light and too stiff like carbon fibre.
>> > Mass does play an important part in sound reproduction.
>>
>> Not true. The Corian is a very very good material for HiFi usage. It
>> is not heavy. But please re-consider the issue of weight first. Why do
>> we want massive enclosure or cabinet? Becasue we want to minimise the
>> effect resonance. For example, Thiel and Hales use concrete to build
>> their speaker baffle, as the massive baffle will be able to tame the
>> resonance caused by the driver units. But on the other hand, Corian,
>> though is light, is very very good in handling resoncnce. It is a very
>> dense material and is almost imute to resonance. If you have access to
>> Corian source, I strongly suggest you to try replace the MDF board in
>> your room tune rack with Corian board, it is really significant better
>> than changing it to marbles or any other natural material. I have tried
>> that before and I strongly recommend this.
>
>The mass is important as a stabilizing factor. That is my understanding. I didn't use
>Corian for my kitchen table top otherwise I may have a feel of it.
>
>> And when compare a one-piece moulded Corian cabinet to 1" MDF assembled
>> cabinet, I'll definitely put my money on the Corian, even at 2:1 bet.
>
>You are not going to win and please remit your 2:1 bet to me asap. Corian is very easy to
>manage. It can be molded but it can also be seamlessly joint using special cement. Then the
>whole thing can be polished, cut or whatever shape without seeing any joint line at all.
>Corian existed in power form so it can be injected into any other form of a mold. Original
>Corian sheets are selling at over $1.5K for 12" X 18" but in our Mainland China, very
>similar material is selling at less than 1/2 this price.
>
When I built my HiFi rack, I have tried (several months) to locate a
supplier for Corian block at reasoable price but failed. The best
offer I got was 18"X24", 1" thick (i.e., two ply of 1/2" thick Corian
glued together, polished top and side, and four large hole drilled,
min order 10 pieces) at $1800 each. I used Corian board during alot
of audition, and I have access to a DIY pre-amp. with Corian chassic,
so I do know the story about Corian. And I can confident that between
moulded Corian cabinet (i.e., the one from Celestion Kinston) with a
MDF assembled Cabinet, I know where to put my money.
>> > > Frankly, the N805 is too pricy for a bookshelf. It is actually very
>> > > close to the Cello Elves, which is a great bookshelf speaker of all
>> > > time. And Nic probabably will say at this price range, nothing can
>> > > beat a used Sonus Faber Extrema, right?
>> >
>> > Yes, I agree that the N805 is pricey but don't forget all ATCs are model to model
>> > more pricey than the Nautilus series while still remaining on the 'old cake' stage
>> > of construction.
>>
>> ATC offer something unique here, it is accurate and uncoloured, it is
>> not sweet and it is not suppose to be sweet when they design it as
>> studio monitor. The texture is very strong and it can be play at
>> extreme sound pressure and unreasonble placement without causing much
>> problem. But I don't see a sense of uniquness on N805. It is a high
>> quality product, but not an unique product by any means. It appeal to
>> someone and yet you have a lot of choice at that range. On the other
>> hand, if you like ATC, there is no replacement.
>
>You are probably right but the same is true for B&W speakers or any other brand.
If you like sweet sounding bookshelf speaker, try the Focus Audio
FS68. If you don't need bass and punch, LS3/5a and Tablette is also
very sweet and pleasing.
>
>> > >
>> > > I did propose something like this previously. We can have
>> > >
>> > > M803 at Richard's place
>> > > M802 at Chris' place
>> > > M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
>> > > AB compare with Mark 23.5
>
>And Nic's 801S3 too.
>
>> > We do owe Chris a visit.
>>
>> Yes we do.
>
>Richard proposed after Chinese New Year. I second.
>
>TK Chan
So I can sit and wait for the party now, what a good news.
Andy KONG
TK Chan
> >
> >> The Egglestonework is amazing. It is a cute little floorstanding (e.g.,
> >> Rosa vs 802) and when drive with Mark system, it simply give you the
> >> sound that you can only find in speaker that are 100% larger. I have
> >> recommended Egglestonework to Ricky and it is up to him to decide now.
> >> Take a look a Excel. Mark is certainly a very good match, if not the
> >> best.
I saw the picture of the Rosa in the mag. It is cute and perhaps too cute. Hope that Ricky
would get one to replace his VR4.
> >> I have heard the N801 and will give the N802 a try. But in return, I
> >> would suggest you to audition some of the speaker I have listed,
> >> especially JM Lab Utopia, Egglestonework Rosa, and Hales Trans 5/8.
> >> Otherwise it will be difficult to discuss as you haven't heard these
> >> speaker when I come back to discuss with you.
> >
> >It sounds a bit complicated to me. Please forgive me for I am a simple person.
>
> No, forgive not granted, ha ha ha
>
> This is quite simple indeed, you said 802is good, I propose other
> alternatives at similar price range, you ask me to go to hear the N802
> myself, I said yes, I'll do that, but in return you should give the
> speaker I suggested an audition as well, otherwise, when I come back,
> I said "N802 is not open (just an illustrate) when compare to that
> speaker, but you never heard them at all, so we can't carry out a
> discussion.
Yes, I'll try to do that.
How about the Chinese substitutes?
> >> > > Frankly, the N805 is too pricy for a bookshelf. It is actually very
> >> > > close to the Cello Elves, which is a great bookshelf speaker of all
> >> > > time. And Nic probabably will say at this price range, nothing can
> >> > > beat a used Sonus Faber Extrema, right?
> >> >
> >> > Yes, I agree that the N805 is pricey but don't forget all ATCs are model to model
> >> > more pricey than the Nautilus series while still remaining on the 'old cake' stage
> >> > of construction.
> >>
> >> ATC offer something unique here, it is accurate and uncoloured, it is
> >> not sweet and it is not suppose to be sweet when they design it as
> >> studio monitor. The texture is very strong and it can be play at
> >> extreme sound pressure and unreasonble placement without causing much
> >> problem. But I don't see a sense of uniquness on N805. It is a high
> >> quality product, but not an unique product by any means. It appeal to
> >> someone and yet you have a lot of choice at that range. On the other
> >> hand, if you like ATC, there is no replacement.
> >
> >You are probably right but the same is true for B&W speakers or any other brand.
>
> If you like sweet sounding bookshelf speaker, try the Focus Audio
> FS68. If you don't need bass and punch, LS3/5a and Tablette is also
> very sweet and pleasing.
May be I am physically a small guy, I want to get things big!!! Doctor John and Doctor Lee, is
this called psychological reflex, reaction or interaction? Please advise.
> >> > > I did propose something like this previously. We can have
> >> > >
> >> > > M803 at Richard's place
> >> > > M802 at Chris' place
> >> > > M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
> >> > > AB compare with Mark 23.5
> >
> >And Nic's 801S3 too.
> >
> >> > We do owe Chris a visit.
> >>
> >> Yes we do.
> >
> >Richard proposed after Chinese New Year. I second.
> >
> So I can sit and wait for the party now, what a good news.
No, no, no, no. You are not spared. You are the one to get things organized.
TK Chan
Tim
By comparison, it also show all the problem with Andy Law's system. Andy,
since you are keeping your 7+9, maybe you should consider to change the
Proac 2.5 for the ATC SCM20 (not the SCM20T).
Tim
doctorjohn wrote in message <36B69C3F...@my-dejanews.com>...
>Glad Andy said that. The ATC speakers at current prices are bargains,
provided you have an
>amp that can do the job.
>
>I just acquired a used pair of (original) ATC SCM20 with Sound Anchor
stands at a very good
>price. I used my M7/M9 (re-issue) and in my 200 sq ft living room the sound
is simply
>STUNNING. I agree with every aspect of Andy's summary. The most amazing
thing is that it
>reveals the tremendous difference between CDs, more than ANY speaker I have
heard, old or
>current. And one can EASILY hear the minor flaws in the recordings, like
momentary
>saturation. Also as said, you can place them anywhere without worrying
about booming,
>despite the fact that they have so much bass. Already irreplaceable for me.
>
>> Andy Kong's response:
>>
Tim
He is keeping his wife and mistress under the same roof!
Tim
R.Mui wrote in message <796aq6$5to$1...@imsp009a.netvigator.com>...
>Does that mean a divorce with La Scala? ^_^
>
>Richard
>
>doctorjohn æ’°å¯«æ–¼æ–‡ç« <36B69C3F...@my-dejanews.com>...
>>Glad Andy said that. The ATC speakers at current prices are bargains,
>provided you have an
>>amp that can do the job.
>>
>>I just acquired a used pair of (original) ATC SCM20 with Sound Anchor
>stands at a very good
>>price. I used my M7/M9 (re-issue) and in my 200 sq ft living room the
sound
>is simply
>>STUNNING. I agree with every aspect of Andy's summary. The most amazing
>thing is that it
>>reveals the tremendous difference between CDs, more than ANY speaker I
have
>heard, old or
>>current. And one can EASILY hear the minor flaws in the recordings, like
>momentary
>>saturation. Also as said, you can place them anywhere without worrying
>about booming,
>>despite the fact that they have so much bass. Already irreplaceable for
me.
>>
>>> Andy Kong's response:
>>>
N C Ong
>
> I have heard Dr Johns new system and it is really THAT good.
>
> By comparison, it also show all the problem with Andy Law's system. Andy,
> since you are keeping your 7+9, maybe you should consider to change the
> Proac 2.5 for the ATC SCM20 (not the SCM20T).
>
if the XLR connection is used. In Andy Law's system the Processor 3 is
connected to Marantz 7 using RCA. This is the fatal flaw.
Nic
Felix M.C. Li
This may be one of the factors. Fatal or not is unknown.
There are compromises in the system, and the ProAc 2.5 seems to be
too power hungry that I have reconsidered my plan after visiting two
of the systems using a pair of 2.5.
7+9 just cannot feed it well. Triode mode sound smooth but lacks
dynamics, Pentode mode gives better dynamics but sound rough. Both
cases are no good IMO.
Felix
TK Chan
> Andy Kong wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The Egglestonework is amazing. It is a cute little floorstanding (e.g.,
> >> >> Rosa vs 802) and when drive with Mark system, it simply give you the
> >> >> sound that you can only find in speaker that are 100% larger. I have
> >> >> recommended Egglestonework to Ricky and it is up to him to decide now.
> >> >> Take a look a Excel. Mark is certainly a very good match, if not the
> >> >> best.
> >
> >I saw the picture of the Rosa in the mag. It is cute and perhaps too cute. Hope that Ricky
> >would get one to replace his VR4.
>
> Too cute? Will that cause any bad effect?
>
> I actually have persuade Ricky to consider the bigger Andra.
>
> >
> >> >> I have heard the N801 and will give the N802 a try. But in return, I
> >> >> would suggest you to audition some of the speaker I have listed,
> >> >> especially JM Lab Utopia, Egglestonework Rosa, and Hales Trans 5/8.
> >> >> Otherwise it will be difficult to discuss as you haven't heard these
> >> >> speaker when I come back to discuss with you.
> >> >
> >> >It sounds a bit complicated to me. Please forgive me for I am a simple person.
> >>
> >> No, forgive not granted, ha ha ha
> >>
> >> This is quite simple indeed, you said 802is good, I propose other
> >> alternatives at similar price range, you ask me to go to hear the N802
> >> myself, I said yes, I'll do that, but in return you should give the
> >> speaker I suggested an audition as well, otherwise, when I come back,
> >> I said "N802 is not open (just an illustrate) when compare to that
> >> speaker, but you never heard them at all, so we can't carry out a
> >> discussion.
> >
> >Yes, I'll try to do that.
>
> That's great. And be reminded Egglestone Rosa and JM Lab Utopia are
> good when mate with your Mark. Hales is good with muscular amplifier as
> well, haven't try on Mark but 90% match (by speculation).
> Don't have the connection at that time, I don't mind to reconsider that
> as I got enquiry from reader about my HiFi rack after it published. And
> we are seriously trying to find Corian board to make an ultimate
> version. Do you have the lead for that?
>
> >
> >> >> > > Frankly, the N805 is too pricy for a bookshelf. It is actually very
> >> >> > > close to the Cello Elves, which is a great bookshelf speaker of all
> >> >> > > time. And Nic probabably will say at this price range, nothing can
> >> >> > > beat a used Sonus Faber Extrema, right?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, I agree that the N805 is pricey but don't forget all ATCs are model to model
> >> >> > more pricey than the Nautilus series while still remaining on the 'old cake' stage
> >> >> > of construction.
> >> >>
> >> >> ATC offer something unique here, it is accurate and uncoloured, it is
> >> >> not sweet and it is not suppose to be sweet when they design it as
> >> >> studio monitor. The texture is very strong and it can be play at
> >> >> extreme sound pressure and unreasonble placement without causing much
> >> >> problem. But I don't see a sense of uniquness on N805. It is a high
> >> >> quality product, but not an unique product by any means. It appeal to
> >> >> someone and yet you have a lot of choice at that range. On the other
> >> >> hand, if you like ATC, there is no replacement.
> >> >
> >> >You are probably right but the same is true for B&W speakers or any other brand.
> >>
> >> If you like sweet sounding bookshelf speaker, try the Focus Audio
> >> FS68. If you don't need bass and punch, LS3/5a and Tablette is also
> >> very sweet and pleasing.
> >
> >May be I am physically a small guy, I want to get things big!!! Doctor John and Doctor Lee, is
> >this called psychological reflex, reaction or interaction? Please advise.
> >
>
> John use La Scala, and Lee use KLF30, I use AMP-1 and you use 801, none
> of these are small speaker by any measurement. But I weight 200 lb (bad
> news indeed), so this is hardly a rule, at least no co-relation among
> these examples.
>
> >> >> > > I did propose something like this previously. We can have
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > M803 at Richard's place
> >> >> > > M802 at Chris' place
> >> >> > > M801 at TK's place and we can bring Chris' Mark 332 to TK's place for
> >> >> > > AB compare with Mark 23.5
> >> >
> >> >And Nic's 801S3 too.
> >> >
> >> >> > We do owe Chris a visit.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes we do.
> >> >
> >> >Richard proposed after Chinese New Year. I second.
> >> >
> >> So I can sit and wait for the party now, what a good news.
> >
> >No, no, no, no. You are not spared. You are the one to get things organized.
> >
> >TK Chan
> >
>
> Why, WHY, W-H-Y? I think it is about time for you guys to move la.
>
> Andy KONG
doctorjohn
concubine(s). See, La Scala is STILL my wife. ATC has moved to become favorite
concubine. They live together in the living room (concubine blocks wife a little
bit). In the smaller room I rotate the other concubines, usually other people's
discarded wives and concubines. Occasionally a borrowed affair.
It is unlikely I will divorce La Scala or ATC any time soon.
doctorjohn
heavy metals!
TK Chan
> Hi,
>
> >> How about add a little section for making fun with B&W Matrix HT?
> >> I am using 802S3, HTM and 805 plus a polk audio sub-woofer.
> >>
> >You are most welcome. This is the full B&W HT system Andy Kong has been urging
> > me
> >to install.
>
> Thanks. The Nautilus series also have launch a HTM and HTM2 but it also cost
> 2.5 times of the old HTM. Eager to know is it whole for $$$$$?
No idea of the expensiveness. May have been due to the Nautilus tweeter
and cabinet. I am not going to install the 5.1 system until I got the
logistics sorted out. It is too complicated for me to handle, with
sounds flying around and thunders exploring from above and below. I
hope I am 20 years younger to enjoy these excitements. I know I am
going to let Andy down for a long long long long time, may be even
frustration with me, the stubborn guy. Be prepared to get mad, Andy.
My next goal is to get the turntable turning again. I shall be in need
of a phono amp. I have seen some suggestions from you guys but doesn't
seem to have any conclusion. I have the ML 25S in mind. I've checked
Madrigal's site and supposedly this is still a current model but wonders
if any stock is available.
To Richard Mui, any possibility of building a balanced tube phono amp?
Take this as a marketing initiatives: instead of surveying on the
current demand of such item in the market (it is not going to be
positive anyway), it worths to create an impulse to turn back to LP
listening if a good phono amp is readily available. LP is still in the
heart of many audiophiles. LP has a much better return on good sound
per dollar spent on equipment.
TK Chan
doctorjohn
Having experienced Captain's 2.5 and then read (only) about Andy Law's 2.5, I
became really curious and concerned. I was curious because I don't recall
magazine articles saying the 2.5 as being particularly difficult. I was
concerned because I have the M7/9 also.
I had discussions with several people, including Nic, and basically I too think
the Processor 3 should not be used in SE mode, just like ANY balanced SF gears.
Also, in both cases there is a common denominator. Both have SF before the
preamps.
Carry On used to sell only SE/RCA cables, until the SF all balanced series of
course. At first Carry On used only the SE cables to connect the DAC/Line/Power
etc. I heard the Line 1 and 2, and the Power 1 and 2. Never the 3s. The sound
was uniformly terrible (to me). I had been visiting Carry On since the shop
opened and I can say those were the worst things I have ever heard.
Particularly bad was one time when he used the Line 1/Power1 with the LS5/12.
Terrible. Finally Carry On got balanced cables and according to Mr Chiang it's
another ballgame. Unfortunately (maybe actually fortunate) I never got to hear
at Carry On the balanced topography, as he was selling too many SE Parasound
and self-made SE cables (more profits I guess) to have time for balanced mode.
In those days, thanks to the terrible "Spring" Yeung, SF just walked out of
Carry On's door. Customers only came in and ask for price and then paid.
Product level by level product, SF has never been strong on dynamics. Compare
any SFL signature to the low level ARC LS preamps, LS1, LS7, LS8. Compare
Transdac with Audio Alchemy 3.0. Compare SFD to others. Compare Line 1 to LS15.
They may play loud with an easy load, but they play flat. And I have heard in
my own house SFL-1, SFL-1 signature, TRANSDAC, SFD-1, SFS-40, SFS-50. I doubt
the balanced gears are dramatically better than the SE gears.
It would be easy to test this out. Take a respectable DAC to Andy Law's house
and find out. I would be most curious.
When I saw the ATCs I was really tortured because I remember what people posted
about the 7/9 +2.5. I was worried because all my speakers were rather easy to
drive and the 7/9 can drive them to ear-splitting level. Fortunately the guy
just let me take them home (not paid for) and I connected them in penthode and
then TRIODE mode and NO PROBLEM!
If the 7/9 can drive the infamously difficult ATC, I would guess why shouldn't
they do the job with 2.5? But I have a few other hypothesis too:
(a) Look for balance. Many Rolls Royce tubes have poor dynamics. AND sometimes
with "beautiful" treble tubes, too many makes for a coarse sound.
(b)The M7 is NOT a particularly dynamically steady preamp. At higher volumes,
it falls apart a bit. This is inherent in the design and is true for the
original ones also.
(c)Make sure the power tubes are in good condition. Many "NOS" are not.
N C Ong wrote:
> It is not ProAc's fault. Sonic Frontiers equipment can only perform well
> if the XLR connection is used. In Andy Law's system the Processor 3 is
> connected to Marantz 7 using RCA. This is the fatal flaw.
doctorjohn
reasonable price. Just takes a little time to find one. It is frequently seen in USA
audio markets.
TK Chan wrote:
> ...any possibility of building a balanced tube phono amp?
and...@ctimail.com
> I have been very curious regarding the previous postings of Response 2.5.
> Having experienced Captain's 2.5 and then read (only) about Andy Law's 2.5, I
> became really curious and concerned. I was curious because I don't recall
> magazine articles saying the 2.5 as being particularly difficult. I was
> concerned because I have the M7/9 also.
Being an user of ProAc 2.5 for one year, I am competent to say 2.5 is not a
speaker particularly difficult to be pushed. Of course if you are using 300B
SE amp, it could be a problem. I have been using Unison 845, M8B and M9 to
push my 2.5, no power problem is encountered. But in term of sound stage and
dynamic, M9 is better then M8B, M8B is better then Unison 845. for personal
taste, I prefer M9 in triode mode. The sound of 845 is too thin, for my
taste.
> I had discussions with several people, including Nic, and basically I too think
> the Processor 3 should not be used in SE mode, just like ANY balanced SF gears.
> Also, in both cases there is a common denominator. Both have SF before the
> preamps.
I have been using Processor 3 for one and half year with its RCA output only.
I used my Ortoforn Rohmann for comparison in the past and using shure V15VxMR
for comparison now, I am very satisfied with its sound. I have no idea of its
balance output's sound.
Few months ago I borrowed a Wadia 27 to compare with my Processor 3 at home.
The definition and sound stage of Wadia 27 was better than Processor 3. In
other aspects, Processor 3 was not inferior to Wadia 27. In term of
musicallity, which I consider to be the most important thing, Processor 3 is
no doublt the better. After the comparison, I made up my mind to use my
Processor 3 for 2-3 years until the new DSD of likewise system available.
> It would be easy to test this out. Take a respectable DAC to Andy Law's house
> and find out. I would be most curious.
Welcomed. I am curious too. I am free during Lunar New Year.
> Make sure the power tubes are in good condition. Many "NOS" are not.
Of course. The power tubes need matching too. That is why I spent over
$5,000- -HK to buy a power tube matcher from USA.
> > Sonic Frontiers equipment can only perform well
> > if the XLR connection is used. In Andy Law's system the Processor 3 is
> > connected to Marantz 7 using RCA. This is the fatal flaw.
I do not know how good of the balance output. But I am more than satisfied
with its RCA output.
> >> 7+9 just cannot feed it well. Triode mode sound smooth but lacks
> >> dynamics, Pentode mode gives better dynamics but sound rough. Both
> >> cases are no good IMO.
I accept the 7+9 operated in triode mode. Probably I am not very keen in
dynamics.
Andy Law
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Felix M.C. Li
>
> Doctorjohn ,
>
> > I have been very curious regarding the previous postings of Response 2.5.
> > Having experienced Captain's 2.5 and then read (only) about Andy Law's 2.5, I
> > became really curious and concerned. I was curious because I don't recall
> > magazine articles saying the 2.5 as being particularly difficult. I was
> > concerned because I have the M7/9 also.
>
> Being an user of ProAc 2.5 for one year, I am competent to say 2.5 is not a
> speaker particularly difficult to be pushed. Of course if you are using 300B
> SE amp, it could be a problem. I have been using Unison 845, M8B and M9 to
> push my 2.5, no power problem is encountered. But in term of sound stage and
> dynamic, M9 is better then M8B, M8B is better then Unison 845. for personal
> taste, I prefer M9 in triode mode. The sound of 845 is too thin, for my
> taste.
>
The control is a big problem IMO. Lack of control means bass
definition will be lost. But this depends on the music that you
usually listen to, I need a more dynamic system than a very smooth
one. Sometimes I will play orchestra, alternative, rock and roll,
heavy metal and big band jazz. Although the most important ones to
me will be vocal and guitar.
>
> I have been using Processor 3 for one and half year with its RCA output only.
> I used my Ortoforn Rohmann for comparison in the past and using shure V15VxMR
> for comparison now, I am very satisfied with its sound. I have no idea of its
> balance output's sound.
>
> Few months ago I borrowed a Wadia 27 to compare with my Processor 3 at home.
> The definition and sound stage of Wadia 27 was better than Processor 3. In
> other aspects, Processor 3 was not inferior to Wadia 27. In term of
> musicallity, which I consider to be the most important thing, Processor 3 is
> no doublt the better. After the comparison, I made up my mind to use my
> Processor 3 for 2-3 years until the new DSD of likewise system available.
>
Using Wadia's processors RCA output is a waste. Only the XLR should be
used in any case. Ask someone who tried XLR and RCA output of Wadia 27,
he can tell you how bad the RCA out is comparing to the XLR out.
Don't know if SF gears are similar.
>
> > >> 7+9 just cannot feed it well. Triode mode sound smooth but lacks
> > >> dynamics, Pentode mode gives better dynamics but sound rough. Both
> > >> cases are no good IMO.
>
> I accept the 7+9 operated in triode mode. Probably I am not very keen in
> dynamics.
>
Without adequate dynamics, the beats and ups and downs of music
cannot be conveyed very well. Especially those medium to fast pace
songs and music.
Felix
Felix M.C. Li
PH-3 or PH-2 ?
PH-3 or PH-3 SE don't provide balanced outs.
Felix
TK Chan
Any website to get more info? Are they still available new in Hong Kong.
TK Chan
doctorjohn
not a person crazy about these hi-fi values either. Even when people are talking
about dynamics I suspect people are talking about different things. There are
actually so many aspects to it. Not just impact and bass thump. It is also the spread
between the soft and the loud, and the recovery time and speed, and whether the sound
becomes coarse or not. I myself can sacrifice a bit of impact and speed for a smooth
spread. A big orchestral crescendo will give me the answer to what I deem important.
SS like Krell can give a monstrous thump, but they are terrible in giving a sustained
natural sound, just terrible in a crescendo.
Hope to hear your system one of these days.
Felix M.C. Li
>
> "Felix M.C. Li" wrote:
>
> > PH-3 or PH-3 SE don't provide balanced outs.
> >
>
>
I don't know about PH-2, but PH-3 and PH-3 SE is the current models.
They are available from Excel.
But I got a message from a reliable source that the AcousTech PH-1 is the
best amongst the under $20k group. And I saw foreign evaluation on PH-1
rated the best amongst the US$2k phono amp.
From Fi magazine, even PH-3 SE is rated below AcousTech PH-1.
Felix
doctorjohn
people in general are using balanced gears in SE mode!
doctorjohn
Yes, PH-3 is tube and only SE out. Paradoxically, some say the PH-3 is leaner than the
PH-2.
Felix M.C. Li wrote:
> doctorjohn wrote:
> >
> > Why not buy an Audio Research PH-2? Second-hand. It has balanced out. Great sound and
> > reasonable price. Just takes a little time to find one. It is frequently seen in USA
> > audio markets.
> PH-3 or PH-2 ?
doctorjohn
second hand markets. Maybe call Sun Wa in HK? Smaller second-hand shops are unlikely to have
it.
Try these sites:
http://www.audioweb.com/Classified.html
http://www.audioshopper.com/taf/search.taf?_function=form
Actually reasonably often (a few times a year) I see postings at these sites that are
actually audio shops and reliable. You just have to pay shipping and it will be 110V. It is
better to buy in HK if you can find one.
It is very interesting that Audio Research discontinued the PH-2, which is a lot more
complicated than the PH-3 and costlier and replaced it with the cheaper and simpler PH-3. Was
it cost related? or just that phono stages really do not need to be balanced? So many phono
stages are not. Even top line balanced ARC users will have to use the PH-3! If you own the
Reference 1 preamp you still have to use the SE PH-3. For ARC products, go to:
Maybe you can consider a non-SE phono stage? The PH-3 is a bargain, but you may have to spend
some money on the expensive 6922!
TK Chan wrote:
> > > Why not buy an Audio Research PH-2? Second-hand. It has balanced out. Great sound and
> > > reasonable price. Just takes a little time to find one. It is frequently seen in USA
> > > audio markets.
N C Ong
>
> From Fi magazine, even PH-3 SE is rated below AcousTech PH-1.
>
site?
Nic
and...@ctimail.com
> The control is a big problem IMO. Lack of control means bass
> definition will be lost. But this depends on the music that you
> usually listen to, I need a more dynamic system than a very smooth
> one. Sometimes I will play orchestra, alternative, rock and roll,
> heavy metal and big band jazz. Although the most important ones to
> me will be vocal and guitar.
I never listen to rock and roll, and heavy metal music. Big band jazz,
sometimes but not often.
> Using Wadia's processors RCA output is a waste. Only the XLR should be
> used in any case. Ask someone who tried XLR and RCA output of Wadia 27,
> he can tell you how bad the RCA out is comparing to the XLR out.
>
> Don't know if SF gears are similar.
>
If so, RCA input tube amp users can simply ignore Wadia 27. No problem. It
is a big world.
> Without adequate dynamics, the beats and ups and downs of music
> cannot be conveyed very well. Especially those medium to fast pace
> songs and music.
>
Yes. You are right. But this real world is full of compromises.
Andy Law.
King
You can get it from Tower records book store in Time square.
Regards
King
N C Ong wrote in message <36B986...@netvigator.com>...
and...@ctimail.com
> Hope to hear your system one of these days.
You are welcomed.
Andy Law
Felix M.C. Li
>
> Felix,
>
> > The control is a big problem IMO. Lack of control means bass
> > definition will be lost. But this depends on the music that you
> > usually listen to, I need a more dynamic system than a very smooth
> > one. Sometimes I will play orchestra, alternative, rock and roll,
> > heavy metal and big band jazz. Although the most important ones to
> > me will be vocal and guitar.
>
> I never listen to rock and roll, and heavy metal music. Big band jazz,
> sometimes but not often.
>
I listen to them more often than slow music. They are some kinds of
refreshment for me.
> > Using Wadia's processors RCA output is a waste. Only the XLR should be
> > used in any case. Ask someone who tried XLR and RCA output of Wadia 27,
> > he can tell you how bad the RCA out is comparing to the XLR out.
> >
> > Don't know if SF gears are similar.
> >
>
> If so, RCA input tube amp users can simply ignore Wadia 27. No problem. It
> is a big world.
>
Yes, it is a big world, but good DAC with good RCA out is pretty
rare. At least not readily available IMO.
> > Without adequate dynamics, the beats and ups and downs of music
> > cannot be conveyed very well. Especially those medium to fast pace
> > songs and music.
> >
>
> Yes. You are right. But this real world is full of compromises.
>
Sure, but I expected the compromises will be not as much when the
system price is so high. I just wouldn't accept paying so much but
still have to compromise so much.
Felix
Tim
If you mind, I must say that I also don't think your system is "optimised".
Either there is something wrong with the accoustics of your room or that
there is a problem of component mis-match.
Did you try your KEF LS3/5a with the 7+9 in the same room, does it sound
better?
Tim
and...@ctimail.com wrote in message <79cclu$jvi$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Felix,
>
>> The control is a big problem IMO. Lack of control means bass
>> definition will be lost. But this depends on the music that you
>> usually listen to, I need a more dynamic system than a very smooth
>> one. Sometimes I will play orchestra, alternative, rock and roll,
>> heavy metal and big band jazz. Although the most important ones to
>> me will be vocal and guitar.
>
>I never listen to rock and roll, and heavy metal music. Big band jazz,
>sometimes but not often.
>
>
>> Using Wadia's processors RCA output is a waste. Only the XLR should be
>> used in any case. Ask someone who tried XLR and RCA output of Wadia 27,
>> he can tell you how bad the RCA out is comparing to the XLR out.
>>
>> Don't know if SF gears are similar.
>>
>
>If so, RCA input tube amp users can simply ignore Wadia 27. No problem. It
>is a big world.
>
>
>> Without adequate dynamics, the beats and ups and downs of music
>> cannot be conveyed very well. Especially those medium to fast pace
>> songs and music.
>>
>
>Yes. You are right. But this real world is full of compromises.
>
>Andy Law.
and...@ctimail.com
> If you mind, I must say that I also don't think your system is "optimised".
> Either there is something wrong with the accoustics of your room or that
> there is a problem of component mis-match.
I think mostly due to the room acoustic problem, it was too bright. I have
intended to buy or make RPG absorber and diffusor to improve the situation.
But I am just too lazy to do it, and the high price is another point for
consideration.
> Did you try your KEF LS3/5a with the 7+9 in the same room, does it sound
> better?
Yes. The sound is different, but the Proac 2.5 has better tonal balance and
sound more easeful.
BTW, after due consideration, I have ordered a pair of Tannoy Caterburry last
week. Hopefully I could receive it in 2 -3 months time.
Andy Law
and...@ctimail.com
>
> Yes, it is a big world, but good DAC with good RCA out is pretty
> rare. At least not readily available IMO.
>
May be. If so, all tube amp users with no balance input would be very sad.
>
> Sure, but I expected the compromises will be not as much when the
> system price is so high. I just wouldn't accept paying so much but
> still have to compromise so much.
>
>
Well, that is reality.
Tim
>
>BTW, after due consideration, I have ordered a pair of Tannoy Caterburry
last
>week. Hopefully I could receive it in 2 -3 months time.
>
>Andy Law
>
Wow !!! That IS a classic speaker. What is the Tannoy driver used inside the
Caterburry?
That should be a great match for 7+9 with 9 in triode mode.
Tim
and...@ctimail.com
Sorry for my typing mistakes. It should be Tannoy Canterbury 15. It used
the Alcomax 3 version of the classic Tannoy dual concentric driver, same as
the top model Westminister Royal.
I have considered the new Tannoy Churchill which was desinged by a group of
audiophiles in North America. After a breif audition at the showroom, I found
it was a typical contemporary high end sound, which has (my own opinion
only) good definition, depth sound stage, good focus with high dynamic.
Apart from the high price, like it not not is one's own taste. But I would
like to quote what Mr. Ken Ishiwata, Philips/ Marantz Engineer, said during
an interview by Hi Fi World (Magzine):-
"Whatever product you listen to, regardless of cost, if your emotion is
moved by your favourite music when put it on, then this product or system
has a value to you. But if that does not happen, even if the product is
very expensive, then it has no value to you."
I like tradition British speaker sound. Proac2.5 is a modern British speaker
sound. That is.
Any Law.
>
> Wow !!! That IS a classic speaker. What is the Tannoy driver used inside the
> Caterburry?
>
> That should be a great match for 7+9 with 9 in triode mode.
>
> Tim
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
TK Chan
> and...@ctimail.com wrote in message <79eaq9$amc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >
> >BTW, after due consideration, I have ordered a pair of Tannoy Caterburry
>
> last
> >week. Hopefully I could receive it in 2 -3 months time.
> >
> >Andy Law
> >
>
> Wow !!! That IS a classic speaker. What is the Tannoy driver used inside
> the
> Caterburry?
>
> That should be a great match for 7+9 with 9 in triode mode.
Is this the Caterburry 15 I look up in the site. It is a classic speaker
by its look only. I am a bit curious that can it be supported with spikes
or it does need these things at all. It is among the prestige series and
must be expensive. How much is it? The Website said you can have your
name inscribed on the spkrs. Really personal touch.
Haven't heard of a Tannoy before. Hope to listen one day.
TK Chan
Tim
Why don't you consider the old Tannoy speakers made in the 60's or before
and with natural magnet. I understand they can produce great sound and are
all collectable items. There is a sizable following in HK.
Tim
and...@ctimail.com wrote in message <79gaqg$s1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Tim,
>
>Sorry for my typing mistakes. It should be Tannoy Canterbury 15. It used
>the Alcomax 3 version of the classic Tannoy dual concentric driver, same
as
>the top model Westminister Royal.
>
>I have considered the new Tannoy Churchill which was desinged by a group of
>audiophiles in North America. After a breif audition at the showroom, I
found
>it was a typical contemporary high end sound, which has (my own opinion
>only) good definition, depth sound stage, good focus with high dynamic.
>Apart from the high price, like it not not is one's own taste. But I would
>like to quote what Mr. Ken Ishiwata, Philips/ Marantz Engineer, said during
>an interview by Hi Fi World (Magzine):-
>
> "Whatever product you listen to, regardless of cost, if your emotion is
>moved by your favourite music when put it on, then this product or system
>has a value to you. But if that does not happen, even if the product is
>very expensive, then it has no value to you."
>
>I like tradition British speaker sound. Proac2.5 is a modern British
speaker
>sound. That is.
>
>Any Law.
>
>
>>
>> Wow !!! That IS a classic speaker. What is the Tannoy driver used inside
the
>> Caterburry?
>>
>> That should be a great match for 7+9 with 9 in triode mode.
>>
doctorjohn
and...@ctimail.com
It is simply because those speakers in good condition are not readily
available. I do not have patient to wait.
Andy Law
> Why don't you consider the old Tannoy speakers made in the 60's or before
> and with natural magnet. I understand they can produce great sound and are
> all collectable items. There is a sizable following in HK.
>
and...@ctimail.com
> Is this the Caterburry 15 I look up in the site. It is a classic speaker
> by its look only. I am a bit curious that can it be supported with spikes
> or it does need these things at all. It is among the prestige series and
> must be expensive. How much is it? The Website said you can have your
> name inscribed on the spkrs. Really personal touch.
Yes. That is.
At staff price of Dah Cheong Hong, around $60,000-.
> Haven't heard of a Tannoy before. Hope to listen one day.
You are welcomed. But please don't expect high definition and deep sound
stage from this speaker. What I am expecting is a pair of musical speaker
wtih good tonal colour and tonal balance.
Andy Law
Lee HC
and...@ctimail.com wrote in article <79hrqn$56j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> TK Chan,
>
> > Is this the Caterburry 15 I look up in the site. It is a classic speaker
> > by its look only. I am a bit curious that can it be supported with spikes
> > or it does need these things at all. It is among the prestige series and
> > must be expensive. How much is it? The Website said you can have your
> > name inscribed on the spkrs. Really personal touch.
>
> Yes. That is.
Will that be speaker for LIFE?
Something like tattoo that people do neglect & get pain to erase it?
> At staff price of Dah Cheong Hong, around $60,000-.
>
> > Haven't heard of a Tannoy before. Hope to listen one day.
>
> You are welcomed. But please don't expect high definition and deep sound
> stage from this speaker. What I am expecting is a pair of musical speaker
> wtih good tonal colour and tonal balance.
>
> Andy Law
I think Spendor A1, LS5/9.... is smaller & much cheaper musical speaker.
Anyhow, it is also good to have something new to experience.
Do count me in for the audition party.
Lee HC
and...@ctimail.com
>
> Will that be speaker for LIFE?
> Something like tattoo that people do neglect & get pain to erase it?
Tannoy Westminister Royal would be final. However, for the time being my
listening area is not large enough, Canterbury would be more appropriate.
> I think Spendor A1, LS5/9.... is smaller & much cheaper musical speaker.
> Anyhow, it is also good to have something new to experience.
I have no idea of Spendor A1. But I have used Rogers LS 5/9 for a short
while. At that time I found the mid-bass of it was too much. I could not
overcome the problem and later sold it.
Large speaker produces high dynamic and heavy bass of music in an effortless
manner, which a small speaker could not compare. The main drawback is its
size.
> Do count me in for the audition party.
Sure.
Felix M.C. Li
>
> Try the ECM CD of Keith Jarrett "Live at the Blue Note". Trio performance. Beautiful
> work. Well recorded. Even the percussion is so subtle and varied. The recording is
> excellent and very close to what I hear at the actual venue (in New York). The
> performance level is miles above "Jazz" at the pawn shop.
Is there a LP version ? My turntable is my only music source at the
moment.
Felix
TK Chan
> TK Chan,
>
> > Is this the Caterburry 15 I look up in the site. It is a classic speaker
> > by its look only. I am a bit curious that can it be supported with spikes
> > or it does need these things at all. It is among the prestige series and
> > must be expensive. How much is it? The Website said you can have your
> > name inscribed on the spkrs. Really personal touch.
>
> Yes. That is.
>
> At staff price of Dah Cheong Hong, around $60,000-.
That is indeed quite a price with staff discount already. Must be at least 10
to 15% more on regular. It is a classical look device very much of English (or
rather Victorian) style. The driver of course is the famous co-axial design
much upgraded. I always believe spkrs of this design(and size) has its
strength in utilizing the harmony of the entire sound box rather than the driver
units alone. It should produce very live like concert effect and less
directional with dramatic hifi effect that many audiophiles use to measure the
quality of spkrs.
I've went to concerts these few weeks at Cultural Centre and City Hall. The
best listened was Malher's Symphony No. 2 performed by Kiev Symphony Orchestra
(forgot the exact name) and vocal by Katherine Battle. While enjoying the
performance, I also detoured in the mind state to compare the sound with that
produced by my hifi system. The most noticeable was that what I listened
(sitting in a very sweet spot from hifi point of view) was less directional,
diffused with harmonics, very rich hall effect and not dynamic (without the
subsonic bass as many have been specifically looking for). There was a common
tendency of without any trace of thickness, clear and defined with good mix of
spaciousness. That is the type of sound that I am trying to tune my system into.
I have also listened to some jazz but since their performance was usually via
amplification to those enormous JBL horns and PA spkrs stationed at both sides
of the stage, I really couldn't know what was the real sound from their
instrument. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
> > Haven't heard of a Tannoy before. Hope to listen one day.
>
> You are welcomed. But please don't expect high definition and deep sound
> stage from this speaker. What I am expecting is a pair of musical speaker
> wtih good tonal colour and tonal balance.
It would be interesting to find out how close the Canterbury 15 can reproduce
this 'musical' effect.
As you may be aware, I've recently bought a pair of Nautilus 802 and although it
is very new, I think its potential of reaching my goal is very high. The sound
stage it produces resembles very closely that of live performance. It is very
sensitive in its high and midrange that enables detailed and defined
reproduction of string and wind wood instruments due to the Nautilus drive
units. The hall effect is very much alive and present. The bass is not as
authoritative as the M801 as it has yet to be run in.
Having said that, however, the Nautilus series may not be suitable to your taste
as it is very much in the modern sound category. Even the outlook is of the
post-modernism design.
Happy listening.
TK Chan
doctorjohn
> I've went to concerts these few weeks at Cultural Centre and City Hall. The
> best listened was Malher's Symphony No. 2 performed by Kiev Symphony Orchestra
> (forgot the exact name) and vocal by Katherine Battle.
Kirov, conducted by Valery Gergiev. Was it a very Russian Mahler (I once heard
Rostropovich conduct a Mahler symphony and it sounded like Tchaikovsky!)?
> While enjoying the
> performance, I also detoured in the mind state to compare the sound with that
> produced by my hifi system....That is the type of sound that I am trying to tune
> my system into.
Important points!!! Modern hifi people are too much into "soundstage" and
"definition" etc to forget what they are listening to. Realism is difficult to
define for everyone. For me, something like the Tablette has all the "soundstage",
but it has nothing to do with realism.
> I have also listened to some jazz but since their performance was usually via
> amplification to those enormous JBL horns and PA spkrs stationed at both sides
> of the stage, I really couldn't know what was the real sound from their
> instrument. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Try the ECM CD of Keith Jarrett "Live at the Blue Note". Trio performance. Beautiful
and...@ctimail.com
>
> That is indeed quite a price with staff discount already. Must be at least 10
> to 15% more on regular. It is a classical look device very much of English (or
> rather Victorian) style. The driver of course is the famous co-axial design
> much upgraded. I always believe spkrs of this design(and size) has its
> strength in utilizing the harmony of the entire sound box rather than the driver
> units alone. It should produce very live like concert effect and less
> directional with dramatic hifi effect that many audiophiles use to measure the
> quality of spkrs.
I had audition to Tannoy dual concentric prestige series speakers on
several occasions since around 1990. Since it were designed to be placed
against the wall. The depth of the sound stage would not be as good as modern
speakers placing in a position several feet in front of the back wall. Also
if one is looking for counting heads definition and focus with small mouth
size of the singer, he may be disappointed. For dynamic range, it should be
surprisingly good.
> I've went to concerts these few weeks at Cultural Centre and City Hall. The
> best listened was Malher's Symphony No. 2 performed by Kiev Symphony Orchestra
> (forgot the exact name) and vocal by Katherine Battle. While enjoying the
> performance, I also detoured in the mind state to compare the sound with that
> produced by my hifi system. The most noticeable was that what I listened
> (sitting in a very sweet spot from hifi point of view) was less directional,
> diffused with harmonics, very rich hall effect and not dynamic (without the
> subsonic bass as many have been specifically looking for). There was a common
> tendency of without any trace of thickness, clear and defined with good mix of
> spaciousness. That is the type of sound that I am trying to tune my system into.
The sound in a concert hall is totally different from home. In my opinion,
in the concert hall the sound of an orchestra is 'melt' into one and produced
a less directional, diffused with rich harmonics sound. If you could
reproduce this kind of sound at home (in fact very difficult for many
reasons), it would be very comfortable to listen to. However, from
audiophile's point of view, the focus would not be sharp enough for counting
heads and the mouth size of the singer is not small enough. I feel the
direction on the development of high ends componens is not only aiming to
reproduce the sound of live music, and has been trying to impress by
developing a kind of sound which one could not find in live performance.
> I have also listened to some jazz but since their performance was usually via
> amplification to those enormous JBL horns and PA spkrs stationed at both sides
> of the stage, I really couldn't know what was the real sound from their
> instrument. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
In a small club or lounge, usually only the voice of the singer is via
amplificiation.
> > > Haven't heard of a Tannoy before. Hope to listen one day.
> >
After briefly burn-in, I would hold an audition party at my home. Please wait.
> It would be interesting to find out how close the Canterbury 15 can reproduce
> this 'musical' effect.
Wait and see. But please don't expect too much. Reality is mostly not as good
as expecting.
> As you may be aware, I've recently bought a pair of Nautilus 802 and although it
> is very new, I think its potential of reaching my goal is very high. The sound
> stage it produces resembles very closely that of live performance. It is very
> sensitive in its high and midrange that enables detailed and defined
> reproduction of string and wind wood instruments due to the Nautilus drive
> units. The hall effect is very much alive and present. The bass is not as
> authoritative as the M801 as it has yet to be run in.
> Having said that, however, the Nautilus series may not be suitable to your taste
> as it is very much in the modern sound category. Even the outlook is of the
> post-modernism design.
I had used 801 matrix II and 802 matrix II for short periods in around 1988.
My impression on 801 was much better than 802. I am still interested and
curious on the new Nautilus 802. Could you allow me to have an audition at
your place? If "yes' please E-mail me.
and...@ctimail.com
> > While enjoying the
> > performance, I also detoured in the mind state to compare the sound with that
> > produced by my hifi system....That is the type of sound that I am trying to tune
> > my system into.
>
> Important points!!! Modern hifi people are too much into "soundstage" and
> "definition" etc to forget what they are listening to. Realism is difficult to
> define for everyone. For me, something like the Tablette has all the "soundstage",
> but it has nothing to do with realism.
Fully agreed.
Lee HC
and...@ctimail.com wrote in article <79oh7p$ctc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> The sound in a concert hall is totally different from home. In my opinion,
> in the concert hall the sound of an orchestra is 'melt' into one and produced
> a less directional, diffused with rich harmonics sound. If you could
> reproduce this kind of sound at home (in fact very difficult for many
> reasons), it would be very comfortable to listen to. However, from
> audiophile's point of view, the focus would not be sharp enough for counting
> heads and the mouth size of the singer is not small enough. I feel the
> direction on the development of high ends componens is not only aiming to
> reproduce the sound of live music, and has been trying to impress by
> developing a kind of sound which one could not find in live performance.
No offense.
Just something illogical in your statement.
How can a domestic HiFi system reproduce soundstage, ambiance & focus if they are not present in the software?
I think they are there in the software.
My understanding is that hearing recording of musical software can be very different from sitting in a live performance.
Audiophile analog recordings of the golden age, with tube gears for recording, are excellent in performance, harmonic (maybe add-on
by the tube gears, i.e. distortion), AND also soundstage, ambiance & focus.
Life may be easier for a HiFi fans to forget about the soundstage, ambiance & focus for domestic HiFi system.
I myself won't take this as the norm.
Lee HC
and...@ctimail.com
> No offense.
> Just something illogical in your statement.
> How can a domestic HiFi system reproduce soundstage, ambiance & focus if they are not present in the software?
> I think they are there in the software.
No offense at all. We are just exchanging views. My reply to your question is
simply "I don't know". But as we know different recording method would
resulting in different sound. The most simply way of a stereo recording is
using two mic. But in fact many recording engineers using more than two mic.
After recording, the mixing process is also vital to the final sonic effect.
> My understanding is that hearing recording of musical software can be very different from sitting in a live performance.
Exactly. That is the point I wish to bring out and you got it.
> Audiophile analog recordings of the golden age, with tube gears for recording, are excellent in performance, harmonic (maybe add-on
> by the tube gears, i.e. distortion), AND also soundstage, ambiance & focus.
Yes. It makes some morden recordings shameful.
> Life may be easier for a HiFi fans to forget about the soundstage, ambiance & focus for domestic HiFi system.
Yes. But for audiophile, how can they do that?
> I myself won't take this as the norm.
Noted.
Lee HC
and...@ctimail.com wrote in article <7aekoj$1up$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> Lee HC,
>
> > No offense.
> > Just something illogical in your statement.
> > How can a domestic HiFi system reproduce soundstage, ambiance & focus if they are not present in the software?
> > I think they are there in the software.
>
> No offense at all. We are just exchanging views. My reply to your question is
> simply "I don't know". But as we know different recording method would
> resulting in different sound. The most simply way of a stereo recording is
> using two mic. But in fact many recording engineers using more than two mic.
> After recording, the mixing process is also vital to the final sonic effect.
We are talking about the difference of soundstage, ambiance & focus of same software in two different HiFi system.
Some people can't reproduce with their HiFi system may say "never mind".
Other may try to make it.
The one who say "never mind" may comment other who can make it as losing "musical presence" although every piece of instrument,
performer, the layout of stage.... are clearly "visible". I regard this as "Ah Q's spirit".
To me "musical presence" mean something more than sound come out just in mid point of two speakers. Audio Space Showroom in Ap Liu
Street with Klipschorn demonstrated that best.
For "musical presence" the most important element is the personal preference of music.
I won't be present for no matter how good a recording of "Heavy Metal".
I'm sure Nic won't be present for Naum's CD.
The HiFi system play a less important role compare with personal taste.
Listening favourite music from a Car HiFi (better call LoFi) inside car is also excellent "presence" of music.
We are more eager to sing along with the favourite music & song inside car than that of domestic HiFi, isn't it?
> > My understanding is that hearing recording of musical software can be very different from sitting in a live performance.
>
> Exactly. That is the point I wish to bring out and you got it.
Then, why use like music as reference?
> > Audiophile analog recordings of the golden age, with tube gears for recording, are excellent in performance, harmonic (maybe
add-on
> > by the tube gears, i.e. distortion), AND also soundstage, ambiance & focus.
>
> Yes. It makes some morden recordings shameful.
>
> > Life may be easier for a HiFi fans to forget about the soundstage, ambiance & focus for domestic HiFi system.
>
> Yes. But for audiophile, how can they do that?
That should be the best starting point of discussion & that is one the main reason why we are here.
The point is why people keep on collecting, or changing gears?
1. Simply can't get what one want from what one's purchase?
Is that as easy as putting the HiFi gears there & they will give you what you want?
What is the point room acoustic treatment, e.g. putting some wood cabinet behind the speaker?
What is the point of dedicated HiFi room?
2. Always want a domestic HiFi system give you music as real life?
Not for me until I have a really huge dedicated HiFi room?
But, I respect & admire others who are aiming at this.
3. Hear something different from other's HiFi system & want to make that?
Why are the identical gears not sound the same?
Why are identical tubes sound different?
4. Compulsive behaviour?
I have this behaviour for software. :-(
5. & more.......
Back to your question, "how can they do that?"
We, like Andy, Tim, POSA.....etc, had once been very actively post our experience here.
You should remember the Ah Q's sarcastic respond to the posting of HiFi rack, AC supply upgrade, counterpost on every China tube
Amp & NOS tubes post, counterpost even on raising a thread for personal preference CDs....... & all these are what Ah Q's "Freedom
of Speech".
HiFi & AV gathering is going on privately.
Personal experience of ex-active HKRAV posters is growing.
But, all posters will try to filter out what will be "stepped" by the Ah Q.
End result is saver not to post.
They become ROM now.
Anyhow, ex-active HKRAVers have no loss of not posting anything in HKRAV.
Let Ah Q's spirit dominate.
May be I've taken Ah Q's sarcastic role too. :-)
Lee HC
N C Ong
>
> For "musical presence" the most important element is the personal preference of music.
> I won't be present for no matter how good a recording of "Heavy Metal".
> I'm sure Nic won't be present for Naum's CD.
There is someone much worse than Naum and it is Patricia Barber. Oh Boy,
she is a real kill joy! I was more than glad to get rid of her.
nic
Lee HC
A good example of how important personal taste & performance contribute to musical "presence".
Lee HC
N C Ong <nico...@netvigator.com> wrote in article <36CC25...@netvigator.com>...
Tim
>Back to your question, "how can they do that?"
>We, like Andy, Tim, POSA.....etc, had once been very actively post our
experience here.
>You should remember the Ah Q's sarcastic respond to the posting of HiFi
rack, AC supply upgrade, counterpost on every China tube
>Amp & NOS tubes post, counterpost even on raising a thread for personal
preference CDs....... & all these are what Ah Q's "Freedom
>of Speech".
>
>HiFi & AV gathering is going on privately.
>Personal experience of ex-active HKRAV posters is growing.
>But, all posters will try to filter out what will be "stepped" by the Ah Q.
>End result is saver not to post.
>They become ROM now.
>Anyhow, ex-active HKRAVers have no loss of not posting anything in HKRAV.
>Let Ah Q's spirit dominate.
>May be I've taken Ah Q's sarcastic role too. :-)
>
>
>Lee HC
I don't know about the others but I surely have not practised any
"self-censorship" simply because I worry about being step on. Quite the
contrary, I post much fewer than I used to be because :
1. After the sign-off by Andy, there is no one to argue with me on tube vs.
SS
2. I cannot read posting by Lee HC, Capt Lo and a few new guys with the
stupid newserver by hkstar
3. But the most most important thing is that there is too LITTLE participant
here. I said this many many times. People just would not use Usenet no
matter how hard you try to convince them.
Sarcasm is a reflection of character and is only a line's difference from
humour. Let the people judge by themselve.
Counter-post is not a problem. The real problem is that there is no one
there to post anything interesting because they cannot get on this forum.
Tim
Lee HC
Tim <tyy...@hkstar.com> wrote in article <7ahg5j$ks...@pegasus.hkstar.com>...
> Lee HC wrote in message <01be5b32$6a9cb5a0$LocalHost@default>...
> >Back to your question, "how can they do that?"
> >We, like Andy, Tim, POSA.....etc, had once been very actively post our
> experience here.
> >You should remember the Ah Q's sarcastic respond to the posting of HiFi
> rack, AC supply upgrade, counterpost on every China tube
> >Amp & NOS tubes post, counterpost even on raising a thread for personal
> preference CDs....... & all these are what Ah Q's "Freedom
> >of Speech".
> >
> >HiFi & AV gathering is going on privately.
> >Personal experience of ex-active HKRAV posters is growing.
> >But, all posters will try to filter out what will be "stepped" by the Ah Q.
> >End result is saver not to post.
> >They become ROM now.
> >Anyhow, ex-active HKRAVers have no loss of not posting anything in HKRAV.
> >Let Ah Q's spirit dominate.
> >May be I've taken Ah Q's sarcastic role too. :-)
> >
> >
> >Lee HC
>
> I don't know about the others but I surely have not practised any
> "self-censorship" simply because I worry about being step on. Quite the
> contrary, I post much fewer than I used to be because :
Just wonder why no post concerning recent Sterling, GEC KT88, DIY EL34 Parallel gathering.
> 1. After the sign-off by Andy, there is no one to argue with me on tube vs.
> SS.
I agree that's one of the major activity in HKRAV. :-)
How about the other major activities previously : tubes match, HKRAVers home gathering, metal match....
Now who have stop talking about RR grade NOS.
I definitely try not to mention China tube amp for months.
I have nearly got no interest to post software.
Besides, tube guys like you & me do have a lot disagreement, e.g. this thread.
> 2. I cannot read posting by Lee HC, Capt Lo and a few new guys with the
> stupid newserver by hkstar
> 3. But the most most important thing is that there is too LITTLE participant
> here. I said this many many times. People just would not use Usenet no
> matter how hard you try to convince them.
You can see how badly is the other audio forum managed & how short lifespan is the DIY homepage.
The most most important thing is the ex-active members quit or loss interest to post.
We see there are newcomer.
There are new interesting subjects / thread raised but not much follower or counterpost appear before constructive post.
> Sarcasm is a reflection of character and is only a line's difference from
> humour. Let the people judge by themselve.
>
> Counter-post is not a problem. The real problem is that there is no one
> there to post anything interesting because they cannot get on this forum.
CONSTANTLY counter-post is a problem.
That prevent further posting of NOS, tweaking of system, audiophile recording, expensive accessories, speaker placement, room
acoustics............,
What subject is save from counter-post, Tim?
> Tim
That is the major reason of quitting of ex-active HKRAVers:
I or some of us have nothing to loss by not posting anything here. Indeed there is an advantage of having more time for family &
personal hobby instead of arguing here.
Nothing interesting? Many go through private E-mail.
You have collected a number of metal recently, nothing interesting to post?
My growing software collection, playing around NAD533, RPG profoam...
Just feel safer to post video only.
No more open invitation of gathering. This is the reason of growing of core members of HKRAVers previously.
Lee HC
Nicholas Yek
Lee HC <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote in message
news:01be5bb6$58445000$LocalHost@default...
Lee HC
So, why HiFi gear for me.
A lot of my favourite music are recorded by Cassette tape recording of FM broadcast since my school days when I was still a member
of an amateur Chinese Orchestra. So, I know, enjoy music don't need Hi end system.
My HiFi experience first start with my elder brother's tube amp from Ap Liu Street. But, my childhood's memory of Ap Liu Street is
the metallic robot, noise gun that I was most fond of. Yes, I lived in Shek Kip Mei & study in Shum Shui Po in my childhood. I
don't have my gears until my F.6 . My first & shortest lasting audio gear, when I was F.1 student, was a Ap Liu Street's used
all-in-one-box LP player which burnt all the money I earn during summer holiday. Unfortunately, AC leak happened just a few days
after use & I dispose it for $10!. I only started again with a Sanyo all-in-one casette recorder in higher school, then enter
university with a AWIA mini combo using part of my grant (turner, casette, recorder in 3 pieces), then add a better Hitachi
cassette deck, then, when graduated, Onkyo integrated amp & B&W DM17 & Kenwood KT1100SD turner (still serving) & Luxman K03 (a deck
that is mentioned in the 2nd or 3rd issue of Audiophile by Editor Chan & it is still serving me in Sleeping room!). K03 is recently
replaced by Kenwood DM7090 MD deck. The rest from B&W DM17 onward have been mentioned before.
Now Hi Fi for me, same as home theater, is for entertainment on the top of music enjoyment.
I will not make a fullstop on audio entertainment by the term "musical presence" which should better be achieved by REAL music.
Everybody has their own story.
Maybe you have your own story to tell.
Lee HC