Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Democratic politics: From freedom to empire (民主如賊)

1 view
Skip to first unread message

ltlee1

unread,
Dec 17, 2009, 2:43:01 PM12/17/09
to
Americans worship freedom. They are also the victims of freedom.

From THE LIMITS OF POWER by Andrew J. Bacevich:

"In our pursuit fo freedom, we have accrued obligations and piled up
debts that we are increasingly hard-pressed to meet. Especially since
the 1960s, freedom itself has undercut the nation's ability to fulfill
its commitments. We teeter on the edge of insolvency, desperately
trying to balance accounts by relying on our presumably invincible
armed forces. Yet there, too, having exaggerated our military might,
we court bankrupts."

"... Simply put, as the American appetite for freedom has grwon, so
too has our penchant for empire. The connection between these two
tendencies is a causal one. In an earlier age, American saw empire as
the anti-thesis of freedom. Today, as illustrated above all by the
Bush adminstration's effort to dominate enery-rich Persian Gulf,
empire has seemingly become a prerequisite of freedom."

Empire means asserting control over other countries for its own
benefits. How does freedom leads to the necessity of empire?
Democratic politics.

skygod

unread,
Dec 19, 2009, 8:07:16 PM12/19/09
to
that is communists' dog's concept : kneeling to enemy but oppressing
upon citizens.
democratic politics, as a company, is loyal to their citizens
(shareholder), not to non-voters (competitor-company).
ltlee1 is a communists' dog (absolutely betrayer to be a USA citizen, if
it got USA nationality).
that is why deporting such communists' dog off USA is vitally necessary !!
then ltlee1, after being deported to Chinkland, will be very loyal to
USA, and kneel very humilitarily to USA democracy !!


ltlee1 提到:

Wakalukong

unread,
Dec 19, 2009, 8:42:29 PM12/19/09
to
-------

Bacevich and you can't argue by playing with words. America is
bleeding itself in pursuit of empire, not freedom. Freedom is used as
a cover in the pursuit of empire. Remember the codename for the
invasion of Iraq? It was called operation "Iraqi Freedom".

Wakalukong

ltlee1

unread,
Dec 19, 2009, 11:10:48 PM12/19/09
to

According to Bacevich, the meaning of "freedom" had been changed
with time. However, what constitute as the enemy of "freedom" had
also been changeded. At 1776, the enemy of freedom was Britain.
At present, American liberals consider anything other than a democrat
controlled U.S. government could be the enemy of freedom.American
conservatives consider anything other than conservative controlled
U.S.
government could be the enemy of freedom.


>
> Wakalukong- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wakalukong

unread,
Dec 20, 2009, 7:23:44 AM12/20/09
to
(snip)
-----------

The meaning of freedom has not changed; most certainly, it has not
changed to mean empire building.

Wakalukong

ltlee1

unread,
Dec 20, 2009, 8:46:24 AM12/20/09
to

Yes and no. The current meaning of freedom is not what America's
founding father had on their minds. Richard Hofstadter had pointed
out the obvious in his book, THE AMERICAN POLITICAL TRADITION,

"It is ironical that the Constitution, which Americans venerate so
deeply, is based upon a political theory that at one crucial point
stands in direct antithesis to the mainstream of American democratic
faith. Modern American folklore assumes that democracy and liberty
are
all but identical, and when demorcratic writers take the trouble to
make the distinction, they usually assume that democracy is necessary
to liberty. But the Founding Fathers thought that the liberty with
which they were most concerned was menaced by democracy. In their
minds liberty was linked not to democracy but to property."

Life then was not the basis of freedom. Property was. Freedom was not
any kind of God given rights if one did not own property. Rather,
freedom
was provided by property, including one's whole body. Hence, owining
more property means more freedom. In this sense, an empire maximizing
overall property through military control is also maximizing freedom.
Conclusion: Freedom leads to empire is as inevitable as night
following day.

People sees freedom differently. But the political system does not.

Wakalukong

unread,
Dec 21, 2009, 4:56:40 AM12/21/09
to
(snip)
--------

The point is still "freedom" does not mean "empire" or "empire-
building".

Wakalukong

ltlee1

unread,
Dec 22, 2009, 10:15:18 PM12/22/09
to

Don't know your point.
People say "night is following day." Of course, they are not saying
"day" means "night."

0 new messages