How to write Ryusei
Raman
if you took the आ out from आर्यपुत्र.
If there were such a word, or you wanted to spell such a word from
another language, what would be the better way of spelling it?
र्यपुत्र or र्यपुत्र
One of my Japanese colleague's name is Ryusei (र्युसेइ or र्युसेइ?).
There are many words in Kashmiri language that start like that.
Thanks for your help.
Kishore Kumar Pahuja
I would suggest र्युसेइ
Kishore Kumar Pahuja
www.kkpahuja.com
Please visit my blog
http://hindipadya.blogspot.com/
http://protonthoughts.blogspot.com/
--- On Sat, 8/8/09, Raman <raman...@gmail.com> wrote:
narayan prasad
UVR
halant-र: र्-यू-से. The "sei" as far as I know, is pronounced similar
to the English "say", without any palpable "i" sound at the end -- in
fact, with a short "e" like, for example, in मेहनत.
However, I would also say that in matters of transcribing foreign-
origin words, it is preferable to attempt to transcribe (spell) the
way the word is *pronounced* in the parent language, rather than how
it is spelt. For example, if your friend says his name as "रि-यू-से",
then that's how it must be spelt in देवनागरी.
-UVR.
Kaul
example. My basic question was how you would write a word starting
with र्+य, if such a word existed.
I was with this person briefly on a trip to Japan, and I heard
everyone calling him र्युसेइ-san. Yes, र्युसे may be more accurate,
but definitely not रि-यू-से. It was spoken with a terse उ sound after
र् +य. I do not have access to his name in Japanese at this time, but
I will get it.
But this person's name is beside the point. My question is how to
transcribe this sound in Devanagari, and I wonder why there is no word
with such a beginning in Hindi or other Sanskritic languages. I do
have many words from Kashmiri that have this beginning -- र्यथ
(month), र्यवायथ (tradition), र्यख (bird beet), and so on.
I guess the best answer I have so far is UVR's "personal preference".
My problem with र्य is that it looks odd, and the problem with र्य
that is is hard to type it in Unicode -- you need a ZWNJ character
after र्. I was wondering if a "technically correct" answer exists
here. I would have the same issue with the other "vowel" र्व, and I
have many words for that too. For example, the Kashmiri word for रुपया
is र्वपय. I like the visible halanta way of writing it, but then I
have to use the ZWNJ (zero width non-joiner).
Kaul
On 8 अग, 06:55, narayan prasad <hin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Raman ji,
> Could you provide me his name in Japanese itself ?
> His name written in Roman is not reliable, because Japanese cannot have such
> a complicated name.
Narayan ji, why do you think this name is complicated? It seems to me
a simple, short name. Please see the following Wikipedia page. It
appears the word is written in Japanese there:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Ryusei_no_Kizuna
>
> Tokyo is not to be pronounced टोक्यो, but तोक्यो and better still as
> तोकियो, where the ikAr is very very short.
>
> ---Narayan Prasad
> ८ अगस्त २००९ ४:०१ PM को, Raman <raman.k...@gmail.com> ने लिखा:
Kaul
which have been made by modifying original Persian vowels. You can see
the "waw with a rounded tail" on any Rupee note, where the word Rupee
is spelt in Kashmiri. In devanagari-Kashmiri, the the halanta-y and
halanta-w are used, but the problem is only when these are preceded by
r. Sorry if this is out of the range of discussion of this group. I
thought it is relevant because it is a devanagari question.
mjha...@umassd.edu
Ryouichi BARAHA Font is used below.
मित्रों-
शायद, जिस जपानी नामकी चर्चा
हो रही हैं, वोह अंग्रेजीमे
उपर लिखित रीतिसे लिखा जाता
है।
यह नाम आप किसी जपानी
व्यक्तिसे पूछकरहि
सुनिश्चित कर सकते हैं। शायद
इसे अलग रीतिसे भी लिखा जाता
होगा।इसका ठीक उच्चारण, भी
कुछ कठिन हो सकता है।
धन्यवाद।
मधु झवेरी
narayan prasad
Raman ji,
I do not just think, but I do say confidently on the basis of the nature of the Japanese language that does not allow consonant clusters anywhere (except n, r, etc at the end of a syllable). Please think about names like "to-ki-yo", "ya-ko-ha-ma" etc. In Roman you do write the famous Buddhist mantra as "na-mu myo ho ren ge kyo". Actually myo is sth like "mi-yo", kyo is like "ki-yo", but the i sound being shorter compared to devanagari. You should verify in the original rather than see them in Roman.
The name Ryu-sei in Japanese is written in Kanji as 流星 and these Chinese characters are Romanized as liú-xīng (meaning "meteor"). Since Japanese does not have the "ल" sound it is replaced with "र". I suspect that in Japanese also, it might be "Riu" instead of "Ryu". I think it is best to hear this word pronounced by a Japanese only.
|
|
narayan prasad
I searched the pronunciation of 流星 in Japanese dictionary online at:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.htm
and found: 流星 【りゅうせい】
The breakup is as follows:
り= ri
ゅ= yu
せ = se
い = i
For Basic Hiragana chart please click:
http://www.joyo96.org/GIFS/BasicKanaChart.GIF
---Narayan Prasad
narayan prasad
The correct link is:
|
Kaul
Thanks a lot. I am amazed at your knowledge of so many different
languages and their structure.
Although my question about the Japanese name has been answered, my
basic question remains without a satisfactory answer. Turns out I used
a wrong example of a Japanese name (which I was apparently mis-
pronouncing) and turned the whole discussion into a wrong direction.
My basic question was
"how would one write a word starting with र्+य -- with a half र on top
य, or with a visible halanta? Same for र्+व."
The option with the visible halanta is less confusing and is
apparently used by Kashmiris but it is not the natural Devanagari way
(IMHO), and needs a special zwnj, which is not found in most
keyboards.
Are there any Devanagari rules about this, or would you say it is
personal preference? Or, would you say such words do not exist in any
language that uses Devanagari script? I know the exception to be
Kashmiri. And on Kashmiri words, I am 100% sure about the
pronunciation.
Thanks a lot for any pointers anyone can give. Please address my basic
question only. No discussion about the Japanese word this time. ;-)
- Raman Kaul
On 9 अग, 01:50, narayan prasad <prasad_cw...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> The correct link is:http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.html
>
> --- On Sun, 9/8/09, narayan prasad <hin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: narayan prasad <hin...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Hindi] Re: How to write Ryusei
> To: hi...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 9 August, 2009, 11:12 AM
>
> I searched the pronunciation of 流星 in Japanese dictionary online at:http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.htm
> and found: 流星 【りゅうせい】
> The breakup is as follows:
> り= ri
> ゅ= yu
> せ = se
> い = i
> For Basic Hiragana chart please click:http://www.joyo96.org/GIFS/BasicKanaChart.GIF
> ---Narayan Prasad
> Raman ji,
> I do not just think, but I do say confidently on the basis of the nature of the Japanese language that does not allow consonant clusters anywhere (except n, r, etc at the end of a syllable). Please think about names like "to-ki-yo", "ya-ko-ha-ma" etc. In Roman you do write the famous Buddhist mantra as "na-mu myo ho ren ge kyo". Actually myo is sth like "mi-yo", kyo is like "ki-yo", but the i sound being shorter compared to devanagari. You should verify in the original rather than see them in Roman.
>
> The name Ryu-sei in Japanese is written in Kanji as 流星 and these Chinese characters are Romanized as liú-xīng (meaning "meteor"). Since Japanese does not have the "ल" sound it is replaced with "र". I suspect that in Japanese also, it might be "Riu" instead of "Ryu". I think it is best to hear this word pronounced by a Japanese only.
>
> ---Narayan Prasad
>
Shailesh Bharatwasi
Vinay
I think the solutions lies in thinking of Devanagari as a set of mere
symbols and leave out the prejudices of familiarity. The problem that
you have with र्य is may be due to the fact that you haven't seen it
used before in Hindi or Sanskrit. But the thing is that you are not
talking about Hindi or Sanskrit. You are talking about a very
different language with its own different phonetics.
I will give you an example from Hindi and Sanskrit. When I an reading
a Hindi text and I see राम, I pronounce it 'raam' but in a Sanskrit
text, I would pronounce the same symbols as "raama". Similarly when
using Devanagari for Rajasthani, the convention changes some of the
sounds of Devanagari symbols (as we know they sound in Hindi) based on
Rajasthani's own phonetics. Conversely, some letter combinations that
would look odd in Hindi are used frequently in Rajasthani (or for that
matter other languages using Devangari).
Kashmiri can use the symbols in ways that makes sense for it. र्य may
be absent in Hindi as a word initial cluster, but as you said,
Kashmiri has plenty of words like that. So why not use it? What's
wrong with it? It is as good as र्य. BTW, what is the existing
convention in Kashmiri (when it is written in Devanagari)? I think
that's what matters. If it is to write it as र्य then when Unicode
implementations are done for Kashmiri, the rendering engine should
make sure that र्य is not changed into र्य. I think it can be
managed at the rendering level (a job of script processors like
Uniscribe for Windows systems), which is usually different for each
language even if they are using same Unicode symbols.
Vinay
Kaul
"personal preference", and that "there is no rule being broken either
way". I can live with that and consider this topic closed, unless
someone differs.
To bring more perspective to the issue, think of the English word
"bed". In Hindi it is transcribed as बेड, which is closer to "bade" (I
bade him a farewell). बैड would be 'bad". A better transcription for
"bed" would be ब्यड (Marathi uses such transcriptions). This is the
exact vowel I am talking about here. Now, what if the word were "red"
instead of "bed", then it would be र्यड, and would present the same
issue.
I have seen Kashmiris using the visible Halanta, but then its limited
user base is not concerned or aware about Unicode or its limitations.
Most don't use computers, and a few who do use non-Unicode fonts. See
page 5 on this document http://mkraina.com/doc/15.pdf, where rwa is
used.
narayan prasad
red ---> रॆड
UVR
wrote:
> रमन जी,
>
> मैंने तो इस ओर कभी ग़ौर ही नहीं किया था। आश्चर्यजनक बात है। मैंने 'र्य' को
> zero width joiner लगाकर लिखा तो 'र्य' बन रहा है, इस तरह का प्रतीक तो मैंने
> आज तक नहीं देखा। हाँ, zero width non joiner से कम से कम देखे हुए प्रतीक निकल
> कर आ रहे हैं। (र्य)।
>
> नारायण जी, अब आप जवाब देना बहुत ज़रूरी हो गया है।
>
हो सकता है मैं ग़लत हूँ, लेकिन यह जो "र्य" है, यह "र्य" ही का मराठी
में प्रचलित रूप है।
UVR
>
> Kashmiri can use the symbols in ways that makes sense for it. र्य may
> be absent in Hindi as a word initial cluster, but as you said,
> Kashmiri has plenty of words like that. So why not use it? What's
> wrong with it? It is as good as र्य. BTW, what is the existing
> convention in Kashmiri (when it is written in Devanagari)? I think
> that's what matters. If it is to write it as र्य then when Unicode
> implementations are done for Kashmiri, the rendering engine should
I agree with the above in general and also in particular with the
suggestion that "whatever is the current Kashmiri-Devanagari
convention is what matters." परन्तु फिर भी " र्य" (र्य नहीं) से मुझे
थोड़ी परेशानी होगी। कारण आगे है।
" र्य" के बारे में मेरा यह विचार है कि इसे personal preference पर
नहीं छोड़ा जा सकता। देवनागरी के नियमों के अनुसार "र + ZWNJ" = र् होना
चाहिए, " र्" नहीं -- अर्थात, unless there is a consonant+consonant
ligature with 'r', it should be written as a halant r. अगर देवनागरी-
कश्मीरी-वाले नए नियम बनाना चाहते हों तो अलग बात है, लेकिन उस हाल में
भी मेरा सवाल यही होगा कि "र्-य" और "र्-व" में क्या बुराई है कि नए नियम
पैदा करने कि ज़रुरत आन पड़ी है?
एक बात और काबिल-ए-ग़ौर है -- लिपि एक "medium of inscription" कम, एक
"medium of communication" ज़्यादा है। कहने का तात्पर्य यह है कि किसी
भाषा को किसी भी लिपि में लिखते समय यह ध्यान रखना आवश्यक है कि लिपि
केवल लिखनेवाले कि लिख देने भर के लिए नहीं है, पढ़नेवाले को भी उतना ही
ज़रूरी है कि वह लिखी हुई चीज़ बिना किसी अनावश्यक कठिनाई के, और आसानी
से, पढ़ सके। आप शौक़ से "र्वुप्या" (rvupya) लिख लें या "र्युसे" (ryuse)
लिख लें लेकिन अगर सामनेवाला आपकी यह लेखनी पढ़ने में इसलिए असमर्थ रहे
कि उसने इस प्रकार लिखे हुए शब्द पहले नहीं देखे हैं, तो आपकी भलाई इसी
में है कि आप "more familiar writing style" का प्रयोग करें। किसी भी
शब्द को जान-बूझकर क्लिष्ट बनाने से फ़ायदा?
-UVR.
A J
narayan prasad
में प्रचलित रूप है।>>
---नारायण प्रसाद
Vinay
On Aug 9, 11:42 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 9, 7:12 am, Vinay <vinaypj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Kashmiri can use the symbols in ways that makes sense for it. र्य may
> > be absent in Hindi as a word initial cluster, but as you said,
> > Kashmiri has plenty of words like that. So why not use it? What's
> > wrong with it? It is as good as र्य. BTW, what is the existing
> > convention in Kashmiri (when it is written in Devanagari)? I think
> > that's what matters. If it is to write it as र्य then when Unicode
> > implementations are done for Kashmiri, the rendering engine should
>
> I agree with the above in general and also in particular with the
> suggestion that "whatever is the current Kashmiri-Devanagari
> convention is what matters." परन्तु फिर भी " र्य" (र्य नहीं) से मुझे
> थोड़ी परेशानी होगी। कारण आगे है।
>
> " र्य" के बारे में मेरा यह विचार है कि इसे personal preference पर
> नहीं छोड़ा जा सकता। देवनागरी के नियमों के अनुसार "र + ZWNJ" = र् होना
> चाहिए, " र्" नहीं -- अर्थात, unless there is a consonant+consonant
> ligature with 'r', it should be written as a halant r. अगर देवनागरी-
> कश्मीरी-वाले नए नियम बनाना चाहते हों तो अलग बात है, लेकिन उस हाल में
> भी मेरा सवाल यही होगा कि "र्-य" और "र्-व" में क्या बुराई है कि नए नियम
> पैदा करने कि ज़रुरत आन पड़ी है?
>
> एक बात और काबिल-ए-ग़ौर है -- लिपि एक "medium of inscription" कम, एक
> "medium of communication" ज़्यादा है। कहने का तात्पर्य यह है कि किसी
> भाषा को किसी भी लिपि में लिखते समय यह ध्यान रखना आवश्यक है कि लिपि
> केवल लिखनेवाले कि लिख देने भर के लिए नहीं है, पढ़नेवाले को भी उतना ही
> ज़रूरी है कि वह लिखी हुई चीज़ बिना किसी अनावश्यक कठिनाई के, और आसानी
> से, पढ़ सके। आप शौक़ से "र्वुप्या" (rvupya) लिख लें या "र्युसे" (ryuse)
> लिख लें लेकिन अगर सामनेवाला आपकी यह लेखनी पढ़ने में इसलिए असमर्थ रहे
> कि उसने इस प्रकार लिखे हुए शब्द पहले नहीं देखे हैं, तो आपकी भलाई इसी
> में है कि आप "more familiar writing style" का प्रयोग करें। किसी भी
> शब्द को जान-बूझकर क्लिष्ट बनाने से फ़ायदा?
>
बिल्कुल. इसीलिए मैंने 'convention' का ज़िक्र किया. मेरे विचार में भाषा
के मामले में सही-ग़लत की सबसे बड़ी निर्भरता usage और convention होना
चाहिए. पर अगर कश्मीरी को देवनागरी में लिखना अपेक्षाकृत नया है या फिर
दोनों तरह के रूप चलते हैं और लोगों को समझ में आते हैं तो दोनों ही सही
हैं. कुल मिलाकर बात यह कि यह फ़ैसला कश्मीरी पढ़ने-लिखने वाले ही बेहतर
कर सकते हैं.
विनय
> -UVR.
narayan prasad
<< I have also been trying to find Zalman Dimshit's Hindi grammar book which was translated in Hindi without any luck. Any information on the publisher or an ISBN number will be immensely helpful. >>
अनुवादक - योगेन्द्र नागपाल
narayan prasad
र्कव भूसंगानयने भूसंगानयन में
र्ड रूढीभवने रूढि होने में
र्त साध्वीभवने साधु होने में
र्ण जीर्णीभवने जीर्ण होने में
र्स गमने जाने में
Kaul
At the risk of unnecessarily prolonging this thread, I will briefly
say this:
The vowel I am talking about is NOT a short form of ए. We have another
vowel that is a short form of ए, which uses the matra you used in बेड.
Similarly, we have two different vowels corresponding to ओ, e.g.,
र्वफ means silver, and रॊफ means darning (रफू). See the following
last two itms on the list given on following pdf:
http://www.koausa.org/publications/Key%20to%20Devanagari-Kashmiri.pdf
The excerpt from कश्मीरशब्दामृतम् did not throw much light on the
vowels I was looking for, but shows the words starting with a र्
rather than a "reph". Can I assume you prefer that usage too?
Best regards,
Raman
On 9 अग, 11:21, narayan prasad <hin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> bed --->बॆड ; bade - बेड
> red ---> रॆड
>
> Transcribing bed as ब्यड (byaD) would be even worse. In extended devanagari
> we do have short form of ए written as ऎ and short form of ओ written as ऒ.
> The corresponding mAtrAs are - ॆ and ॊ. Then what is the problem ?
> So far as transcription of Kashmiri rya in devanagari is concerned, please
> refer to कश्मीरशब्दामृतम् of पं॰ ईश्वर कौल. It is a Kashmiri grammar written
> in Sanskrit sUtra form and the commentary also in Sanskrit. It has been
> published in devanagari. If you do not have access to it, I can give you the
> information by tomorrow evening.
>
> ---Narayan Prasad
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks Vinay. You have answered my question to the extent that it is
> > "personal preference", and that "there is no rule being broken either
> > way". I can live with that and consider this topic closed, unless
> > someone differs.
>
> > To bring more perspective to the issue, think of the English word
> > "bed". In Hindi it is transcribed as बेड, which is closer to "bade" (I
> > bade him a farewell). बैड would be 'bad". A better transcription for
> > "bed" would be ब्यड (Marathi uses such transcriptions). This is the
> > exact vowel I am talking about here. Now, what if the word were "red"
> > instead of "bed", then it would be र्यड, and would present the same
> > issue.
>
> > I have seen Kashmiris using the visible Halanta, but then its limited
> > user base is not concerned or aware about Unicode or its limitations.
> > Most don't use computers, and a few who do use non-Unicode fonts. See