Canada lost five citizens - no one else cares
Ice Age
Canadian reporter to die in Afghanistan when she was killed Wednesday
along with four Canadian soldiers by an improvised explosive device.
The five deaths in a relatively safe part of Kandahar city represented
the worst loss of life for the Canadian mission in Afghanistan in
two-and-a-half-years.
>snip<
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9014647.html
>snip<
Darn shame. Why are we there? Debated to death, so I guess these
five, sadly, don't matter to most Canadians. Sigh...
What a sick society of sheep we live in... tonight I'll mourn these
additional 5 who were sent in harm's way by our government for no good
reason. Please bring the rest home alive, Stephen Harper. Oh sorry,
forgot, you prorogued parliament until March so you could to go to the
Olympics.
Ice!
Jack
No PM Harper, please stay until the job is done...the fallen soldiers
deserve no less..
Jack
Stop whining...
JD
"Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0184ad6c$0$14949$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Sure people care. And all good reasons have a high cost. This is no
different.
JD
"Jack" <bigc...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:4b3c45eb$0$5349$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
I agree.
Halifax_Hooligan
> KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — A Calgary-based journalist became the first
I wouldn't say no one cares, but these loses have become routine now,
so there is less shock now when they occur.
As far as staying or leaving, meh. The outcome will be the same
regardless. Foreigners can't change Afghanistan, they have to change
themselves.
kozmo
>
> - Show quoted text -
the job will never be "done"
Hawk
themselves.
Truer words were never spoken.
kozmo
change to what?
JD
<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:sbbpj59c7k4saiemt...@4ax.com...
That's the general idea; they need to change their own country, but they
also need the safety and security to allow them to do it.
kozmo
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:05:47 -0800 (PST), kozmo
> person newly returned from Afghanistan) that it is not necessarily the
> way we see it reported (oh the surprise!) that much is being done to
> help and that at a certain point the NGOs can be more involved and
> help with the day to day living. Currently Afghanis live in fear of
> Taliban.
>
> Although I hate war I could be in favour of really bombing the Taliban
> nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
> government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
> wealth.
the majority of the Chinese people live in fear of their government as
well.
J Smith
day....
"Patton" <brazils...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:74f06b03-c1dd-4bf6...@21g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
>> well.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> And we support this form of government by buying their crap and
> selling them our goods as well. If all Canadians watched the TV
> documentary "Ferenheit 911" by Michael Moore and went on You Tube and
> searched for videos using the words "Loose Change" then maybe we would
> have second thoughts about being in Afghanistan.
> If the US presidents believe in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars so much
> why doesn't Bush, Clinton and later on Obama send all their daughters
> to fight over there?.
kozmo
> mikey moore is your source of 'facts'....lol....there is one born every
> day....
>
government with their "facts"
J Smith
agenda today and knows how to push it.
"kozmo" <novasc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1fb1836e-34c4-482d...@21g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
kozmo
> you are right. There is also the media and their 'facts'. Everyone as an
> agenda today and knows how to push it.
>
exactly, the truth lies somewhere between all the "facts"
Jack
What the hell do you think we are doing there ?? We are trying to bring
the majority up in a secure environment, hence training the the ANP and
ANA ... read people, read...
Jack
> person newly returned from Afghanistan) that it is not necessarily the
> way we see it reported (oh the surprise!) that much is being done to
> help and that at a certain point the NGOs can be more involved and
> help with the day to day living. Currently Afghanis live in fear of
> Taliban.
>
have served there...and they all tell me the same thing. It's a
glacially-slow process but it is happening. I might take another 10
years..or 5...or 15...but as the younger generation start to think for
themselves..and see there's another world out there..it will happen.
My prediction is we will be out of Afghanistan (due to politics) but the
US and Brits will remain (they always do the heavy lifting).
> Although I hate war I could be in favour of really bombing the Taliban
> nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
> government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
> wealth.
They are so spread out in cells that you'd have to nuke the mountains
with megatons...and I don't think that would be palatable either
internationally or domestically...
Jack
>
> the job will never be "done"
You're such a positive person...must be a joy to live with
Halifax_Hooligan
Don't forget propping up a corupt, puppet government.
Yet none of the 9-11 bombers were Afghans, most were fron Saudi
Arabia ,or elsewhere in the Middle East. Last weeks bomb attemot was
by a Nigerian , supplied in Yemen. So why has the West done nothing to
change the hearts and minds of citizens in these countries?
Halifax_Hooligan
You could be there 100 years and you won't change the people, it has
to come from inside themselves. It's a mideval place, ruled by
warlords, and drug lords.
Introducing "democracy" and hoping it will stick is a pipe dream.
The warlords and drug lords know the populace better than westerners
ever will, so unless you totally eradicate them, the place will just
eventually slide back intowhat it was pre-2001.
> > Although I hate war I could be in favour of really bombing the Taliban
> > nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
> > government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
> > wealth.
>
> They are so spread out in cells that you'd have to nuke the mountains
> with megatons...and I don't think that would be palatable either
> internationally or domestically...- Hide quoted text -
>
Well teh Americans haven't nuked anyone in 60 yrears, they are
probably itching to lob one of those puppies at someone. If they
werenot afraid of pissing off the Pakistanis they wouldahve done so
years ago.
Jack
Here we go again:
one more time for the slow learners...
Afghanistan was allowing the terror camps where the 9-11 bombers trained
and were supported. The US asked the Taliban gov't to give up these
FOREIGNERS for trail, but the Taliban said no. Hence the US and the
West, WITH UN approval (altho not needed) went in and took them out.
The Taliban could still be in power today..but they chose to be a
terrorist state.
Subsequently elections were held and the present president was elected.
Is it perfect? not at all. But it gives the country a chance, one
they would never had had, to become a legitimate nation. Its a work in
progress.
Jack
>
> You could be there 100 years and you won't change the people, it has
> to come from inside themselves. It's a mideval place, ruled by
> warlords, and drug lords.
> Introducing "democracy" and hoping it will stick is a pipe dream.
> The warlords and drug lords know the populace better than westerners
> ever will, so unless you totally eradicate them, the place will just
> eventually slide back intowhat it was pre-2001.
>
A democracy is the goal, however something else, whatever it is, as long
as it's stable and brings Afghan out of its failed state past will
suffice. Even an Iran-style government is better than what they had.
>>> Although I hate war I could be in favour of really bombing the Taliban
>>> nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
>>> government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
>>> wealth.
>> They are so spread out in cells that you'd have to nuke the mountains
>> with megatons...and I don't think that would be palatable either
>> internationally or domestically...- Hide quoted text -
>>
> Well teh Americans haven't nuked anyone in 60 yrears, they are
> probably itching to lob one of those puppies at someone. If they
> werenot afraid of pissing off the Pakistanis they wouldahve done so
> years ago.
>
There's no chance in hell that the West will use nukes in Afghan or
Pakistan. What we need is a "nude bomb" a la Get Smart.
J Smith
truth most of the time.
"kozmo" <novasc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d8991502-35cf-44be...@u37g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
Jack
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:03:56 -0400, Jack <bigc...@yahoo.com.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Although I hate war I could be in favour of really bombing the Taliban
>>> nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
>>> government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
>>> wealth.
>> They are so spread out in cells that you'd have to nuke the mountains
>> with megatons...and I don't think that would be palatable either
>> internationally or domestically...
>
> cells, so they left no survivors (and yes, I realise the Taliban quite
> deliberately have women and children there) so I believe other cells
> would start disperse. The Taliban need to see forceful resolve on
> the part of allies, not caving to political feelings and the media.
>
> It's not nice but I don't remember war being nice, it's why it is far
> better not to start them in the first place.
If "only" this was a conventional war...Op Medusa was the last time the
Taliban went force on force with us...and we(Canadians) virtually wiped
them out. They learned...the hard way but it sort of backfired on us in
that they took the battle underground..hit and run. Very seldom over
there is there contact with the enemy. Its mostly mines and IEDs. I'm
hoping like hell the West's superior technology will find a solution for
detecting ALL hidden bombs SOON.
kozmo
> you have more faith than I do. I'm not sure they are even close to the
> truth most of the time.
>
i never said i believe them.
kozmo
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:52:26 -0800 (PST), kozmo
>
> <novascrol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >the majority of the Chinese people live in fear of their government as
> >well.
>
> both their parents are free to come and go now without hindrance from
> the Beijing crowd. Usually spend the summers with their kids and
> then go back to China for the winter. Time was (as recently as the
> 80s) when getting out of China didn't happen.
>
> They tell me that it is getting harder for total control given travel
> from the country and the net.
so when do we invade china?
Al Smith
>
> "Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0184ad6c$0$14949$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>> KANDAHAR, Afghanistan � A Calgary-based journalist became the first
>> Canadian reporter to die in Afghanistan when she was killed Wednesday
>> along with four Canadian soldiers by an improvised explosive device.
>>
>> The five deaths in a relatively safe part of Kandahar city represented
>> the worst loss of life for the Canadian mission in Afghanistan in
>> two-and-a-half-years.
>>
>> >snip<
>>
>> http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9014647.html
>>
>> >snip<
>>
>> Darn shame. Why are we there? Debated to death, so I guess these five,
>> sadly, don't matter to most Canadians. Sigh...
>>
>> What a sick society of sheep we live in... tonight I'll mourn these
>> additional 5 who were sent in harm's way by our government for no good
>> reason. Please bring the rest home alive, Stephen Harper. Oh sorry,
>> forgot, you prorogued parliament until March so you could to go to the
>> Olympics.
>>
>> Ice!
>
> Sure people care. And all good reasons have a high cost. This is no
> different.
I care. That one of the reasons I think we should not be in
Afghanistan.
-Al-
Brian Smith
>
> so when do we invade china?
Wait for awhile, the States will do it eventually. :^)
Brian Smith
>
> They can't afford to, China holds them tight financially.
They can't afford to do a lot, yet they do.
JD
<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:445qj518n8mo2dls5...@4ax.com...
> that feeds, most dogs understand that.
Yeah. But they are 'muricans. Not the same as a dog.
Brian Smith
>
> The crunch cometh I think but it is never a good idea to bite the hand
> that feeds, most dogs understand that.
That's the difference though, the Americans aren't the smartest form of
life on the planet. They will bite the hand that feeds them, no matter
what the hand is doing.
Halifax_Hooligan
Their military, with the exception of the navy, is about on par with
the US. I think they could field more ground troops. So the States are
unlikely to go after them.
Also as others have posted,much of the US debt is owed to China, so a
healthy US economy and dollar is good for the Chinese.
JD
"Halifax_Hooligan" <skepti...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:855d5d45-3a5e-4b6d...@z7g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
*** Not really. The Chinese could field several times the size of the US
military in ground forces. However, the US technological superiority is
overwhelming; particularly in the air as well as their navy. That is not to
say the US could invade and win; they couldn't. But they are still vastly
superior to the Chinese forces in all respects except numbers of infantry.
Al Smith
The US won't go after China because the US has never fought anyone
who could offer more than a token resistance since WW2 ... and
even then they had to be dragged into the war kicking and
screaming. They don't mind kicking someone who is unconscious on
thel ground, but aren't happy about anyone shooting back at them
for real.
-Al-
Rob
> The US won't go after China because the US has never fought anyone who
> could offer more than a token resistance since WW2 ... and even then
> they had to be dragged into the war kicking and screaming. They don't
> mind kicking someone who is unconscious on thel ground, but aren't happy
> about anyone shooting back at them for real.
>
> -Al-
But yet they still get their ass kicked on a regular basis.
Best
"Hawk" <kenham...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:1Z1%m.59666$PH1.56809@edtnps82...
> Foreigners can't change Afghanistan, they have to change
> themselves.
>
> Truer words were never spoken.
would happen? The bullies and the gangs would take over (read Al-Quada) make
everyone work for them, kill and torture those who failed to comply, set up
drug networks etc. Now, imagine that those prisoners had the ability to
acquire larger weapons (read nuclear weapons) that could devastate the
world? In Afghanistan, the Allies are protecting their own (and the World's)
interests, by putting in place a system that will allow Afghans to decide
for themselves. It has been a bumpy road, but the time to quit is not now.
The world has changed. We will never see a conventional war again. Pulling
into our own country, putting our head in the sand, and waiting to be
attacked will then be too late. Your children, and theirs, will either be
dead, or wearing turbans and forcibly be praying 5 times a day. I guess you
would rather have that happen, by the sounds of your email.
Best
<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:i8cpj5holkei0is28...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:05:47 -0800 (PST), kozmo
> <novasc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 31, 9:56 am, lucretiabor...@fl.it wrote:
>>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:48:45 GMT, "Hawk" <kenhamilG...@accesswave.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >themselves.
>>>
>>> >Truer words were never spoken.
>>>
>>
>>change to what?
>
> Change to a better place for them to live. I hear (some of it from a
> person newly returned from Afghanistan) that it is not necessarily the
> way we see it reported (oh the surprise!) that much is being done to
> help and that at a certain point the NGOs can be more involved and
> help with the day to day living. Currently Afghanis live in fear of
> Taliban.
>
> nests up in the hills, both on the border and inside Pakistan. Their
> government is helpless, mired down in nepotism and control of personal
> wealth.
total of 2 years in various parts of Afghanistan. The situation is totally
unlike anything we are hearing. We only hear the bad. I have spent many
hours listening to the first-hand reports, seeing the pictures, and hearing
the truth. LB, you are right on the money. Hit them hard, hit them steadily,
and continue the rebuilding efforts. It will be the best money ever spent.
Best
"Brian Smith" <Hal...@NovaScotia.Canada> wrote in message
news:hhj4jh$jbk$6...@news.eternal-september.org...
Brian Smith
>
> *Your tendency to generalize about US citizens is really quite sickening.
You can take medication to combat that feeling if it truly bothers you.
Other than that, you can move along as there apparently is nothing for
you to see here (that you like).
Best
"Jack" <bigc...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:4b3ccf59$0$5335$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
> Halifax_Hooligan wrote:
>> On Dec 31, 11:58 am, Jack <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote:
>>> Hawk wrote:
>>>> Foreigners can't change Afghanistan, they have to change
>>>> themselves.
>>>> Truer words were never spoken.
>>> the majority up in a secure environment, hence training the the ANP and
>>> ANA ... read people, read...
>>
>> Don't forget propping up a corupt, puppet government.
>>
>> Yet none of the 9-11 bombers were Afghans, most were fron Saudi
>> Arabia ,or elsewhere in the Middle East. Last weeks bomb attemot was
>> by a Nigerian , supplied in Yemen. So why has the West done nothing to
>> change the hearts and minds of citizens in these countries?
>
> Here we go again:
>
> one more time for the slow learners...
>
> Afghanistan was allowing the terror camps where the 9-11 bombers trained
> and were supported. The US asked the Taliban gov't to give up these
> FOREIGNERS for trail, but the Taliban said no. Hence the US and the West,
> WITH UN approval (altho not needed) went in and took them out.
> The Taliban could still be in power today..but they chose to be a
> terrorist state.
>
> Subsequently elections were held and the present president was elected. Is
> it perfect? not at all. But it gives the country a chance, one they
> would never had had, to become a legitimate nation. Its a work in
> progress.
*Right, it is not perfect, but will improve each time, especially with
better security. I would imagine if it were 1867 in Canada, and someone was
writing the reports of the goings on in our first election, it would not be
a pretty story. I personally remember the vote buying, bottles of rum,
stuffing ballots, "helping" people vote in rural NS, and that was almost 200
years, and countless elections later.
Al Smith
What a bizarre post. What has a prison to do with a foreign
country? The implication is that everyone in Afghanistan is a
criminal. They aren't. They are citizens of Afghanistan, their own
country. A place American and Canadian troops have no business
being in.
The excuses as to why US and Canadian military forces are in this
foreign land on the other side of the world are just so much hot
air and scare-mongering. Afghanistan can take care of itself. What
happens there is not our business.
If a handful of criminals plot to explode bombs on our planes,
then we send in a small squad to capture of kill that handful of
criminals. We do not invade and occupy the entire friggin' coungry
for ten years!
-Al-
Al Smith
No, the comment is correct. The United States authorities are
acting like a pack of mad dogs. They deserves criticism. And the
US does bite the hands of its friends, always. Look what happened
to the Shah of Iran. The US set him up in power, and then when he
needed US help, you abandoned him. Look at Vietnam. When the South
needed you the most, you abandoned it. You always abandon your
friends at the first opportunity, when it is perceived by you as
in your interests.
-Al-
Al Smith
Sometimes the US run into more resistance to their plans than they
bargained for. Vietnam was a big surprise to the US military. So
will Afghanistan be, in a few more years.
-Al-
Al Smith
> *I agree, 110%. My direct relative and another man have returned, after
> a total of 2 years in various parts of Afghanistan. The situation is
> totally unlike anything we are hearing. We only hear the bad. I have
> spent many hours listening to the first-hand reports, seeing the
> pictures, and hearing the truth. LB, you are right on the money. Hit
> them hard, hit them steadily, and continue the rebuilding efforts. It
> will be the best money ever spent.
Same old, same old. "We only hear the bad." Sure we do. Funny
about that, that's what all occupying armies say. They are doing
so much good, they say, but we only hear about the bad. Yet
strangely enough, the people they subjugate always hate their
guts. Go figure.
-Al-
Al Smith
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:01:04 -0400, "Best"<who...@noone.fr> wrote:
>
>
> I personally remember the vote buying, bottles of rum,
>> stuffing ballots, "helping" people vote in rural NS, and that was almost 200
>> years, and countless elections later.
>
>
> couldn't quite believe it !
Damn, I wish those days were back again! If I could get something
I could actually use from a politician, for voting for him (or at
least saying I would vote for him), that would be something in my
hand that the politician had done for me ... whereas, in our
present system, I get nothing from the politicians I vote for, and
nothing from the politicians I don't vote for.
-Al-
Al Smith
> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:47:41 GMT, Al Smith<inv...@address.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Damn, I wish those days were back again! If I could get something
>> I could actually use from a politician, for voting for him (or at
>> least saying I would vote for him), that would be something in my
>> hand that the politician had done for me ... whereas, in our
>> present system, I get nothing from the politicians I vote for, and
>> nothing from the politicians I don't vote for.
>>
>> -Al-
>
> "Give me your money"
> "You can't hold me up, I'm an MP"
> "Oh okay, give me my money then!"
It's funny because it's true.
-Al-
demibee
> Sometimes the US run into more resistance to their plans than they
> bargained for. Vietnam was a big surprise to the US military. So will
> Afghanistan be, in a few more years.
It might even get worse. CNN was talking about a strike (or something)
against Yemen the other day... something to do with the Christmas bomber.
Seems the degree of infiltration by Al Qaeda is deeper and wider than a
mere cell here and there.
I really am starting to wonder if an all-out "West-vs-Middle East" war is
slowly on its way.
db
Al Smith
Yemen, Pakistan, Iran, they are all in the running for a major US
air strike and/or possible invasion. Why? Not for any good reason,
that's for sure. The main driver for all US adventurism in the
Middle East is Israel, which acts through AIPAC and its other
pressure organs in Washington. There is money to be made from
military opportunism, for those who make and sell the weapons,
supply the troops, and so on. That is why so many in the US are
willing to go along with the Zionist pressure. It enriches them.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> Sometimes the US run into more resistance to their plans than they
> bargained for. Vietnam was a big surprise to the US military. So will
> Afghanistan be, in a few more years.
>
> -Al-
True, Al. The US is not evil . . . they just poke their nose where
it is not wanted or needed and get it flicked now and then. Too bad
good, young soldiers die in the process. I wonder if any of the 59K+ US
GIs who died in Vietnam made the world a better place. I stood at The
Wall in DC a number of years ago, shed a tear for the dead of my
generations and asked that question.
Ice!
Ice Age
>
> Same old, same old. "We only hear the bad." Sure we do. Funny about
> that, that's what all occupying armies say. They are doing so much good,
> they say, but we only hear about the bad. Yet strangely enough, the
> people they subjugate always hate their guts. Go figure.
>
> -Al-
History repeats itself.
There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Ice!
Al Smith
If there was any value or purpose in the Vietnam war for the
United States, I can't see it. The Communists won in the end,
anyway. The war cost a fortune and ran up the national debt for
the US for the first time in its history. I'd say the lives of
every American military person who died in Vietnam died for
absolutely nothing. I say the same thing about the Canadian troops
dying in Afghanistan. It is accomplishing nothing at all, and is a
total waste.
-Al-
Al Smith
Great song. I sometimes listen to it and think how little things
change.
-Al-