Woodshop discussion

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Its been a year and we haven't had anyone take over the wood shop area. Nor has it been used that much. If youve come in last week youll have noticed the CNC and Metal shop has pushed out into that space.

Also the odd little table that was in the wood shop has been placed outside, so we finally have an outside table (albeit a rickety one)!

Were at a point now where were having trouble finding room for the radial arm saw and possibly even the wood band saw.

I want to start a discussion about that, and also provide my recommendation, which is to push to move all wood work outside.

Wood tools are extremely mobile these days and I think we could swap out our existing radial (which is making it hard to walk in back, let alone safely cut) for a mobile table or miter saw (your pick)

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[Jerry Davis]

Has a shopsmith been considered? We could have a lot of the tools a woodworking shop would need. Not all of them of course, and no all in 1 tool can ever be as good as good separate tools can. But I used to have a woodshop in my basement, and I know how much area separate tools need -- a lot!

Jerry

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Michael Mathers <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am a brand new member but I think remarkable things could be done to better situate the shop (I do woodworking).  But I agree, the RAS is not good and shouldn't be there (if anywhere) but I would be sad to see wood shop capabilities disappear.

Michael

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[Will Bradley]

If I was stranded on a desert island and had to choose a non-hand power saw, I'd choose a table saw. Bandsaws are safer, but quite limited. We do have a handheld circular saw ("Skilsaw") which combined with an outdoor bench is quite versatile.

Here's currently what we've got, wood-wise, off the top of my head (links are to our internal tool database):

- Radial arm saw

- Wood bandsaw

- Metal bandsaw (could swap blades? suboptimal)

- Combo stationary belt/circular sander (unused)

- Table saw (unused?)

- Skilsaw (handheld circular)

- Handheld sander (rarely used)

In the current configuration, the radial is a definite candidate for selling. It's more precise than a bandsaw, but I've heard it's more dangerous and less versatile than a table saw (can a woodworker confirm?)

The table saw and the stationary sander have never been properly set up for use.

The wood bandsaw doesn't take up too much space, but if we got rid of it we'd be left with only a Skilsaw or metal bandsaw for wood cutting which seems suboptimal. I like the low-power, low-noise nature of bandsaws compared to table saws, though their precision isn't the best.

What really matters, though, is what members use the space for. I bought a small power sander for the lab years ago and I've never seen it used. What kind of stuff do you make and what tools do you care about?

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[Ben Humpherys]

I asked my dad about the radial-arm saw vs table saw thing. He said the two simply perform different functions, with the radial arm saw being a little more specialized. A table saw can do pretty much everything, but a radial arm saw works better when doing many short cuts, like with 2x4 planks. Nether one is inherently more dangerous. They will both eat a finger quite readily.

I also recall seeing the blade on that table saw exposed. That blade can be adjusted, and should be fully retracted when not in use. Someone in an earlier thread expressed concern that a table saw blade was 'hidden'. This isn't generally a concern because the very top of the blade should be visible above the top of the wood being cut. Safety-wise, I think they are comparable, personally. They can both be misused, and are both capable of doing serious damage. 

[Corey Renner]

I know a lot of machinists, a few have pieces of fingers missing.  In all cases, the body parts were lost on woodworking equipment, not metalworking.  The blade speeds and coarseness of the cutters make them extremely unforgiving.

cheers,

c

[Ben Humpherys]

In my opinion, the trouble with the wood shop is that we haven't got someone or somewhere to be exposed to all the possibilities that exist with woodworking. And I don't think we have sufficient 'serious' woodworking tools to be able to attract someone who is really into woodworking who could show us the potential. And without some passionate woodworkers, it would be difficult to justify the expense of something like a shopsmith, or more specialized woodworking tools like a wood lathe or planer. But if all we have is the basic tools that any amateur woodworker would have, what would the incentive be to use the ones at hsl?

Our current stock of woodworking tools is probably insufficient to attract the sort of passionate people who would take charge and turn the wood shop into something great. With space being at a premium, its not really possible to make the needed investment into woodworking.

[Will Bradley]

Indeed. Counter point, wood is a great prototyping and construction material; plywood on the laser is quite popular and inexpensive. I think we need at least one relatively-safe wood saw ready-to-go in order to have a well-functioning lab, if only to rough in large pieces of stock.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Ben Humpherys <moog...@gmail.com> wrote:

In my opinion, the trouble with the wood shop is that we haven't got someone or somewhere to be exposed to all the possibilities that exist with woodworking. And I don't think we have sufficient 'serious' woodworking tools to be able to attract someone who is really into woodworking who could show us the potential. And without some passionate woodworkers, it would be difficult to justify the expense of something like a shopsmith, or more specialized woodworking tools like a wood lathe or planer. But if all we have is the basic tools that any amateur woodworker would have, what would the incentive be to use the ones at hsl?

Our current stock of woodworking tools is probably insufficient to attract the sort of passionate people who would take charge and turn the wood shop into something great. With space being at a premium, its not really possible to make the needed investment into woodworking.

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[Jerry Davis]

I haven't looked at the radial arm saw too much. But unless the head on the radial arm saw can swivel 90 degrees you can't rip longer pieces, so a table saw is a must. But not having a serious wood shop, it probably wouldn't make any difference anyway.

Ben said : "But if all we have is the basic tools that any amateur woodworker would have, what would the incentive be to use the ones at hsl?". I would like to answer that. SPACE. I had a basement full of woodworking tools when I lived elsewhere, now all the space I have is for a skill saw and a portable drill. If hsl had the tools I would use them. The other is the EXPENSE. Any serious project requires serious tools. And serious tools cost serious money. So unless we get a endowment or something. I don't really see it happening anytime soon.

jerry

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[Nate Caine]

(1) It would have made more sense to post this discussion *before* rearranging the shop than afterwards.  This isn't so much asking for input as it is announcing the result.

 

(2) During better weather, using the outback makes sense.  However we are now entering the colder and perhaps wetter season.  My concerns around using portable woodworking equipment outside is mostly about those back stairs.  Nothing much could be easily rolled outside as would be the case with a level floor.  People more likely to hurt themselves or damage/drop equipment.

 

(3) Previously it was proposed to have modular shop equipement that one could set up to accomplish a given tasks.  (Table saw, router, drill press, sanders, etc.)    In my opinion that doesn't works for HeatSync.  A *home* shop where workspace is at a preminum would allow a *single* user to set up, work, clean up and then store the equipment away.  At HeatSync you have *many* users often using the same area at the same time.  I think the equipment needs to be set up and ready to use at all time.  Then the user needs only to do some clean up and put the tools away.  (No moving equipment, laying out power cords, etc.) 

 

    Image drilling a hole under both scenarios. 

   

    (a) Put the drill in the chuck.  Drill the hole.  Remove the bit.  Clean up. 

 

    versus

 

    (b) Wheel out the drill press.  Pull it up the staris.  Find some power cords.  See if any outlets are available.  THEN you actually can drill a hole.  Oh, and when you are done, cart the thing back down the stairs.  Bundle up the power cords, etc.  Optionally,  render first aid to those who tripped over things.

 

 

 

 

[Ben Humpherys]

I agree with nate. Moving equipment outside every time someone wants to use it isn't a very good solution. It puts up another small barrier between someone and the completion of their project. It would still require storage inside, unless we have some lockable outside storage.

I would really hate to reduce our woodworking capabilities though. Actually, building speaker cabinets is on my list of projects I want to undertake sometime.

I propose the space underneath the table we put under the tool board be reserved for woodworking tools. We discard the floor standing tools like the radial arm saw, band saw, and sander in favor of more compact ones that can be stored under the tables until someone is ready to use them. That should save space but still keep them easily accessible. Just pull the desired tool out and set it on a table.

We have a small table saw already. We could ditch the radial arm saw for a miter saw. Smaller band saws exist. So do sanding machines just like the one sitting in disrepair right now. We have several other smaller woodworking tools buried under the other table.

If we find another place for the kitchen stuff, that space could store more tools. Or maybe even another table. That would give us more precious work space to boot.

We should also get rid of redundant tools. There is a second drill press sitting unused and taking up space under a table, for example.

[Nate Caine]

The dust generated by woodworking has never been addressed.  Pretty soon you're going to have sawdust mixed in with the rest of the mess (metal shavings and cutting oil).

 

And I still don't agree with the idea of storing equipement and then having to set it up.

 

That may work for special use stuff like the foam hot-knife cutter, or coil winding machine sotred under the nuts-n-bolts workbench out front.

 

But I don't think it works for drill presses, saws, sanders.  It's just too much to set up and break down each time.

 

[Jerry Davis]

yeah. dust gets into everything. even with a dust collection system.

a woodworking shop would be better if it were dedicated. for instance.

if we really wanted a woodworking shop, it would actually be better if there were 2 different areas. say the one where we are now (140 W) and another one nearby that would be for woodworking. that way the dust from woodwork shop would not contaminate the machine shop. 

I am not saying that this would be something we should necessarily do, but it would be something to look at, if we really wanted to bring this up a notch.

jerry

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[JR]

What was it- one week ago when we were discussing how often people stall the RAS.  When I was in on Friday for the welding class, sure enough, first attempt of someone to use the saw he didn't control it and it stalled.  So I spent a couple minutes showing him how to use it right and then some of the other students in the class noticed the blade wasn't aligned right.  We spent some time trying to figure out whether the stop was worn or just misadjusted.  Without taking it apart, we weren't able to adjust the stop, so we set it as best we could.

Especially with the recent addition of the CNC, I think our current space is growing away from woodworking.   If we get a larger space, we could look at it then.

One other consideration is that woodshops are reasonably common in private garages, while metalworking shops are less so.  Combine that with the availability of effective portable tools, and the combination probably explains the lack of drive in the woodshop.

Personally, I have a reasonably complete woodshop in my garage - that I've offered for other members to use on numerous occasions.  So while the lab doesn't have a woodshop, it's about like the casting- there's an option available.

[Ben Humpherys]

A proper space with ample room for really nice woodworking tools and a sawdust collection system would be freaking awesome. If that could be done, we should do it.

But without the space and power to go all out, anything else will be at least somewhat sub-optimal. Given the constraints of our current area, I think going for smaller tools that can be stored under the tables is the best option to save space without sacrificing capability. Take the broken sander, for example. This craftsman has the exact same size sanding belts and disc (near as i can tell). The difference is just that the craftsman doesn't have a floor-stand, just feet to be set on a table. The only setup would be hefting it from the floor to the table, plugging it in, and flipping a switch. It's not fantastic, but I think it could work if we keep them from being buried in other crap. 

As for sawdust, more and more wood tools are coming with their own bags for collecting the sawdust. Beyond that, though, people would just have to vacuum it with the shop vac. I don't think it would be a big issue, but that's not a guarantee that it couldn't become an issue.

 This miter saw would probably serve as a good replacement for the radial arm saw for most of the cutting people probably do, but wouldn't need to be in everyone's way all the time. Hopefully it would be more intuitive to use for the inexperienced. I am honestly perplexed as to how people look at that radial arm saw and think you pull it outwards when cutting instead of pushing in. The shape of the blade shield is clearly designed to lift up over the woof when it is pushed forwards.................

And its very possible the CNC machine could revive woodworking somewhat. Wood is far cheaper and easier to machine than any metal, so it would make a good candidate for many projects on the machine, especially for practice.

[Will Bradley]

Only reason I wouldn't want a miter saw is that you're limited to cross-cuts, any cut longer than 10 inches has to be done on something else (and despite having the Skilsaw for years, I've never seen anyone use it.) Good points though. As long as we have some way to cut a 2x4 within ~1 minute of walking in the space, I think our basics are covered.

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[Michael Mathers]

The reason a RAS is sometimes considered more dangerous is can "climb" the wood (ie, come towards you).  If your finger/hand is in the path of the saw that's a problem, although I contest that's a problem no matter what saw you use.  I _never_ have my hands in the path of the saw.  On the other hand, a tablesaw can throw the wood at you if it gets pinched.  In fact if a tablesaw was out of alignment the way the RAS was a few days ago it very might be throwing wood right now. :-)

Tablesaws you be run with the blade-guard on almost all the time.  There is rarely a legitimate need to take it off.  My suggestion is to make sure we get a tablesaw (assuming we even have a tablesaw) where the blade guard is easily removed and put on.  If it is difficult to remove and replace it will be removed and stay removed.

I agree with Ben H. regarding the types of tools.  The bandsaw is nice but you can't do serious work without a way to joint boards.  Nor could serious work without some manner of dust control.  But you can't attract serious work without (in my opinion) a decent tablesaw (not a skilsaw), jointer, and face planer.  

Space idea:  I know I'm just a noob to HSL and have no history here yet so if my idea is dumb.  Please politely excuse me. :-)  I'm sure there are many valuable and interesting things in the roughly 400 sq ft on the second floor.  But is it really so valuable that the space couldn't be better used than "junk" storage?  A $50/mo storage locker would essentially allow that space to be completely used as SPACE.  If you think about the cost of rent/sq ft.  That's a pretty cheap upgrade to the space.  Would it be a bit inconvenient for the "useful junk" ?  Maybe.  But for the possibility of a real wood shop it sounds enticing to me.  It would keep dust out of the machine shop area, probably help with the sound issues from wood tools (btw, decent table saws use induction motors instead of universal motors which are much louder).  Just a crazy idea.

Michael Mathers

[Ryan Mcdermott]

One thing to consider is that the woodworking tools are more approachable than a CNC mill.  I can walk in the back, turn on a saw, and cut down some wood.

I cannot do the same thing with a CNC Mill, I need to get certified on it first, and if the classes for the mill end up being anything like the classes for the laser/welder/lathes/mills/etc, there could be a LONG time that members can't use the tools in a large part of our lab.

(That isn't meant as a critique of the people running those classes, by the way.  It's a scaling problem.  We don't have enough members to support a regularly scheduled class for those tools, so the classes happen when enough people get together and ask for them).

To me, disappearing the woodshop and replacing it with an area for CNC milling means that the lab has gotten a lot smaller.  That's a whole bunch of space that I now can't use until a class forms, and I take it.

Personally, and I'm biased, because I have used that space for exactly this purpose, I would have loved to see the area where the "woodshop" was transform into a "large projects" workspace.  Right now, we don't really have any places to build big things.

Again, I want to reiterate that I love that we now have a CNC mill, and I can't wait to get into a class for it, but also wanted to offer up some personal thoughts on "losing" that space back there.

To the original question: what is the possibility of turning our "loading zone" parking spot into an outdoor project space?  Now that the weather has gotten sane, working outdoors is feasible.  Is putting a fenced-in "cage" that has a lock on it possible?  (Or even desirable?)

Also if the question comes down to "what should we ditch the RAS for?" my answer is: portable table saw and miter saw.  (Although I'd probably want to build infeed/outfeed tables for the table saw)

-Ryan

Michael Mathers

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[Short Tie]

I love working with wood. Like many posts have mentioned it is less expensive, flexible, and super usable to prototype with. One big draw back is the dust. I have worked with a couple different dust collection methods, and though most seem to catch a majority of the dust generated, there is always some left over the needs sweeping up. And once in the air, it does tend to float around before it lands. Having the wood and metal stuff right next to each other I think is a recipe for frustration.

I am doing a bit of a refactor on my home right now, and the dust from the table saw, chop saw, and skil-saw finds its way into all kinds of corners, even with me sweeping up after each use. The ability to open the garage door and let get some air flow while working seems to help a lot. But me keeping that in one area, that is closed off from the rest of the house also helps keep that dust from filling my cereal bowl in the morning.

Additionally wood projects tend to be bigger, and need time to dry, and take more than an evening to complete. The space needed to make some really cool stuff is just more than what we have right now.

Things that we do are messy, and that mess is awesome! But sometimes we need to contain the mess so that others can also make messes. To really get some serious wood work going, I agree that there needs to be a dedicated space that is contained. It is dangerous enough to be using those tools, without people walking by with out safety glasses(possibly getting injured themselves), and bumping into someone working on a project (possibly causing a safety issue for someone else or messing up their project). And I do hear more about people loosing fingers in wood working than other things available at HSL.

[Will Bradley]

Kinda funny that we require a whole certification class for the slow-spinning machines and not the fast-spinning machines, now that I think about it. Maybe saws are just more common than lathes, so people are already used to them...

Michael, what are you suggesting to do with upstairs? Make it a member storage area, or a wood area? We can't have people staying upstairs too much, since there's only one fire exit. (Code requires two. Maybe we can add a rope ladder?)

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[Brian Aday]

One question, how many mills do we actually need? The space isn't large enough to support more than one or two people working at a time. I am all for having a metal shop, it is an important capability for the community to have. But the reality is the space is barely used. We can discuss the reasons for that, but the fact is undeniable. Our new mill was an upgrade, and a good one. Why are we holding on to redundant machines that aren't being used?

What happened to the idea of moving the kitchen up front? No one is using that space, likely because it is filthy. If someone doesn't like the aesthetics of having a kitchen up front, why don't we put it all in a cabinet? People do their eating and drinking upfront, that's where the stuff should be also. 

+1 to Ryan's point, there are lower barriers to entry into woodworking. There are many more things that have been built at Heatsync using wood than metal. 

[Will Bradley]

I'm wondering about the perception that a table saw is safer than a mini lathe is safer than the full-size lathe. Can anyone more experienced comment on that? Currently we train people on the mini equipment first, then the big equipment, meaning the daily usage per metal tool is somewhat low.

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[Jasper Nance]

I actually think the metal shop gets used more than people realize. Several people come during the day to work on the big lathe as I often find it plugged in and the compound set at an angle. Multiple times a week in fact.

 

I just think that the people who use it do so most often in he day and are very good at cleaning up after themselves.

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[Jerry Davis]

i don't think this is a matter of metal vs woodworking.

this should not degernerate into my space gets used more than yours type of discussion.

the laser has a lot of down time too. but should we say that maybe we need less room for the laser than something else? no, I think not.

the reason that hsl is so needed is that there are tools there that we can't (insert your reason here ....) have in our own homes.

the more good tools the better.

but the more tools we get for everyone's benefit the better.

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

...I don't really think that us discussing "how should we use the limited space that we have" is "degenerating" into anything.

This is a valid, useful, important discussion to have.

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[Will Bradley]

Here's a ridiculous thought experiment. What would happen if we got rid of the mini-mill, mini-lathe, and maybe even the big mill? There'd be enough space for a full woodshop, and we'd still have a lathe and mill. Would that be safe enough? What would we do with ~100sqft of woodshop space & who cares enough about wood to make it a reality?

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[Michael Mathers]

I was suggesting making it a wood area.  I think it would be large enough to do some serious work and would keep dust from getting elsewhere.  I think you could reasonable get a tablesaw, jointer, 2'x2' CNC router (not a mill), planer, and an assembly table no problem. 

However, if building codes are an issue then maybe it's just moot.  What are the limits surrounding people upstairs?

[Michael Mathers]

In my opinion, tablesaws should require training.  I have one and have done some woodworking for many years.  I've never used a mill though so I can't compare.  If you're just cross-cutting a 2'x4' on a tablesaw that's one thing but ripping, proper use of the fence, pushblocks, feather boards all become important when doing something more substantial.

[Will Bradley]

Upstairs is supposed to be just storage. If anyone is spending significant amounts of time up there, especially multiple people using equipment, I'm sure we'd need a second fire exit. ADA compliance is also an issue.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Michael Mathers <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was suggesting making it a wood area.  I think it would be large enough to do some serious work and would keep dust from getting elsewhere.  I think you could reasonable get a tablesaw, jointer, 2'x2' CNC router (not a mill), planer, and an assembly table no problem. 

However, if building codes are an issue then maybe it's just moot.  What are the limits surrounding people upstairs?

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[Nate Plamondon]

The cnc mill is a great addition, but cannot replace the manual mill(s). The prep time and design work are a significant barrier to its use. If I just need to flatten a surface, I can do that much faster manually.

The big mill/lathe might make the minis redundant, buying us about 30sqft; thoughts, machinists?

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Nate Plamondon
Sent from a tiny on-screen keyboard

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[Jasper Nance]

In a perfect world the bigger machines would replace the mini's but there are some snags. The most serious one is with the big mill. Its a horizontal mill with a vertical addition. The collets are very small and shallow and thus the tooling that can be used on the big mill is much more limited than what we can use on the mini mill with its R9 collet set. Other than that, I love the big mill because the table is large and rigid and the vertical axis is so smooth and makes plunging a dream.

 

The mini lathe is nice for really tiny stuff, like the electron gun exit apeture. If I dropped that piece on the big lathe I would never find it again as it would be burried in a sea of chips all under the ways in impossible to reach places. But we do have the micro lathe which would have worked perfectly for those small pieces too.

 

That said, I havn't actually used the mini mill or mini lathe in a while outside of classes.... But I also haven't needed to use a flycutter or 2" drill bit either.

[Brian Aday]

Anyone interested in modeling the shop(s) out in Sketchup? 

Woodworkers have been using it to lay out garage shops for quite a while now, all the standard woodworking machines are available as models. 

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Why does metal keep taking over? Because Jasper and Austin own those stations and run classes on them, keep them clean, and replace broken shit.

Wood will continue to disappear because no one has stepped up to run it, keep it clean, replace broken parts, and train others.

This is, btw, how heatsync is supposed to work.

Discussion is great but let me assure you, unless one of you actually acts, this is all yet more masturbation.

Wood needs a champion. Who is it?

[Ben Humpherys]

XD Jacob, you do remember that you were the original poster that started this convo, right?

Its totally true though. It will languish without someone willing to spend time teaching others and keeping the tools repaired. Though beyond replacing blades, they shouldn't really require much of any work to maintain if they are well-built. Key word "shouldn't".

I saw that someone had already done some cleaning out and organizing under the tables when I was in tonight. Thanks to whomever did that! Though I saw the mini table saw by the door. Is that going away?

I guess to sum things up, we don't have what it takes right now to really revitalize the woodworking part of things. With the way things are now, the largest area of concern seems to be the radial arm saw. It takes a fair bit of room and seems to have trouble with alignment and people just not knowing how to use it at all. Replacing the radial arm saw with a miter saw should address those issues well. 

Until someone willing to champion an expansion to the woodshop comes along, lets just put our effort on keep what we have in working order and readily available for what seems to be just basic needs right now. I can lend a hand here and there with that.

[Brian Aday]

Ultimately we have to think of Heatsync as an ecosystem. Too much of any one thing and it will die. We should be working toward a maximum number of capabilities in the space. 

I can't devote enough time to completely champion the wood shop space so I am interested in setting up a team.  I am starting a separate thread.

[Michael Mathers]

I understand and might be willing to help but ...  respectfully, what is there to champion?  I really don't see hardly any wood shop capability at all.  Without space there isn't much to nurture.  I have a good tablesaw and a planer I'd consider bringing but they would have nowhere to go. Wood tools tend to need more room simply because material sizes tend to be larger.  

The upstairs would be great but that is purportedly a no-go.  However, I'd like to confirm that.  Are we sure ADA says we can't do it? (does ADA actually apply to HSL?)  If someone has a quick link on fire regulations I'd like to look into that as well to make sure we really know what would be required and if there are ways to mitigate that.  For example, a fire escape ladder at the top of the stairs descending into Kipp hall might do it and would not take but the barest corner of floor space. I don't know what that would cost, but wood shop or not, 400 sq ft of more usable space has to be a good thing.

If we can't resolve the space issue or do not have the desire to as a community then there isn't anything for a champion to do. Swap the RAS for a decent benchtop compound miter saw and call it a day.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

The upstairs is 100% a no go.  The area up there is for storage, not to as additional square footage for our shop.

It isn't an ADA thing, it's a fire code thing.

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[Brian Aday]

I agree, that's what needs to be Championed. :) 

The discussions I have had with people in the community lead me to believe we want some ability to work in wood. To that end, benches were built, the band saw was loaned, the non-functional sander was loaned. The wood rack above the bench was created, as was the one in the metal working area.

If you want my opinion, this is a rough idea of what could be one possible path.

1) Identify the tools we should have for basic woodworking.

2) Propose Heatsync fund a portion, take donations.

3) Once everything is together in the space, set it all up. (I see this as a half a day project)

Lets get started.

MHO on new tools(Please add to this list):

Basic dust collection

Benchtop Miter saw

Highly portable table saw

Benchtop Scroll saw

Benchtop sander

Benchtop Planer

Jointer

[Jerry Davis]

i would say no to the highly portable table saw.

they are very heavy, and unless someone is around with a strong willing back ...

you need at least 2x the space + the table saw to rip a piece of plywood say. for instance if you had a 4x4 piece of plywood you want to rip in half. you would need  at least 8 feet + 1/2 the length of the table saw was. so that would be minimum of 10 feet in any single direction. well you get the picture.

it would be better to get a better table saw, and put it on wheels. I made a set when I had my shop. I sometimes had to roll it around to a better spot to rip something bigger or longer.

same thing with a jointer you need at least twice as much + 1/2 the length of the jointer bed.

just my $0.02

jerry

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[Brian Aday]

The safety of a table saw concerns me, but it was mentioned so it is on the list. 

Hey Jerry, what do you think of this? 119 lbs on a wheeled cart: http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/makita/us/products/2705X1.asp

[Jerry Davis]

that looks good for most projects, but personally I wouldn't rip a 4x8 sheet of plywood on it.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Brian Aday <proje...@gmail.com> wrote:

The safety of a table saw concerns me, but it was mentioned so it is on the list. 

Hey Jerry, what do you think of this? 119 lbs on a wheeled cart: http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/makita/us/products/2705X1.asp

--
 
 

[Brian Aday]

Me neither! The similar red table saw one in the back is mine, and when I use it I do the first round of cuts using the panel saw at Home Depot. For cutting big panels already on hand I opt for a decent guide and a good circular saw. 

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

nate I was trying to make a point, that just because a tool is not used all the time, doesn't mean that we should get rid of it.

the laser is hardly used during the day. but that is NO reason that it should be moved out to make room for other tools that are used more.

don't take this the wrong way.

[Jasper Nance]

I agree with this. There are many unique and valuable capabilities that can make or break a project that don't get used every day

 

IE the engraver, the heat treat oven, the TIG welder, the bandsaw.

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

Michael: you might not have been around to see the wood shop over the past year or so, but it's been intended for wood use for a while now. Only weeks ago were the benches rearranged and tools moved. The table saw and sander have never been set up and usable, though the band saw and radial get decent use.

I don't think anyone would propose getting entirely rid of tools that people use occasionally, guys and gals. Even if the laser or lathe only see action weekly, they're obviously still valuable. It's when nobody can remember a tool being used or anyone wanting to use it that the discussion starts getting serious. Witness the sad tale of the RepRap and, until recently, the Fakerbot: machines need to be usable to attract use.

[David Lesser]

If you'll allow a woodworker from your hackerspace neighbor to the south to weigh in...

first off, I don't believe a radial arm saw is especially important to have if you've got a table saw.  A simple cross-cut sled like this one: http://woodgears.ca/delta_saw/sled.html is really all you need to do right angle cross-cuts on long pieces of wood.  Which is mostly what you'd be doing anyways.  If you really want to do miters, you can make a cross cut sled at 45 degrees, too.   And I find RAS's to be a little scary, personally. 

Also, If people are interested in learning woodworking, I'll put in a plug for an upcoming workshop I'll be conducting at Xerocraft as an introduction to fine woodworking (learning by doing: make a copy of a coffee table I designed a while back: http://bit.ly/spEbTN ).  

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 5:37:01 PM UTC-7, Jacob Rosenthal wrote:

Its been a year and we haven't had anyone take over the wood shop area. Nor has it been used that much. If youve come in last week youll have noticed the CNC and Metal shop has pushed out into that space.

Also the odd little table that was in the wood shop has been placed outside, so we finally have an outside table (albeit a rickety one)!

Were at a point now where were having trouble finding room for the radial arm saw and possibly even the wood band saw.

I want to start a discussion about that, and also provide my recommendation, which is to push to move all wood work outside.

Wood tools are extremely mobile these days and I think we could swap out our existing radial (which is making it hard to walk in back, let alone safely cut) for a mobile table or miter saw (your pick)

Random links to convey style, not price or brand preference

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202757213&R=202757213

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Saws/h_d1/N-5yc1vZc28l/R-100090444/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

[Will Bradley]

I'd be interested in your opinion David, currently the only operable wood cutting in the lab is a RAS and bandsaw (specific models/photos linked by me earlier in the thread.) A loaned table saw and sander have stood in an unusable state for a few months but could be put to use.

The bandsaw gets a lot of use. Would you trade it for a table saw and throw out the RAS? What's your idea of the one critical saw?

--
 
 

[Brian Aday]

The little loaned table saw is very much in working order! I loaned it to Ryan M for one of his projects about 6 weeks ago. I usually keep it at home for safety and space reasons. It isn't on long term loan. Ryan, are you finished with it?

I can pull the sander back to my house, it just needs a disk. I can order a replacement for under 60 with shipping and it will be in working order, anyone willing to donate?

We can duplicate the capabilities of the RAS with one of these: Sliding compound miter saw . Unlike the RAS we can drop it on a shelf when we aren't using it. 

--
 
 

[David Lesser]

It's hard to say.  I'd strongly urge to keep the table saw, and ditch the RAS, since I believe they're too similar.  But a bandsaw is legitimately different.

Unfortunately, table saws require a lot of space in every direction (for cutting whole sheets of plywood, nearly 10'x20' of empty space is needed).  Plus, it sounds like your saw isn't in great shape.

Something to keep in mind is that a good bandsaw is pretty versatile- XC has one 14" 'wood' bandsaw I lent/donated which I have used to cut through 3" diameter aluminum ingots with ease.  If your 'metal' saw can be used vertically, a quick blade change is all you need to cut wood (and honestly, can be skipped if you dont have a ton of wood cutting to do).

Also, if you're not using your stationary belt/disk sander, we'd love to snag it. =D

David

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

a bandsaw and tablesaw or for two different things. it's not a one vs. the other.

RAS is inherently unsafe, and a sled can be made to do that on the tablesaw anyway (like David said). I know I made one 15 years ago.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Will Bradley <bradle...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[Brian Aday]

The sander is on long term long, no snagging please! :) 

We have two band saws, a wicked good metal cutting bandsaw and a generic 14 inch wood band saw. In the past I have had problems using a metal cutting band saw for wood, because the iron particles tend to embed in the wood and rust when you apply finish.

--
 
 

[Michael Mathers]

Agreed.  We would be very wise to build up a "library" of jigs and teach their use.  This will extend the capabilities of the tools we have.

[Jeremy Davis]

I honestly view HSL For finer things and unique things. I got a table saw and compound miter saw and belt sander but without more space I'd promote the more unique tools that can be managed so bandsaw or scroll saw and planer would be great. I just can't imagine pulling my truck up to HSL and ripping a bunch of 4x8 sheets of plywood or anything at the framing construction scale. Not to say would love to have the space and a dock and the stationary tools to do it. I'd push for unique tools within our scale and a couple foldable saw horses a chalk line and a circular saw to make do otherwise.

[Nate Caine]

I'm in agreement here, and Jeremy Davis said it well.  The majority of the members are better served with tools and equipment that they're not likely to have in a home shop.  Most the kinds of project at HSL are of a much smaller scale than cutting down 4'x8' sheets of plywood.  When that need arises, address it accordingly.  You don't need to build an entire shop around the possibility that every two months someone has to cut down plywood.

[Nate Caine]

This is off topic, but a few notes up someone mentioned the metal band saw.

 

We spent good money on a quality saw but, frankly, what some people have been doing to it is tragic.

 

Here's a good example of what that saw can do:

 

Recently some of our experienced machinist cut thru a railroad tie (to make a blacksmithing anvil) and it came out beautiful.

What this demonstrates is that with some patience, a proper cutting speed, and lubrication, that the saw performs really well.

 

--------------------

 

Now prior to this one person cut off some stock then walked away.

They left the machine sitting there with the original piece still bolted down and metal chips piled up.

(Don't worry, they fessed up, and cleaned up.  Extra well I might add.)

 

Another person, too busy to read the manual, overtightened the blade because they thought this was the feed rate adjustment.  (Ouch!  RTFM.)

 

---------------------

 

But here's the worst thus far:  

 

This is about 2~3 weeks ago now.

Basically someone destroyed a brand new blade. 

They neither mention this nor took responsibility.

So we are out a $35 blade so someone cut up a $1 piece of metal for some crap project.

 

They were too rushed, inpatient and inexperienced to do the job right.

This was not normal wear-and-tear.

 

It is astonishing to look at the blade and see over half the teeth missing. 

There is no way this was an oversight.  They chose to leave it that way.

 

It's irresponsible and disrespectful to the other members.

 

Doing the right thing when nobody is looking is a measure of character.  They failed that test miserably.

 

 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

What did the person do to destroy the blade?

 

 

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

I think it's important, when you open the door to let guests in, that we don't treat saws, hand tools, etc as if everyone knew how to use them properly. Maybe everyone *can* use a cordless drill or a bandsaw, but everyone can also break one and then where does that leave us? A minute helping the person get set up *properly* not only teaches them but prevents these kinds of issues.

I've told every new member to *ask* before using a tool. That's a good first step. The second step is to give a decent *answer.* If you're too busy, say so, but don't just let someone touch our tools without guidance. If you hear a disturbing noise, check it out.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Nate Caine <nate...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

--
 
 

[Rick Blake]

As a lurker, and potential member, woodshop is my first interest, followed by Arduino and 3D printing.  I'm going to have a bandsaw at home for 2 specific projects (Adirondack chairs and a garden bench), but a table saw would be handy.  And training is always appreciated.  After that, a joiner and drill press are next as tools I wouldn't normally buy if I could help it.  Dust collection is a huge pain to install, from what I know, but crucial in a multi-use space. 

I feel a like like a heel to join for 1-2 months to do a project and then disappear.  Does this happen a lot, and is it frowned on? Thanks!

On Nov 14, 2012 10:15 AM, "Nate Caine" <nate...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in agreement here, and Jeremy Davis said it well.  The majority of the members are better served with tools and equipment that they're not likely to have in a home shop.  Most the kinds of project at HSL are of a much smaller scale than cutting down 4'x8' sheets of plywood.  When that need arises, address it accordingly.  You don't need to build an entire shop around the possibility that every two months someone has to cut down plywood.

--
 
 

[Ben Humpherys]

If someone needs to cut apart huge plywood sheets, that CAN be done with some sawhorses and a skillsaw. It isn't ideal, but it can be done, and so isn't a limitation of what we have currently.

It seems pretty much everyone can agree that a tabletop miter saw would be a very good replacement for the RAS. So, honestly I don't think a table-saw, as versatile and useful as they are, is a priority because we don't have space for one, and probably not really even space to store a more portable one either. Between a skill saw and the miter saw we can do most of the same things, albeit with a tad more effort.

More specialized tools are definitely what we should prioritize. How large would a bench top joiner or planer be? If possible, having one of those stored on a shelf when not in use would work out quite well I think. Those are the only two tools I don't have access to at home.

As for dust collection systems, the simplest and cheapest thing to do would be to get tools that have dust collection built in. Many many many woodworking tools do now. They just have a bag or filter to catch it from the outlet. Between those and a shop-vac, we should be okay without expensive and intrusive dust collection for tools that will never be quite in the same spot all the time.

A table-top sander would be cool to have. 

The wood band saw is probably okay where it is. Bench-top band saws are available, but probably need a very sturdy table to be bolted down to, much like the drill presses.

Just keep in mind in all of this that we have no more space than we did before, so efficiently utilizing it is of utmost importance. I really think the best way to do this is to favor tools that can be stored underneath a table until it is time for them to be used. I think that would give us the best mix of table work space and tool capability.

[Michael Mathers]

There is a wood shop task team forming.  Let's see what that team can come up with in their efforts to maximize capability in a space-efficient way.  Perhaps we can come back to this discussion in a few weeks and discuss things more specifically?   I'm not trying to shut the conversation down or anything but we are starting to get long and repeating ourselves some.

[krikorik]

To all interested on wood finishing there is a free workshop

Regards,

Gregorio

 

Finishing Tips and Techniques
Presented by Joe Tripodi.
Get the answers to the great questions in finishing woodwork at this demonstration. Joe will cover the classics like how to choose the right finish for your project and the steps to take to assure good results.
Common questions answered in this demo:
How come my finish isn't smooth?
Should I use gloss, semi-gloss or flat?
What kind of finish do I use for outdoor projects?
What is a food safe finish for a cutting board?
When do I use a sealer?
What's the difference between stain and finish?
How much sanding should I do?
Joe will show the different ways apply finish (spraying hand rubbing, etc), and show you how to get good results that you'll be pleased with. He'll also spend a fair amount on spraying finish, especially with the Earlex sprayer, a budget friendly HVLP sprayer that a lot of woodworkers are turning to these days.
The demo is free, informal and designed to work around your questions. We now offer the demos on Friday evenings in addition to Saturday during business hours. The demo lasts 1.5 to 2 hours.
Here's the schedule, come to any time slot that works for you:
WhereWhen

TEMPE - Woodworkers Source
645 W. Elliot Rd.
Tempe, AZ 85284Friday Nov. 30, 5:30 PM
Saturday Dec 1, 9:00 am, 11:00 am, and 2:00 PM

 

PHOENIX - Woodworkers Source
18115 N. Black Canyon Hwy
Phx, AZ 85023 Friday Dec 7, 5:30 PM
Saturday Dec 8, 9:00 am, 11:00 am, and 2:00 PM

 

TUCSON - Woodworkers Source
3441 S. Palo Verde
Tucson AZ 85713
Friday Dec 14, 5:30 PM
Saturday Dec 15, 9:00 am,11:00 am, and 2:00 PM

[Brian Aday]

One thing this thread is telling us is that we are on the right track! If you have a tool you can donate or put on LTL tell us now.

Critical tools identified so far: Add to the list if I missed your post!

Band saw

Basic dust collection
Benchtop Miter saw

Highly portable Table saw
Benchtop Scroll saw
Benchtop Sander
Benchtop Planer
Jointer

Benchtop Planer

Circular saw and saw guides

Sturdy Sawhorses

[Michael Mathers]

I have a benchtop planer and benchtop combination belt/disc sander I'm willing to LTL.

Planer:  http://www.dewalt.com/tools/machinery-portable-thickness-planers-dw735.aspx
Sander: http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/4-inch-x-36-inch-belt-6-inch-disc-sander-97181.html

[Paul Hickey]

I bought this crappy little table router for fun at a yard sale but would love to donate it to the lab

Paul Hickey
Sent from my mobile device

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[John Norman]

One thing you might want to  use a table saw for is cutting down large sheets of acrylic and other laserable materials  You can use a table saw (especially with some plywood table extensions) to rip down large panels of just about anything.

Another alternative for feeding your laser would be a panel saw, like the have in hardware stores.

Arclight

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:34:38 PM UTC-8, Will Bradley wrote:

Indeed. Counter point, wood is a great prototyping and construction material; plywood on the laser is quite popular and inexpensive. I think we need at least one relatively-safe wood saw ready-to-go in order to have a well-functioning lab, if only to rough in large pieces of stock.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Ben Humpherys <moog...@gmail.com> wrote:

In my opinion, the trouble with the wood shop is that we haven't got someone or somewhere to be exposed to all the possibilities that exist with woodworking. And I don't think we have sufficient 'serious' woodworking tools to be able to attract someone who is really into woodworking who could show us the potential. And without some passionate woodworkers, it would be difficult to justify the expense of something like a shopsmith, or more specialized woodworking tools like a wood lathe or planer. But if all we have is the basic tools that any amateur woodworker would have, what would the incentive be to use the ones at hsl?

Our current stock of woodworking tools is probably insufficient to attract the sort of passionate people who would take charge and turn the wood shop into something great. With space being at a premium, its not really possible to make the needed investment into woodworking.

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[David Lesser]

To me, it seems that the primary goal of a hackerspace (with regard to woodworking) is to provide tools that individual members are unlikely to own.  Now, many of you may have a beater table saw at home suitable for ripping 2x4s and the like for construction projects- and if that's all HSLs tools are used for, then you've got every reason to believe the space could be used better. But a good, well tuned table saw may cost $1000+, will be accurate to within a few thousandths of an inch, and leave a cut surface smooth as glass.  I doubt many of you have something like that.

Of course, demand is still the major issue. If few people at HSL are interested in fine woodworking, then even the finest of tools will still be a waste. And that's ok- everyone's got limited resources, so it would be foolish to blow thousands of dollars on tools no one would use, simply because some jerk from tucson told you to. =D

David

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

omg. tool prices have certainly gone up since I bought mine 20 years ago.

I gave them all away to my nephew when I came here.

--
 
 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I think there is a strange age gap happening here.  You guys keep implying that a woodshop is something that most people have in their house.

This isn't true of my generation.  I know literally nobody with a woodshop in their house who is under the age of 40.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:15 PM, David Lesser <davidhen...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[Jasper Nance]

FTFY

 

>I think there is a strange age gap happening here. I know literally nobody who is under the age of 40.

[Jerry Davis]

and I can readily believe it, with the prices for tools that I have seen today.

I would venture to say, that unless you bought good tools about 15+ years ago, that there would be NO tools at anyone's houses.

where did you find a tablesaw for ONLY $1000+, everything I see is $3500.00 and up?

--
 
 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

What saws are you looking at?  I'm seeing ~$2500

--
 
 

[David Lesser]

Obviously there's a huge difference in price depending on what you're looking at.  I got a surprisingly functional (for fine woodworking) no-name table saw (with large extension tables and beisemeyer fence) from craigslist for ~$150, plus ~$75 for a good new blade, and a lot of elbow grease.  Moving up in quality, you can check out this CL posting ( http://tucson.craigslist.org/tls/3400772672.html ), for a very nice looking US-made Powermatic saw for $1200.  A new Sawstop will run ~$1600-$2500, and I hear they're quite good quality, along with the nice safety feature.

My point was that if all you've ever used is a $75 (new!) harbor freight saw, then you might misunderstand what a difference the extra quality makes.  And if that's the sort of thing you've got lying around, then I think the best plan of action is to either upgrade to proper tools, or discard them and focus your resources elsewhere.

David

--
 
 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

By the way, if we're being serious about buying serious woodworking tools, one of us should make a field trip to Ultimate Consignment in downtown phoenix.

They have a HUGE amount of tools, and heatsync gets a discount for anything we're buying for the lab.

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

well before we do that, we would need more power and space.

i will defer this discussion to the new committee.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

What does that mean?  "Committee"?

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

sorry. a team.

this thread "[HSL] Forming a team to Champion the wood shop - Call for
volunteers"

[Ryan Mcdermott]

What are you "deferring" to, though?  Isn't the "team" or whatever...just...this thread?

I'm bringing this up at the next meeting of the dead deer.

--

[Jerry Davis]

i thought there was a team getting together to see what and how to champion.
if not, then chalk it up to a mis information

[Paul Hickey]

There is a team being formed by Brian to look at what it would take to make a decent wood working area for the back.  If they'd like to package it together and make a pitch as a proposal or hell, just do it, I think that'd be appropriate, sometimes discussions on the list are less than organized and helpful especially with everyone putting in their own 2 cents.

--
 
 

--
Paul Hickey