nominees ideas for a safer space

[krikorik]

Hi

I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.

Regards,

Gregorio

 

[Jasper Nance]

What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?

 

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Jasper Nance - KE7PHI
Creative and Scientific Imagery
http://www.nebarnix.com/

[krikorik]

Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for the space.

[Paul Hickey]

I would like to make a series of safety videos with anyone with expertise in any area for the lab.  I'd also like to see if we could implement a basic safety cert stamp for a card or something to verify that a member has been trained and oriented on the usage of certain equipment and also work to develop a system to temporarily revoke rights for use if the station head decides there was a major safety violation with review from the membership at the next meeting.

Keep in mind that all of this is contingent on membership approval, but I think these steps would be a good start to improve safety conditions of the lab and keep people accountable for their actions on equipment.  I understand that accidents happen but we can minimize the risk if people are required to be informed and recognize that use of equipment in the lab is a privilege.

Paul

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Paul Hickey

[Austin Appel]

On 10/8/2012 7:52 AM, Paul Hickey wrote:
> I would like to make a series of safety videos with anyone with
> expertise in any area for the lab.

This is the only safety video one ever needs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwMhepuJMA ...

[Brian Aday]

We have been talking about tool safety video's for a while now. To fill everyone else in, there is a legal liability issue that has prevented this from moving forward. If Austin is elected the problem will be solved, because the board members are covered by an insurance called 'Errors and Omissions'.

In fact there are a lot more video's on the drawing board. Paul and I are both into creating video, for me it is specifically basic how-to video but Paul's skills are way above what I can do. I would like to have a library of not only safety video's, but basic tool use and project videos. These would not replace the gateway classes for the more complicated tools like the laser, lathe. mill, and welders but it would fill in with the tools people don't normally use like the bending brake, plastic welder, and shear. We would make it easy to play the video while in the space so that you would always have a teacher available in the form of a video. 

[Ben Humpherys]

How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?

[Robert Bell]

If the video contains bad information or forgets to include something critical, someone could die or get hurt. If a stupid happens, the producers and people in the video could be legally liable. E&O insurance pays to reattach fingers and keep doors open.  Something like that.

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moog...@gmail.com> wrote:

How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?

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[Robert Bell]

^That's assuming board members are covered by HSL's current policy. 

But what happens in three years if person in video is no longer a board member?

[krikorik]

How did other labs coped with safety and liability issues? Maybe they can share with us their practices.

[Tim G]

I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around, but a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen people look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up to this task?

Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the tools I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative opportunity for whoever makes them. 

Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently have in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a substitute for watching out for your fellow hacker.

Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so I would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have a pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it. 

Tim

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[Chad Stearns]

I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.

The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern ourselves with when and how danger will strike.

In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious practices such as labels, and warnings.

-ChadCS

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I agree with Tim and Chad here.

But I would like to make clear that one of the MAJOR contributing factors to Heatsync's success as a hackerspace (and we are one of the best hackerspaces in the country) is our bottom-up management approach.

Making the lab a safe place isn't the responsibility of the board, it's the responsibility of the responsible people who are responsibly using the facility and its tools.

If you see chemicals being stored in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to remedy this.  If you see somebody using a tool in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to educate them on why.

The understanding that you should be concerned for your own safety is important.  Don't walk up to something and assume that its safe, that is how you get hurt.  Be present in what you're doing, and make SURE that what you're doing is safe.

Anybody who has taken a gun safety course knows that every gun should always be treated as if it is loaded, and everybody who has ever taken a shop safety class knows that every saw should be treated as if it is running until you unplug it from the wall.

If there is anything that we can do to increase the safety of the lab, it is to drive this point home: safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.

-Ryan

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[Jasper Nance]

unfortunately that doesn't hold up to legal scrutiny...

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

Well what are we talking about then?  Making the space safer, or making ourselves safer from litigation?

We accomplish the former by empowering people (which we do.  well.), we accomplish the latter with lawyers.

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[Chad Stearns]

Yeah this is true.

I dont know the extent of our legal obligations, but I recognize that we do have legal obligations.

I think as a general policy, heatsync ought to promise people are safe, so long as they are merely in the space. Its when people want to do something in the space that they need to take responsibility for their own safety, hence a liability waiver.

So... whos responsibility is it to establish these boundaries of safety? Well, heatsync is managed from the bottom up, but this might be one of those things the board should regulate.

-ChadCS

[Nate Caine]

How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered a safety issue.

[Jasper Nance]

OMG yes. There were some people in the space last Friday who were not
at all sober and were scaring me. I was very close to asking them to
leave the space but then they left on their own accord. I just hope
they didn't drive.

On 10/8/12, Nate Caine <nate...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered a
>> safety issue.
>>
>

[Jasper Nance]

by scaring I just mean they were rowdy and slightly rough housing
which in our cramped space is asking for a head wound.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Do you know who it was?

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[Ben Humpherys]

Safety is something probably better handled in the bottom up fashion. I really think some signs thoughtfully and concisely pointing out best practices for tool use and general behavior would go a long way. People will feel more empowered to act if they better understand how things are supposed to work, and whose responsibility it is to make it happen (that is, everyone).

For example, a sign on or near each trashcan could spell out "if full, please empty out in the large bin in the back, and pit in a new liner, which can be found on the shelves in the back ". Then everyone knows and is reminded each time they throw things away exactly what to do, instead of defaulting to normal assumptions like "the janitor will get it".

[Brian Aday]

To Ben - It is my understanding all board members are covered for "errors and omissions" by Heatsync.

I have thought through the "What happens in coming years" and we are going to need a legal opinion on that. It is my hope that the board will be allowed to transfer ownership of the videos to the new board with a disclaimer stating HeatSync's board takes ownership of the video and is responsible for it's contents.  

Yes, safety is everyone's responsibility. But the reality is they won't sue everybody, they will sue the board members. The board is legally liable which is why we are paying for 'Errors and Omissions' coverage. I would hate to see HeatSync shut its doors because we were sued into non-existence. Cell Cubby already threatened it, and if you followed that thread last year he probably had a case. We can take a risk our board will be spending their time in court or we can cover our bases and spend our time growing the space. 

I also don't want anyone to get hurt in the space because we are afraid of stifling creativity. We can have both. Ultimately we all take a risk working with tools at home or at HeatSync, the court recognizes that as 'reasonable precautions'. We should do everything we can to prevent injuries without being oppressive.

For Tim.  Yes, I agree people could use the video's to be less social. But every time someone has to teach someone else basic tool use they are taken away from their own project. Some us enjoy teaching and come into the space to teach, some don't. The videos fill the times no qualified teacher is available. Basic tool use and tool safety are two separate issues. I approached Austin about doing a general safety class for the space, but without errors and omissions he is in a bad place legally. After the election there will be a proposal to expand the insurance to cover whoever ends up doing safety. 

A note about minors. You can't legally enforce a liability waiver on a minor. If the rumors are true we had a 16 year old sign a waiver, and we have had 15 year old's welding in flip flops without adult supervision. I don't want to see anyone's child hurt, and I don't think anyone else does either. Our current process is allowing this kind of thing to happen.  

I am really not sure how other hackerspaces are doing it, this is new ground for me. I attended a legal seminar on forming Hackerspaces at Defcon one year and there were a list of suggestions. It went something like:

1) Don't pay your board members, it increases their liability.

2) Get legally binding injury waivers that will stand up in court.

3) Develop a safety plan, and follow it. Talk safety often.

4) Insurance is your last line of defense. If someone loses a hand and it is shown to be negligence, the board is personally liable.

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moog...@gmail.com> wrote:

How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?

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[Jerry Davis]

When my wife came in on the first monday to attend the crocheting group some drunk guy with no shirt on bothered her.

I think he was dispached by either rrix or jacob. Not sure as I was busy at the soldering station.

Jerry

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

Guys, c'mon...training videos?  Are we being serious?  Those aren't our values...if somebody wants to see how to safely use a tool, the "heatsync way" would be taking a few minutes to personally show them how to use it properly.

How many of you had had to watch training videos at work?  Was it...like...almost torture?  I don't want to put any new member through watching a bunch of videos orientation videos, and if that means that I have to personally hold their hand through learning to use a tool, I will, and I'm sure the rest of the core members here, the people who are at the lab every day, and the people who have personally taught ME how to use the tools, will too.

"Make a bunch of training videos" feels a whole lot like "make it so I don't have to talk to people" to me, and that is so much the opposite of what heatsync is about.

Would these things be a cool piece of put on our youtube account?  Yeah, probably, putting new information into the internet is good, but when we're talking about ownership transition procedures and soforth for the Heatsync Orientation materials?

C'mon...

Okay, and some directness:

Brian, the ONLY THING that is going to prevent 16 year olds from welding in flip flops is making sure that everybody in the space knows that YOU DON'T FRAKING WELD IN FLIP FLOPS!  And if ANYBODY sees ANYBODY ELSE doing that, they have the power to step in and tell them to stop.

This conversation feels like it's really headed in a gross direction.  We don't need to have lots of waivers and orientation and checklists and stamp cards and paperwork, we need to have lots of people Building Cool Shit (tm), and we need to have them doing it safely.  Doing it safely means empowering people full stop.

Waivers don't keep people safe, they keep us safe from litigation.  That wasn't the original question, and is a different matter entirely.

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[Brian Aday]

Ryan, you are assuming everyone learns like you do (they don't). I use video as my primary method of gaining new knowledge. You are also misunderstanding the purpose of video, they aren't for orientation. My suggestion is we use them for basic tool use. The videos are a long standing request from a couple of our members who didn't grow up using tools like you and I did. They approached me with the idea because they were reluctant to ask for help and impose on someone else's project time. Basically they were looking for some way to learn while being polite, I couldn't fault them for that.

Okay, I am going to let the cat out of the bag. I was there for the flip flop incident. I approached the kid, told him to stop and he played it off as a joke and continued. His father wasn't in the space, the person who was supposed to be supervising him wasn't supervising him. He finished up while I was trying to find his sponsor. Before I noticed the safety violation I watched three or four people walk past him without saying a word. You are comfortable with confrontation, most people aren't. Are you going to lay hands on someone else's kid to stop them? I would prefer no member be put in that position. True, ultimately each member has a responsibility to keep themselves safe, but when accidents happens liability becomes a legal matter. We can follow common practice or bury our heads in the sand. 

I have had my say, I defer to the will of the community. :)

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[Paul Hickey]

Training videos are great for refreshers and would be supplementary.  They would in no way take the place of real, in person training.  I know that after a while I forget some safety rules and proper usage points and don't think that it is against the spirit of the space in anyway.

I make training videos, workshop videos and the like for my job and I get hundreds of views depending on the topic and video.  The people who don't use the videos always talk about how no one watches them.  That's fine for you, but there are others who welcome a quick refresher before using equipment without bothering anyone.

I also thought that this was a place for the nominees to talk about what they are willing to do, not to tear another nominee's ideas apart and say that my ideas suck.

Lets hear about what YOU are willing to do.  I told you what I wanted to do.

Paul

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Paul Hickey

[Robert Bell]

A training video that doesn't end with comical gore, trains no one.

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Will Bradley]

Making a general safety video, or teaching a general safety class, should be the least of anyone's legal concerns around here.

Austin has taught dozens of people how to weld, Jasper has taught dozens of people to machine, and Nate has taught dozens of people to laser, with no insurance and sometimes (DESPITE the policy on waivers I communicate to all instructors) without liability waivers. I've never heard a single request for additional protection and would advocate for this protection if it was requested.

Claiming that now those same people need to be board members in order to protect themselves against the hazards of giving out general safety advice is an interesting position to take.

If our instructors, volunteers, and members need legal protection or insurance, then let's talk about getting them that protection. Our board insurance is not intended to protect against operational stuff like this; it's just a relatively inexpensive last line of defense.

Putting everyone who gives safety instructions on the board would actually expose the organization to more liability (board members themselves giving instructions instead of volunteers don't have plausible excuses) and it would be against our mission of members teaching each other.

If Austin isn't willing to teach without being a board member, then I bet any number of people in our community will be happy to fill in, myself included, board member or not.

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

Paul, that wasn't directed at you.  Videos would be great, like I said, but training videos don't keep 16 year olds from welding in flip flops.  If they aren't going to be responsible enough to not use a tool they clearly don't know how to use, I highly doubt that they'd hesitate to use the same tool until they watched a video on it.

That's kids being kids, and that is exactly the type of thing that individual members need to understand that they have the obligation, as community members, since we are, after all, a community, not a tool rental agency, to stop.

Brian, are you telling me that you saw a 16 year old kid in the lab welding in flip flops and didn't, like, physically stop him from doing so?  Unplug the machine if you need to.  You don't need to lay hands on somebody to do that.

Beyond that, you're right, not everybody learns how to use tools in the same way.  Here's something definitive I'll say on the matter: I don't want anybody to be using a dangerous tool if all they've had for training on it was a video.  No matter what, for things like the lathes, the welder, the mills, and the woodworking tools, there absolutely must be a hands-on lesson on how to stay safe while using them.  Sure "hands off" stuff could be supplemental, and that is why I think it would be awesome if we all stepped up and made some of this stuff, but it is in absolutely no way a substitute for what we have been successful for the last several years doing: hands on training with people who know how to use something.

>the person who was supposed to be supervising him wasn't supervising him. 

That person is YOU and every other person in our community since we are, again, a community, not a tool rental service.  Would you have felt obligated to keep this kid from hurting himself if you had been a board member?

This is where I think this conversation is getting heavily disjointed from heatsync's core values.  There is nobody there to play Mom and Dad.  Everybody is on the same level, and just like everybody has the same level of obligation to take out the trash, turn off the lights, lock the door, and sweep the floors, everybody has the same level of [practical] responsibility to keep each other safe.

We aren't techshop, and I think most of the people who participate in the lab are glad for that.  If anybody is looking for a place that functions as a service, where the person responsible is always "not me" I suggest checking them out, they're coming to the valley soon.

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[Will Bradley]

To answer the original question, we don't have a lot of chemical needs at the moment but we do have some fire and general safety needs.

On my to-do list for awhile has been a proper flammables cabinet, increased and updated signage in the space reminding people of hazards, and programs like the in-person general safety class Austin has mentioned teaching. Many of our members have been around long enough they haven't gotten any training lately, and we have lots of strangers each week (which is great and in fulfilling our mission!) Increased signage in the space will tell anyone at a moment's glance what is dangerous and where their hands should be.

I like the video idea but it isn't my primary concern at this time; in my experience, digital resources are not the first thing people reach for when they're in the facility; yellow and black stuff at eye level is much more effective.

I also plan to constantly improve the new member training I give, and educate other core members on properly giving this training. It's a vital part of both safety and smooth grassroots operation of the space, so continual improvement is very important.

[Ingrid Avendaño]

I think you guys should strongly consider TL;DR for long posts. It is just a friendly suggestion/request for someone that gets a million emails a day, but is still interested in what is going on. 

[Ryan Rix]

I'm glad our membership thinks that the new board nominees are the people who
need to come up with these ideas. I know that sounds snarky, but why isn't the
community at large instituting these things without board intervention?

It should be the community discussing this as a community, not a bunch of
board nominees 'laying out their platform'. Your platform should be "i'm going
to empower this community to make the space safer"

My platform as a community member for this election year is to make this space
the space I want it to be, and that should be the platform for EVERY member of
this community.

Needless to say I'm slightly ... concerned about how a lof of these
discussions are being framed.

r.

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Ryan Rix
http://rix.si

[Paul Hickey]

But the thread is called: nominees ideas for a safer space...

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Paul Hickey

[Ryan Rix]

Right, that's what I'm saying. The thread should be "how can we as a community
make the space safer?"

> --

[Brian Aday]

But Will, a lot of the risk people have accepted was done without knowledge of their legal exposure. I just happen to understand, and don't want to lose my house, so I feel it is my responsibility to at least introduce them to the idea. Perhaps you can explain why HeatSync's Attorney suggested you and the other board members have 'Errors and Omissions' and the Attorney's rationale that the people teaching classes are not liable. From where I sit, HeatSync is handling the fees for classes and paying the instructor. So the instructors are legal subcontractors and as such are very likely fully liable.  As you probably know insurance is the last line of defense when liability waivers are ruled invalid in court because they aren't properly phrased and/or maintained. You talked to the thee about liability waivers, did you discuss with them whether they did or did not need 'Errors and Omissions'? 

To clarify, Austin and Jasper are baring most of the risk here, the laser has a lot lower potential for taking someones hand off so Nate is less exposed. 

It isn't the reason I am running for the board, it simply solves a problem and opens a door to one of the improvements that has been suggested to me. I was asked what I would do if elected, and I responded. I am running because I think I can do a good job for the membership and get things done in a timely manner. 

Ryan - At the time I wasn't certified on using the welder and didn't know how to disable it. I DID something, I worked within the options I had at the time. As much as you and I would prefer it to be otherwise, people will often turn a blind eye to a safety violation if pointing out will cause a conflict. A lot of people see this as the boards responsibility and the law certainly does. We have to work with the way people ARE not how we would like them to be.

[Will Bradley]

The attorney hasn't judged that instructors aren't liable for the results of their instruction; each individual is responsible for their own actions. That's the ethic we've founded HeatSync on and what we teach each new member. Up until now (and even now) we don't have a lot of assets someone could sue out of us, and we have even fewer assets to pay for insurance. HeatSync's annual income is less than my annual income and in the words of our lawyer, only a heartless bastard would sue a nonprofit.

I just checked, and our Director's & Officer's insurance explicitly does not cover bodily injury, property damage, dishonest or fraudulent acts, or claims relating to toxic materials. It costs ~$600/yr and is simply there to deal with general claims that might pass through the Board and on to a member; it's a basic level of insurance so that you can run for Board without immediately incurring unacceptable levels of risk.

We also have an Accident insurance policy which costs ~$300/yr and covers some accidental medical/death expenses for 7 volunteers and/or 24 participants/clients. So it seems our instructors are somewhat covered from bodily injury claims as part of this.

As third party contractors, I believe that instructors are more exposed to liability but HeatSync is less exposed. Third-party contractors are responsible for themselves. By being on the board, I'd imagine it would be difficult to separate liability as a board member from liability as an instructor. So it's safer to the organization if instructors are contractors and not directors or employees.

I'm in favor of increasing our insurance and evaluating volunteer liability, but I don't think we have the budget for it and this is the first anyone's brought it up in years. Perhaps we could divert a portion of the class fees to insurance? But insurance doesn't reduce liability, it's just a savings account for risk. It doesn't make sense to buy it if you're not likely to need it. Personally, I'm comfortable with our current insurance situation but I welcome a debate about increasing our Accident insurance coverage or restructuring classes/volunteers.

TL;DR: 

I'm for improving our insurance coverage and protecting our volunteers from liability, but voting an instructor onto the board would actually increase HeatSync's liability while doing almost nothing to decrease an instructor's risk. The two insurance plans are separate and different.

Also, it runs against the hackerspace mission and philosophy of everyday people teaching each other. I'd rather dissolve the board and move to someone's garage than elect volunteers to the board; we're not a university, we're a community. The only reason we have a board is to maintain our 501(c)3 status, not to run a corporate hackerspace. If that's what you want, TechShop will be here any day now.

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[Will Bradley]

Who knows the name or date/time of the incident regarding a child welding with flip flops? Please email wi...@heatsynclabs.org to report this because it is serious and only brought to my attention in this email thread.