[Discussion] - Create a fund to fix out power

[Ryan Mcdermott]

This isn't a proposal, I'd just like peoples' opinion on it.

Last night we granted ~$1500 from our general fund to buy a bunch of wood working tools.  This money is in addition to ~$2000 of additional funding ($1000 pledged, $1000 donated by a member's employer as part of a donation matching program), that is being earmarked for building a woodworking shop at our lab.

(So if you're keeping track, ~$3500 worth of woodworking tools, ~$1500 of which are being funded by heatsync.  Which is pretty cool, although I still haven't seen a definitive answer on where all these tools will be put.)

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I think that this purchase was irresponsible of us  (Also the proposal won 5/4 with 6 people abstaining, which is concerning to me, since a very small group of people just spent large amount of our limited budget). 

Our power has been an issue for us since we moved to 140 west main, and will continue to be one until we move or cease to exist.  Personally, I don't want to move, I think our space is great, and I haven't seen anybody else standing up to make a move happen, so the safe assumption is that we'll be at our current location for at least another year and a half.

I'd like to talk about passing a policy that says we don't spend more than $foo (I'm not saying spend /nothing/, just don't spend huge amounts like we did last night) on any tool purchases until we have fixed our power.  I believe the last quote that I heard discussed was ~$5500.

Summary:

I believe that we have acted irresponsibly with our budget, and would like to discuss passing a policy that prevents us from doing so again until we have taken care of maintenance issues, specifically fixing our power.

-Ryan

[Jerry Davis]

regardless of your very vocal opinion - and it IS that. Just your opinion.

when we spend that 5500.00 will we be reimbursed from the landlord, or
are doing the landlord a REALLY big favor by fixing it for them? So
that when and if a move is made, we have just thrown/{insert your
stronger word here} it all away?

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[Will Bradley]

I like this discussion but I'd rather move it in the direction of how to raise funds to fix our power and what our options are regarding leases/buildings.

Part of the controversy of the wood and metal shops is space. As long as we continue growing our membership, these issues won't just disappear. However, increasing our space hasn't seemed possible yet.

It's clear we'll need to do something: what spaces could we reasonably use, what money could we reasonably spend on electricity? Keep in mind new spaces typically require a lot of time/energy/money as well...

I know I'd put money towards electrical improvements... or a new space if a good one presented itself... where do everyone else's priorities lie?

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[Luis Montes]

We get to take the tools with us. If we put money into power and decide we need a bigger space, we've wasted the money.

I'd personally like to see the  money go towards a bigger place in downtown mesa that doesn't have the power problems.

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

-Ryan

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[Uberschnitzel]

I had a sit down with Mary(our landlord) a day before I headed out for my trip.  She's voiced that she likes us as tenants and would like to keep us if we'd like to extend.  

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[Mike Bushroe]

I support the interest in paying for a major upgrade in power. It certainly would help many people in the lab, being able to run more tools, more tools at once, and expand the range of tools we can even consider, like a stick welder or possibly a 3 phase mill or lathe if we go that far.

  I would also HOPE that we can work something out with the landlord. As a landlord myself, I understand the desire not to have a whole, let alone several months rent suddenly disappear from my budget. That would feel exactly the same as paying out of pocket to do the work myself. However, a gradual recouping of our investment, over say the next year or two, would me MUCH easier for a landlord to swallow. And, if we do that much rework, accept for the small floor space, it means we will have more of what we want where we already are which is in a nice location and neighborhood.

just my 2 cents worth

Mike

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Jeremy, has the power question been brought up to her before?  What was her input?

I think the problem with trying to recoup power-upgrade costs from our landlord is that we're a pretty far edge-case for what that space will ever be used for.  The things we want to do are "upgrades" to us, but they're beyond what is required for her to rent the space in the future.

What does a clothing store need 240v power for?

A machine shop isn't something that typically ends up no a main road in downtown Mesa.

From her standpoint, I imagine, a $5500 investment in power upgrades is a bad one.

I believe that this would be the same everywhere we go unless we move to an industrial district, which I think a lot of us don't want (I love being on a main street, I love having stuff like DE, Lo Fi, and the few restaurants we have nearby, etc.).

I'd love to hear that our landlady wants to help us upgrade to our power needs, but realistically I can  understand if she doesn't see that as a good investment.

-Ryan

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[Uberschnitzel]

Sorry.  There was more to that email.  Was typing on my phone and hit send pre-emptively:

She put out an option of extending the contract for another 2 years with the same wording as the current lease.

I brought up three additional option suggestions to her.  Two of which could  have the electrical costs packaged into the extension in a way.  She actually was interested and we're re-exploring the costs associated with our electrical needs.  

Just wanted to say that we're looking at options that could allow us to stay at the current location to compare to any possible options for moving to a new location.

More details when I can revisit this with her right after the new year.

[Nate Caine]

What has the landlord done to earn our business?

 

From the various electrical repairs that we made during move in and over the last year, it appears that they have spent nothing on this building since the 1960s.  The existing electrical is sub-standard in many ways.  There is no hot water or real sink.  The upstairs floorspace is essentially unusable.  The is considerable contention within the lab a groups vie for limited space.

 

Ryan's $5,500 price is the middle of the pack.  We have never gotten a hard quote, but some "ball park" figures were easily double or quadruple that number.

 

I think Luis has it about right:  Downtown Mesa has a bit to offer, but mainly to us as members (i.e. coffee and food), not as an attracting storefront.   

(I've pointed out how few of our members found us by just happening by.  Most find us by an online search or referral from friends or school.)

 

If we find a suitable location nearby, with comparable (or larger) floorspace, and with decent power and water amenities, we should move.

 

 

 

 

[JR]

I've linked to this a few times when the space subject has come up:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bfd/3506282556.html

However, while I've looked at google maps before and thought I knew where this was, I drove around last Sunday and found it. 
It was where I thought it was- 2 blocks south of Tempe Marketplace on Smith drive 5th street and Smith.

So it's not across the street from Tempe Marketplace, but it's close.

It has 3 phase power.
It's dividable, so  you could rent part of it and possibly grow in the future (assuming the next piece didn't get filled)
It's dividable, so we could have clean, metal, and wood shops that are all separate.
It's more central than our current location.
It has plenty of parking.
It has 10' doors so we could bring big projects in.
I think it's price is comparable/maybe lower than what we're paying now.

What I don't know is if its zoning would be compatible with our needs.  If it is, we might seriously consider it instead of upgrading the power.

[krikorik]

JR

I like very much your proposal and I'll support it. Current space is not suitable for the group, and we are making bad decisions based on it (spend lots of money on non prime woodwork machines due to space constrains). I'd not support trowing up money on an electrical upgrade

Gregorio

[Will Bradley]

I'd double-check the details on that space, JR. In my research of Tempe last time, there are tons of warehouses and tons of industrial space. The key thing here is building codes. A building built to be a warehouse is not suitable for anything more than storage and packaging of stuff. The city will get very mad at you if you try to pack 50 people in there for a few hours of industrial work.

These spaces are typically not air conditioned, either. At best they're swamp cooled. Their interior division is usually really weird, too, so you're looking at building/electrical permits and construction costs to make something appropriately cohesive/divided.

I support all research, just lending advice that doomed my previous push to move to Tempe. There's a ton of industrial parks in Tempe and almost all of them have something sucky about them.

[JR]

I can make a few follow-up calls and investigate further.  Part of what I liked about this is that there's office space in part(s) of it, so there's at least some expectation for higher occupancy.

One thing I forgot in my last mail - it's 6 blocks north of a light rail stop.  Not necessarily the nicest 6 blocks, but at 2am I don't think there's much light rail scheduled anyway.

I tried digging back through the last discussion to find our preferred zoning - B2?   but didn't find that post.  Anyone have that info handy?

[Will Bradley]

Pretty sure each city has its own zoning and building codes; at least, we managed to find this place in Mesa because of Mesa's unique situation.

When I was investigating Tempe, I was looking for Industrial zoning and Flex building code (at least in LoopNet's way of listing things.) The word warehouse is a no-no.

We could attempt to fit into some kind of commercial or light industrial zoning, but this is either really expensive or really hard to find, at least in Tempe.

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[Mike Bushroe]

The property in the craigs list entry above is in GID, General Industrial zoning. I doubt that there would any problem with Heatsync in a gid zoning. Here are some types of permitted GID land uses:

Computer Centers, including Computer Hotels and Similar Technology Facilities

Electronic Instruments and Devices, Computers, Assembling and Manufacturing

Industrial, Scientific, Bio-Technology or Business Research, Development and
Testing Laboratories, and Offices

Machine shops

Manufacturing, not causing noxious odors, fumes, noise, dust or vibration

Offices


WITH ADDITIONAL USAGE PERMITS:

Amateur Radio Antennas [Section 3-422]
35 feet in height or less

Commercial Uses – and all other uses under Table 3-202A “Permitted land Uses”,
unless otherwise specified in this table (except outdoor display)

Foundry Casting Light-Weight, Nonferrous Metal, not Causing Noxious Odors or
Fumes

Wireless Telecommunication Facilities [Section 3-421]

[Mike Bushroe]

on the other hand, the craigslist entry does not mention AC or swamp cooling. No way to tell without further investigation what if any cooling the bulk of the area has.

Mike

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I just met a guy while climbing who is on the Tempe city council.  He has been to our lab, loves it, and wanted to know why the hell we aren't in Tempe?

I told him the topic of moving was currently being discussed, and he said to please email him.

I'll be following up with him tomorrow.

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Mike Bushroe <mbus...@gmail.com> wrote:

on the other hand, the craigslist entry does not mention AC or swamp cooling. No way to tell without further investigation what if any cooling the bulk of the area has.

Mike

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[Will Bradley]

Zoning is not an issue; building codes is what you need to pay attention to.

We aren't in Tempe because they basically didn't have anything for us outside of giant faceless swamp cooled industrial complexes, despite my and Zach's best efforts :p

On Dec 29, 2012 5:40 AM, "Mike Bushroe" <mbus...@gmail.com> wrote:

on the other hand, the craigslist entry does not mention AC or swamp cooling. No way to tell without further investigation what if any cooling the bulk of the area has.

Mike

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[JR]

I called the contact in the Craigslist ad and he had just rented out the 3000 ft^2 space, leaving just small spaces that weren't adjacent to each other.  So this option appears to be off the table.  

In other news, there's a 3 phase main panel on CL right now for $200.  We might be able to knock a significant bit off the electrical upgrade of our current location with some careful digging.

[Will Bradley]

FYI regarding 3-phase; I asked Tim and Austin for feedback in case it was something we wanted to grab up but it seems we may not need it?

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Tim M <t...@netblues.org> wrote:

None of our current systems will work with 3 phase. We would need to buy new motors for the mill/cnc/lathe/ and a new psu for the laser.

It would be better to upgrade our single phase 220 power. Most of our large tools use it already.

Regards,
Tim Moffat

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From: Will Bradley
Sent: 1/3/2013 11:46 AM
To: Austin K; Tim
Subject: Fwd: Re: [HSL] Re: [Discussion] - Create a fund to fix out power

Austin or Tim, do you know if this 3-phase panel is worth getting?

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[JR]

While it's true that our current equipment doesn't use 3-phase (big mill being a possible exception), having 3 phase power would open up a lot of opportunities on used tools, and would still provide the necessary power for our existing equipment.

And 220 isn't single phase- it's 2 110 phases 180deg out of sync.

[Corey Renner]

While you are correct that 220v is actually using two phases rather than one, you are confusing the issue for no good reason.  220v power like we have in the lab is referred to in industry and in the NEC as single-phase power even if technically, it probably should have been called something else.  Unfortunately the term two-phase power was already being used for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

So, your objection is noted, but we DO have 220v 1-phase power.

cheers,

c

[JR]

The real point wasn't the semantics, it was that 220V equipment can be happily run on a 3 phase system, as can 110V.  So if we got our current location properly upgraded to three phase power, we could :

-Run all of our current equipment
-Pick up used equipment (woodworking in particular) that many people skip because it's 3 phase.  This often means it's cheaper.

[Tim M]

From the engineers I talked to, the lab would need to buy converters or upgrade the motors to three phase for our existing equipment.

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From: JR
Sent: 1/4/2013 9:35 AM
To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [HSL] Re: [Discussion] - Create a fund to fix out power

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[Mike Bushroe]

Tim,
  Depending on how you phrased the question, that answer is either correct or incorrect. To run an existing tool out of a 3 phase "socket", we would need to replace the motor, or convert 3 phase into 1 phase. However, every home and small business is already hooked up to 3 phase power, that is what the overhead power lines do. Then each house gets the difference between only two of the three phases, and to the house it looks just like single phase 220V. So if we ran a 3 phase line to the laser, we would have to convert it. If we ran 3 phase to the shop, added some 3 phase plugs, and ran the rest on difference between any two phases, then we would be using exactly the same kind of power we do now.

A better way to answer would be that most homes and small businesses get 2 legs of a 3 leg (phase) Utility Power Line. Think of the 3 phase as a "Y", with each line running its own independent power compared to a 'virtual' neutral that each one shares. As long as the current flowing through each one is roughly the same, and with each one being 120 degrees out of phase with the other two, then the neutral line has almost no current and does not need a physical wire.

Since there are 3 separate lines, each is 120 degrees out of phase with the other two, and I believe the RMS voltage is 240 when talking all three lines, or any one line compared to the theoretical neutral they share. However, when house power is provided, the difference between the 2 legs or phases, because they are 120 degrees apart, is another sine wave at 220V (smaller than 240 because they are not a full 180 degrees apart). In this case, the wiring is more like an equilateral triangle, with each side being a 220V source to run a house or small business. With local ground between them, this looks to the house wiring a with on one phase, with plus and minus 110V, combined to make 220V.

  If the lab had a 3 phase drop, with 3 phase lines and outlets added for future upgrades, and then separate power panels for each leg-to-leg difference (leg A to B 220V, leg B to C 220V, leg C to A 220V), we would plenty of power to run around to all the current tools so that they could run at the same time if needed. We might need isolation transformers so that the 3 main 220V panels could all share a common ground, but beyond that, all the equipment would never know that we started with 3 phase.

As for picking up a 3 phase panel, I suspect that most of the bids were mostly labor and permits, fees and time spent for inspections. Buying even exactly the right equipment off craigslist would only cut the total by a modest amount. And of course, if we guess wrong and by something the electrical contractor won't use, we have wasted money. Short of designing the whole system first, then finding someone willing to use parts we have bought, I don't think that this will help much with the total cost.

Mike

[Corey Renner]

Yeah,  I'm going to have to go-ahead and sorta disagree with you on some of this, umkay?

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2792451/Goddamn/

When you order 220v 1-phase power it is not two legs of 3-phase power, because as you correctly noted the phases would be 120deg off and the RMS voltage is only 208v.  Instead what you get is two phases 180deg off (as JR noted earlier) which is 220-240v RMS depending.  Now you certainly CAN use two legs of 3-phase to drive most single-phase equipment, but because of the phase-shift it depends.

Either way, it shouldn't matter much.  If 3-phase power was brought in, I would expect it to supplement rather than replace the existing service.  Personally, I think that spending that kind of money to upgrade someone else's building (that we may soon outgrow) is kind of nutty.  VFD's can let us run any 3-phase equipment that we choose to run and at ~$150/ea it's not going to break the bank.  We won't be able to run all the machines simultaneously, but we don't have enough physical space to do that anyway.

cheers,

c

[Ben Humpherys]

1. What are the relative cost/benefits of getting full 3-phase power vs. simply adding beefier 100 and 220 circuits?
2. Single-phase motors are abundant and readily available in the sizes we have been using up till now. Is there any benefit to changing/replacing them with 3-phase?
3. What is the benefit of running 3-phase outlets verses using a phase converter for any equipment that requires it?
4. I get the impression that 3-phase is used primarily for industrial-size equipment. How likely are we to purchase machinery of that caliber?

[JR]

My main issue here it moving the lab forward.  Since at this moment we don't have any truly viable alternatives for relocation, that means upgrading our current location.  Even though we're stretching its space limits, that would be more tolerable if we had good power.  Since we can't make it bigger, I'm focusing on what we can upgrade.

To make a power upgrade happen, the more we can bring to the table in discussions with our landlord the better.  So even if the quote is $10,000 and only $1000 of that is materials (seems low if you've priced copper lately), any amount we can get donated or buy used helps.

We really need to get the landlord involved in this discussion on a serious level. 

[Corey Renner]

1. Our biggest need is more amps into the building, whether those amps are delivered by 3-phase or 1-phase power doesn't matter all that much.  It is likely that there could be a significant cost difference between the two depending on the existing power company infrastructure.  I would take whichever is cheaper, if they were priced the same, I would probably take 3-phase.

2. 3-phase motors run smoother, are significantly more reliable, and with the addition of a VFD support soft-starting, braking, etc.  Whether this is a benefit or not depends upon the actual machine.  I run 3-phase motors on all of my milling machines for the reasons stated above.  My bandsaw is 1-phase, the convenience of plugging it in anywhere vastly outweighs the benefits of 3-phase (to me) on that particular machine.

3. Phase converters suck, they are expensive, heavy, introduce additional power-losses, etc.  Given our current power situation, the only phase conversion equipment that bears consideration are VFD's which conserve power and can usually be fed from either 1 or 3 phase power.  They can only drive 3-phase motors, however.

4. Industrial equipment is almost exclusively 3-phase for the reasons stated in #2 above.  How likely are we to buy equipment that uses 3-phase power?  Pretty likely, since we've already got at least one 3-phase machine running in the lab now.  I've got (4) 3-phase machines in my garage shop, this is not gigantic equipment, my entire shop fits in one bay of my 3-car garage.  My equipment is on-par with the sizes and types of machines used in the HSL machine shop.

cheers,

c

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[Will Bradley]

Jeremy's discussion with the landlord included power, however the landlord is no electrician. There are plans to get an additional quote on electrical at which point she will decide what she's willing to bargain.

If you truly want to communicate with the landlord regarding something, please type it up into a very clear, simple question and send it directly to Jeremy; he's been handling our relationship.

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[JR]

Here's a great example of why three-phase power would be a great thing for our needs:

Here's a three-phase shaper on Craigslist for what appears to be a good price:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3536706551.html

Now here's a comparable shaper that's single phase:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3497608422.html

That's 160% higher for the single phase tool.  Or you could look at this one- it's only 100% higher:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3464770021.html

For anyone looking to outfit a wood shop, either of these should be good machines- there's also a Delta with what looks to be a good collection of cutters.  However, I always recommend checking reviews, especially of newer machines as they have moved factories a lot in recent years and quality has been inconsistent, even across some of the traditionally premium brands.

[Nate Caine]

Again, just to clarify, the problem has never been 220V vs. 110V.    Nor 3-Phase vs. single-Phase.

 

The problem is we don't have enough power.  Period.

 

Currently on the 220V side (single-phase) I think most of you are aware that we have the Laser Cutter sharing the same outlet as the big green lathe and the welder.

 

And we schedule use of the sole outlet via the laser cutter calendar.

 

And that circuit is maxed out.  So it's not a matter of paying someone to add some additional 220V outlets.

 

It's more like paying a LOT of money to have additional 220V service brought in from outside (meter, breaker panel, etc.)

 

It's sad that the building owner hasn't spent a dime on any sort of modern electrical upgrades in the past 50 years.  And now we are stuck paying for them.

 

On the 110V side, things are pretty much maxed out as well.  We've actually had a few breaker fail, likely do to age and over capacity.

 

So there is no simple solution of "let's buy a 110V to 220V 3-phase VFD".  The question would be, "where do you plug it in?"

 

Further, the shear lack of outlets is daunting.

 

Stringing overhead extension cords, and having a series of power strips snaked down the table is a poor solution.

 

 

[Zachary Giles]

I haven't seen it in this thread yet.. but just to add.. 

The City of Mesa added a 208V 3-phase transformer out back and offered to hook us up to it if we can buy the panel and get it installed etc. So, 208v 3-phase power @ ~600Amps is just a matter of funding.

 

 

 

--
 
 

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Nate Caine]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

 

Howeve, the cost of the meter, and panel, much less the inside wiring is in the thousands-of-dollars.

 

Also, no one seems to know why a 208V delta service was requested.  At the time I don't think HeatSync had ANY three-phase equipment at all, much less delta.

[JR]

Nate-

I agree with you. 

But to move forward we need to choose a preferred path, and since there's been some debate about single or three phase I wanted to provide some useful information - both on the subject of power and for anyone looking for good wood tools.

Anyone know if the monsterland space will be available, and if so any details?

[JR]

They wired it Delta? 

Nice way to discourage theft.

[Jacob Rosenthal]

bump

[Jeremy Leung]

As Will mentioned I spoke with Mary before the holidays and just followed up with her the other day.  She wants us to reup, but I did stress that we have electrical concerns.

She wants to know what the specific needs we have are.

I relayed my current understanding is that we need to get rid of the two breaker box situation, and overall get more amperage and more sockets evenly distributed in shop.

She is going to have her electrician investigate and quote us on the work required.  Following that we talked about the below three alternate options:

1.  We rent for a smaller time period.  A year instead of two years.  Allowing us time to find a new location to hop into.  Rent for this year would increase as it has the past two years.

2.  Based on the electrical quote the landlord can decide to cover the costs of an upgrade if we sign on for an additional two years with the increase in rent per year as it is currently fixed.

3.  Based on the electrical quote the landlord can decide to lower the leasing costs for the next two years if we cover the expenses of the upgrades.

She is currently game for the options above.  We're currently waiting to schedule a time for that electrician evaluation and quote.

[Christy Strauch]

Hi Jeremy et al,
From what i can tell,the city of Mesa is Very interested in heat sync staying in downtown. It is possible that there is financial help available from them to address the power issue. I don't work for the City so I cannot speak for them directly, but I have heard a lot of 2nd hand discussion about it. Jeremy has the contact info for the City economic development person, and if you're having any difficulties getting through to him, I can help with that. Please contact me if I can help. Christy Strauch from NEDCO.

[Jerry Davis]

so ... anyone know about the old Monsterland property?

that's downtown.

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 9:02 PM, Christy Strauch <ukele...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jeremy et al,
> From what i can tell,the city of Mesa is Very interested in heat sync staying in downtown. It is possible that there is financial help available from them to address the power issue. I don't work for the City so I cannot speak for them directly, but I have heard a lot of 2nd hand discussion about it. Jeremy has the contact info for the City economic development person, and if you're having any difficulties getting through to him, I can help with that. Please contact me if I can help. Christy Strauch from NEDCO.
>

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Recursion: (noun):
see: Recursion

[Jasper Nance]

Didn't they find an investor afterall?

----------------------------------------------
Jasper Nance - KE7PHI
Creative and Scientific Imagery
http://www.nebarnix.com/

[JR]

Discussion at the group build just over a week ago was that the employees were trying to buy it and there was another possibility.  It was said that they were going to close but leave everything as is for a few months while they tried to find a buyer.  So there's some 4th hand info there for you.

Before the group build I went and stepped off the rough dimensions of Monsterland and estimate it would be 7000+ft^2, assuming only single story.  Realistically that's more than we need at the moment and pretty certainly outside our budget.

[Harry Meier]

Christy,

Jeremy et al can correct me if I'm wrong since I've just been a middle man in the City talks, but the problems we ran into last time with the City's help was that they were pretty hand tied when it came to substantial direct help. We're on a private property and we're not a govt agency, so all the city can do is give us breaks on installation/utility fees, build-out infrastructure up to the property line, and generally assist with permits. They have done all of these things including installing a big ol 3-phase transformer right outside our current back door. Any direct assistance would have to come in the form of grant applications. 

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christy Strauch <ukele...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jeremy et al,
From what i can tell,the city of Mesa is Very interested in heat sync staying in downtown. It is possible that there is financial help available from them to address the power issue.  I don't work for the City so I cannot speak for them directly, but I have heard a lot of 2nd hand discussion about it. Jeremy has the contact info for the City economic development person, and if you're having any difficulties getting through to him, I can help with that. Please contact me if I can help. Christy Strauch from NEDCO.

[Christy Strauch]

That might still be true (re hands tied etc.) but there is intense focus on downtown businesses not moving away, so I think it's worth going back and asking again.

[Christy Strauch]

Forgot to add that I will help however I can in talking to the City.

[Nate Caine]

Whatever it takes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6si8Xp8P-M

 

 

[JR]

LOL. 

Nice Nate.