Things that seemed very important during elections

[Jacob Rosenthal]

We've got a few weeks before HYH so we've got time to make proposals and argue how to make the space better.

The following is a list of issues that were raised a few weeks ago. Pick yours or your favorite, and discuss or act on it:

We need a list of stuff to be done for PRIOR to HYH-IVE GOT THIS ONE!

Should $25 members vote?

Should the vote process formalized?

Should you still be a dues paying member to run for board?

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

Is it a goal to get more signage?

Should our bylaws be more 'serious'?

Should we change the bylaws Item 6 about guest tooluse?

Should bylaws allow board to appoint members?

What 'safety' in general are we lacking?

Do we need safety certs/cards?

How and when should we revoke access for violations?

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

What about drunks at the space?

Can Austin not teach because of insurance???

MAOR INSURANCE?

Do we need sponsors? Who is going to go them?

Do we need more outreach and education? Whos in?

Do we need a new space? Who is looking? For what?

Is our electrical situation untenable?

Should board meeting frequency change?

Is hack your hackerspace messy? Define messy. Define clean.

Who wants to make documentation/video documentation?

Who wants to use the front windows more effectively. Define effectively.

Who will reboot augmented humanity (or run another event)?

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

Do we need more board members? How many?

Can there be co-board members? Do we need to square the bylaws?

Should 2 treasurers be mandatory?

Should HYH proposals be stronger WITH discussion BEFORE vote? How?

Should there be changes to card access voting? Specifically anonymous voting be brought back to vote again?

Who will explode volunteerism by ORGANIZING?

Is one of the wood benches 'broken'?

Are Brian's tables not where they are supposed to be?

Should we change the 'board roles' pages to better represent board roles and actions? Are they 'spiritual leaders?'

The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

There needs to be a new website.

[Brian Aday]

What do you mean by "Last chance to take action" on the microphones. My school workload and job have me pegged at 100% right now, so disabling the microphones on the camera is going to have to wait. If someone else is interested in doing it sooner by all means go ahead. It will probably be a couple weeks before I have anymore free time for the task. Will and I have both tried several methods to disable them, and so far nothing has worked. My next experiment would involve disassembly and placing a dab of hot glue on the microphone.   

I can explain how you can fix the insert that has the broken corner if you like. You will need access to a router. 

IMO, too much to respond to all at once. If you want to break these down and talk about them one at a time when the board traffic is slow I believe you will get better input. 

BTW, kudo's on the website work you have done. The new design is sweet! 

--
 
 

[Ben Humpherys]

Should $25 members vote?

Sure. $25 a month is enough commitment to earn a vote, I think.

Should the vote process formalized?

Eh, why? I don't think there's a real need.

Should you still be a dues paying member to run for board?

Yea. I think paying dues is a fair way to demonstrate commitment.

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

No. The problem is, you would then have to define who is a "valued member" and then, therefore, who is not. That's a division and distinction that would be harmful.

Is it a goal to get more signage?

Sure. It might be more likely to happen if people better understand what exactly it will take to make it happen.

Should our bylaws be more 'serious'?

We probably should, but I don't think it needs to be a very high priority.

Should we change the bylaws Item 6 about guest tooluse?

We don't abide by it, so yea, that should be changed to reflect how we actually do things.

Should bylaws allow board to appoint members?

I would just tweak it to allow them to appoint someone to serve for a limited period of a month or two before a special election is held to fill the position until the next general election

What 'safety' in general are we lacking?

Austin has setup a safety meeting this thursday. That's the best place to bring safety concerns forward right now.

Do we need safety certs/cards?

Certification is certainly important for certain large tools, eg. laser, CNC, etc. Cards will be a good idea, especially as we expand, to better help us keep track of who has been certified on what.

How and when should we revoke access for violations?

A formal process would be a good idea. Perhaps posting next to each machine specific infractions that are grounds for revoking access privileges to a machine. Perhaps give a couple people like station managers and operations people the power to place a temporary ban on someone using a machine (3 days?) and more serious issues taken to vote.

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

It would be a darn good idea.

What about drunks at the space?

I don't believe alcohol in general has much place in the space. It does not mix well with power tools, and drunks detract from peoples ability to feel safe, let alone work on their projects. I do think a mini-fridge with a sign "adult beverages" in the same room as all the power tools is a bad idea.

Can Austin not teach because of insurance???

MAOR INSURANCE?

This is a question that someone (a Board Member, probably) needs to ask our lawyer and insurance company to get clarification.

Do we need sponsors? Who is going to go them?

Yes, we need sponsors. But I think a prepared "kit" of some sort would make it easier for people to go to their own bosses, workplaces, and approach companies to make a pitch for why they should help us out.

Do we need more outreach and education? Whos in?

Do we need a new space? Who is looking? For what?

Floor space and power are the main issues with our current location. If there is another place on main street, that would be ideal. The city of Mesa was keen on getting HeatSync there, weren't they? Maybe we should reach out to them and say "hey, we'd like to stay, buuut we need...." and maybe they will be willing to help out somehow. A board member would probably be ideal for spearheading and organizing the effort.

Is our electrical situation untenable?

It is not only untenable, but of debatable safety as well. We have more than a dozen power tools on a single circuit, most of them connected through a daisy chain of extension cords and power bricks. It remains to be seen, but I suspect I was wrong before in saying the power should be adequate for the CNC mill. I have realized that the 720w power supply almost certainly doesn't power the main motor, which is 3HP. That actually could lead to a situation where we can't use other power tools simultaneously. Maybe.

Should board meeting frequency change?

Not without reason. If a major issue comes up, maybe a special meeting can be called.

Is hack your hackerspace messy? Define messy. Define clean.

Some organization would be helpful. Namely, a list of things that should be done weekly like mopping, checking the trash, vacuuming if necessary, etc. Just to be sure there is consistently where necessary.

Who wants to make documentation/video documentation?

Perhaps some more concrete ideas will help someone decide to take action.

Who wants to use the front windows more effectively. Define effectively.

Anything eye-catching and interesting should go in the windows. If someone has a particularly great looking project that would be good to show off, we should encourage them to put it up there. Anything that is interesting to look at.

Who will reboot augmented humanity (or run another event)?

Perhaps putting an article on the wiki or someplace acessable explaining what you should do if you have an event idea would help people know how to go about it.

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

Yea, I think so. Some "early ballot" box perhaps?

Do we need more board members? How many?

We are probably good where we are right now.

Can there be co-board members? Do we need to square the bylaws?

Should 2 treasurers be mandatory?

Two treasurers would be a wise move. The bylaws should be amended to require it.

Should HYH proposals be stronger WITH discussion BEFORE vote? How?

I think getting as much discussion done on the mailing list as possible would be the ideal. But any lingering concerns should be addressed at HYH if necessary.

Should there be changes to card access voting? Specifically anonymous voting be brought back to vote again?

Anonymous card access voting seems a good idea. 

Who will explode volunteerism by ORGANIZING?

There isn't any reason it HAS to be a board member, but since they were elected by majority and most of them made a point of wanting to do this, it would be very natural for one or more of our board members to get the ball rolling.

Is one of the wood benches 'broken'?

We have wooden benches?

Are Brian's tables not where they are supposed to be?

They have been moved to accommodate the CNC machine. I think where they are now is a very good arrangement that allows us to fit a new piece of equipment without sacrificing work space. 

Should we change the 'board roles' pages to better represent board roles and actions? Are they 'spiritual leaders?'

More clear wording would be a good idea. I repeat my definition of the function of a board member:

The role of the Board of HeatSync Labs has three parts:

1. To Guide the Community in the fulfillment of our mission and goals.
2. To Represent the Will of the Community where an official representation is necessary to interface with other organizations and to fulfil the Law of the land.
3. To Empower the Individuals that make up the Community of HeatSync Labs to take Action towards the ends of fulfilling our goals and mission.

The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

Why? SURELY we have better things to be concerned about and expend our energy on than the highly remote possibility of someone going to great lengths to hack into some web cameras to eavesdrop on conversations happening in a public venue? It's not that someone eavesdropping would be a good thing. But is it a real enough possibility to warrent such effort?

There needs to be a new website.

There are lots of ways to improve the website, yea. Jacob and company have been working on one idea that would improve things in a number of ways. Progress is (gradually) happening!

[Ben Humpherys]

Oh, another point on the "valued volunteers" getting a vote. In addition to creating a division between who is a "valued volonteer" and who is not, I don't think those of us who aren't paid and voting members need to be voting members to make cool things happen. Actually, thats a very good thing to have. Myself, as an example: I am not a paid member who can actually vote. But through thoughtful discussion and a little work, others got behind the idea of purchasing that CNC machine as well, and the vote was virtually unanimous. I think its great that people who aren't paid members with voting rights can still help make cool things happen.

[Short Tie]

Do we need safety certs/cards? How and when should we revoke access for violations?

The Boy scouts handle safety in an interesting way. Growing up we had to pass a test to get a card saying we were trained to use a knife or axe. If we were found braking the rules, a corner was taken off the card we got when we passed the test. The more serious infractions lost more corners. The last corner to go meant they trashed the card. You had to re-pass the test to get a new one. You couldn't use the equipment without showing your pass. Not a perfect system, but an interesting starting point maybe. Lasercut cards would be a challenge to fake (without access to the laser cutter). Cardstock is cheap.

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

I think this is a legal requirement for any public location that has hazardous material onsite. All it takes is a binder and knowledge about materials need an MSDS sheet.

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

If the community values every vote, then I think this would be a good thing. If it is more of a "if you have enough interest in what is being voted on, then show up some how" type thing, I think that is a valid point as well. With the ability to Skype/IM/Tele-presence in anyone who cares about a issue should be able to make that known in the current format.

On the other hand, we could set up a card based voting system. Have labeled readers (for/against) and those with cards could vote whenever, last vote the one that counted, one per card. Could be an interesting project.

[Will Bradley]

Great discussion on these, what do other people think? Do any of these deserve a HYH proposal or "hack day" to get them done?

--
 
 

[Nate Caine]

Is our electrical situation untenable?

 

Yes it is.

 

Here is Ben's response:

" It is not only untenable, but of debatable safety as well. We have more than a dozen power tools on a single circuit, most of them connected through a daisy chain of extension cords and power bricks. It remains to be seen, but I suspect I was wrong before in saying the power should be adequate for the CNC mill. I have realized that the 720w power supply almost certainly doesn't power the main motor, which is 3HP. That actually could lead to a situation where we can't use other power tools simultaneously. Maybe. "

 

First off, that shows that there was a real misunderstanding about the power requirements that Ben previously presented for the CNC mill.  Claiming, and presenting to the group, that the CNC only needed 720W never made sense, but we just shined our way thru it.  Now (based on this new "estimate") it appears that the actual power consumption may be 4-TIMES that (3,000W ?).  This will result in another round of "extension cord roulette".  Currently the Laser, Lathe, and Welder all share a single 220 VAC outlet in the back, and people are constantly swapping plugs and coordinating there work around others that need the outlet. 

 

The CNC, however, needs 120V instead, so that's good news.  Now the bad news:

 

The proposed "solution" for running the CNC appears to be to ship 120 VAC power from the back of the building thru some 50-year old wiring to the front circuit breakers.  We've already had multiple problems with the front breakers.  They cost $50 each to replace.  (The company went out of business because of lawsuits about their breakers burning people's houses down.) 

 

Then the electricity is sent back down the building, thru some "temporary" electrical work to the shop again.  ("Temporary" as it a year later, we are still using it.)

 

Additionally, the seller of the CNC recommends converting the motor to 220VAC anyway. That will add it to the 220VAC mess (Laser/Lathe/Welder).  Previously an expensive VFD was purchased to allow the 220VAC motor in Warren's blue manual mill to be run from 120VAC.  Either way you do the math...120VAC or 220VAC...we are way over the capacity to run this stuff simultaneously and safely.

 

This is a nightmare.

[Nate Caine]

Should the vote process formalized?

 

I don't know how formalized it needs to be, but it should be clear and shouldn't be open to interpretation. 

 

i.e.  One year, you're allowed to vote, the next year not allowed to vote.  Board didn't change.  Bylaws didn't change.  Only the "interpretation" changed.

[Nate Caine]

Ben said:

 

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

No. The problem is, you would then have to define who is a "valued member" and then, therefore, who is not. That's a division and distinction that would be harmful.

 

Thanks Ben, I appreciate that. 

Regardless, let me know next time you need help on the laser.  I'll still be there for you.

[Nate Caine]

Can Austin not teach because of insurance???

MAOR INSURANCE?

 

This question has come up before regarding, Welding, Lathe, and Laser classes.

These are HeatSync sanctione classes, required to get access to use these machines.

If, ultimately, somebody gets hurt does the instructor get sued?

 

What about somebody that teaches a course in soldering, glasswork, leathercraft?

How are those covered?

 

It would be nice to get a SOLID answer and guidance from our Insurance company and Lawyer.

Currently we get a lot of "jailhouse lawyering" interpretation from various board members.

While well-intentioned, it's not really binding.

 

Additionally, what happens when a HeatSync member alters or repairs some equipment and then somebody gets hurt?

Who covers that?

 

I dont' want to over complicate this, but it would be nice to get a consistent and cohernet answer.

Something in writing, online, in the Wiki, etc.

What do other hackerspaces do?

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

I look at "valued volunteers" (like Nate) as being members whose dues are essentially being donated by the community.  So yes.  The easy classifier for this is if they have a keycard.

So /keycard/ members should be able to vote.  If we're trusting you with a key to the lab, I think we should be trusting you to vote for things too.

tl;dr Nate should get to vote.

Is it a goal to get more signage?

No.  If somebody wants more signage, cool, do-ocracy the hell out of that, but I personally don't care.  Our "sign" is the rockets and interactive art stuff in the front window.

Should our bylaws be more 'serious'?

Absolutely and without question no.  They should be more silly.  We need to say specifically if we support The Alliance, for instance.  This is important to me. 

Should we change the bylaws Item 6 about guest tooluse?

Technically yes, but I will continue to violate this rule every single day.

Should bylaws allow board to appoint members?

No?  The board shouldn't do anything, and everything should happen in HYH.

What 'safety' in general are we lacking?

I don't think anybody was holding my hand last time I used the welder.

Do we need safety certs/cards?

No.

How and when should we revoke access for violations?

If you are a detriment to the community.  This should get voted on at HYH, and this specifically should be a blind vote.

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

Probably.

What about drunks at the space?

If somebody is making somebody else uncomfortable in the space, that needs to be addressed regardless of if its because of fermented sugar, shouting loudly, or playing too many chiptunes.

Do we need sponsors? Who is going to go them?

This feels like an old AOL forward right now!  Now take the first letter of your middle name, and close your eyes and count to ten.  IF YOU DON'T FORWARD THIS TO AT LEAST OVER 9000 PEOPLE YOU WILL DIE!

Of course we need more sponsors.  Everybody should get them.

Do we need more outreach and education? Whos in?

"If memebers want to see this, they should do-ocracy it into being"

Do we need a new space? Who is looking? For what?

"If memebers want to see this, they should do-ocracy it into being"

Is our electrical situation untenable?

Yes, obviously, because heatsync doesn't even exist right now.  The power that you see is a result of the very powerful psychedelic drugs that we pump through the ventilation system.

Should we fix the power?  Yes.  Should this be a priority?  Yes.  Should we probably spend money fixing the power before we buy any more several thousand dollar tools that it looks like maybe can't even be used due to the shitty situation of the power?

Yeah, probably.

Does this all suck, a lot, because there is a chance we could be leaving this space soon?

Yes.  We should see about working with the landlord to cut us a break on our rent if we improve the building.  Or the city.  Maybe we can get a grant  (Like Hugh Grant!  Swoooonnnn)?

Should board meeting frequency change?

No.

Is hack your hackerspace messy? Define messy. Define clean.

No.  Have you ever been to any lab or creative space ever?  Creatives (like...people who spend their time building hackerspaces) tend to create things.  This creating generally involves having some of those "things" around.

Things should be tidy and organized, but our lab is pretty frigging spotless in my opinion.

Except some assclown left a bunch of plywood under one of the workbenches in the back.  Somebody find that guy and hit him REALLY hard for me.  Also probably a bunch of rebar, and some sort of hippie dome or something.

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

No.  If you can't be bothered to show up to vote, you don't get to vote.

Are Brian's tables not where they are supposed to be?

I lol'd at "Brian's tables".

The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

The microphones in the cameras are absolutely overflowing with bravery.

Honestly the microphones: I don't even understand why this is a "thing", and I feel like I'm on the butt end of a really, really long troll.  What if somebody cracks into our network, and jiggers the bits to control Tim's hedatron robot, it comes to the table where I am standing, and insults my mother?!  WHAT THEN!?

This seems about as likely as somebody (maybe government agents?  Or THE RUSSIANS!) listening in to the lab via the conspiracy-phones in the cameras.

There needs to be a new website.

"If members want to see this, they should do-ocracy it into being"

--
 
 

[Ben Humpherys]

"So /keycard/ members should be able to vote.  If we're trusting you with a key to the lab, I think we should be trusting you to vote for things too."

That sounds very reasonable to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what other criteria currently makes you eligible to be considered for a keycard outside of being a $50/mo member? I just don't want to see "voting members" become an exclusive club of first-class citizens. Which, in reality, is probably not a big concern. Just make sure policies and such encourage inclusivity :)

[Jerry Davis]

Should $25 members vote?

    definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.

Should the vote process formalized?

    Yes. There should be a way to vote on any proposal or election using the web. I believe there are sites out there we can use to do that.

Should you still be a dues paying member to run for board?

    Yes. dues paying and current.

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

    No. There is no criteria on who is more valued than others.

Is it a goal to get more signage?

    ?

Should our bylaws be more 'serious'?

    ?

Should we change the bylaws Item 6 about guest tooluse?

    I believe that item 6 is not being followed now. should we reflect that bylaw in what is considered common use now, or begin to enforce it? That would be a board decision.

Should bylaws allow board to appoint members?

    yes.

What 'safety' in general are we lacking?

     ?

Do we need safety certs/cards?

    probably. on major tools. but then how would you enforce usage?

How and when should we revoke access for violations?

    depends upon the violation. we need to come up with a written set of them.

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

    ?

What about drunks at the space?

    definitely not, they belong somewhere else.

Can Austin not teach because of insurance???

    ?

MAOR INSURANCE?

    ?

Do we need sponsors? Who is going to go them?

     yes. the officers are the legal representatives - they should be the actual spokespersons. however, any lead can come from any member.

Do we need more outreach and education? Whos in?

     yes. especially to the younger generation.

Do we need a new space? Who is looking? For what?

     definitely. the biggest problem is POWER as in lack of, and antiquity of.

Is our electrical situation untenable?

    I would say so. lets just say it is a good thing that any inspector has not come around.

Should board meeting frequency change?

    no.

Is hack your hackerspace messy? Define messy. Define clean.

    ?

Who wants to make documentation/video documentation?

    ?

Who wants to use the front windows more effectively. Define effectively.

    ?

Who will reboot augmented humanity (or run another event)?

    ?

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

    anytime (not just the day before). and done via the web.

Do we need more board members? How many?

    probably. we need commitees.

Can there be co-board members? Do we need to square the bylaws?

    ?

Should 2 treasurers be mandatory?

    yes.

Should HYH proposals be stronger WITH discussion BEFORE vote? How?

    yes. I think the proposer, ought to put a page on the wiki for the proposal, and discussions can happen there. thats what wiki's are for.

Should there be changes to card access voting? Specifically anonymous voting be brought back to vote again?

    ?

Who will explode volunteerism by ORGANIZING?

    ?

Is one of the wood benches 'broken'?

    ?

Are Brian's tables not where they are supposed to be?

    use them where they are most needed.

Should we change the 'board roles' pages to better represent board roles and actions? Are they 'spiritual leaders?'

    yes. officers usually are the leaders.

The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

     if this was the "gubment", i would really have a concern. and legally, we might be open to litigation later. so they should probably be disabled.

There needs to be a new website.

    i believe its being worked on.

-- 

Licensed Amateur Radio Operator: K7AZJ
Registered Linux User: 275424
Arduino programmer

Recursion: (noun):
      see: Recursion

[Will Bradley]

Ryan said: /keycard/ members should be able to vote.  If we're trusting you with a key to the lab, I think we should be trusting you to vote for things too.

Technically, it's me who is trusting Nate and Austin with a key card. I gave it to them with my Board Powerz back when we moved in so they could do awesome helpful things like paint, work on the laser, fix building issues, etc (and contingent upon volunteering, they aren't honorary cardholders-for-life.) Also, nobody is paying for them or giving them the board scholarship. This is kindof an oddball exception to all the rules that's held over from back when the community expected the board to handle everything for them (probably because the board made up the majority of paying members at that time...)

The community seems to have grown to trust them as well, but the community has never discussed or decided anything regarding the "operations team" until now. I think this is a great topic for a HYH proposal. Explode volunteerism by rewarding dedicated volunteers? Key card access is a prized possession...

[JR]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2012 12:46:28 PM UTC-7, jdawgaz wrote:

Should $25 members vote?

    definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.

definitely not.  If you want to vote, get a full membership not an associate/junior membership.

Having tiers lets people try it out at a lower expense, then upgrade as they want.  If you price the entry too high, they just won't join.  But you need something at the upper tiers to make it worth upgrading.

And in my case, I view not being able to vote having some positive aspects - I can stay out of all the politics.  If I think things need to go a different direction, then I'll upgrade to a full membership.  Meanwhile, as someone who often makes it the lab only once a month (or quarter sometimes), the $25 associate membership is what I need/want.

Since I use the lab (mostly the laser) for my custom card boxes, I write the membership off as an expense.  With the IRS being more picky about how much profit you have to make before they decide it's a hobby and not a business, limiting the expense is a big concern.

[Jerry Davis]

JR I disagree.

at $25 you get to vote, but not have a box or get probable key card access

at $50 you get the box and key card access (eventually)

so there *IS* a division and a clear one.

If you pay you get to vote.

my $0.02

Jerry

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

To be clear, the community did decide to allow $25 votes at HYH.

--
 
 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.

Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation?  For instance, if somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?  Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this.  It was kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.

>There should be a way to vote on any proposal or election using the web. I believe there are sites out there we can use to do that.

Without being condescending here: do you have any idea how difficult this would be to maintain?  A lot of us grew up breaking EXACTLY these types of systems.

Putting our voting process online would be a nightmare.  Do you want to try and run this?  If so, let me know, I'd really like a plasma table.

>No. There is no criteria on who is more valued than others.

This seems contradictory to the "inclusive" ideal of giving a vote to $25 members.    If these "valued members" (we're talking about Nate and Austin here) donated $0.01/mo to the lab, would that entitle them to a vote, in your opinion?

>I believe that item 6 is not being followed now. should we reflect that bylaw in what is considered common use now, or begin to enforce it? That would be a board decision.

Our board exists only because it legally has to.  This would be an HYH decision.

>What about drunks at the space?

>definitely not, they belong somewhere else.

What about people who have had too much coffee?

>yes. the officers are the legal representatives - they should be the actual spokespersons. however, any lead can come from any member.

This is in direct contradiction to everything that our culture is built on top of.

>Do we need more board members? How many?

>probably. we need commitees.

This is also in direct contradiction to our culture.

You should read this: http://www.communitywiki.org/en/DoOcracy

>The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

>if this was the "gubment", i would really have a concern. and legally, we might be open to litigation later. so they should probably be disabled.

I think there is a LOT of confusion here.  The mics are, effectively, disabled in the same way that the mic in the telephone is currently disabled.

Could somebody "hack into" the VOIP phone and activate the microphone?  Probably.

Should we spend a month or two arguing about if we should be allowed to have a telephone in our space?

I don't really think that fits with our "mission".

-Notrix

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.

Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation?  For instance, if somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?  Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this.  It was kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.

sorry this was a kind of absurd comment. but of course, I meant $25 members.

--
 
 

[Chad Stearns]

Yeah. Just as a reminder. In June I proposed 5 specific voting rules for the HYH. Not all of them passed but the following did:

1. $25 members can vote and count towards quorum

2. Quorum consists of 8 members to be present at the beginning of Hack Your Hackerspace

3.  Hack Your Hackerspace begins between 7:00pm-7:30pm

4. Yes/No/Abstain: Motion carries based on majority of voting members non including abstentions

So remember these! Every now and then someone asks questions about these like they arent not determined. They are spelled out. We can change them, but at the moment they exist.

-ChadCS

[Ryan Rix]

That's what he meant. But, as he said, that was originally designed by the
board before the one I served on to act as another form of donation, the "i
want to support you monthly but can't justify a 50$ membership"-form.

Has that attitude changed?

r

On Wed 31 October 2012 17:14:41 Jerry Davis wrote:
> *>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.*

> Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation? For instance, if
> somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?
> Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this. It was
> kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to
> support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.
>
> sorry this was a kind of absurd comment. but of course, I meant $25 members.
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > *>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.*

> > Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation? For instance, if
> > somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?
> >
> > Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this. It
> > was
> >
> > kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to
> > support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.
> >

> > >*There should be a way to vote on any proposal or election using the
> >
> > web. I believe there are sites out there we can use to do that.*

> > Without being condescending here: do you have any idea how difficult this
> > would be to maintain? A lot of us grew up breaking EXACTLY these types of
> > systems.
> >
> > Putting our voting process online would be a nightmare. Do you want to
> > try and run this? If so, let me know, I'd really like a plasma table.
> >

> > >*No. There is no criteria on who is more valued than others.*

> >
> > This seems contradictory to the "inclusive" ideal of giving a vote to $25
> > members. If these "valued members" (we're talking about Nate and Austin
> > here) donated $0.01/mo to the lab, would that entitle them to a vote, in
> > your opinion?
> >

> > >*I believe that item 6 is not being followed now. should we reflect that

> >
> > bylaw in what is considered common use now, or begin to enforce it? That

> > would be a board decision*.

> >
> > Our board exists only because it legally has to. This would be an HYH
> > decision.
> >

> > *>What about drunks at the space?*
> > *>definitely not, they belong somewhere else.*

> >
> > What about people who have had too much coffee?
> >

> > *>yes. the officers are the legal representatives - they should be the
> > actual spokespersons. however, any lead can come from any member.*

> >
> > This is in direct contradiction to everything that our culture is built on
> > top of.
> >

> > *>Do we need more board members? How many?*
> > *>probably. we need commitees.*
> > *
> > *

> > This is also in direct contradiction to our culture.
> > You should read this: http://www.communitywiki.org/en/DoOcracy
> >

> > *>The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.*
> > *>if this was the "gubment", i would really have a concern. and legally,

> > we might be open to litigation later. so they should probably be disabled.

> > *

> --
--
Ryan Rix
http://rix.si

[Ryan Rix]

But not in the board, which is IMO the context of this discussion.

[Ryan Rix]

That's what he meant. But, as he said, that was originally designed by the
board before the one I served on to act as another form of donation, the "i
want to support you monthly but can't justify a 50$ membership"-form.

Has that attitude changed? Why am I (or anyone) paying 50$ if I can earn a
card through being an awesome community member, and earn a vote for half the
cost?

r

On Wed 31 October 2012 17:14:41 Jerry Davis wrote:

> *>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.*

> Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation? For instance, if
> somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?
> Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this. It was
> kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to
> support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.
>
> sorry this was a kind of absurd comment. but of course, I meant $25 members.
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > *>definitely, if you pay to be a member, you should be allowed a vote.*

> > Should this be true of anybody who makes a donation? For instance, if
> > somebody drops a $5 in the jar at the front, should they get a vote?
> >
> > Originally the $25 membership level was an online version of this. It
> > was
> >
> > kindof meant as "hey, I think what you're doing is cool, and want to
> > support you, but probably won't be there much/at all.
> >

> > >*There should be a way to vote on any proposal or election using the
> >
> > web. I believe there are sites out there we can use to do that.*

> > Without being condescending here: do you have any idea how difficult this
> > would be to maintain? A lot of us grew up breaking EXACTLY these types of
> > systems.
> >
> > Putting our voting process online would be a nightmare. Do you want to
> > try and run this? If so, let me know, I'd really like a plasma table.
> >

> > >*No. There is no criteria on who is more valued than others.*

> >
> > This seems contradictory to the "inclusive" ideal of giving a vote to $25
> > members. If these "valued members" (we're talking about Nate and Austin
> > here) donated $0.01/mo to the lab, would that entitle them to a vote, in
> > your opinion?
> >

> > >*I believe that item 6 is not being followed now. should we reflect that

> >
> > bylaw in what is considered common use now, or begin to enforce it? That

> > would be a board decision*.

> >
> > Our board exists only because it legally has to. This would be an HYH
> > decision.
> >

> > *>What about drunks at the space?*
> > *>definitely not, they belong somewhere else.*

> >
> > What about people who have had too much coffee?
> >

> > *>yes. the officers are the legal representatives - they should be the
> > actual spokespersons. however, any lead can come from any member.*

> >
> > This is in direct contradiction to everything that our culture is built on
> > top of.
> >

> > *>Do we need more board members? How many?*
> > *>probably. we need commitees.*
> > *
> > *

> > This is also in direct contradiction to our culture.
> > You should read this: http://www.communitywiki.org/en/DoOcracy
> >

> > *>The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.*
> > *>if this was the "gubment", i would really have a concern. and legally,

> > we might be open to litigation later. so they should probably be disabled.

> > *

[Will Bradley]

Are these decisions documented on the wiki anywhere? If not they should be...

--
 
 

[Chad Stearns]

I copied and pasted the minutes from the wiki, but there is a thread someone that lists the results.

-ChadCS

[Harry Meier]

Playing devil's advocate for a sec here I see this from two viewpoints. On one hand other non profit orgs give board vote to the smallest "membership" or regular donation level. If our board members are just spiritual guides who happen to represent the org on paper, then being able to vote for board members is a akin to having a say in the overall spirit of the organization. HYH vote is actually a much more powerful statement over the day to day operations of the space. A HYH vote could change things drastically overnight. A board vote might just change who signs a paper for the rest of us. 

On the other hand if you see the board as the board of a startup, one where they are the operations leads and the ones calling the shots, then a board vote is more significant. It makes sense that a higher standard was placed on board voting early on. The board could technically rewrite the bylaws, so you don't want someone able to buy up a few memberships for some friends and essentially buy the board seats. 

My take is that we started with a powerful board with good reason, but the organization has purposefully moved away from that model for good reason. As the board get less powerful it behooves us to have more votes by more people with the spirit of the organization in mind. That way the board accurately reflects the goals of the wider audience. For Example. I'm not saying this is the case, but if the membership makeup starts to seem like a handful of $50 card access members and a bunch of associate members who just troll around the Google group and pop into the lab from time to time, maybe the physical location or some bigger more subtle thing about the lab is keeping those people from upgrading and being there more often. They already have HYH vote, but what if it's a problem with the high level direction of the organization? People tend to vote with their wallets and will downgrade if the lab isn't serving them. Giving those voices board vote seems like a good way to prevent the lab from stagnating.

So if you're in the do-ocracy camp, if you think the hackerspace is really run by those willing to run it, and if you think the board should only be there to sign the paperwork and represent for the lawyers, then why give $25 members HYH vote and not board vote? You've already given $25 members the figurative keys to the place (even while requiring $50 to get the actual keys). A board vote should be the least of your worries. 

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

Harry, to follow that logic through, we'd need to adjust the bylaws to impose restrictions on the board so power really is in the hands of the community, not just because the current board says it is. Currently, there's very little power the Board *doesn't* have, short of state and federal laws governing nonprofits and corporations. The Board currently passes power to the community, but it doesn't currently have to. It's currently very important to elect benevolent dictators (and some would argue, every corporation is one bad board away from failure regardless of the rules put in place.)

--
 
 

[Harry Meier]

Bylaws revision was another topic :)

I agree though that is where this logic is headed if a majority of us agree that the board needs to just be spirit guides and legal signers. I do hear an opposition to that direction too. That's a third topic...

--
 
 

[Brian Aday]

Perhaps I am remaking Harry's point, but let's not assume that a hand of people that participate on the Google group represent the majority of the community. I would guess a lot of people are tuned out because this thread is covering dozens of topics (TL;DR). We have about 80 members. 15 show up to HYH, and 30 show up for board elections. If you want to know what the majority thinks you are going to have to find some other way of getting their input.

--
 
 

[Jerry Davis]

I think I would like to explain something. And I am not very good at doing so statically, but I will try.

What I meant about our Board/esp. Officers, being the "spiritual" head of the organization is this:

In every organization there are leaders and followers. Ideally, the leaders would be those who are "at the helm" so to speak, but that is NOT necessarily always the case. Ideally, we voted for those Officers and Board members in the last election, that have a "vision" of what this organization is to become/will be in 1, 2, 5, or 10 years out.

What I meant by "spiritual leadership" is just that, they conceive a vision, get concensus, and come up with a plan to move forward with that vision. Once that part is done, then the "do-ocracy" part kicks in, and us volunteers help to bring that vision towards reality.

I know this isn't very eloquent, and not at all articulated properly. But I hope that it is taken in the spirit in which it was given.

Jerry 

[Mike Wolfson]

My 2¢... 

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

No, "valued" is totally subjective.  An alternative might be a HeatSync Scholarship, which would cover the costs of these valued members (getting them paid status), if financial hardship is demonstrated, or for another reason.

Should $25 members vote?
If you care enough about HS to pay $300/year, you deserve a formal voice.  I mostly pay my membership to show support for HS (I am not in the space very much, but want to help "keep the lights on"). 

Should the member access rules  formalized?
Don't we frequently have discussion regarding what level of member can do what (get card access, use which tools, ...) . I think there should be much more formalized definitions about this.  For instance: can membership revoked and for what (too many safety violations, or because "we don't like you").

Should the vote process formalized?

Yes, this stuff needs to be formalized, so we can just end the discussion, and have the rules in black and white.  End the discussion every time this stuff comes up (and get back to making stuff).

What about drunks at the space?

I think mixing alcohol with unsupervised power tools is a dangerous thing,  I am not a tea-toller by any means, but I don't think a hackerspace is the place for inebriation.

Should you still be a dues paying member to run for board?
Yes

Do we need safety certs/cards?

It would be nice be able to easily identify who is in the space, and what they have access to do (especially strangers, which is just someone you haven't met yet).  Perhaps you log into a kiosk, when you enter HS, and there is a web-page displaying who is in the space, and what they have access to do.

Bottom line, I do think it is time to formalize the rules a bit (I know there have been efforts to do this before, that have fizzled).  I think we have formalized rules and procedures agreed upon, the PITA aspect of running HS will become more manageable.

I wonder if it would make sense to have a formal all-day "Rule Hacking" day, in the form of an all day HYH, with the agenda of formalizing all these things?  I have participated in a few of these forums in my life, so I have some thoughts on how this could be structured (to be productive, and friendly).

Cheers,
-Mike

On Saturday, October 27, 2012 4:30:32 AM UTC-7, Jacob Rosenthal wrote:

We've got a few weeks before HYH so we've got time to make proposals and argue how to make the space better.

The following is a list of issues that were raised a few weeks ago. Pick yours or your favorite, and discuss or act on it:

We need a list of stuff to be done for PRIOR to HYH-IVE GOT THIS ONE!

Should $25 members vote?

Should the vote process formalized?

Should you still be a dues paying member to run for board?

Should valued volunteers get a vote?

Is it a goal to get more signage?

Should our bylaws be more 'serious'?

Should we change the bylaws Item 6 about guest tooluse?

Should bylaws allow board to appoint members?

What 'safety' in general are we lacking?

Do we need safety certs/cards?

How and when should we revoke access for violations?

Do we need MSDS sheets in binder?

What about drunks at the space?

Can Austin not teach because of insurance???

MAOR INSURANCE?

Do we need sponsors? Who is going to go them?

Do we need more outreach and education? Whos in?

Do we need a new space? Who is looking? For what?

Is our electrical situation untenable?

Should board meeting frequency change?

Is hack your hackerspace messy? Define messy. Define clean.

Who wants to make documentation/video documentation?

Who wants to use the front windows more effectively. Define effectively.

Who will reboot augmented humanity (or run another event)?

Should HYH voting in absentee be allowed a day before?

Do we need more board members? How many?

Can there be co-board members? Do we need to square the bylaws?

Should 2 treasurers be mandatory?

Should HYH proposals be stronger WITH discussion BEFORE vote? How?

Should there be changes to card access voting? Specifically anonymous voting be brought back to vote again?

Who will explode volunteerism by ORGANIZING?

Is one of the wood benches 'broken'?

Are Brian's tables not where they are supposed to be?

Should we change the 'board roles' pages to better represent board roles and actions? Are they 'spiritual leaders?'

The cameras have microphones. Last chance to take action.

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Time to act. You've got until Thursday midnight to get your proposals in for HYH.

[Brian Aday]

We are having HYH on Thanksgiving? 

--
 
 

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Good point how are we dealing with the holiday? 

Sent from my iPhone

--
 
 

[r...@n.rix.si]

No proposals so far, people in town should show up and clean on Friday instead of trampling each other for consumerist trinkets. If there are proposals, they should be voted on on Friday because enough people will be cleaning up to make quorom.... Right? ;)

I'll tell Phong, whatever the plans are.

(full disclosure I'll be out of town trampling people on trolley tours)

-- Sent from my HP webOS Device on Verizon Wireless

---

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

I'm also planning a food thingy the day before, we could make Wednesday a vote/clean day followed by food.

--
 
 

[Gadget]

that would take care of the where for the pre-t-day dinner. We would just then need to figure who is going to cook what.

[Michael Mathers]

"Key card access is a prized possession..."

As a new $50 member I'm still trying to understand the ambiguities around access.  Last Saturday I came in to the space (I checked that several folks were already there) and was told because it isn't "public" hours I need to be sponsored to even be there.  And to be sponsored I had to state what I was going to do and it had to be compatible with whatever criteria the key-card-access member felt like using at the time. The implication was that I needed to be supervised in some way.

I'm not sure where the supervision portion comes in (or why).  Presumably, since I am not the "public" (ie guest) I can come in during "public hours" and conduct my business as such without supervision according to the rules and responsibilities that HSL sets (ie, using machines I'm certified to use, etc).  Key card access is merely access to enter the building outside of those hours when no one is there right?  

It seems weird to me that even though, say a half dozen folks are there at a reasonable time of day, that I need to be supervised or refused entry depending on the type of work I want to do (unless it's 7p-10p M-F).  Wouldn't a sign-in/out suffice?  (with the understanding that if the key-card-access folks go that I have to as well)?

[Michael Mathers]

Emphatic, yes.

[Chad Stearns]

I made a proposal about key card access.

-ChadCS

[Jeremy Davis]

I want key card access as well and I somewhat agree with michael the trust issue is logical, but the process as explained is quite vague. I think vague is a disservice for 50 a month. 600 a year. I can pay it and happy to and want to help and learn and be a part. So I fully agree of a process beyond give me 50 I give you key card. But the when people get to know and trust you could be fixed with a more formal process like take x number of safety/tool classes? This builds trust and relationships by way of clear action. Way better. The biz of not being allowed in off hours if someone is there is not really cool either. One thing to be asked to build trust and relationships its another to be asked to sign up and pay and be met with wolf in sheep clothing skepticism. At that point member badges might help. Wear one in every office worked useful and helpful to balance security and large work community.

[Ryan Rix]

You're right, sorry. Phone search missed it.

so, wat do

On Wed 14 November 2012 22:08:42 Chad Stearns wrote:
> I made a proposal about key card access.
>
> -ChadCS
>
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:46:28 PM UTC-7, Ryan Rix wrote:
> > No proposals so far, people in town should show up and clean on Friday
> > instead of trampling each other for consumerist trinkets. If there are
> > proposals, they should be voted on on Friday because enough people will
be
> > cleaning up to make quorom.... Right? ;)
> >
> > I'll tell Phong, whatever the plans are.
> >
> > (full disclosure I'll be out of town trampling people on trolley tours)
> >
> > -- Sent from my HP webOS Device on Verizon Wireless
> >

> > ------------------------------

> > On Nov 14, 2012 17:32, Jacob Rosenthal <jakero...@gmail.com

<javascript:>>

> > wrote:
> >
> > Good point how are we dealing with the holiday?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:30 PM, Brian Aday <proje...@gmail.com

<javascript:>>

> > wrote:
> >
> > We are having HYH on Thanksgiving?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Jacob Rosenthal

> > <jakero...@gmail.com<javascript:>>

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Again, remember, we have no staff, and nobody works here.  This is a community not a service. That is to say no one is being paid to watch you don't cut off your fingers or ours.

Our public hours, 7pm-10pm, are where many of our members, but sadly not enough of our members to make that window any larger, DO offer to watch and train you for free.

We never ask anyone to pay to be a member and in fact we'd prefer you didn't. Because remember, were not a business. 

The majority of our awesome members didn't pay for MONTHS at first until they found, maybe to their surprise, this was a home to them and they very much wanted to support it and make it grow with their time and money. 

You find a way to fit in here by meeting people, asking their names, showing yourself to have our values, and asking politely if you can come in more and meet more people. 

This is all as it should be and makes us very happy.

[Will Bradley]

Indeed, as I try to (sometimes poorly) explain during new member training, if you open the door for people you ARE responsible for supervising them and if you aren't comfortable with that you are under no obligation to let a person in. Also, access outside of 7-10 (and keycard approval) is based off the relationships and trust you build with other members. If you knock on the door at noon, or 2am, you will be met with skepticism unless you know each other. 

Come in during "open hours," ask on the list if people will be around if you want to come outside of those hours, make friends and build trust. You're asking a favor of someone when you try to come in late or early.

Sorry if you didn't get the gist of this when you became members, Jerry and Michael. To review, here are the links I follow and suggest new members read (all works in progress):

http://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Walk_Through_Orientation

http://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Faq

http://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Rules

http://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Operational_Policies

I solidly disagree with a standardized requirements for after-hours access, aside from the vote already in place for card access. We have no staff; I can't bend anyone's arm to make sure they're monitoring lab safety tomorrow from 9am to 6pm, and we sure as hell can't afford to let brand-new members come in and use tools without friendly eyes and ears nearby to help with questions (new bandsaw blades and constant Ultimaker maintenance, anyone?) Just because someone's taken five classes and been a member for three weeks doesn't mean they can be left alone in the lab (who here remembers Cell Cubby?) -- I might feel comfortable taking responsibility for pyromaniacs, whereas Jerry might just want to work in peace, and I see no problem with that. (Even during "open" hours, whoever opens the door is graciously taking responsibility for whoever walks through that door. You do not have to open the door for anyone, regardless of the time or how much they've paid, if you don't trust them. Lab safety starts with you.)

--
 
 

[Ryan Rix]

Aside: Ultimaker hasn't been broken due to new/untrained member misuse, but
just general wear and tear without enough bandwidth for proper day to day
maintenance. I've been working on bringing passionate members up to speed on
those bits and things are slowly improving.

On Thu 15 November 2012 02:31:44 Will Bradley wrote:
> constant Ultimaker maintenance, anyone?

[Will Bradley]

*Jeremy Davis, not Jerry Davis, sorry for the mixup.

[Jerry Davis]

yeah. np. gotten that all my life. go to any town, and you will find a number of Davis's. 

there is a high probability that at least one "Jerry" Davis will be there too.

:)

--
 
 

[Nate Caine]

Michael, for a new member, you certainly are complaining a lot.

 

Now don't get me wrong; there is plenty to complain about here at HeatSync, but you have to pace yourself, or you'll wear yourself out.

 

-------------

 

Now it's true that the card access policy is vague and elusive, and from time-to-time it's been discussed much, but so far nothing better has come along.

 

Month's back when this came up, I expressed my own personal criteria in a note string here:

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/heatsynclabs/tim$20gerrits/heatsynclabs/fxLfCjHrInI/MiK3ADserLkJ

 

While I don't purport that that's the definitive criteria, several people mentioned that they look for similar traits, and added a few of their own to the list as well.

 

It works for me, and that somewhat guides me when card access votes come up.

[Jeremy Davis]

Ya don't get me wrong, I really like the get to know everyone and build trust piece. I really was thinking more of an "in addition to" that, wouldn't it be smart to have them get trained on key pieces of equipment first. 

But it might just be me, after Will explained the concept, which you did fine and I read the stuff, albeit I did not memorize it, I had the thought that I additionally feel responsible to be able to safely operate and or shutdown and safely be aware of the major machines. In case I am here alone or with someone else off hours even if I am not using it, being a back up would be my added responsibility. So in the vagueness of come hang out and chat with folks, which I just have so little free form time to do, I told myself, lets make sure I drive class participation to learn the tools myself, and from that get to know the experts and get involved. It also just makes a nice mental note of when I can request a vote on access fairly. When I have finished training on laser which Nate did wicked awesome with giving, and welding and maybe mill, I will make the proposal for access off hours. Thought maybe that kind of addition to the get to know people and build trust would help existing members judge and new members have a clear and safety oriented thing to do first before even thinking about asking for a vote. Not so much after you do x classes you just get access.

But to be fair, I have spent my career working in complex office/business systems where designing business processes and formal procedures was a huge part of my job for data security, supply chain management, staff training etc. So I lean to the mindset that is a bit more clear direction, and not all of that is appropriate in this community so I definitely understand the preference to keep it free form.

Also Nate, your criteria is great, but I think from your laser class the other night you like some defined structure as well, wife and I both found your class to be amazing. I even appreciated you giving us some gentle harassment about forgetting to read the materials. :)

[Will Bradley]

Great point Jeremy, indeed it's a great idea to be familiar with all the tools so you can help people who come in. I don't mention it since it's such a high-level generous thing, but maybe I should :)

--
 
 

[Will Bradley]

I have some answers from our insurance company. If I missed something or anyone has further questions, I can forward your questions to the insurance company and/or our lawyer. Also, I can give our insurance contact info to individuals if you're interested; I'm not hoarding all the fun for myself!

• Can Austin not teach because of insurance??? MAOR INSURANCE?

• This question has come up before regarding, Welding, Lathe, and Laser classes.
  These are HeatSync sanctione classes, required to get access to use these machines.
  If, ultimately, somebody gets hurt does the instructor get sued?

According to the insurance rep, our insurance pays for accidental injuries within the lab. 

Our liability waiver includes a Covenant Not To Sue which says it covers all members, agents, etc. <opinion>I would argue that anyone teaching a class at HeatSync is an agent. This doesn't PREVENT a lawsuit (can anything stop a person from filing paperwork with the Court?) but it does offer some protection once you're in court.</opinion>

Regarding the "making a video requires E&O insurance" question, the rep says that she doubts it's necessary. She's getting a quote for me anyway, but suggests we simply put a disclaimer on the video saying we're just giving advice and to be safe, not sue us, etc. She says E&O would be advised if we charged for the video, billed it as a complete safety reference, or charged lots of money for classes/memberships, but since we're giving away this info for free or cheap, she doubts E&O is needed.

• What about somebody that teaches a course in soldering, glasswork, leathercraft?
  

According to the insurance rep, our insurance pays for accidental injuries within the lab.

• Additionally, what happens when a HeatSync member alters or repairs some equipment and then somebody gets hurt?
  

The insurance rep will not answer such questions in writing, and won't comment on hypothetical claims because "the details of every claim are different." I can forward anyone who's interested the documents I have, which basically say "Application for Accidental Death and Accidental Medical Benefits", "Policyholder is: COMMUNITY CENTER (no sports)", "7 Volunteers and/or 85 Participants/Clients", "Accidental Medical Expense Benefits: $5,000", "Both Classes (Volunteers & Participants/Clients), $300", "Period: 1 year", "Deductible: $0, Accidental Death: $10,000, Accidental Dismemberment: $50,000, AD&D Aggregate Limit: $500,000." The documents I have don't go into detail about specific coverage or exclusions.

According to the insurance rep, our insurance pays accidental injuries within the lab.

• What do other hackerspaces do?
  

<opinion>Generally, find an insurance company, try to explain what a hackerspace is to them, and hope they find a reasonable classification for you. See discussion here: http://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2011-October/004694.html and here: http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Insurance -- insurance companies seem to want to know what your policies are for screening employees (same as screening volunteer instructors?), want to see your liability waiver, and want to know how many classes you teach at what dollars per class.</opinion>