What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <kriko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
> Regards,
> Gregorio
Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for the space.
I would like to make a series of safety videos with anyone with expertise
in any area for the lab. I'd also like to see if we could implement a
basic safety cert stamp for a card or something to verify that a member has
been trained and oriented on the usage of certain equipment and also work
to develop a system to temporarily revoke rights for use if the station
head decides there was a major safety violation with review from the
membership at the next meeting.
Keep in mind that all of this is contingent on membership approval, but I
think these steps would be a good start to improve safety conditions of the
lab and keep people accountable for their actions on equipment. I
understand that accidents happen but we can minimize the risk if people are
required to be informed and recognize that use of equipment in the lab is a
privilege.
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 12:21 PM, krikorik <kriko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety
> practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed
> storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I
> know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for
> the space.
> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
>>> Regards,
>>> Gregorio
We have been talking about tool safety video's for a while now. To fill
everyone else in, there is a legal liability issue that has prevented this
from moving forward. If Austin is elected the problem will be
solved, because the board members are covered by an insurance called
'Errors and Omissions'.
In fact there are a lot more video's on the drawing board. Paul and I are
both into creating video, for me it is specifically basic how-to video but
Paul's skills are way above what I can do. I would like to have a library
of not only safety video's, but basic tool use and project videos. These
would not replace the gateway classes for the more complicated tools like
the laser, lathe. mill, and welders but it would fill in with the tools
people don't normally use like the bending brake, plastic welder, and
shear. We would make it easy to play the video while in the space so that
you would always have a teacher available in the form of a video.
If the video contains bad information or forgets to include something
critical, someone could die or get hurt. If a stupid happens, the producers
and people in the video could be legally liable. E&O insurance pays to
reattach fingers and keep doors open. Something like that.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Robert Bell <r...@tradica.com> wrote:
> If the video contains bad information or forgets to include something
> critical, someone could die or get hurt. If a stupid happens, the producers
> and people in the video could be legally liable. E&O insurance pays to
> reattach fingers and keep doors open. Something like that.
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moogli...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?
On Monday, October 8, 2012 1:02:43 PM UTC-7, Robert Bell wrote: > ^That's assuming board members are covered by HSL's current policy. > But what happens in three years if person in video is no longer a board > member?
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Robert Bell <r...@tradica.com<javascript:> > > wrote:
>> If the video contains bad information or forgets to include something >> critical, someone could die or get hurt. If a stupid happens, the producers >> and people in the video could be legally liable. E&O insurance pays to >> reattach fingers and keep doors open. Something like that.
>> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moog...@gmail.com<javascript:> >> > wrote:
>>> How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?
I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around, but a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen people look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up to this task?
Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the tools I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative opportunity for whoever makes them.
Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently have in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a substitute for watching out for your fellow hacker.
Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so I would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have a pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for the space.
> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
> Regards,
> Gregorio
I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.
The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern ourselves with when and how danger will strike.
In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious practices such as labels, and warnings.
On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:53:26 PM UTC-7, Tim Gerrits wrote:
> I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the > lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around, but > a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen people > look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also > seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up to > this task?
> Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the tools I > think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative > opportunity for whoever makes them.
> Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently have > in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a substitute > for watching out for your fellow hacker.
> Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so I > would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have a > pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share > knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being > afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
> Tim
> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:21 PM, krikorik wrote:
> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety > practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed > storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I > know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for > the space.
> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi >>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space. >>> Regards, >>> Gregorio
But I would like to make clear that one of the MAJOR contributing factors
to Heatsync's success as a hackerspace (and we are one of the best
hackerspaces in the country) is our bottom-up management approach.
Making the lab a safe place isn't the responsibility of the board, it's the
responsibility of the responsible people who are responsibly using the
facility and its tools.
If you see chemicals being stored in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR
responsibility to remedy this. If you see somebody using a tool in an
unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to educate them on why.
The understanding that you should be concerned for your own safety is
important. Don't walk up to something and assume that its safe, that is
how you get hurt. Be present in what you're doing, and make SURE that what
you're doing is safe.
Anybody who has taken a gun safety course knows that every gun should
always be treated as if it is loaded, and everybody who has ever taken a
shop safety class knows that every saw should be treated as if it is
running until you unplug it from the wall.
If there is anything that we can do to increase the safety of the lab, it
is to drive this point home: safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Chad Stearns <chadstear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.
> The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest
> attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern ourselves
> with when and how danger will strike.
> In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious practices
> such as labels, and warnings.
> -ChadCS
> On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:53:26 PM UTC-7, Tim Gerrits wrote:
>> I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the
>> lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around, but
>> a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen people
>> look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also
>> seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up to
>> this task?
>> Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the tools
>> I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative
>> opportunity for whoever makes them.
>> Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently have
>> in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a substitute
>> for watching out for your fellow hacker.
>> Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so I
>> would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have a
>> pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share
>> knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being
>> afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
>> Tim
>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:21 PM, krikorik wrote:
>> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety
>> practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases mixed
>> storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on... I
>> know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for
>> the space.
>> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
>>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
>>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gregorio
> But I would like to make clear that one of the MAJOR contributing factors
> to Heatsync's success as a hackerspace (and we are one of the best
> hackerspaces in the country) is our bottom-up management approach.
> Making the lab a safe place isn't the responsibility of the board, it's the
> responsibility of the responsible people who are responsibly using the
> facility and its tools.
> If you see chemicals being stored in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR
> responsibility to remedy this. If you see somebody using a tool in an
> unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to educate them on why.
> The understanding that you should be concerned for your own safety is
> important. Don't walk up to something and assume that its safe, that is
> how you get hurt. Be present in what you're doing, and make SURE that what
> you're doing is safe.
> Anybody who has taken a gun safety course knows that every gun should
> always be treated as if it is loaded, and everybody who has ever taken a
> shop safety class knows that every saw should be treated as if it is
> running until you unplug it from the wall.
> If there is anything that we can do to increase the safety of the lab, it
> is to drive this point home: safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.
> -Ryan
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Chad Stearns <chadstear...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.
>> The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest
>> attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern
>> ourselves
>> with when and how danger will strike.
>> In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious practices
>> such as labels, and warnings.
>> -ChadCS
>> On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:53:26 PM UTC-7, Tim Gerrits wrote:
>>> I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the
>>> lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around,
>>> but
>>> a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen people
>>> look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also
>>> seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up to
>>> this task?
>>> Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the tools
>>> I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative
>>> opportunity for whoever makes them.
>>> Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently have
>>> in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a
>>> substitute
>>> for watching out for your fellow hacker.
>>> Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so I
>>> would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have
>>> a
>>> pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share
>>> knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being
>>> afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
>>> Tim
>>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:21 PM, krikorik wrote:
>>> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety
>>> practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases
>>> mixed
>>> storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on...
>>> I
>>> know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority for
>>> the space.
>>> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
>>>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
>>>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Gregorio
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jasper Nance <nebarot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> unfortunately that doesn't hold up to legal scrutiny...
> On 10/8/12, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree with Tim and Chad here.
> > But I would like to make clear that one of the MAJOR contributing factors
> > to Heatsync's success as a hackerspace (and we are one of the best
> > hackerspaces in the country) is our bottom-up management approach.
> > Making the lab a safe place isn't the responsibility of the board, it's
> the
> > responsibility of the responsible people who are responsibly using the
> > facility and its tools.
> > If you see chemicals being stored in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR
> > responsibility to remedy this. If you see somebody using a tool in an
> > unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to educate them on why.
> > The understanding that you should be concerned for your own safety is
> > important. Don't walk up to something and assume that its safe, that is
> > how you get hurt. Be present in what you're doing, and make SURE that
> what
> > you're doing is safe.
> > Anybody who has taken a gun safety course knows that every gun should
> > always be treated as if it is loaded, and everybody who has ever taken a
> > shop safety class knows that every saw should be treated as if it is
> > running until you unplug it from the wall.
> > If there is anything that we can do to increase the safety of the lab, it
> > is to drive this point home: safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.
> > -Ryan
> > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Chad Stearns <chadstear...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.
> >> The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest
> >> attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern
> >> ourselves
> >> with when and how danger will strike.
> >> In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious
> practices
> >> such as labels, and warnings.
> >> -ChadCS
> >> On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:53:26 PM UTC-7, Tim Gerrits wrote:
> >>> I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in the
> >>> lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around,
> >>> but
> >>> a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen
> people
> >>> look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling also
> >>> seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up
> to
> >>> this task?
> >>> Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the
> tools
> >>> I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative
> >>> opportunity for whoever makes them.
> >>> Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently
> have
> >>> in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a
> >>> substitute
> >>> for watching out for your fellow hacker.
> >>> Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so
> I
> >>> would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we have
> >>> a
> >>> pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share
> >>> knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone being
> >>> afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
> >>> Tim
> >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:21 PM, krikorik wrote:
> >>> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety
> >>> practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases
> >>> mixed
> >>> storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so on...
> >>> I
> >>> know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority
> for
> >>> the space.
> >>> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
> >>>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
> >>>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi
> >>>>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space.
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Gregorio
I dont know the extent of our legal obligations, but I recognize that we do have legal obligations.
I think as a general policy, heatsync ought to promise people are safe, so long as they are merely in the space. Its when people want to do something in the space that they need to take responsibility for their own safety, hence a liability waiver.
So... whos responsibility is it to establish these boundaries of safety? Well, heatsync is managed from the bottom up, but this might be one of those things the board should regulate.
On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:44:42 PM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
> unfortunately that doesn't hold up to legal scrutiny...
> On 10/8/12, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > > I agree with Tim and Chad here.
> > But I would like to make clear that one of the MAJOR contributing > factors > > to Heatsync's success as a hackerspace (and we are one of the best > > hackerspaces in the country) is our bottom-up management approach.
> > Making the lab a safe place isn't the responsibility of the board, it's > the > > responsibility of the responsible people who are responsibly using the > > facility and its tools.
> > If you see chemicals being stored in an unsafe manner, then it is YOUR > > responsibility to remedy this. If you see somebody using a tool in an > > unsafe manner, then it is YOUR responsibility to educate them on why.
> > The understanding that you should be concerned for your own safety is > > important. Don't walk up to something and assume that its safe, that is > > how you get hurt. Be present in what you're doing, and make SURE that > what > > you're doing is safe.
> > Anybody who has taken a gun safety course knows that every gun should > > always be treated as if it is loaded, and everybody who has ever taken a > > shop safety class knows that every saw should be treated as if it is > > running until you unplug it from the wall.
> > If there is anything that we can do to increase the safety of the lab, > it > > is to drive this point home: safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.
> > -Ryan
> > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Chad Stearns <chadst...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
> > wrote:
> >> I think I agree with Tim in some of his sentiment.
> >> The nature of the hackerspace environment is dangerous. The safest > >> attitude we can have is to expect danger, so that we will concern > >> ourselves > >> with when and how danger will strike.
> >> In general, I think personal responsibility is key, and obvious > practices > >> such as labels, and warnings.
> >> -ChadCS
> >> On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:53:26 PM UTC-7, Tim Gerrits wrote:
> >>> I like the idea of an MSDS binder for the chemicals we work with in > the > >>> lab, that's fairly standard shop practice. We have some sheets around, > >>> but > >>> a central binder would be a good idea. In the past I've just seen > people > >>> look it up on the internet as needed. Hazardous materials labeling > also > >>> seems like a good idea on the gas canisters, etc. Does anyone feel up > to > >>> this task?
> >>> Some creative, useful, and comical warning stickers on some of the > tools > >>> I think would be memorable and salient, while providing a creative > >>> opportunity for whoever makes them.
> >>> Instructional videos remove the human interaction that we currently > have > >>> in our certification / ad hoc model, and I fear might become a > >>> substitute > >>> for watching out for your fellow hacker.
> >>> Also, as hackers we almost by definition use tools inappropriately, so > I > >>> would hate to see anything more formal become codified. I think we > have > >>> a > >>> pretty good safety record because we look out for each other and share > >>> knowledge and experience openly. I have a greater fear of someone > being > >>> afraid to use a tool at all than hurting themselves on it.
> >>> Tim
> >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:21 PM, krikorik wrote:
> >>> Sure, I mean electrical, chemical, mechanical, radiation, fire safety > >>> practices and standards. i.e. for chemicals prevent acids and bases > >>> mixed > >>> storage, working on a ventilated area, having MSDS sheets, and so > on... > >>> I > >>> know it may not be very exciting but I think it should be a priority > for > >>> the space.
> >>> On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:51:47 AM UTC-7, Nebarnix wrote:
> >>>> What do you mean promote a safer space? Can you be more specific?
> >>>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM, krikorik <krik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi > >>>>> I'd like to listen to nominees ideas to promote a safer space. > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Gregorio
OMG yes. There were some people in the space last Friday who were not
at all sober and were scaring me. I was very close to asking them to
leave the space but then they left on their own accord. I just hope
they didn't drive.
On 10/8/12, Nate Caine <nateca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered a
>> safety issue.
> OMG yes. There were some people in the space last Friday who were not
> at all sober and were scaring me. I was very close to asking them to
> leave the space but then they left on their own accord. I just hope
> they didn't drive.
> On 10/8/12, Nate Caine <nateca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered a
>>> safety issue.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Jasper Nance <nebarot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> by scaring I just mean they were rowdy and slightly rough housing
> which in our cramped space is asking for a head wound.
> On 10/8/12, Jasper Nance <nebarot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > OMG yes. There were some people in the space last Friday who were not
> > at all sober and were scaring me. I was very close to asking them to
> > leave the space but then they left on their own accord. I just hope
> > they didn't drive.
> > On 10/8/12, Nate Caine <nateca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered
> a
> >>> safety issue.
Safety is something probably better handled in the bottom up fashion. I really think some signs thoughtfully and concisely pointing out best practices for tool use and general behavior would go a long way. People will feel more empowered to act if they better understand how things are supposed to work, and whose responsibility it is to make it happen (that is, everyone).
For example, a sign on or near each trashcan could spell out "if full, please empty out in the large bin in the back, and pit in a new liner, which can be found on the shelves in the back ". Then everyone knows and is reminded each time they throw things away exactly what to do, instead of defaulting to normal assumptions like "the janitor will get it".
To Ben - It is my understanding all board members are covered for "errors
and omissions" by Heatsync.
I have thought through the "What happens in coming years" and we are going
to need a legal opinion on that. It is my hope that the board will be
allowed to transfer ownership of the videos to the new board with a
disclaimer stating HeatSync's board takes ownership of the video and is
responsible for it's contents.
Yes, safety is everyone's responsibility. But the reality is they won't sue
everybody, they will sue the board members. The board is legally liable
which is why we are paying for 'Errors and Omissions' coverage. I would
hate to see HeatSync shut its doors because we were sued into
non-existence. Cell Cubby already threatened it, and if you followed that
thread last year he probably had a case. We can take a risk our board will
be spending their time in court or we can cover our bases and spend our
time growing the space.
I also don't want anyone to get hurt in the space because we are afraid
of stifling creativity. We can have both. Ultimately we all take a risk
working with tools at home or at HeatSync, the court recognizes that as
'reasonable precautions'. We should do everything we can to prevent
injuries without being oppressive.
For Tim. Yes, I agree people could use the video's to be less social. But
every time someone has to teach someone else basic tool use they are taken
away from their own project. Some us enjoy teaching and come into the space
to teach, some don't. The videos fill the times no qualified teacher is
available. Basic tool use and tool safety are two separate issues. I
approached Austin about doing a general safety class for the space, but
without errors and omissions he is in a bad place legally. After the
election there will be a proposal to expand the insurance to cover whoever
ends up doing safety.
A note about minors. You can't legally enforce a liability waiver on a
minor. If the rumors are true we had a 16 year old sign a waiver, and we
have had 15 year old's welding in flip flops without adult supervision. I
don't want to see anyone's child hurt, and I don't think anyone else does
either. Our current process is allowing this kind of thing to happen.
I am really not sure how other hackerspaces are doing it, this is new
ground for me. I attended a legal seminar on forming Hackerspaces at Defcon
one year and there were a list of suggestions. It went something like:
1) Don't pay your board members, it increases their liability.
2) Get legally binding injury waivers that will stand up in court.
3) Develop a safety plan, and follow it. Talk safety often.
4) Insurance is your last line of defense. If someone loses a hand and it
is shown to be negligence, the board is personally liable.
> by scaring I just mean they were rowdy and slightly rough housing
> which in our cramped space is asking for a head wound.
> On 10/8/12, Jasper Nance <nebarot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > OMG yes. There were some people in the space last Friday who were not
> > at all sober and were scaring me. I was very close to asking them to
> > leave the space but then they left on their own accord. I just hope
> > they didn't drive.
> > On 10/8/12, Nate Caine <nateca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> How drunk does somebody have to be at the hackerspace to be considered
> a
> >>> safety issue.
Guys, c'mon...training videos? Are we being serious? Those aren't our
values...if somebody wants to see how to safely use a tool, the "heatsync
way" would be taking a few minutes to personally show them how to use it
properly.
How many of you had had to watch training videos at work? Was
it...like...almost torture? I don't want to put any new member through
watching a bunch of videos orientation videos, and if that means that I
have to personally hold their hand through learning to use a tool, I will,
and I'm sure the rest of the core members here, the people who are at the
lab every day, and the people who have personally taught ME how to use the
tools, will too.
"Make a bunch of training videos" feels a whole lot like "make it so I
don't have to talk to people" to me, and that is so much the opposite of
what heatsync is about.
Would these things be a cool piece of put on our youtube account? Yeah,
probably, putting new information into the internet is good, but when we're
talking about ownership transition procedures and soforth for the Heatsync
Orientation materials?
C'mon...
Okay, and some directness:
Brian, the ONLY THING that is going to prevent 16 year olds from welding in
flip flops is making sure that everybody in the space knows that YOU DON'T
FRAKING WELD IN FLIP FLOPS! And if ANYBODY sees ANYBODY ELSE doing that,
they have the power to step in and tell them to stop.
This conversation feels like it's really headed in a gross direction. We
don't need to have lots of waivers and orientation and checklists and stamp
cards and paperwork, we need to have lots of people Building Cool Shit
(tm), and we need to have them doing it safely. Doing it safely means
empowering people full stop.
Waivers don't keep people safe, they keep us safe from litigation. That
wasn't the original question, and is a different matter entirely.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Brian Aday <projecti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To Ben - It is my understanding all board members are covered for "errors
> and omissions" by Heatsync.
> I have thought through the "What happens in coming years" and we are going
> to need a legal opinion on that. It is my hope that the board will be
> allowed to transfer ownership of the videos to the new board with a
> disclaimer stating HeatSync's board takes ownership of the video and is
> responsible for it's contents.
> Yes, safety is everyone's responsibility. But the reality is they won't
> sue everybody, they will sue the board members. The board is legally liable
> which is why we are paying for 'Errors and Omissions' coverage. I would
> hate to see HeatSync shut its doors because we were sued into
> non-existence. Cell Cubby already threatened it, and if you followed that
> thread last year he probably had a case. We can take a risk our board will
> be spending their time in court or we can cover our bases and spend our
> time growing the space.
> I also don't want anyone to get hurt in the space because we are afraid
> of stifling creativity. We can have both. Ultimately we all take a risk
> working with tools at home or at HeatSync, the court recognizes that as
> 'reasonable precautions'. We should do everything we can to prevent
> injuries without being oppressive.
> For Tim. Yes, I agree people could use the video's to be less social. But
> every time someone has to teach someone else basic tool use they are taken
> away from their own project. Some us enjoy teaching and come into the space
> to teach, some don't. The videos fill the times no qualified teacher is
> available. Basic tool use and tool safety are two separate issues. I
> approached Austin about doing a general safety class for the space, but
> without errors and omissions he is in a bad place legally. After the
> election there will be a proposal to expand the insurance to cover whoever
> ends up doing safety.
> A note about minors. You can't legally enforce a liability waiver on a
> minor. If the rumors are true we had a 16 year old sign a waiver, and we
> have had 15 year old's welding in flip flops without adult supervision. I
> don't want to see anyone's child hurt, and I don't think anyone else does
> either. Our current process is allowing this kind of thing to happen.
> I am really not sure how other hackerspaces are doing it, this is new
> ground for me. I attended a legal seminar on forming Hackerspaces at Defcon
> one year and there were a list of suggestions. It went something like:
> 1) Don't pay your board members, it increases their liability.
> 2) Get legally binding injury waivers that will stand up in court.
> 3) Develop a safety plan, and follow it. Talk safety often.
> 4) Insurance is your last line of defense. If someone loses a hand and it
> is shown to be negligence, the board is personally liable.
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moogli...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?
Ryan, you are assuming everyone learns like you do (they don't). I use
video as my primary method of gaining new knowledge. You are also
misunderstanding the purpose of video, *they aren't for orientation*. My
suggestion is we use them for basic tool use. The videos are a long
standing request from a couple of our members who didn't grow up using
tools like you and I did. They approached me with the idea because they
were reluctant to ask for help and impose on someone else's project time.
Basically they were looking for some way to learn while being polite, I
couldn't fault them for that.
Okay, I am going to let the cat out of the bag. I was there for the flip
flop incident. I approached the kid, told him to stop and he played it off
as a joke and continued. His father wasn't in the space, the person who was
supposed to be supervising him wasn't supervising him. He finished up while
I was trying to find his sponsor. Before I noticed the safety violation I
watched three or four people walk past him without saying a word. You are
comfortable with confrontation, most people aren't. Are you going to lay
hands on someone else's kid to stop them? I would prefer no member be put
in that position. True, ultimately each member has a responsibility to keep
themselves safe, but when accidents happens liability becomes a legal
matter. We can follow common practice or bury our heads in the sand.
I have had my say, I defer to the will of the community. :)
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys, c'mon...training videos? Are we being serious? Those aren't our
> values...if somebody wants to see how to safely use a tool, the "heatsync
> way" would be taking a few minutes to personally show them how to use it
> properly.
> How many of you had had to watch training videos at work? Was
> it...like...almost torture? I don't want to put any new member through
> watching a bunch of videos orientation videos, and if that means that I
> have to personally hold their hand through learning to use a tool, I will,
> and I'm sure the rest of the core members here, the people who are at the
> lab every day, and the people who have personally taught ME how to use the
> tools, will too.
> "Make a bunch of training videos" feels a whole lot like "make it so I
> don't have to talk to people" to me, and that is so much the opposite of
> what heatsync is about.
> Would these things be a cool piece of put on our youtube account? Yeah,
> probably, putting new information into the internet is good, but when we're
> talking about ownership transition procedures and soforth for the Heatsync
> Orientation materials?
> C'mon...
> Okay, and some directness:
> Brian, the ONLY THING that is going to prevent 16 year olds from welding
> in flip flops is making sure that everybody in the space knows that YOU
> DON'T FRAKING WELD IN FLIP FLOPS! And if ANYBODY sees ANYBODY ELSE doing
> that, they have the power to step in and tell them to stop.
> This conversation feels like it's really headed in a gross direction. We
> don't need to have lots of waivers and orientation and checklists and stamp
> cards and paperwork, we need to have lots of people Building Cool Shit
> (tm), and we need to have them doing it safely. Doing it safely means
> empowering people full stop.
> Waivers don't keep people safe, they keep us safe from litigation. That
> wasn't the original question, and is a different matter entirely.
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Brian Aday <projecti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> To Ben - It is my understanding all board members are covered for "errors
>> and omissions" by Heatsync.
>> I have thought through the "What happens in coming years" and we are
>> going to need a legal opinion on that. It is my hope that the board will be
>> allowed to transfer ownership of the videos to the new board with a
>> disclaimer stating HeatSync's board takes ownership of the video and is
>> responsible for it's contents.
>> Yes, safety is everyone's responsibility. But the reality is they won't
>> sue everybody, they will sue the board members. The board is legally liable
>> which is why we are paying for 'Errors and Omissions' coverage. I would
>> hate to see HeatSync shut its doors because we were sued into
>> non-existence. Cell Cubby already threatened it, and if you followed that
>> thread last year he probably had a case. We can take a risk our board will
>> be spending their time in court or we can cover our bases and spend our
>> time growing the space.
>> I also don't want anyone to get hurt in the space because we are afraid
>> of stifling creativity. We can have both. Ultimately we all take a risk
>> working with tools at home or at HeatSync, the court recognizes that as
>> 'reasonable precautions'. We should do everything we can to prevent
>> injuries without being oppressive.
>> For Tim. Yes, I agree people could use the video's to be less social.
>> But every time someone has to teach someone else basic tool use they are
>> taken away from their own project. Some us enjoy teaching and come into the
>> space to teach, some don't. The videos fill the times no qualified teacher
>> is available. Basic tool use and tool safety are two separate issues. I
>> approached Austin about doing a general safety class for the space, but
>> without errors and omissions he is in a bad place legally. After the
>> election there will be a proposal to expand the insurance to cover whoever
>> ends up doing safety.
>> A note about minors. You can't legally enforce a liability waiver on a
>> minor. If the rumors are true we had a 16 year old sign a waiver, and we
>> have had 15 year old's welding in flip flops without adult supervision. I
>> don't want to see anyone's child hurt, and I don't think anyone else does
>> either. Our current process is allowing this kind of thing to happen.
>> I am really not sure how other hackerspaces are doing it, this is new
>> ground for me. I attended a legal seminar on forming Hackerspaces at Defcon
>> one year and there were a list of suggestions. It went something like:
>> 1) Don't pay your board members, it increases their liability.
>> 2) Get legally binding injury waivers that will stand up in court.
>> 3) Develop a safety plan, and follow it. Talk safety often.
>> 4) Insurance is your last line of defense. If someone loses a hand and it
>> is shown to be negligence, the board is personally liable.
>> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ben Humpherys <moogli...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> How does electing Austin specifically get us more insurance?
