Its been a year and we haven't had anyone take over the wood shop area. Nor
has it been used that much. If youve come in last week youll have noticed
the CNC and Metal shop has pushed out into that space.

Also the odd little table that was in the wood shop has been placed
outside, so we finally have an outside table (albeit a rickety one)!

Were at a point now where were having trouble finding room for the radial
arm saw and possibly even the wood band saw.

I want to start a discussion about that, and also provide my
recommendation, which is to push to move all wood work outside.

Wood tools are extremely mobile these days and I think we could swap out
our existing radial (which is making it hard to walk in back, let alone
safely cut) for a mobile table or miter saw (your pick)

Random links to convey style, not price or brand preference

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?sto...

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Saws/h_d1/N-5yc1v...

I am a brand new member but I think remarkable things could be done to
better situate the shop (I do woodworking).  But I agree, the RAS is not
good and shouldn't be there (if anywhere) but I would be sad to see wood
shop capabilities disappear.

Michael

Has a shopsmith been considered? We could have a lot of the tools a
woodworking shop would need. Not all of them of course, and no all in 1
tool can ever be as good as good separate tools can. But I used to have a
woodshop in my basement, and I know how much area separate tools need -- a
lot!

Jerry

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Michael Mathers
<michael.math...@gmail.com>wrote:

Recursion: (noun):
      see: Recursion

If I was stranded on a desert island and had to choose a non-hand power
saw, I'd choose a table saw. Bandsaws are safer, but quite limited. We do
have a handheld circular saw ("Skilsaw") which combined with an outdoor
bench is quite versatile.

Here's currently what we've got, wood-wise, off the top of my head (links
are to our internal tool database):

- Radial arm saw <http://toolshare.heatsynclabs.org/equipments/268>
- Wood bandsaw <http://toolshare.heatsynclabs.org/equipments/269>
- Metal bandsaw <http://toolshare.heatsynclabs.org/equipments/265> (could
swap blades? suboptimal)
- Combo stationary belt/circular sander (unused)
- Table saw (unused?)
- Skilsaw <http://toolshare.heatsynclabs.org/equipments/73> (handheld
circular)
- Handheld sander (rarely used)

In the current configuration, the radial is a definite candidate for
selling. It's more precise than a bandsaw, but I've heard it's more
dangerous and less versatile than a table saw (can a woodworker confirm?)

The table saw and the stationary sander have never been properly set up for
use.

The wood bandsaw doesn't take up too much space, but if we got rid of it
we'd be left with only a Skilsaw or metal bandsaw for wood cutting which
seems suboptimal. I like the low-power, low-noise nature of bandsaws
compared to table saws, though their precision isn't the best.

What really matters, though, is what members use the space for. I bought a
small power sander for the lab years ago and I've never seen it used. What
kind of stuff do you make and what tools do you care about?

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jacob Rosenthal <jakerosent...@gmail.com>wrote:

I asked my dad about the radial-arm saw vs table saw thing. He said the two
simply perform different functions, with the radial arm saw being a little
more specialized. A table saw can do pretty much everything, but a radial
arm saw works better when doing many short cuts, like with 2x4 planks.
Nether one is inherently more dangerous. They will both eat a finger quite
readily.

I also recall seeing the blade on that table saw exposed. That blade can be
adjusted, and should be fully retracted when not in use. Someone in an
earlier thread expressed concern that a table saw blade was 'hidden'. This
isn't generally a concern because the very top of the blade should be
visible above the top of the wood being cut. Safety-wise, I think they
are comparable, personally. They can both be misused, and are
both capable of doing serious damage.

I know a lot of machinists, a few have pieces of fingers missing.  In all
cases, the body parts were lost on woodworking equipment, not metalworking.
 The blade speeds and coarseness of the cutters make them extremely
unforgiving.

cheers,
c

In my opinion, the trouble with the wood shop is that we haven't got
someone or somewhere to be exposed to all the possibilities that exist with
woodworking. And I don't think we have sufficient 'serious' woodworking
tools to be able to attract someone who is really into woodworking who
could show us the potential. And without some passionate woodworkers, it
would be difficult to justify the expense of something like a shopsmith, or
more specialized woodworking tools like a wood lathe or planer. But if all
we have is the basic tools that any amateur woodworker would have, what
would the incentive be to use the ones at hsl?

Our current stock of woodworking tools is probably insufficient to attract
the sort of passionate people who would take charge and turn the wood shop
into something great. With space being at a premium, its not really
possible to make the needed investment into woodworking.

Indeed. Counter point, wood is a great prototyping and construction
material; plywood on the laser is quite popular and inexpensive. I think we
need at least one relatively-safe wood saw ready-to-go in order to have a
well-functioning lab, if only to rough in large pieces of stock.

I haven't looked at the radial arm saw too much. But unless the head on the
radial arm saw can swivel 90 degrees you can't rip longer pieces, so a
table saw is a must. But not having a serious wood shop, it probably
wouldn't make any difference anyway.

Ben said : "But if all we have is the basic tools that
any amateur woodworker would have, what would the incentive be to use the
ones at hsl?". I would like to answer that. SPACE. I had a basement full of
woodworking tools when I lived elsewhere, now all the space I have is for a
skill saw and a portable drill. If hsl had the tools I would use them. The
other is the EXPENSE. Any serious project requires serious tools. And
serious tools cost serious money. So unless we get a endowment or
something. I don't really see it happening anytime soon.

jerry

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Will Bradley <bradley.w...@gmail.com>wrote:

Recursion: (noun):
      see: Recursion

(1) It would have made more sense to post this discussion *before*
rearranging the shop than afterwards.  This isn't so much asking for input
as it is announcing the result.

(2) During better weather, using the outback makes sense.  However we are
now entering the colder and perhaps wetter season.  My concerns
around using portable woodworking equipment outside is mostly about those
back stairs.  Nothing much could be easily rolled outside as would be the
case with a level floor.  People more likely to hurt themselves or
damage/drop equipment.

(3) Previously it was proposed to have modular shop equipement that one
could set up to accomplish a given tasks.  (Table saw, router, drill press,
sanders, etc.)    In my opinion that doesn't works for HeatSync.  A *home*
shop where workspace is at a preminum would allow a *single* user to set
up, work, clean up and then store the equipment away.  At HeatSync you have
*many* users often using the same area at the same time.  I think the
equipment needs to be set up and ready to use at all time.  Then the user
needs only to do some clean up and put the tools away.  (No moving
equipment, laying out power cords, etc.)  

    Image drilling a hole under both scenarios.  

    (a) Put the drill in the chuck.  Drill the hole.  Remove the bit.  
Clean up.  

    versus

    (b) Wheel out the drill press.  Pull it up the staris.  Find some power
cords.  See if any outlets are available.  THEN you actually can drill a
hole.  Oh, and when you are done, cart the thing back down the stairs.  
Bundle up the power cords, etc.  Optionally,  render first aid to those who
tripped over things.

I agree with nate. Moving equipment outside every time someone wants to use it isn't a very good solution. It puts up another small barrier between someone and the completion of their project. It would still require storage inside, unless we have some lockable outside storage.

I would really hate to reduce our woodworking capabilities though. Actually, building speaker cabinets is on my list of projects I want to undertake sometime.

I propose the space underneath the table we put under the tool board be reserved for woodworking tools. We discard the floor standing tools like the radial arm saw, band saw, and sander in favor of more compact ones that can be stored under the tables until someone is ready to use them. That should save space but still keep them easily accessible.  Just pull the desired tool out and set it on a table.

We have a small table saw already. We could ditch the radial arm saw for a miter saw. Smaller band saws exist. So do sanding machines just like the one sitting in disrepair right now. We have several other smaller woodworking tools buried under the other table.

If we find another place for the kitchen stuff, that space could store more tools. Or maybe even another table. That would give us more precious work space to boot.

We should also get rid of redundant tools. There is a second drill press sitting unused and taking up space under a table, for example.

The dust generated by woodworking has never been addressed.  Pretty soon
you're going to have sawdust mixed in with the rest of the mess (metal
shavings and cutting oil).

And I still don't agree with the idea of storing equipement and then having
to set it up.

That may work for special use stuff like the foam hot-knife cutter, or coil
winding machine sotred under the nuts-n-bolts workbench out front.

But I don't think it works for drill presses, saws, sanders.  It's just too
much to set up and break down each time.

yeah. dust gets into everything. even with a dust collection system.
a woodworking shop would be better if it were dedicated. for instance.

if we really wanted a woodworking shop, it would actually be better if
there were 2 different areas. say the one where we are now (140 W) and
another one nearby that would be for woodworking. that way the dust from
woodwork shop would not contaminate the machine shop.

I am not saying that this would be something we should necessarily do, but
it would be something to look at, if we really wanted to bring this up a
notch.

jerry

Recursion: (noun):
      see: Recursion

What was it- one week ago when we were discussing how often people stall
the RAS.  When I was in on Friday for the welding class, sure enough, first
attempt of someone to use the saw he didn't control it and it stalled.  So
I spent a couple minutes showing him how to use it right and then some of
the other students in the class noticed the blade wasn't aligned right.  We
spent some time trying to figure out whether the stop was worn or just
misadjusted.  Without taking it apart, we weren't able to adjust the stop,
so we set it as best we could.

Especially with the recent addition of the CNC, I think our current space
is growing away from woodworking.   If we get a larger space, we could look
at it then.

One other consideration is that woodshops are reasonably common in private
garages, while metalworking shops are less so.  Combine that with the
availability of effective portable tools, and the combination probably
explains the lack of drive in the woodshop.

Personally, I have a reasonably complete woodshop in my garage - that I've
offered for other members to use on numerous occasions.  So while the lab
doesn't have a woodshop, it's about like the casting- there's an option
available.

A proper space with ample room for really nice woodworking tools and a
sawdust collection system would be *freaking awesome*. If that could be
done, we should do it.

But without the space and power to go all out, anything else will be at
least somewhat sub-optimal. Given the constraints of our current area, I
think going for smaller tools that can be stored under the tables is the
best option to save space without sacrificing capability. Take the broken
sander, for example. This craftsman<http://www.sears.com/craftsman-3-4-hp-6inch-x-9inch-belt-disc-sander-...> has
the exact same size sanding belts and disc (near as i can tell). The
difference is just that the craftsman doesn't have a floor-stand, just feet
to be set on a table. The only setup would be hefting it from the floor to
the table, plugging it in, and flipping a switch. It's not fantastic, but I
think it could work if we keep them from being buried in other crap.

As for sawdust, more and more wood tools are coming with their own bags for
collecting the sawdust. Beyond that, though, people would just have to
vacuum it with the shop vac. I don't think it would be a big issue,
but that's not a guarantee that it couldn't become an issue.

 This miter saw<http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921236000P?sid=IDx01192011...> would
probably serve as a good replacement for the radial arm saw for most of the
cutting people probably do, but wouldn't need to be in everyone's way all
the time. Hopefully it would be more intuitive to use for
the inexperienced. I am honestly perplexed as to how people look at that
radial arm saw and think you pull it outwards when cutting instead of
pushing in. The shape of the blade shield is clearly designed to lift up
over the woof when it is pushed forwards.................

And its very possible the CNC machine could revive woodworking somewhat.
Wood is far cheaper and easier to machine than any metal, so it would make
a good candidate for many projects on the machine, especially for practice.

Only reason I wouldn't want a miter saw is that you're limited to
cross-cuts, any cut longer than 10 inches has to be done on something else
(and despite having the Skilsaw for years, I've never seen anyone use it.)
Good points though. As long as we have some way to cut a 2x4 within ~1
minute of walking in the space, I think our basics are covered.

The reason a RAS is sometimes considered more dangerous is can "climb" the
wood (ie, come towards you).  If your finger/hand is in the path of the saw
that's a problem, although I contest that's a problem no matter what saw
you use.  I _never_ have my hands in the path of the saw.  On the other
hand, a tablesaw can throw the wood at you if it gets pinched.  In fact if
a tablesaw was out of alignment the way the RAS was a few days ago it very
might be throwing wood right now. :-)

Tablesaws you be run with the blade-guard on almost all the time.  There is
rarely a legitimate need to take it off.  My suggestion is to make sure we
get a tablesaw (assuming we even have a tablesaw) where the blade guard is *
easily* removed and put on.  If it is difficult to remove and replace it
will be removed and stay removed.

I agree with Ben H. regarding the types of tools.  The bandsaw is nice but
you can't do serious work without a way to joint boards.  Nor could serious
work without some manner of dust control.  But you can't attract serious
work without (in my opinion) a decent tablesaw (not a skilsaw), jointer,
and face planer.  

Space idea:  I know I'm just a noob to HSL and have no history here yet so
if my idea is dumb.  Please politely excuse me. :-)  I'm sure there are
many valuable and interesting things in the roughly 400 sq ft on the second
floor.  But is it really so valuable that the space couldn't be better used
than "junk" storage?  A $50/mo storage locker would essentially allow that
space to be completely used as SPACE.  If you think about the cost of
rent/sq ft.  That's a pretty cheap upgrade to the space.  Would it be a bit
inconvenient for the "useful junk" ?  Maybe.  But for the possibility of a
real wood shop it sounds enticing to me.  It would keep dust out of the
machine shop area, probably help with the sound issues from wood tools
(btw, decent table saws use induction motors instead of universal motors
which are much louder).  Just a crazy idea.

Michael Mathers

One thing to consider is that the woodworking tools are more approachable
than a CNC mill.  I can walk in the back, turn on a saw, and cut down some
wood.

I cannot do the same thing with a CNC Mill, I need to get certified on it
first, and if the classes for the mill end up being anything like the
classes for the laser/welder/lathes/mills/etc, there could be a LONG time
that members can't use the tools in a large part of our lab.

(That isn't meant as a critique of the people running those classes, by the
way.  It's a scaling problem.  We don't have enough members to support a
regularly scheduled class for those tools, so the classes happen when
enough people get together and ask for them).

To me, disappearing the woodshop and replacing it with an area for CNC
milling means that the lab has gotten a lot smaller.  That's a whole bunch
of space that I now can't use until a class forms, and I take it.

Personally, and I'm biased, because I have used that space for exactly this
purpose, I would have loved to see the area where the "woodshop" was
transform into a "large projects" workspace.  Right now, we don't really
have any places to build big things.

Again, I want to reiterate that I love that we now have a CNC mill, and I
can't wait to get into a class for it, but also wanted to offer up some
personal thoughts on "losing" that space back there.

To the original question: what is the possibility of turning our "loading
zone" parking spot into an outdoor project space?  Now that the weather has
gotten sane, working outdoors is feasible.  Is putting a fenced-in "cage"
that has a lock on it possible?  (Or even desirable?)

Also if the question comes down to "what should we ditch the RAS for?" my
answer is: portable table saw and miter saw.  (Although I'd probably want
to build infeed/outfeed tables for the table saw)

-Ryan

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Michael Mathers
<michael.math...@gmail.com>wrote:

I love working with wood. Like many posts have mentioned it is less
expensive, flexible, and super usable to prototype with. One big draw back
is the dust. I have worked with a couple different dust collection methods,
and though most seem to catch a majority of the dust generated, there is
always some left over the needs sweeping up. And once in the air, it does
tend to float around before it lands. Having the wood and metal stuff right
next to each other I think is a recipe for frustration.

I am doing a bit of a refactor on my home right now, and the dust from the
table saw, chop saw, and skil-saw finds its way into all kinds of corners,
even with me sweeping up after each use. The ability to open the garage
door and let get some air flow while working seems to help a lot. But me
keeping that in one area, that is closed off from the rest of the house
also helps keep that dust from filling my cereal bowl in the morning.

Additionally wood projects tend to be bigger, and need time to dry, and
take more than an evening to complete. The space needed to make some really
cool stuff is just more than what we have right now.

Things that we do are messy, and that mess is awesome! But sometimes we
need to contain the mess so that others can also make messes. To really get
some serious wood work going, I agree that there needs to be a dedicated
space that is contained. It is dangerous enough to be using those tools,
without people walking by with out safety glasses(possibly getting injured
themselves), and bumping into someone working on a project (possibly
causing a safety issue for someone else or messing up their project). And I
do hear more about people loosing fingers in wood working than other things
available at HSL.

Kinda funny that we require a whole certification class for the
slow-spinning machines and not the fast-spinning machines, now that I think
about it. Maybe saws are just more common than lathes, so people are
already used to them...

Michael, what are you suggesting to do with upstairs? Make it a member
storage area, or a wood area? We can't have people staying upstairs too
much, since there's only one fire exit. (Code requires two. Maybe we can
add a rope ladder?)
On Nov 12, 2012 9:40 AM, "Michael Mathers" <michael.math...@gmail.com>
wrote:

One question, how many mills do we actually need? The space isn't large
enough to support more than one or two people working at a time. I am all
for having a metal shop, it is an important capability for the community to
have. But the reality is the space is barely used. We can discuss the
reasons for that, but the fact is undeniable. Our new mill was an upgrade,
and a good one. Why are we holding on to redundant machines that aren't
being used?

What happened to the idea of moving the kitchen up front? No one is using
that space, likely because it is filthy. If someone doesn't like the
aesthetics of having a kitchen up front, why don't we put it all in a
cabinet? People do their eating and drinking upfront, that's where the
stuff should be also.

+1 to Ryan's point, there are lower barriers to entry into woodworking.
There are many more things that have been built at Heatsync using wood than
metal.

I'm wondering about the perception that a table saw is safer than a mini
lathe is safer than the full-size lathe. Can anyone more experienced
comment on that? Currently we train people on the mini equipment first,
then the big equipment, meaning the daily usage per metal tool is somewhat
low.
On Nov 12, 2012 11:46 AM, "Brian Aday" <projecti...@gmail.com> wrote:

I actually think the metal shop gets used more than people realize. Several
people come during the day to work on the big lathe as I often find it
plugged in and the compound set at an angle. Multiple times a week in fact.

I just think that the people who use it do so most often in he day and are
very good at cleaning up after themselves.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Will Bradley <bradley.w...@gmail.com>wrote:

i don't think this is a matter of metal vs woodworking.
this should not degernerate into my space gets used more than yours type of
discussion.

the laser has a lot of down time too. but should we say that maybe we need
less room for the laser than something else? no, I think not.

the reason that hsl is so needed is that there are tools there that we
can't (insert your reason here ....) have in our own homes.
the more good tools the better.

but the more tools we get for everyone's benefit the better.

Recursion: (noun):
      see: Recursion

...I don't really think that us discussing "how should we use the limited
space that we have" is "degenerating" into anything.

This is a valid, useful, important discussion to have.