how much help is too much?
0 views
Skip to first unread message
Shannon Stoney
Dec 1, 2009, 2:31:49 PM12/1/09
to HCCS_SE_Wri...@googlegroups.com
There's a student who comes in the writing center a lot for help. He
seems to be fairly severely handicapped mentally. He told me he has a
disability, although he doesn't say what it is. I think he might be
mildly retarded, because the disability is more than dyslexia or ADHD.
He can barely read, and even when he does read a passage, he
understands little or nothing of what he read. It's not an ESL problem;
he's a native English speaker.
Anyway, this very nice young man comes to the writing center for long
periods of time. Sometimes he has an appt, and sometimes he doesn't.
He waits until one of my appointment students leaves, and then he comes
and sits down next to me and wants me to help him...again.
Today I worked with him for the normal appt time and then suggested
that he go type up his work on one of the computers, and he did. But
later he came back and asked me if I was busy. I said that I was, even
though I was just reading. I think I did that because I felt that he
was becoming too dependent on me to help him with all his homework.
But then I sort of second-guessed myself. Maybe I should have helped
him, again? Helping him is sort of depressing and hard, because it's
two steps forward and one step back, over and over. He has trouble
remembering things, and progress is so slow. But maybe that shouldn't
be a reason not to help a student. A better reason not to help would
be if I am enabling a kind of dependence or something.
Just wondering what other people think. I'm sure other people have
worked with similar students in the WC.
--shannon
http://shannonstoney-twors.blogspot.com/
http://branguslane.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shannonstoney/
http://www.eyeballkicks.blogspot.com
http://allfiber.blogspot.com
seems to be fairly severely handicapped mentally. He told me he has a
disability, although he doesn't say what it is. I think he might be
mildly retarded, because the disability is more than dyslexia or ADHD.
He can barely read, and even when he does read a passage, he
understands little or nothing of what he read. It's not an ESL problem;
he's a native English speaker.
Anyway, this very nice young man comes to the writing center for long
periods of time. Sometimes he has an appt, and sometimes he doesn't.
He waits until one of my appointment students leaves, and then he comes
and sits down next to me and wants me to help him...again.
Today I worked with him for the normal appt time and then suggested
that he go type up his work on one of the computers, and he did. But
later he came back and asked me if I was busy. I said that I was, even
though I was just reading. I think I did that because I felt that he
was becoming too dependent on me to help him with all his homework.
But then I sort of second-guessed myself. Maybe I should have helped
him, again? Helping him is sort of depressing and hard, because it's
two steps forward and one step back, over and over. He has trouble
remembering things, and progress is so slow. But maybe that shouldn't
be a reason not to help a student. A better reason not to help would
be if I am enabling a kind of dependence or something.
Just wondering what other people think. I'm sure other people have
worked with similar students in the WC.
--shannon
http://shannonstoney-twors.blogspot.com/
http://branguslane.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shannonstoney/
http://www.eyeballkicks.blogspot.com
http://allfiber.blogspot.com
rlunday
Dec 1, 2009, 2:52:26 PM12/1/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
His does sound like a different sort of situation. I think, though,
that it is best to keep everyone to the appointment system. Perhaps in
specail cases, we can override the 60-min, or two-30-minute sessions
per week cap; but we need a way to make that consistent and orderly,
which is exactly what someone like this young man needs -- not open-
ended help, but structured help, even if we do a little more than the
usual per week.
But it is good to define other parameters as well. It would be good to
work more directly, in such a case, with a counselor, faculty mentor
(something we might have soon), or current professor. Part of the
consistency and order should be a set of goals for his reading and
writing efforts; something we can keep track of, and more importantly,
that he can keep track of.
These are initial thoughts; I'll think more...
Also, if you send me his name by regular email (for confidentiality),
I can see what information Counsling can give us.
On Dec 1, 1:31 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
that it is best to keep everyone to the appointment system. Perhaps in
specail cases, we can override the 60-min, or two-30-minute sessions
per week cap; but we need a way to make that consistent and orderly,
which is exactly what someone like this young man needs -- not open-
ended help, but structured help, even if we do a little more than the
usual per week.
But it is good to define other parameters as well. It would be good to
work more directly, in such a case, with a counselor, faculty mentor
(something we might have soon), or current professor. Part of the
consistency and order should be a set of goals for his reading and
writing efforts; something we can keep track of, and more importantly,
that he can keep track of.
These are initial thoughts; I'll think more...
Also, if you send me his name by regular email (for confidentiality),
I can see what information Counsling can give us.
On Dec 1, 1:31 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
rlunday
Dec 1, 2009, 2:53:45 PM12/1/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
Also --
It might be that we can't do everything; but since we have laura's
program, maybe she can see if he's on her rader -- someone in
Developmental, maybe already being helped or tracked...
> >http://shannonstoney-twors.blogspot.com/http://branguslane.blogspot.c...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
It might be that we can't do everything; but since we have laura's
program, maybe she can see if he's on her rader -- someone in
Developmental, maybe already being helped or tracked...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ronald Foster
Dec 2, 2009, 1:06:04 PM12/2/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
Last night, I had the privilege of helping a student who is where she probably should not be.
She seems bright and was very nice, but she does not seem to be able to construct a single sentence properly, even though she is in English 1302. We went through individual sentences trying to make sense of what she was trying to convey but had to stop at each clause. At one point, she was trying to make the verb 'learn' a noun. I pointed out that the term cannot be a noun and asked her if she knew the difference between a verb and a noun. She kind of ignored me, and so I pressed her further. We had already been going through her essay for about fifteen minutes and so were somewhat familiar with each other, but at this point the tears started flowing.
I felt so sorry for this girl. She said she had a brain tumor and could not remember everything. Later, she indicated that she knew a verb signified action, but she was still vague on the details. I tried to be as gentle as I could as we went through the rest of her piece.
She said that in 1301, she never had to do anything like this, and I asked her where she had taken 1301. "Central campus," she replied. I told her she had been done a miss-justice, and she agreed. English is her first language, by the way.
Her sentences were so scrambled that it was impossible to even discern her basic intentions. We struggled for some time to even get a few thoughts put into a comprehensive pattern.
To me, she not only does not belong in college, she really needs to go back to the seventh grade to get the basics of writing down. I'm not sure what we can do about students such as her and was wondering if anyone else had some thoughts. This young lady really does not belong in 1302. She needs very basic help.
Ron Foster C. 281-748-1994
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
She seems bright and was very nice, but she does not seem to be able to construct a single sentence properly, even though she is in English 1302. We went through individual sentences trying to make sense of what she was trying to convey but had to stop at each clause. At one point, she was trying to make the verb 'learn' a noun. I pointed out that the term cannot be a noun and asked her if she knew the difference between a verb and a noun. She kind of ignored me, and so I pressed her further. We had already been going through her essay for about fifteen minutes and so were somewhat familiar with each other, but at this point the tears started flowing.
I felt so sorry for this girl. She said she had a brain tumor and could not remember everything. Later, she indicated that she knew a verb signified action, but she was still vague on the details. I tried to be as gentle as I could as we went through the rest of her piece.
She said that in 1301, she never had to do anything like this, and I asked her where she had taken 1301. "Central campus," she replied. I told her she had been done a miss-justice, and she agreed. English is her first language, by the way.
Her sentences were so scrambled that it was impossible to even discern her basic intentions. We struggled for some time to even get a few thoughts put into a comprehensive pattern.
To me, she not only does not belong in college, she really needs to go back to the seventh grade to get the basics of writing down. I'm not sure what we can do about students such as her and was wondering if anyone else had some thoughts. This young lady really does not belong in 1302. She needs very basic help.
Ron Foster C. 281-748-1994
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
rlunday
Dec 2, 2009, 1:35:28 PM12/2/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
Just remember that we are not saving people's lives; we should care,
but we can't absorb everything and maintain our ability to help in a
focused way. I get frustrated and angry all the time at the Bigger
Problems; for me, in the end, it's social injustice, and not merely
"bad teachers" or "bad schools." So, I handle the part that I can
handle; I do my work down in the trenches, and lift up on occasion to
re-think what I'm doing.
I know it can be heart-breaking at times, trying to help students who
need so much more than what we can offer. But the best approach is to
define a manageable set of goals -- one or two at a time -- and work
on them in ways that can perhaps show small progress in the single, 30-
minute session. The purpose of our notes is to make it easier to help
students progressively, over time -- but within one semester, they
won't necessarily be where they need to be.
It's up to the professors (and the faculty overall, and the admin) to
take responsibility for assessing students properly; we can't say,
exactly, how or why she "got through" 1301, or high school, or any
other "gateway." She might have managed to pass the specific
assessments. Knowledge depends on transferability; that is partly a
matter of the student's own will and awareness. Frequently, I have
students who demonstrate knowledge and ability in one assignment, then
"unlearn" it by the next assignment, or the next course they take with
me.
So, we continue to help the student define goals (sometimes, bigger
concepts,though; not only apostrophes and word endings: learning
strategies, attitudes, "wisdom" -- why not, when it can help?) --
But this sounds like something more, in any case; you might ask, with
sufficient respect for her privacy, if she has sought help from other
sources: counseling, ADA.
Part of our protocol is to see where our ability to help ends, but
also to provide students with information on other resources;
counseling is the usual next step in some cases. That's partly because
it's their job to provide broader information resources to students.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&s...
but we can't absorb everything and maintain our ability to help in a
focused way. I get frustrated and angry all the time at the Bigger
Problems; for me, in the end, it's social injustice, and not merely
"bad teachers" or "bad schools." So, I handle the part that I can
handle; I do my work down in the trenches, and lift up on occasion to
re-think what I'm doing.
I know it can be heart-breaking at times, trying to help students who
need so much more than what we can offer. But the best approach is to
define a manageable set of goals -- one or two at a time -- and work
on them in ways that can perhaps show small progress in the single, 30-
minute session. The purpose of our notes is to make it easier to help
students progressively, over time -- but within one semester, they
won't necessarily be where they need to be.
It's up to the professors (and the faculty overall, and the admin) to
take responsibility for assessing students properly; we can't say,
exactly, how or why she "got through" 1301, or high school, or any
other "gateway." She might have managed to pass the specific
assessments. Knowledge depends on transferability; that is partly a
matter of the student's own will and awareness. Frequently, I have
students who demonstrate knowledge and ability in one assignment, then
"unlearn" it by the next assignment, or the next course they take with
me.
So, we continue to help the student define goals (sometimes, bigger
concepts,though; not only apostrophes and word endings: learning
strategies, attitudes, "wisdom" -- why not, when it can help?) --
But this sounds like something more, in any case; you might ask, with
sufficient respect for her privacy, if she has sought help from other
sources: counseling, ADA.
Part of our protocol is to see where our ability to help ends, but
also to provide students with information on other resources;
counseling is the usual next step in some cases. That's partly because
it's their job to provide broader information resources to students.
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&s...
Shannon Stoney
Dec 2, 2009, 3:14:58 PM12/2/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
On Dec 2, 2009, at 12:35 PM, rlunday wrote:
> Just remember that we are not saving people's lives; we should care,
> but we can't absorb everything and maintain our ability to help in a
> focused way. I get frustrated and angry all the time at the Bigger
> Problems; for me, in the end, it's social injustice, and not merely
> "bad teachers" or "bad schools." So, I handle the part that I can
> handle; I do my work down in the trenches, and lift up on occasion to
> re-think what I'm doing.
which in a sense we are. It's easy to get totally overwhelmed by the
mountain of problems, which we can only chip away at it, a day at a
time, with our tiny chisels.
I read recently an article about "how to avoid burn-out," written for
political organizers, and it said that you have to be in it for the
long haul and not expect immediate results. I wish I had read that
thirty years ago!
I wonder if Ron's student's problems were mostly about her prior
education, or about her brain tumor.
--shannon
ivy
Dec 2, 2009, 4:10:15 PM12/2/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
i'm not sure we should be talking about the students this way -- it
isn't our job to diagnose the problems that some of the students that
come into the Writing Center have, the powers that be have already
decided these students get to come to college (even if we deem it is a
waste of time and money). once the students are here, whoever they
are, with whatever competencies they have or have not, it is our job
to help them. i think this attitude of mental superiority is
detrimental -- and judgemental -- yes, i agree some of these students
shouldn't be in college, yes, i agree some of these students can't
retain things, yes, i agree working with some of these students is
painfully slow. on the other hand, some of the tutors need to refocus
their mental superiority to the task at hand. we are not working with
people who express themselves almost entirely in multisyllabic words.
big words do not clarify, they obfuscate and confuse. these students
understand the concepts, maybe not all the words, but the mechanisms
are there for understanding. our job is to figure out how to utilize
and activate the right mechanisms. this is the challenge and the
excitement of teaching. just my two cents again....
On Dec 2, 2:14 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
isn't our job to diagnose the problems that some of the students that
come into the Writing Center have, the powers that be have already
decided these students get to come to college (even if we deem it is a
waste of time and money). once the students are here, whoever they
are, with whatever competencies they have or have not, it is our job
to help them. i think this attitude of mental superiority is
detrimental -- and judgemental -- yes, i agree some of these students
shouldn't be in college, yes, i agree some of these students can't
retain things, yes, i agree working with some of these students is
painfully slow. on the other hand, some of the tutors need to refocus
their mental superiority to the task at hand. we are not working with
people who express themselves almost entirely in multisyllabic words.
big words do not clarify, they obfuscate and confuse. these students
understand the concepts, maybe not all the words, but the mechanisms
are there for understanding. our job is to figure out how to utilize
and activate the right mechanisms. this is the challenge and the
excitement of teaching. just my two cents again....
On Dec 2, 2:14 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
Ron Foster
Dec 2, 2009, 5:48:41 PM12/2/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
I did all those things, and the student moved forward. I just thought that when a professor allows a student taking 1301 a passing grade when she does not know even the very basics of grammar and writing, it is worth mentioning to this group.
--
Ron Foster – President
Solar Panels of America LLC
281-866-5001 877-370-8010
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "HCCS_SE_Writing_Center" group.
To post to this group, send email to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to hccs_se_writing_c...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hccs_se_writing_center?hl=en.
--
Ron Foster – President
Solar Panels of America LLC
281-866-5001 877-370-8010
rob.blain
Dec 2, 2009, 6:24:12 PM12/2/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
Yes, this is very true, Ron.
Rob Blain, Professor of English
Houston Community College, Southeast
6815 Rustic Street
Houston, TX 77087
(713) 718-7165
rob....@hccs.edu <mailto:rob....@hccs.edu>
________________________________
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to hccs_se_writing_c...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hccs_se_writing_center%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .
Rob Blain, Professor of English
Houston Community College, Southeast
6815 Rustic Street
Houston, TX 77087
(713) 718-7165
rob....@hccs.edu <mailto:rob....@hccs.edu>
________________________________
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hccs_se_writing_center?hl=en.
--
Ron Foster - President
--
Shannon Stoney
Dec 3, 2009, 10:19:17 AM12/3/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
>
> big words do not clarify, they obfuscate and confuse.
to increase students' vocabularies. Using five dollar words (as we
call them in TN) in sentences seems to help people learn to use those
words themselves.
I really like it when students start to use a more sophisticated and
precise vocabulary. I interviewed a student at the Story Corps booth on
Discovery Green on Sunday. It was for the Historias project, which is
an oral history project to collect stories from Latinos. She used a
lot of words that she didn't know even a year ago, like "elated," and
"priority." It made her interview really great.
--shannon
"You can take my five dollar words if you're willing to pry them from
my cold, dead, superior fingers."--Da Wiznitch
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages