**END-OF-TERM "MEETING"
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rlunday
Dec 6, 2009, 2:00:01 PM12/6/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
Hello Tutors, Receptionists, Faculty:
Instead of a physical meeting this term, let's all weigh in on our
experiences, what they might mean as teachable moments, and where we
should go for next term. I'll start:
First, we are, as you probably know, going somewhere else literally --
The Learning Hub, or that glassy new building down the road a bit.
Selena, Beverly, and I had a look at some rooms, but we do not yet
know which room we will be in. It is a temporary move, meaning that we
will be there (I expect) one semester, and perhaps (in our minimized
mode) during the summer. After that, we will be in Felix Morales, in a
rennovated space formerly occupied by the library's periodical and
computer area.
As soon as we know the room number in LH, we'll post it here.
Thanks, also, for packing the books, etc. We will finish packing our
stuff next week, and will take care of artwork and plants as well.
Furniture and computers will be moved for us.
We will once again share quarters with The Learning Assistance Center
(Math/Science tutoring) -- just for the interim, until we move to
Felix Morales.
There are challenges in the move: first, how to make it clear to
everyone (students/faculty) where we are. There are no classes in the
LH, and it isn't clear yet if the bookstore will be there (probably
not for the Spring term, in any case). There is a smallish student
lounge on the first floor; don't know if they'll use it, if all it has
are vending machines. We've pushed again for a Starbucks, but -- we'll
see.
The library is on the third floor, and seems to be getting business
from the students.
There is an outdoor patio that will have tables and chairs, I assume;
and a second-floor common area, near the new art gallery.
If you have a chance to walk over and take a look, feel free to share
your ideas. We might do some satellite tutoring, for example: in the
common areas, or even back over in the "old" building...we should
brainstorm.
Sharing a space with Math/Science is not easy: their tutoring methods
are different, sometimes more group-focused, and -- in any case, the
rooms we looked at are not large, and it's bound to be crowded.
Next:
We will probably need to have a tutor at the new Felix Fraga campus;
my notion is that it would be great if someone teaching there did some
tutoring before or after his or her class; but then they are more
likely to be tutoring their own students, and it's better to have
someone different. So, we'll talk about who might be willing to get
"posted" at Fraga.
Next:
Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
from you:
(1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
(2) Students whose writing/learning skills seem seriously inadequate
for the task they are attempting. (Consider this different from
"learning disability" -- the student in this case has perhaps fallen
through the cracks in the system). Given that we help whoever comes in
the door, how do we best offer help when one or two tutoring sessions
might not be enough?
(3) ESL, as an ongoing theme: Did you try anything new, or learn
anything new about helping students who are non-native English
speakers, or who might be "Generation 1.5" speakers?
(4) What can you observe about the students you saw more than once
this term, or have worked with over a period of time?
(5) What kinds of essays did you help students with, and what
resources/methods might we need to assist students better with such
assignments?
(6) How can we help students with reading problems?
(7) How should we work with students who are impatient, unfocused,
reluctant, rude, etc.?
(8) We help with grammar, structure, development, and content; what
are your methods for dealing with specific issues in these (or other)
categories?
(9) Did student bring in assignment handouts? Did you need them? Did
we have the ones you needed on file? How might we change the way we
work with faculty?
(10) Have students mentioned other forms of help they’re getting –
Askonline, for example? What comments do they make?
(11) What do you think about our offering some form of distance
tutoring: not asynchronous, necessarily, but something that might
complement Askonline: audio/video tutoring, for example.
(12) What can you say about our present methods, resources, etc.?
(13) Do we need a cell phone policy? What other annoyances did you
experience?
(14) Have you had a look at any of the following, lately: Peer
Centered, Praxis, The Writing Center Journal, The Writing Lab
Newsletter, or WCenter (the listserv for Writing Center people)? Did
you read anything of especial value?
(15) …anything else?
Please, everyone comment on something – whichever of these, or some
other matter, seems worth your two cents.
**
And also, have a great Winter holiday! We will keep in touch about
changes, schedules for Spring, and other matters. Thanks for all your
hard work and enthusiasm.
Instead of a physical meeting this term, let's all weigh in on our
experiences, what they might mean as teachable moments, and where we
should go for next term. I'll start:
First, we are, as you probably know, going somewhere else literally --
The Learning Hub, or that glassy new building down the road a bit.
Selena, Beverly, and I had a look at some rooms, but we do not yet
know which room we will be in. It is a temporary move, meaning that we
will be there (I expect) one semester, and perhaps (in our minimized
mode) during the summer. After that, we will be in Felix Morales, in a
rennovated space formerly occupied by the library's periodical and
computer area.
As soon as we know the room number in LH, we'll post it here.
Thanks, also, for packing the books, etc. We will finish packing our
stuff next week, and will take care of artwork and plants as well.
Furniture and computers will be moved for us.
We will once again share quarters with The Learning Assistance Center
(Math/Science tutoring) -- just for the interim, until we move to
Felix Morales.
There are challenges in the move: first, how to make it clear to
everyone (students/faculty) where we are. There are no classes in the
LH, and it isn't clear yet if the bookstore will be there (probably
not for the Spring term, in any case). There is a smallish student
lounge on the first floor; don't know if they'll use it, if all it has
are vending machines. We've pushed again for a Starbucks, but -- we'll
see.
The library is on the third floor, and seems to be getting business
from the students.
There is an outdoor patio that will have tables and chairs, I assume;
and a second-floor common area, near the new art gallery.
If you have a chance to walk over and take a look, feel free to share
your ideas. We might do some satellite tutoring, for example: in the
common areas, or even back over in the "old" building...we should
brainstorm.
Sharing a space with Math/Science is not easy: their tutoring methods
are different, sometimes more group-focused, and -- in any case, the
rooms we looked at are not large, and it's bound to be crowded.
Next:
We will probably need to have a tutor at the new Felix Fraga campus;
my notion is that it would be great if someone teaching there did some
tutoring before or after his or her class; but then they are more
likely to be tutoring their own students, and it's better to have
someone different. So, we'll talk about who might be willing to get
"posted" at Fraga.
Next:
Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
from you:
(1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
(2) Students whose writing/learning skills seem seriously inadequate
for the task they are attempting. (Consider this different from
"learning disability" -- the student in this case has perhaps fallen
through the cracks in the system). Given that we help whoever comes in
the door, how do we best offer help when one or two tutoring sessions
might not be enough?
(3) ESL, as an ongoing theme: Did you try anything new, or learn
anything new about helping students who are non-native English
speakers, or who might be "Generation 1.5" speakers?
(4) What can you observe about the students you saw more than once
this term, or have worked with over a period of time?
(5) What kinds of essays did you help students with, and what
resources/methods might we need to assist students better with such
assignments?
(6) How can we help students with reading problems?
(7) How should we work with students who are impatient, unfocused,
reluctant, rude, etc.?
(8) We help with grammar, structure, development, and content; what
are your methods for dealing with specific issues in these (or other)
categories?
(9) Did student bring in assignment handouts? Did you need them? Did
we have the ones you needed on file? How might we change the way we
work with faculty?
(10) Have students mentioned other forms of help they’re getting –
Askonline, for example? What comments do they make?
(11) What do you think about our offering some form of distance
tutoring: not asynchronous, necessarily, but something that might
complement Askonline: audio/video tutoring, for example.
(12) What can you say about our present methods, resources, etc.?
(13) Do we need a cell phone policy? What other annoyances did you
experience?
(14) Have you had a look at any of the following, lately: Peer
Centered, Praxis, The Writing Center Journal, The Writing Lab
Newsletter, or WCenter (the listserv for Writing Center people)? Did
you read anything of especial value?
(15) …anything else?
Please, everyone comment on something – whichever of these, or some
other matter, seems worth your two cents.
**
And also, have a great Winter holiday! We will keep in touch about
changes, schedules for Spring, and other matters. Thanks for all your
hard work and enthusiasm.
Shannon Stoney
Dec 8, 2009, 12:16:58 PM12/8/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
>
> Next:
>
> Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
> listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
> experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
> from you:
>
> (1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
> have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
> professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
> circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
> aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
> might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
I think we can work with them, patiently and slowly, but I agree with
> Next:
>
> Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
> listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
> experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
> from you:
>
> (1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
> have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
> professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
> circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
> aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
> might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
what you said before about limiting them to two sessions per week.
Otherwise they can take a lot of time just by hanging around and
jumping in any time there's a free time.
I wish that the admissions people would be more realistic about the
fact that severely disabled students may not be able to do the reading
and writing and math basic courses that their advisors seem to think
they should take. I think they either shouldn't admit those students,
or else they shouldn't require them to take all these basic courses,
and just let them go straight into the vocational courses like welding
or whatever.
It's not fair to take people's tuition money when there's no real
possibility of them passing their courses, IMHO.
>
> (2) Students whose writing/learning skills seem seriously inadequate
> for the task they are attempting. (Consider this different from
> "learning disability" -- the student in this case has perhaps fallen
> through the cracks in the system). Given that we help whoever comes in
> the door, how do we best offer help when one or two tutoring sessions
> might not be enough?
and maybe to the same tutor every week. I think there's a way in the
software to reserve the same time every week, without going to each
week to make the same appt.
I think the next question was about ESL and I deleted it, but then I
thought of something that I think somebody brought up the other day. I
think it was Ron. A lot of times people with very poor English skills
are in the 1301 and 1302 English classes. So they're trying to write a
long paper about, say, Hamlet or Sartre or the Civil War. But they can
barely understand the texts themselves, and then they have a very hard
time writing a long paper about what they've read. I feel very
hopeless tutoring these students. I read their paper and make a few
suggestions, but my real feeling is that they're not ready to read
Hamlet or Sartre or write about Hamlet criticism. First they need to
improve their English reading and writing a lot.
So I wonder: is there a test you have to take to get out of the ESL
classes and into 1301 and 1302? Or do you just have to pass the ESL or
developmental classes? Is it doing these students a disservice to
pass them along through the system, and presumably on to four year
universities, when their English is still so poor?
While I was in the middle of writing this, a Vietnamese student came in
with a paper about Sartre and existentialism! Yikes! The essay by
Sartre was very difficult, not only because of its prose style but also
because the ideas are difficult, of course. In some ways it's exciting
to see students wrestling with difficult texts like Sartre's or
Shakespeare's; in other ways, it's frustrating, because it's hard to
know where to start when helping them. A lot of their sentences make
no sense at all, because they're having so much trouble making sense
out of what they're reading. There are lots of gross misreadings.
One aspect of tutoring ESl students is that I often have trouble
understanding their spoken English. For example, when I was asking the
Vietnamese student what she meant in a certain passage, I barely
understood her answer at all. I think working with the same student
over time sometimes helps; you get used to their "accent."
I guess I am wishing that there was a more graduated scale in the
curriculum, where students could gradually work with more and more
difficult texts, rather than being thrown in the deep end when they are
still not at all fluent with English. Maybe there needs to be a more
coherent curriculum, with more planning between faculty members? Or
more ESL classes that ease people more gradually into the regular
English, history and philosophy courses? Sometimes it seems as if
students are taking on graduate-level assignments when they are still
reading and writing at the 8th grade level!
One irony of this is that some students seem able to handle the complex
ideas in Hamlet or Sartre, for example; they just have trouble
expressing those ideas. For those students, writing about these texts
is just the right amount of challenge for them. But for others, the
challenge is overwhelming, when they can't understand the text OR write
about it coherently. Hey, I've been there, and it feels awful. I
think when the assignment is too overwhelming, it's not pleasurable,
and not much learning happens, and the whole experience is just kind of
meaningless suffering.
>
> (4) What can you observe about the students you saw more than once
> this term, or have worked with over a period of time?
also to work on the same project with a student over time. I worked
with one student over several weeks on a project for history. She
actually gave me a copy of the book that she had to write about. It was
really good. Most students wouldn't buy an extra copy of the book for
their tutor, but reading the book really helped me help her.
So, again, I was wondering if teachers could put copies of the essays
that students will be writing about in the writing center. Some of them
I have practically memorized ("Poisoned Waters Are Killing our Fish!").
But sometimes I need to review exactly how the argument in the essay
works or doesn't work.
>
> (5) What kinds of essays did you help students with, and what
> resources/methods might we need to assist students better with such
> assignments?
didn't make much sense, and it was difficult for students to do a
"critical analysis" when the essay they were supposed to be analyzing
was so incoherent.
>
> (6) How can we help students with reading problems?
>
> (7) How should we work with students who are impatient, unfocused,
> reluctant, rude, etc.?
against it." So, maybe we could suggest prayer. Oh wait: we're at a
public school.
>
> (8) We help with grammar, structure, development, and content; what
> are your methods for dealing with specific issues in these (or other)
> categories?
as a way to explain what a comma splice or sentence fragment is. But
despite the fact that I reviewed a diagramming book, I still can't
figure out how to diagram some sentence structures. But in that case, I
just make up a way to do it.
>
> (9) Did student bring in assignment handouts? Did you need them? Did
> we have the ones you needed on file? How might we change the way we
> work with faculty?
of time with faculty if possible, so that we have a clearer idea of
what they are looking for. There were times this semester when I had a
lot of trouble figuring out what a teacher was looking for in an
assignment. A little explanation ahead of time, either in person or by
email, would have been helpful.
I always need the assignment handout. I saw some of yours, Robert, and
that was very helpful when your students were doing the essay about
Hamlet. I had a chance to read some of your handouts ahead of time.
>
> (11) What do you think about our offering some form of distance
> tutoring: not asynchronous, necessarily, but something that might
> complement Askonline: audio/video tutoring, for example.
I tutored online for a while and I hated it. Maybe I'm just
temperamentally unsuited to it, but I disliked the superficial aspect
of it and the lack of any human contact. I felt frustrated that I
couldn't ask the student, "What were you trying to say here?" All I
could do was make a note that the passage was confusing or unclear.
If I think of some more things, I 'll write more later.
Wolcome Yule!
--shannon
>
> **
>
> And also, have a great Winter holiday! We will keep in touch about
> changes, schedules for Spring, and other matters. Thanks for all your
> hard work and enthusiasm.
>
>
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>
>
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Shannon Stoney
Dec 8, 2009, 1:26:16 PM12/8/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
More for the "meeting":
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is this issue of how much
cultural relativism is ok, and how much thinking we should force on
students about their cultural norms.
I thought about it a lot after talking with the Chinese woman a week or
so ago about her idea that women have a duty to have children because
they have uteri.
Anyway I thought about it again today, because a Muslim guy from
Somalia came in with a paper about discrimination. He told a story
about how when his family first came to the US, somebody tried to take
his mother's head scarf off at the airport. Of course this was assault
and was unconscionable, and he was rightly outraged by this example of
"discrimination."
However the next paragraph was about Somalia, and how in Somalia gay
people are stoned to death! He also thinks this is wrong. Again,
agreed. But in the interest of helping him to think, I said, "Well, if
it's wrong to discriminate against gay people, why is it ok to
discriminate against women by making them wear a head scarf? Men don't
have to."
He said that it was because it's a religious thing, and "men don't have
anything to offer"! Well, some women might disagree with that. Anyway,
to make the point more strongly, I said, "What about female genital
mutilation? Wouldn't that be discriminatory against women, even though
it's required by the religion?"
Again, he said it wasn't, because girls choose it. And then I said that
a lot of girls are forced to undergo the procedure by their families;
they don't choose it, any more than people choose to be stoned to death
for being gay.
Then he started telling me that FGM was a good thing because it
prevented cancer. He said he had googled it and found out that that
was true!
At that point I decided to end the conversation and the tutoring
session.
Ok, maybe I shouldn't have gotten into this whole can of worms. But the
student was aware of the controversy surrounding head scarves in
France, and so I thought he was capable of at least considering that
requiring women to cover their heads and bodies, and mutilate
themselves, was a form of discrimination similar to the discrimination
against gays that he condemns in Somalia. I was wrong.
Well, maybe not. Maybe he'll go home and think about it. Welcome to
America.
Anyway, we see a lot of students from pre-Enlightenment cultures. And
these students frequently express beliefs that are contrary to the
cultural beliefs of the West and of the United States. I think this is
an example of a teachable moment, when these beliefs come up in
students' writing; but we also have a commitment to tolerance,
so...it's hard to balance those two things sometimes.
--shannon
Shannon Stoney
Dec 8, 2009, 1:38:07 PM12/8/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
Just got word that the "Somalian" student is not really somalian and
had made up the whole head scarf story!
--shannon
rlunday
Dec 8, 2009, 2:16:09 PM12/8/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
Skipping over, for a moment, that this seems to have been entirely
made up -- if I understand your follow-up message --
You have 30 minutes: not enough time to "enlighten" people, I think.
Nor is that our objective. Yes, it's useful to model argument in
collaboration with the student; but his ideas are his own -- however
unconscionable they might seem to us. We discussed something like this
before, and my comment then was to help them learn awareness of
"audience" as a rhetorical concern. So, what might be a general
"American" range of sensibilities? Not just the tutor's sensibility,
mind you -- if you know full well that many people reasonably thought
of as an American audience (men, women, young, old, Republican,
Democrat...) don't necessarily think as you do, then be honest about
that -- we don't need to convert people to any particular ideology.
Even then, I am tentative as to what other Americans get offended by.
I can assume that more people are horrified by FGM than by head
scarves; but what degree, or for what reasons...we would find a wide
and perhaps disturbing variety of perceptions, I think, without
polling too far away from where we're sitting.
My own belief is that if students can learn critical thinking and
rhetorical skills, they have a chance of coming around to a balanced
perspective -- in a purely cynical sense, I guess that means:
offending fewer readers than they would without that "balance." I do,
myself, connect rhetoric, and writing generally, to democratic ideals.
But at the foundation of rhetoric, that's a tricky issue. Plato puts
forth varying positions in the Phaedrus and Gorgias: sometimes
Socrates seems to see rhetoric as serving whatever sophistic purpose
it is tied to, good or evil; sometimes he sees it as tied to dialectic
-- in that context, the logical seeking out, in collaboration, of
truth...
...and in Aristotle's Rhetoric, everything seems orderly and
reasonable: then, you read that one of his accepted forms of
persuasion was torture!
Anyway --
-- try to separate the topic itself (head scarves, or female genital
mutilation) from the writing concerns. We don't need to change
people's opinions -- which usually doesn't work, anyway, right? We
need to help them connect critical thinking with research (the
informed opinion), and connect that with fluent writing. In thirty
minutes! If interesting dialogue takes place, if friendships are made,
that's great -- but keep on top of the main goal, which is to send
them away at the end of the conference with some sense of how to
improve their writing.
If you ended the conference because you were offended by his
positions, then the conference got too far off track from its real
purpose. If FGM wasn't even the topic in his paper, then it was
probably not (given the enormity of the topic, in the view of most
Westerners) a good analogy to bring up in the first place. Work with
analogies that will not distract from the goals of the conference.
From your account, this got three or so steps away from what he was
talking about in his paper.
--but --
what does that mean, he was not Somalian...?! Was he trying to "punk"
you, as the young people say these days? (Goodness me, I am not "young
people" anymore!).
On Dec 8, 12:26 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
made up -- if I understand your follow-up message --
You have 30 minutes: not enough time to "enlighten" people, I think.
Nor is that our objective. Yes, it's useful to model argument in
collaboration with the student; but his ideas are his own -- however
unconscionable they might seem to us. We discussed something like this
before, and my comment then was to help them learn awareness of
"audience" as a rhetorical concern. So, what might be a general
"American" range of sensibilities? Not just the tutor's sensibility,
mind you -- if you know full well that many people reasonably thought
of as an American audience (men, women, young, old, Republican,
Democrat...) don't necessarily think as you do, then be honest about
that -- we don't need to convert people to any particular ideology.
Even then, I am tentative as to what other Americans get offended by.
I can assume that more people are horrified by FGM than by head
scarves; but what degree, or for what reasons...we would find a wide
and perhaps disturbing variety of perceptions, I think, without
polling too far away from where we're sitting.
My own belief is that if students can learn critical thinking and
rhetorical skills, they have a chance of coming around to a balanced
perspective -- in a purely cynical sense, I guess that means:
offending fewer readers than they would without that "balance." I do,
myself, connect rhetoric, and writing generally, to democratic ideals.
But at the foundation of rhetoric, that's a tricky issue. Plato puts
forth varying positions in the Phaedrus and Gorgias: sometimes
Socrates seems to see rhetoric as serving whatever sophistic purpose
it is tied to, good or evil; sometimes he sees it as tied to dialectic
-- in that context, the logical seeking out, in collaboration, of
truth...
...and in Aristotle's Rhetoric, everything seems orderly and
reasonable: then, you read that one of his accepted forms of
persuasion was torture!
Anyway --
-- try to separate the topic itself (head scarves, or female genital
mutilation) from the writing concerns. We don't need to change
people's opinions -- which usually doesn't work, anyway, right? We
need to help them connect critical thinking with research (the
informed opinion), and connect that with fluent writing. In thirty
minutes! If interesting dialogue takes place, if friendships are made,
that's great -- but keep on top of the main goal, which is to send
them away at the end of the conference with some sense of how to
improve their writing.
If you ended the conference because you were offended by his
positions, then the conference got too far off track from its real
purpose. If FGM wasn't even the topic in his paper, then it was
probably not (given the enormity of the topic, in the view of most
Westerners) a good analogy to bring up in the first place. Work with
analogies that will not distract from the goals of the conference.
From your account, this got three or so steps away from what he was
talking about in his paper.
--but --
what does that mean, he was not Somalian...?! Was he trying to "punk"
you, as the young people say these days? (Goodness me, I am not "young
people" anymore!).
On Dec 8, 12:26 pm, Shannon Stoney <shannonsto...@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
Shannon Stoney
Dec 8, 2009, 4:19:47 PM12/8/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
>
> My own belief is that if students can learn critical thinking and
> rhetorical skills, they have a chance of coming around to a balanced
> perspective -- in a purely cynical sense, I guess that means:
> offending fewer readers than they would without that "balance."
so new) seem to have no awareness that defending FGM for example might
be offensive to anybody.
Also it seemed as if he was contradicting himself more than a little
bit: arguing that discriminating against women who wear head scarves
was bad, and that discriminating against gays was bad, but not
realizing that forcing women to wear head scarves or full body
coverings is itself discriminatory, and the fact that it happens
"within the family" or "because of religion" doesn't make it less so.
I guess I just wanted him to realize that an alert reader might notice
that contradiction.
> ...and in Aristotle's Rhetoric, everything seems orderly and
> reasonable: then, you read that one of his accepted forms of
> persuasion was torture!
so...so much for classical education!
> --but --
>
> what does that mean, he was not Somalian...?! Was he trying to "punk"
> you, as the young people say these days? (Goodness me, I am not "young
> people" anymore!).
because I haven't been a young person for a long time.
But his teacher came to the writing center shortly after the conference
ended, and told me that he had made the whole story up: that he's not
Somalian, and that sometimes he says he's Puerto Rican, but he has an
Arabic name, so...She was very frustrated with this student also, for
all kinds of reasons, one being that the paper was weeks late.
I think sometimes when students are at a loss for what to write, they
do just "make something up." In this case he invented a half-baked
immigration story with a heart-tugging bit about an Ugly American
tearing off his mother's scarf, and the airport security guard
supporting the assailant's right to do so! This did seem pretty
far-fetched, but what do I know.
Usually when students just make up personal narratives, the writing has
a sort of bad smell about it of inauthenticity, and this was the case
here.
Maybe I should have mentioned the Danish cartoons. ;-)
--shannon
ivy
Dec 8, 2009, 6:27:11 PM12/8/09
to HCCS_SE_Writing_Center
wow, i almost hate to jump in here since so much exciting verbal
interplay is already in progress...
so i'm going to just post what i wrote in response to robert's general
query for feedback (deleting all extraneous material):
There is a smallish student lounge on the first floor; don't know if
they'll use it, if all it has are vending machines. We've pushed again
for a Starbucks, but -- we'll see.
Don’t tease me – I would kill for a Starbucks – a latte, a latte, my
kingdom for a latte…quoth the caffeine addict.
Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
from you:
(1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
Do we have any hearing impaired students? – I would love to help with
that – my mother was deaf and I lip-read, also I can understand
students who are deaf without difficulty – which is half of the
battle.
(3) ESL, as an ongoing theme: Did you try anything new, or learn
anything new about helping students who are non-native English
speakers, or who might be "Generation 1.5" speakers?
What I learned is that ESL students are very willing to learn, but
usually a little reserved on the first meeting – once they like and
trust you, they are very loyal and eager to learn. The best resource
I have come across that addresses this problem is something I got at
Half-Price Books for $5.00 – McGraw-Hill’s Essential ESL Grammar: A
Handbook for Intermediate and Advanced ESL Students by Mark Lester,
PhD, published by McGraw Hill – looks like it might be out of print –
maybe we can get some used somewhere for the Writing Center – it
helped me understand the concepts I am trying to explain to the
students.
(5) What kinds of essays did you help students with, and what
resources/methods might we need to assist students better with such
assignments?
You name it, I worked on it – Philosophy; Plato, Meno, Apology,
Erythphro, Anthropology, (Bonobo, aka, Pygmy Chimpanzees), American
History (the Revolutionary war, the Civil War, the Civil Rights and
women’s movements), Ancient History (Alexander the Great, Ancient
Egypt), English (Shakespeare, Hamlet), essayists (Nathaniel Hawthorne,
Dr. Laura Schlessinger, William F. Buckley Jr.), Poetry (Keats,
Shelley), Sociology, Psychology, Health, (Venereal diseases, Autism),
Biology, and my favorite Art Appreciation (Romantic painters, abstract
expressionists like Jackson Pollock, and modernists at the CAM and the
Museum of Contemporary Crafts in Houston). As a rule I try to read
everything the students read. Therefore, it would be nice to have all
the Readers the teachers are using available in the Writing Center, as
well as any essays given as handouts. I find it difficult to help a
student organize or think through an essay without having read the
source material first, but that’s just me…lol (i agree with what
Shannon said about this)
Btw, I have had a virtual cornucopia of learning opportunities in the
last year and a half, and for this I am eternally grateful, my brain
has been producing new neural pathways with alarming alacrity – I’ve
never felt so alive…lol
(6) How can we help students with reading problems?
I have only had one student who is anxious to learn how to read better
– we go out into the lobby where the new furniture is and I let her
read to me – she sounds out the words and then she asks me to explain
the meaning of the ones she doesn’t understand. And that’s what we
do. I don’t consider this a waste of time because she is really
trying hard to improve herself, in whatever way she can, and she has a
grant to attend college and she doesn’t want to lose it.
(9) Did student bring in assignment handouts? Did you need them? Did
we have the ones you needed on file? How might we change the way we
work with faculty?
This happens so rarely that I would say it is an anomaly when a
student actually shows up with the assignment sheet in hand – but I
really don’t think it’s that big a problem because we can usually
figure out what the assignment is pretty quickly. Oftentimes we get
the same assignments over and over and it is only the first student to
show up with a new assignment who serves as the “sacrificial student”
on which we get to work out the strategy for helping each of the
following students.
Here’s a crazy idea (and you know what they say about crazy ideas…
that’s just crazy enough to work) – how about an exchange program
where the instructors spend a few hours a week as tutors and the
tutors spend a few hours a week as instructors? (not for credit, just
to facilitate understanding). Sometimes I feel like a stranger in a
strange land (think Bradbury) and I grok nothing here…
(10) Have students mentioned other forms of help they’re getting –
Askonline, for example? What comments do they make?
One of my best students uses Askonline a lot – and I must say they do
a fine job of enthusiastically marking up the texts, almost to the
point where there are so many mark-ups you can’t see the original
words any longer. I guess this is okay, because their general
comments are right to the point and helpful in getting the students
oriented in the right direction. On the other hand, the online tutors
catch a lot of the picky grammatical errors so by the time I get a
paper back from a student it looks like someone else has written it.
Which makes me wonder, are they proof-reading, since we aren’t
supposed to be?
(13) Do we need a cell phone policy? What other annoyances did you
experience?
I think a note at the door would be a great idea – something like
“Please turn off your cell phones or have your heads chopped off, all
ye who enter here NOW!” (something subtle, but to the point…lol) --
like they do at the movie theatre or at church. Personally I believe
there are hardly any emergencies that can’t wait the extra half hour…
(14) Have you had a look at any of the following, lately: Peer
Centered, Praxis, The Writing Center Journal, The Writing Lab
Newsletter, or WCenter (the listserv for Writing Center people)? Did
you read anything of especial value?
I saw a really good article about the “ideal essay” (I’m pretty sure
it came from the Writing Lab Newsletter) which had something to say
about the “ideal essay” and the tutoring process – that is, we often
go into an assignment with a preconceived notion of what our “ideal
essay” would be, or as I envision it, as if I had to write it myself.
This is a good starting point for each writing assignment and my knee-
jerk reaction when I first started tutoring was to do just that. I
try very hard now not to do this (after reading the above mentioned
article). I now try to view each assignment for what it is, not for
what it isn’t. I don’t try to compare it to some standardized ideal –
I try to start with what the student has already put down on paper and
make sure it makes sense, fulfills the teacher’s requirements as well
as possible, and is grammatically acceptable. I have to remind myself
that these are not experts in the field, they are students, and as
such, not going to create perfect pieces.
This is something I learned when judging photography – student work is
not the same as professional work and we shouldn’t grade it with the
same standards. I can tell a lot of academicians currently teaching
here don’t agree with this concept – they tend to adhere to a motto of
“expect excellence” and “receive excellence”. But this is not how
people learn – they make mistakes, they might produce what we consider
crappy papers, but they still learn something from every assignment.
In fact, they probably learn more from the crappy papers, i.e., what
not to do next time. (just my 2 cents worth)
(15) …anything else?
and now i expound...In a perfect world – I would like to see some sort
of standardization in curriculum – I know this is not possible at the
college level. Each teacher/instructor/professor seems to have his/
her idea of what books to use, what methods to use, what goals the
students ought to achieve. In a perfect world, every one of my
students would learn one and only one thing before we get into writing
different types of essays: how to write a GOOD essay – the basic
mechanics. The different types of essays are not as important as the
concept of essay writing. Before we go onto learning variations, how
about perfecting the basic process first? This is in reference to
teaching different types of essays in the English 1301 and 1302
courses.
On the other hand, I thank God or my conceptualization of him, for
teachers like Rob Blain. Although I may not agree with the beliefs
proposed by the writers he assigns, I completely agree with his
assigning of these particular essays. I believe we learn something
from everyone we meet and we learn more from those we do not agree
with. In a former life as an art student, we learned the importance of
the critique process. It is more important to figure out why you
DON’T like something, a piece of art for example, than to know why you
DO like something, although both are important. I spend much more
time studying things I don’t like than things I do like. And in the
final analysis I find something likeable (or useful) about
everything. (3 cents?)
Anyway, in my perfect world, there would be certain assigned classes
for all teachers, education classes, for example, where “having the
most knowledge” isn’t the point, “interaction with students” is the
point. We have many very educated teachers here at HCC, but being
smart isn’t necessarily being able to disseminate your knowledge to
your students. In a perfect world, we are all here because we love
teaching. In the real world, I suspect some of us are here for other
reasons.
There would be a class on critical thinking, which would be similar to
debate. I don’t know what they call it these days, but debate was an
extracurricular activity when I was in school. In my perfect world,
we could teach debate just like Socrates did. Debate is a great way
to learn how to study both sides of an argument and understand them,
both their strengths and their weaknesses. Last but not least, in my
perfect world, there would also be requisite classes on diversity, for
teachers and students, not just diversity training, but classes that
celebrate everyone’s unique ancestry and differences. Community
college is a perfect place to experience a tiny replica of the real
world, because we have people of every possible permutation here,
either teaching or attending.
Miscellaneous (which goes to my comment above about things it would be
nice for instructors to know, in my perfect world…and some of what I
have learned so far at the Adjunct Academy currently being taught at
HCC). Things I hear teachers/instructors say all the time and their
rebuttal: the students don’t listen, the students are lazy, the
students aren’t paying attention…
Myth: The best way to teach is to give information in a well-planned
lecture.
Truth: We remember 10 to 20 percent of what we hear. If we want
someone to "hear" something, we lecture. If we want students to
"learn," we need to work as a guide on the side and involve them.
Myth: If we'd only listen, we'd remember more.
Truth: We learn and remember 80 to 90 percent of what we do and say.
In order to learn anything well, we need to talk about it with each
other and do it a number of times.
The end…
Please, everyone comment on something – whichever of these, or some
other matter, seems worth your two cents.
interplay is already in progress...
so i'm going to just post what i wrote in response to robert's general
query for feedback (deleting all extraneous material):
There is a smallish student lounge on the first floor; don't know if
they'll use it, if all it has are vending machines. We've pushed again
for a Starbucks, but -- we'll see.
kingdom for a latte…quoth the caffeine addict.
Ok, what about this term? Other than what has threaded through this
listserv, what were some interesting issues -- continuing motifs, new
experiences? Here's what I recall, and what I'm curious to hear about
from you:
(1) Students with special needs: how can we help students who might
have learning disabilities? When students request ADA accommodations,
professors receive notification, and particular regulations/
circumstances apply. But the Writing Center isn't "faculty," so we
aren't in the loop; how should we best approach helping someone who
might have a disability, while respecting confidentiality?
that – my mother was deaf and I lip-read, also I can understand
students who are deaf without difficulty – which is half of the
battle.
(3) ESL, as an ongoing theme: Did you try anything new, or learn
anything new about helping students who are non-native English
speakers, or who might be "Generation 1.5" speakers?
usually a little reserved on the first meeting – once they like and
trust you, they are very loyal and eager to learn. The best resource
I have come across that addresses this problem is something I got at
Half-Price Books for $5.00 – McGraw-Hill’s Essential ESL Grammar: A
Handbook for Intermediate and Advanced ESL Students by Mark Lester,
PhD, published by McGraw Hill – looks like it might be out of print –
maybe we can get some used somewhere for the Writing Center – it
helped me understand the concepts I am trying to explain to the
students.
(5) What kinds of essays did you help students with, and what
resources/methods might we need to assist students better with such
assignments?
Erythphro, Anthropology, (Bonobo, aka, Pygmy Chimpanzees), American
History (the Revolutionary war, the Civil War, the Civil Rights and
women’s movements), Ancient History (Alexander the Great, Ancient
Egypt), English (Shakespeare, Hamlet), essayists (Nathaniel Hawthorne,
Dr. Laura Schlessinger, William F. Buckley Jr.), Poetry (Keats,
Shelley), Sociology, Psychology, Health, (Venereal diseases, Autism),
Biology, and my favorite Art Appreciation (Romantic painters, abstract
expressionists like Jackson Pollock, and modernists at the CAM and the
Museum of Contemporary Crafts in Houston). As a rule I try to read
everything the students read. Therefore, it would be nice to have all
the Readers the teachers are using available in the Writing Center, as
well as any essays given as handouts. I find it difficult to help a
student organize or think through an essay without having read the
source material first, but that’s just me…lol (i agree with what
Shannon said about this)
Btw, I have had a virtual cornucopia of learning opportunities in the
last year and a half, and for this I am eternally grateful, my brain
has been producing new neural pathways with alarming alacrity – I’ve
never felt so alive…lol
(6) How can we help students with reading problems?
– we go out into the lobby where the new furniture is and I let her
read to me – she sounds out the words and then she asks me to explain
the meaning of the ones she doesn’t understand. And that’s what we
do. I don’t consider this a waste of time because she is really
trying hard to improve herself, in whatever way she can, and she has a
grant to attend college and she doesn’t want to lose it.
(9) Did student bring in assignment handouts? Did you need them? Did
we have the ones you needed on file? How might we change the way we
work with faculty?
student actually shows up with the assignment sheet in hand – but I
really don’t think it’s that big a problem because we can usually
figure out what the assignment is pretty quickly. Oftentimes we get
the same assignments over and over and it is only the first student to
show up with a new assignment who serves as the “sacrificial student”
on which we get to work out the strategy for helping each of the
following students.
Here’s a crazy idea (and you know what they say about crazy ideas…
that’s just crazy enough to work) – how about an exchange program
where the instructors spend a few hours a week as tutors and the
tutors spend a few hours a week as instructors? (not for credit, just
to facilitate understanding). Sometimes I feel like a stranger in a
strange land (think Bradbury) and I grok nothing here…
(10) Have students mentioned other forms of help they’re getting –
Askonline, for example? What comments do they make?
a fine job of enthusiastically marking up the texts, almost to the
point where there are so many mark-ups you can’t see the original
words any longer. I guess this is okay, because their general
comments are right to the point and helpful in getting the students
oriented in the right direction. On the other hand, the online tutors
catch a lot of the picky grammatical errors so by the time I get a
paper back from a student it looks like someone else has written it.
Which makes me wonder, are they proof-reading, since we aren’t
supposed to be?
(13) Do we need a cell phone policy? What other annoyances did you
experience?
“Please turn off your cell phones or have your heads chopped off, all
ye who enter here NOW!” (something subtle, but to the point…lol) --
like they do at the movie theatre or at church. Personally I believe
there are hardly any emergencies that can’t wait the extra half hour…
(14) Have you had a look at any of the following, lately: Peer
Centered, Praxis, The Writing Center Journal, The Writing Lab
Newsletter, or WCenter (the listserv for Writing Center people)? Did
you read anything of especial value?
it came from the Writing Lab Newsletter) which had something to say
about the “ideal essay” and the tutoring process – that is, we often
go into an assignment with a preconceived notion of what our “ideal
essay” would be, or as I envision it, as if I had to write it myself.
This is a good starting point for each writing assignment and my knee-
jerk reaction when I first started tutoring was to do just that. I
try very hard now not to do this (after reading the above mentioned
article). I now try to view each assignment for what it is, not for
what it isn’t. I don’t try to compare it to some standardized ideal –
I try to start with what the student has already put down on paper and
make sure it makes sense, fulfills the teacher’s requirements as well
as possible, and is grammatically acceptable. I have to remind myself
that these are not experts in the field, they are students, and as
such, not going to create perfect pieces.
This is something I learned when judging photography – student work is
not the same as professional work and we shouldn’t grade it with the
same standards. I can tell a lot of academicians currently teaching
here don’t agree with this concept – they tend to adhere to a motto of
“expect excellence” and “receive excellence”. But this is not how
people learn – they make mistakes, they might produce what we consider
crappy papers, but they still learn something from every assignment.
In fact, they probably learn more from the crappy papers, i.e., what
not to do next time. (just my 2 cents worth)
(15) …anything else?
and now i expound...In a perfect world – I would like to see some sort
of standardization in curriculum – I know this is not possible at the
college level. Each teacher/instructor/professor seems to have his/
her idea of what books to use, what methods to use, what goals the
students ought to achieve. In a perfect world, every one of my
students would learn one and only one thing before we get into writing
different types of essays: how to write a GOOD essay – the basic
mechanics. The different types of essays are not as important as the
concept of essay writing. Before we go onto learning variations, how
about perfecting the basic process first? This is in reference to
teaching different types of essays in the English 1301 and 1302
courses.
On the other hand, I thank God or my conceptualization of him, for
teachers like Rob Blain. Although I may not agree with the beliefs
proposed by the writers he assigns, I completely agree with his
assigning of these particular essays. I believe we learn something
from everyone we meet and we learn more from those we do not agree
with. In a former life as an art student, we learned the importance of
the critique process. It is more important to figure out why you
DON’T like something, a piece of art for example, than to know why you
DO like something, although both are important. I spend much more
time studying things I don’t like than things I do like. And in the
final analysis I find something likeable (or useful) about
everything. (3 cents?)
Anyway, in my perfect world, there would be certain assigned classes
for all teachers, education classes, for example, where “having the
most knowledge” isn’t the point, “interaction with students” is the
point. We have many very educated teachers here at HCC, but being
smart isn’t necessarily being able to disseminate your knowledge to
your students. In a perfect world, we are all here because we love
teaching. In the real world, I suspect some of us are here for other
reasons.
There would be a class on critical thinking, which would be similar to
debate. I don’t know what they call it these days, but debate was an
extracurricular activity when I was in school. In my perfect world,
we could teach debate just like Socrates did. Debate is a great way
to learn how to study both sides of an argument and understand them,
both their strengths and their weaknesses. Last but not least, in my
perfect world, there would also be requisite classes on diversity, for
teachers and students, not just diversity training, but classes that
celebrate everyone’s unique ancestry and differences. Community
college is a perfect place to experience a tiny replica of the real
world, because we have people of every possible permutation here,
either teaching or attending.
Miscellaneous (which goes to my comment above about things it would be
nice for instructors to know, in my perfect world…and some of what I
have learned so far at the Adjunct Academy currently being taught at
HCC). Things I hear teachers/instructors say all the time and their
rebuttal: the students don’t listen, the students are lazy, the
students aren’t paying attention…
Myth: The best way to teach is to give information in a well-planned
lecture.
Truth: We remember 10 to 20 percent of what we hear. If we want
someone to "hear" something, we lecture. If we want students to
"learn," we need to work as a guide on the side and involve them.
Myth: If we'd only listen, we'd remember more.
Truth: We learn and remember 80 to 90 percent of what we do and say.
In order to learn anything well, we need to talk about it with each
other and do it a number of times.
The end…
Please, everyone comment on something – whichever of these, or some
other matter, seems worth your two cents.
Shannon Stoney
Dec 8, 2009, 7:11:35 PM12/8/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
> s. In a perfect world, we are all here because we love
> teaching. In the real world, I suspect some of us are here for other
> reasons.
--shannon
Ronald Foster
Dec 11, 2009, 3:15:43 PM12/11/09
to hccs_se_wri...@googlegroups.com
(2) Students whose writing/learning skills seem seriously inadequate
for the task they are attempting. (Consider this different from
"learning disability" -- the student in this case has perhaps fallen
through the cracks in the system). Given that we help whoever comes in
the door, how do we best offer help when one or two tutoring sessions
might not be enough?
A. Certainly patience is the key here. I know I get very frustrated
when I can't figure out what the student is trying to say. Often,
I will ask them to just look at me - not at their paper - and tell
me in their own words. As they come up with statements, we write
them down, and I help them form good sentences, then paragraphs.
Once we get a few paragraphs put together, we start working on a
thesis. I also try to tell them how important it is sound
professional, both in speech and writing.
(3) ESL, as an ongoing theme: Did you try anything new, or learn
anything new about helping students who are non-native English
speakers, or who might be "Generation 1.5" speakers?
I'm finding that two ares that are very tough for them are articles
and prepositions. Often, a little training on the use of 'of,' 'for,'
'with,' 'about' and a few others clears up a lot of the mystery for
them. I also pose three commands:
1. Go get me 'a' pencil.
2. Go get me 'the' pencil.
3. Go get me pencils.
They usually seem to understand the differences here pretty well; they
just needed to learn how to apply them.
(13) Do we need a cell phone policy? What other annoyances did you
experience?
A. I find that, for the most part, they realize that answering their
cell during a session is not appropriate and apologize. They might
occasionally ask to 'take a second' to address a family member who
might need help. As long as it's VERY brief, I have no problem.
Every now and then, however, I get the student who texts during the
session without mentioning it, as though they expect me to keep working
on their paper while they text. This is when I tend to 'come down' on
them a little and gently remind them that I am not there to waste my time
while they text.
(14) Have you had a look at any of the following, lately: Peer
Centered, Praxis, The Writing Center Journal, The Writing Lab
Newsletter, or WCenter (the listserv for Writing Center people)? Did
you read anything of especial value?
(15) …anything else?
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