The Squeaky Wheel

[Geo]

This post is actually related to (and more or less a continuation of) the
"Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Agreements" posts (see
http://tinyurl.com/mb8elv ).

A few times last month Kathy Ball alluded to "the squeaky wheel" in her
responses to Jim Warren about the Harmony Horse Amenity. Here are some
excerpts ( see http://tinyurl.com/nzzwze ):

If given the opportunity to join in the exclusive horse
deal i would have done as another harmony resident
declined because of the unfairness of the proposition
because it is not getting us a reputable facility and
may even be hampering it since the developer has
obviously quieted the squeaky wheel that matters.

...

Ultimately the agreement was made by the developer
..... but what made a multimillion dollar developer
hand over a 100+ acres to a few people who requested
it?? what really was behind the decision. that's all
the george wants to know and some othe people who are
residents in harmony. and why has it stagnated with
just a few people and not grown to accommadate others?
... the agreement was the responsibility of both the
boarders and the developers. the developer after much
persuasion made an offer and the boarders accepted.

...

because the squeaky wheel is quiet and the developer
has no worries or interest in researching

So who do you suppose "the squeaky wheel" is in Kathy's posts? Is it David
Leeman? I don't think so.

I'm guessing that "the squeaky wheel" is Kerul Kassel, David's wife and now
a CDD Supervisor in Harmony.

How do I know this? Amazingly because I was able to dig up emails from
almost 4 years ago! They were sent directly to me (among others) by Kerul
Kassel herself. I had almost forgotten about them. These emails are
consistent with what Kathy has written. They are also consistent with the
course that Harmony has taken since.

Kerul's emails also directly contradict recent statements made by her
husband, David Leeman.

On 8/26/2009 Dave wrote this (see http://tinyurl.com/mruvrz ):

So instead of saying that I wouldn't join you because I
thought your strategy was stupid, your tactics
obnoxious, that your actions were counterproductive,
and that I thought you were a self righteous blow-
hard, I tried to be non confrontational and said "I
can't".

Then on 8/29/2009 he wrote this (see http://tinyurl.com/nvnjk7 ):

Just for the record, we have no inside information or
special knowledge that would be, in your words, "quite
a story". As it turns out Kerul and I both had a long
conversation with a reporter from The Sentinel. Mine
lasted a little over an hour. I think hers was a
similar length. We told the real story, the good and
the bad. The result? No story in The Sentinel.

And this on 8/31/2009 ( see http://tinyurl.com/naarvm ):

Jim, there is one of the six families who shares (some
say initiated) George's idea that we sold out our
neighbors. They also were vocal critics of the Lentzs,
especially Martha.

See the emails below. They include the attached "Letter to Starwood" edited
by Kerul Kassel. To avoid possible legal implications (as Kerul suggested),
I blacked-out the names of the people involved. I have no personal knowledge
of the events and circumstances described since I wasn't a direct witness,
but apparently Kerul and the others were. At the time I asked that my name
be removed before sending the letter to Bob Geimer since I only knew the
facts depicted from what I had been told by the others.

What Kerul writes can clearly be interpreted as bold criticism of the
developer and The Harmony Institute (and therefore Jim and Martha Lentz).
Kerul even suggests that "intimating the strong possibility some of the more
unsavory allegations that they might want to investigate ... might even be
more effective that stating our beliefs outright" and "Starwood would be
more responsive to intimations of impropriety and possible illegal
activities, and how that might affect their investment". Very tricky Kerul!

So contrary to what David wrote, apparently his wife's "tactics" are even
more "obnoxious" than mine. All I do is speak and write openly about what I
believe the developer has done wrong in Harmony (with documentation), while
Kerul has apparently been secretly threatening the developer with hints of
exposing "possible mental stability and questionable health, shady Institute
dealings that have been camouflaged or swept under the rug ... that may well
affect Starwood's investment risk".

David also stated "for the record" that he and Kerul have "no inside
information". If this isn't inside information, what is? This is reminiscent
of the question posed some time ago 'If the $20,000 in horse boarding is not
a "gift" from the developer, what is it?' to which Kerul also responded on
the record (at a CDD meeting) that she "has not received a gift from the
developer".

Dave also implied that only "one of the six families ... were vocal critics
of the Lentzs, especially Martha" whereas the actual documented evidence
shows that not 1 but at least 5 of the 6 families (including Kerul's family)
were vocal critics of the former developer and his wife.

The facts don't lie. So once again, David Leeman proves that while he has
plenty of bluster he has little credibility.

I think Kathy now has an answer to her questions "What made a multimillion
dollar developer hand over a 100+ acres to a few people who requested it?"
and "What really was behind the decision?".

Any questions Jim?

[James Warren]

Yeah just one.

Why do you keeping posting the same old information George?

[gad...@aol.com]

because it is pertinent to original topic of thread    which isn't really the horses or there boarding is it...

[James Warren]

It's pertinent once, maybe twice....

 

But this is ridiculous.............. Something new please now, as we all know this is not going to get fixed.

 

 

Actions speak louder than words....

---

From: "gad...@aol.com" <gad...@aol.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2009 9:21:04 AM
Subject: [HarmonyFL:656] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[Geo]

Oops! CORRECTION!

It's a good thing that I caught this before Dave's laser focus once
again homes in on the most critical point of this "Squeaky Wheel"
post. No doubt his trigger fingers were gearing up to fire off another
"I say you lie!" (see http://tinyurl.com/mpejgr ).

I mistakenly wrote:

I was able to dig up emails from almost 4 years ago!

I should have written:

I was able to dig up emails from more than 4 years ago!

Once again I stand corrected Dave.

>  Email 1.JPG
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>  Email 2.JPG
> 113KViewDownload
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>  Letter to Starwood Pg1.JPG
> 258KViewDownload
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>  Letter to Starwood Pg2.JPG
> 297KViewDownload
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>  Letter to Starwood Pg3.JPG
> 273KViewDownload
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>  Letter to Starwood Pg4.JPG
> 103KViewDownload

[Dave Leeman]

George, you again make my points for me. If anyone reads the
documents posted, they will find I have been truthful.
First the e-mail. The e-mail is from Kerul Kassel to who? To Joan
Pancratz. What does Kerul say? That she is "uncomfortable making
allegations that cannot be proven". Her supposedly "obnoxious
tactics" consist not of "secretly threatening the developer with
hints" of various bad things, but of trying to tone down the letter to
Starwood from outright slanderous allegations to the suggestion that
there are things they might want to look into.
Next you post the, in your words, "Letter to Starwood edited by Kerul
Kassel". This dishonestly implies that Kerul got a bunch of
suggestions from others, and put together a letter for others to
sign. This is obviously NOT the truth. What you post is only a
draft, written by Joan Pancratz with Kerul's comments right in with
the text. Joan Pancratz is the person who makes inflammatory and
unproven allegations. Kerul writes comments such as, "Do we have
proof of this?" and "Are we sure (that's how that happened)? Your
statement that "What Kerul writes can clearly be interpreted as bold
criticism of the developer" is false. Kerul did not write the letter,
Joan Pancratz did. So Kerul is not, as you say, "boldly criticising"
the developer. All of the "bold criticism" was written by Joan
Pancratz. Kerul is attempting to add the voice of reason to a bunch
of otherwise over the top and unprovable accusations. So what you say
is false. What actually happened is that, when the stables were
closed, a bunch of people got together and said, "what do we do now?"
One of the things was write a letter to Starwood. Joan wrote the
letter. Kerul attempted to get it toned down to reasonable
statements. Now we come to the important part that you left out,
George. Kerul thought that the final letter was still unreasonable,
so SHE ASKED THAT HER NAME BE REMOVED. So not only did Kerul NOT
write ANY of the critical statements in the letter, when the letter
was actually sent, (and you make no claim that the letter was sent, so
we're not sure if it was) Kerul's name was NOT ON IT. So as it turns
out, your inflammatiory tactics were not for us, and we didn't
participate in them. Just as I said.
While we're here, remember that Joan wrote the allegations, Kerul said
we have no proof.
Here are your words:

"David also stated "for the record" that he and Kerul have "no inside
information". If this isn't inside information, what is?"

George you again dishonestly omit part of my statement because it
doesn't fit your narrative. I did not say that we have no inside
information, I said we don't have any inside information that would
be a "big story". There's a big difference in those two statements.
Take a good look at the letter and the e-mail. All the allegations
were written by Joan. Kerul writes that we have no first hand
knowledge of the accusations in that letter. I personally never
witnessed any extra marital affairs, alcohol abuse, gifts for the
trainer, or misalocation of funds. All of the "dirt" in the letter
were rumors spread by someone else. So the sum total of my "inside
information" that I had personally witnessed and could testify to, was
that the person whose name is blacked out didn't know as much about
running a stable as she thought she did. Boy that's front page news.
So your contention that we had inside information that could cause
trouble is false as well. My statements are true. We have no "inside
information" that would make a story the newspapers would be
interested in.
Next, your "squeaky wheel theory is also proved to be all wet.
Notice the names on the list.
Joan Pancratz
John Orlando
Carla Poirier
Jay Woolridge
Cyndi Conklin
Diana Bohman
Kerul Kassel
Lester Mcneely
John Pozzi
George Schiro
We now know that yours and Kerul's names were not on the letter. If
the developer chose us to shut us up, why did he choose us, who did
not sign this inflammatory letter, and leave off many of the people
who did? Let's look at the list of names and compare it to the list
of six families who were actually offered the lost field for their
horses.
Joan Pancratz had horse, not in Harmony
John Orlando had horse, not in Harmony
Carla Poirier had no horses
Jay Woolridge had horses, not in Harmony
Cyndi Conklin had horses in Harmony
Diana Bohman had horse, not in Harmony (I'm
not sure about this one)
Lester Mcneely had horses in Harmony
John Pozzi had no horses

The six families:
Joan Pancratz had horse, not in Harmony
John Orlando had horses, not in Harmony
Cyndi Conklin had horses in Harmony
Lester McNeely had harses in Harmony
Kerul Kassel had horses in Harmony
Dave Gdyka had no horses

So we see that on each list, some people had horses not in Harmony,
some had Horses in Harmony, and some had no horses at all. Why were
some who signed the letter offered the Lost Field deal and others
weren't? Why were some who didn't sign the letter and had no horses
offered the Lost Field deal? You'll notice, of course, that everyone
who had horses in Harmony as of Dec 05, was allowed to keep them here,
whether they signed the letter or not. So it's obvious to anyone with
a brain, that we were included because we had horses in Harmony at the
time, not because of this letter, or any other supposed criticism of
the developer. You still have not answered this question George. Do
you actually think there was a meeting where Starwood people discussed
how much noisy residents could harm their bottom line? Do you
actually think that they then decided that those six families, and
only those six families were important enough to bribe or threaten,
and that all their problems would be solved if it worked? That no one
from Starwood would notice that the list of six families didn't match
the list of residents willing to speak out? Also, why is this coming
out only now? Why did no one say anything about this way back when it
happened? Joan Pancratz, John Orlando, and Dave (& Patti) Gdyka had
no horses in Harmony. Why did none of them speak up? John Orlando is
on the list that signed the letter, why would he keep silent about
this? Because there was no threat. There was no bribe. No, as I
said before, Starwood has a reason for letting us keep our horses
here, but it has nothing to do with our silence.

Kathy Ball's words:

"If given the opportunity to join in the exclusive horse deal i would
have done as another harmony resident declined because of the
unfairness of the proposition because it is not getting us a reputable
facility and may even be hampering it since the developer has
obviously quieted the squeaky wheel that matters."

My response.
A key point here is to remember that "another Harmony resident" said
she was willing to bring her horse in to lost field. I went with her
when she went out and inspected the property. It was only when she
found out that she would have to share the pasture with us, or spend
her own time, effort, and money to put up her own fence and other
facilities so she could be separate from the rest us, and that she
would have to pay her fair share of the initial outlay, that she
decided that it was unfair and she would not participate. She then
lied to others and said we were trying to prevent her from joining our
"exclusive" club, and at the same time we were ripping her off by
charging an entrance fee. Never mind that if you are charging a fee
(which we weren't) to get in, you can't be keeping people out, or
conversely, if you're keeping people out, how can you charge them a
fee to get in? Also Ms Ball stated publicly at a town meeting at
Greensides, that the Lost Field facilities (or lack thereof) were
substandard and she would not bring her horse there even if allowed
to. So now, years later, she says she wouldn't because it's unfair.
Forgive me if I'm less than impressed by her statement.
I have also addressed the "squeaky wheel" issue above. There were
plenty of "squeaky wheels" who were left out of the Lost Field deal.
Kathy Ball's words:

"Ultimately the agreement was made by the developer ..... but what
made a multimillion dollar developer hand over a 100+ acres to a few
people who requested it?? what really was behind the decision. that's
all the george wants to know and some othe people who are residents in
harmony. and why has it stagnated with just a few people and not grown
to accommadate others? ... the agreement was the responsibility of
both the boarders and the developers. the developer after much
persuasion made an offer and the boarders accepted."

My response:
I don't know the answer to those questions, but don't forget two
things.
1. George posted that he tried to get Starwood to keep the horses
here. Who else besides him talked to Bob Geimer after the Dec 7th,
'05 town meeting and asked him to change his mind? Remember, at that
meeting, Bob Evans said the horses had to leave Harmony. We were
out. It was only later, after Geroge spoke to Bob Geimer, that they
changed their mind. "The developer after much persuasion (by George)
made an offer and the boarders accepted." So we have George to thank
for this special deal. Thanks George. Good job.
And by the way, this also goes to show that the "squeaky wheel" theory
is baloney. At the Dec 7th, '05 meeting, Bob Evans stated that the
horses must leave Harmony. So they were ready to toss us all out,
squeaky wheels or not. It was only George's (and perhaps some others,
who else has said they spoke to Bob Geimer?) convincing arguments to
Bob Geimer that changed their minds. Otherwise they would have tossed
us all out, including the "squeaky wheels".
Two. The offer we accepted included Lost Field being open to
everyone. It was only later that it was changed to only the six
families. So the original deal we accepted was fair.
George's words:

So contrary to what David wrote, apparently his wife's "tactics" are
even more "obnoxious" than mine. All I do is speak and write openly
about what I believe the developer has done wrong in Harmony (with
documentation), while Kerul has apparently been secretly threatening
the developer with hints of exposing "possible mental stability and
questionable health, shady Institute dealings that have been
camouflaged or swept under the rug ... that may well affect Starwood's
investment risk".

My response:
Contrary to what George wrote, no one's tactics are more obnoxious
than his. Kerul (see above) has not been threatening the developer,
either secretly or publicly. His "documentation" was that the horses
were secret when they weren't, that an 18 acre pasture was more than
100 acres, that a tree was in his back yard when it was on CDD
property, and that his efforts got it moved to the dog park when in
fact his efforts were to have it not moved to the dog park. Also, his
statement that "It is clearly demonstrated that Kerul and Dave have
done nothing to get other horses into Harmony" had no documentation
whatsoever, and was really another case of his posting his opinion as
fact. Presemtly, his "documentation" of Kerul and I criticising the
developer consists of a letter that we didn't write, containing
accusations we tried to get removed (because we could not prove them)
and from which Kerul had her name removed. His "documentation" of our
"inside information" is the same letter, which contains allegations we
did not make, of things we could not prove, because they are things we
did not witness. The only thing George documents is his stupidity,
dishonesty, and his inability to separate fact from fiction. Also,
without a doubt, writing "openly about what I believe the developer
has done wrong" is not all George does. He also slanders his
neighbors with no real evidence. Only speculation, supposition,
innuendo, and sometimes outright lies.
George has never answered these inconvenient questions.
Because our horses are in Harmony and others aren't:
1. Who is worse off and how? He avoided this one previously by
claiming that people needed anonymity. You don't have to name names,
George. Just say person X is worse off and this is how.
2. Who in Harmony would be better off and how if our horses weren't
here? Same as above. No names needed.

Finally, all these posts beg the question, what is the result George
is seeking? What exactly does he expect to happen? If our horses
leave Harmony, will the barn get built? Will others be let in? What
possible result that will improve life in this town can be expected to
come about? The only one I can think of is that he'll actually quit
posting. George, can you tell us how we'll all be better off when
you're done?

> > 103KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Geo]

That's almost 3000 words Dave! Have you ever noticed how the volume of smoke
you blow varies with the amount of documentation previously posted?

"they will find I have been truthful"

Not likely. As Jim wrote, perhaps you should just let people make up their
own minds Dave. Anyone reading the emails as well as the letter will see the
truth on their own. Here are the salient points.

A letter to Starwood was written by Joan. Then Kerul edited it by adding her
own words. Kerul also wrote "this is a fabulously crafted letter" and added
"I am uncomfortable about making allegations we cannot prove, and putting
ourselves in a position of liability for slander". This means that Kerul was
pretty much in agreement about what Joan had written. She just did not have
the fortitude to put what she knew to be the truth into writing because it
could not be proven. Kerul feared that she might be sued if she spoke the
truth openly.

Kerul reinforced this view with "we certainly all believe *** has/had a
drinking problem and had an affair with ***, we don't have photos or breath
tests, or an expert's testimony".

Kerul never wrote "I disagree with you Joan. I think that this is a tissue
of lies". Kerul never wrote "I completely disagree with your approach and I
think that you are totally wrong to do this". Instead she wrote "I am
uncomfortable about making allegations we cannot prove".

This all means that Kerul knows full well what went on in Harmony all those
years ago (as presumably you do too Dave, since you live in the same house).
She also knows full well what has been going on in Harmony ever since. She
just doesn't want to talk about it (or write about it) openly.

While some people have the strength of character to sign their name to what
they believe in, others sneak around behind the scenes with similar beliefs,
yet they lack the integrity to come forth and be heard when it really
counts.

This is just an example of people who lack the courage to do the right
thing.

[James Warren]

While some people have the strength of character to sign their name to what
they believe in, others sneak around behind the scenes with similar beliefs,
yet they lack the integrity to come forth and be heard when it really
counts.

Yes they do George. You are right. I totally agree with you on this one...
Where are your sources again??????? Oh yeah....

"While some people have the strength of character to sign their name to what
they believe in, others sneak around behind the scenes with similar beliefs,
yet they lack the integrity to come forth and be heard when it really
counts."

Yeah? What has this achieved George? Where are those people you speak about?
Oh yeah they are sneaking around behind the scences, giving you information.... Hmm good point George.

George you have to agree that Dave has written a pretty good response, and that you can read "I am uncomfortable about making allegations we cannot prove, and putting ourselves in a position of liability for slander" in two ways. You read it as "Kerul was

pretty much in agreement about what Joan had written. She just did not have the fortitude to put what she knew to be the truth into writing because it could not be proven. Kerul feared that she might be sued if she spoke the truth openly".

But others and I will put myself down on this will read it as "I disagree with you Joan on this appraoch". However it does not make her a bad person. It provides evidence that she has integrity. That she was not willing to put personal issues in where they dont belong.
Unfortunatly, George you have shown time and time again that YOU have no integrity, as you continue to slander and name call when people have had the balls to disagree with your postings. So please dont mention integrity when you yourself shown none.
Dont keep making out that this is a one sided affair George. Be a little more positive and show that you have no bias.

Again, there is no smoking gun, no squeakly wheel. This issue has run it's course.

PS. You still did not answer dave's questions. Why?

 

 

----- Original Message ----
From: Geo <IIDIMG...@spammotel.com>

[Geo]

"That she was not willing to put personal issues in where they dont belong."

Kerul was unwilling to sign her name to the list of personal issues while
others among the horse folks agreed that personal issues were germane to the
problems with the horse situation in Harmony. They apparently signed their
names while Kerul did not. IMHO, they showed some courage while Kerul did
not. I have little doubt that Kerul and Dave have made the personal issues
known to the developer in other ways not open to public scrutiny.

As I have written before, you continue to be a dishonest broker in all of
this Jim. You let your personal friendship with Dave and Kerul cloud your
perspective. You have already stated that you believe that lying is normal
and apparently OK with you. Dave has also stated outright that he is a liar
and you are obviously OK with that too. In your view, Dave's "white lies"
and omissions are OK, while my claims (documented by the facts) are somehow
lies that are not OK for open discussion.

I beg your pardon Jim, but what the hell are you doing here? Who are you to
interject yourself into all of this anyway? You weren't even living here
when all this horse stuff started. You have no documentation to support
either side of this discussion. All you know about the horse issue is what
has been written here or whatever Dave and Kerul have been telling you. So
what good are you? You serve merely as a distraction. All you do is add more
smoke to David's bullshit stories. You are part of the reason why this has
dragged on for so long.

"So please dont mention integrity when you yourself shown none. ... Be a

little more positive and show that you have no bias."

LOL! Jim, you're certainly not one to speak of integrity.

As stated, you really have nothing of value to offer here. All you have is
your own biased opinions. You have never added a single fact to help clarify
this discussion. All you do is cloud the issues. You really should quit
while you are a behind Jim.

[James Warren]

Kerul was unwilling to sign her name to the list of personal issues while
others among the horse folks agreed that personal issues were germane to the
problems with the horse situation in Harmony. They apparently signed their
names while Kerul did not. IMHO, they showed some courage while Kerul did
not. I have little doubt that Kerul and Dave have made the personal issues
known to the developer in other ways not open to public scrutiny.

 - What a load of bull you write!!! Do you read it? In one post you say kerul has no integrity, now you post she is unwilling to sign her name to the list of personal issues??? That my firend shows she has integrity, unlike you who belives name calling and slander is "OK"

As I have written before, you continue to be a dishonest broker in all of

this Jim In what way george? I am only posting IMHO.
Is that not how you are posting, by beliveing a disguntled ex-harmony horse boarder??? Come on George.
The people you get the info from have not boarded their horses here since this isuse started. they take no part in communial life here.
Why would you believe or evn bother posting what they think????
I'm here, if you don't like it, beacuse I post what is real, tough..........

"So please dont mention integrity when you yourself shown none. ... Be a
little more positive and show that you have no bias."

Really George? Please show this. Remeber people in glass house shouldn't throw stones

As stated, you really have nothing of value to offer here. All you have is
your own biased opinions. You have never added a single fact to help clarify
this discussion. All you do is cloud the issues. You really should quit
while you are a behind Jim

Is your forum not a public forum anymore George? Are you going to cry and take away the ball, because what I post is reality and shows that you are a one sided two faced poor billy no-mates, who wont accept that sometimes he is wrong??? boo hoo
So bar me...............

[gad...@aol.com]

I hate when you guys name call   especially when it includes me.... I am not a disgruntled previous horse boarder  i only want what's fair for the community, to have a facility that accomodates the whole community not just an elite few....as far as enjoying communal living in harmony tried it didn't work didn't like the rules at the time.  now it's hard to leave at 6:30 Am in morning and return at 8:30-9:00 pm every night to partake in some of the new activities. As for signing letter about allegations, i'm right there i wouldn't either unless i personally witnessed behavior.... 

-----Original Message-----
From: James Warren <jm_w...@yahoo.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

[gad...@aol.com]

And the other disgruntled horse boarders had every right to be angry and want to see the original dream of harmony come to fruition unfortunately the original concept is so lost from the beginning it is sad. 

-----Original Message-----
From: James Warren <jm_w...@yahoo.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:20 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:668] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[Geo]

"Are you going to cry and take away the ball, because what I post is
reality and shows that you are a one sided two faced poor billy no-
mates, who wont accept that sometimes he is wrong??? boo hoo
So bar me"

LOL

That's OK buddy, you keep posting away. Just don't whine if you get
ignored.

> statement that...
>
> read more »

[Dave Leeman]

George's words:

That's almost 3000 words Dave! Have you ever noticed how the volume of
smoke you blow varies with the amount of documentation previously
posted?

My reply:
George, you are wrong so much and so often, it takes a lot of writing
to cover it all. What I've noticed is that you mention how many words
I write when you need to ignore inconvenient questions I ask, or when
your arguments are proven false.
So let's get back to those questions you never answer.
1. Do you or do you not think that Starwood had a meeting in which
they discussed how much residents could harm their bottom line?
2. If so, do you really think they decided to head that off by
offering a deal for silence to the six families and none of the other
squeaky wheels?
3. Why would Starwood ask some to keep silent and not others?
4. Why were all the horses told to leave Harmony on Dec 7th '05,
squeaky wheels or not?
5.Who in Harmony is worse off, and how?
6. Who in Harmony would be better off and how, if our horses were not
here?
7.Why is it OK for you to take your name off of a letter to Starwood
that makes allegations you did not witness, but when Kerul does it,
she lacks courage and integrity? You seem to be able to make bold
unproven statements where we are concerned, why not in the letter to
Starwood?
Here is just one recent one.

"I have little doubt that Kerul and Dave have made the personal issues
known to the developer in other ways not open to public scrutiny."

You have little doubt. How is that possible, George? Where is your
famed documentation of this claim? Please tell us all exactly why
there is "little doubt" in what passes for your mind that we have made
these "issues known to the developer in other ways". Please specify
what those other ways are, and how you know about them.
8. Why does Kerul lack courage and integrity when she refuses to go
public, but it's OK for your unnamed source to remain completely in
the background? Why are the people in Harmony who are supposedly
worse off because our horses are here, but unwilling to come forward
not lacking in courage and integrity?
9. George's words:

In your view, Dave's "white lies" and omissions are OK, while my
claims (documented by the facts) are somehow lies that are not OK for
open discussion.

George, why is the converse true? Why are all our contentions false,
smoke, or lies, while you and your source are only truthful? Why do
we have an evil agenda, but you and your source are pure as the driven
snow?
Also, let's once again go over your claim that everything you post is
"documented". Your statements that the horses were secret was false,
they weren't, and you provided no "documentation that they were. You
claimed (with no documentation) that an 18 acre pasture was more than
100 acres, that a tree was in your back yard when it was on CDD
property, and that your efforts got it moved to the dog park when in
fact your efforts were to have it not moved to the dog park. Also,
your statement that "It is clearly demonstrated that Kerul and Dave
have done nothing to get other horses into Harmony" had no
documentation whatsoever, and was really another case of your posting
your opinion as fact. Presently, your "documentation" of Kerul and I

criticising the developer consists of a letter that we didn't write,
containing accusations we tried to get removed (because we could not

prove them) and from which Kerul had her name removed, and your idea
that, since our name wasn't on the letter, we somehow made these
accusations to them privately, which of course has no documantation at
all. Your "documentation" of our "inside information" is the same
letter, which contains allegations we did not make, of things we could
not prove, because they are things we did not witness. I'd quit
mentioning documentation if I were you, George. It's making you look
bad.

10. Please explain how, after months and months of extolling your
Google group as the only true public forum, saying your group is like
a town meeting because anyone can read or post here, saying the Yahoo
group is secret but your group isn't, that the horses were secret
until you wrote about them "in this public forum", "this public forum"
now morphs into "a forum still known to only a tiny minority of
residents and not easily found by anyone else". When it's good for
you, your forum is the only true "public" forum. The other forum is
secret, this one is like a town meeting. When it's good for me, this
forum is "hard to find" and "known to only a tiny minority". How does
that work, George?
11. George's words:
"No, this is no game. And it is not funny at all. This is serious
business. This is about what really goes on behind the scenes in a
community. This is about exposing what is wrong here and eventually
trying to get it changed."
George, please explain why, if you are trying to expose "what is wrong
here" and get it changed, you are wasting your time posting in "a
forum still known to only a tiny minority of residents and not easily
found by anyone else". Shouldn't you be posting to more than "a tiny
minority"? Shouldn't your message be easy to find?
12. What is the final result you are seeking? The barn getting
built? Other horse owners allowed in? Spell it out for us, and show
us your plan for accomplishing that result.

> > Pancratz.  What does Kerul say?  That she is "uncomfortable making- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[gad...@aol.com]

how could starwood keep you quiet and not others?  because they have something to take away from you...the others they didnt have anything that they could take away.

how is it hurting the community.....  by not developing an equine facility to accommodate all instead of keeping the original people ( who aren't even the original people involved) happy and stopping them from causeing anymore dissent whether it be actually a real threat or not to a multimillion dollar company.  they don't have to swat the pesty fly anymore.  And it has hurt the community by the previous dissent it has caused and the loss of a few residents who came here for the original harmony concept.

BTW this is not a difficult site to find all you have to do is key into harmony fl and sign up....believe me if i can do it anyone can.  there just isn't any interest in the ongoing subject or ignorance of it by the current residents. all the ones who cared and it benefitted are gone except me and i'm stuck here for the next few years.  martha and jim had a beautiful concept when they built, unfortunately they couldn't pull it off and sold off to a multimillion dollar corporation who is acting out the concept for the time being. 

why would starwood give you the land free?  even harmony institute charged a monthly boarding fee and it wasn't because it offered any more than what the current facility offers.  and although you keep saying i t is only 18 acres of pasture land you have the rest of the hundred acres to trail ride..have vegetable gardens etc.   so it's not only 18 acres....have you any idea how much it costs to lease even the 18 acres with nothing else added in?  how is that equitable to the rest of the community?  what if joe resident wanted 2 acres for storage, how is it the developer won't give it to him    or a group wants a community garden and the developer won't give up the acreage for a community endeavor?  I just find the current situation completely unfair and suspicious...although i have no first hand knowledge of the specifics in the agreement  to me something seems a little hinky about the whole thing. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Leeman <RescueG...@onebox.com>
To: HarmonyFL <harm...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:32 pm
Subject: [HarmonyFL:672] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

George's words:
That's almost 3000 words Dave! Have you ever noticed how the volume of
smoke you blow varies with the amount of documentation previously
posted?
My reply:
George, you are wrong so much and so often, it takes a lot20of writing
to cover it all.  What I've noticed is that you mention how many words
I write when you need to ignore inconvenient questions I ask, or when
your arguments are proven false.
So let's get back to those questions you never answer.
1. Do you or do you not think that Starwood had a meeting in which
they discussed how much residents could harm their bottom line?
2.  If so, do you really think they decided to head that off by
offering a deal for silence to the six families and none of the other
squeaky wheels?
3. Why would Starwood ask some to keep silent and not others?
4. Why were all the horses told to leave Harmony on Dec 7th '05,
squeaky wheels or not?
5.Who in Harmony is worse off, and how?
6. Who in Harmony would be better off and how, if our horses were not
here?
7.Why is it OK for you to take your name off of a letter to Starwood
that makes allegations you did not witness, but when Kerul does it,
she lacks courage and integrity?   You seem to be able to make bold
unproven statements where we are concerned,  why not in the letter to
Starwood?
Here is just one recent one.
"I have little doubt that Kerul and Dave have made the personal issues
known to the developer in other ways not open to public scrutiny."
You have little doubt.  How is that possible, George?  Where is your
famed documentation of this claim?  Please tell us all exactly why
there is "little doubt" in what passes f
or your mind that we have made
these "issues known to the developer in other ways".  Please specify
what those other ways are, and how you know about them.
8.  Why does Kerul lack courage and integrity when she refuses to go
public, but it's OK for your unnamed source to remain completely in
the background?  Why are the people in Harmony who are supposedly
worse off because our horses are here, but unwilling to come forward
not lacking in courage and integrity?
9. George's words:
In your view, Dave's "white lies" and omissions are OK, while my
claims (documented by the facts) are somehow lies that are not OK for
open discussion.
George, why is the converse true?  Why are all our contentions false,
smoke, or lies, while you and your source are only truthful?  Why do
we have an evil agenda, but you and your source are pure as the driven
snow?
Also, let's once again go over your claim that everything you post is
"documented".  Your statements that the horses were secret was false,
they weren't, and you provided no "documentation that they were.  You
claimed (with no documentation) that an 18 acre pasture was more than
100 acres, that a tree was in your back yard when it was on CDD
property, and that your efforts got it moved to the dog park when in
fact your efforts were to have it not moved to the dog park. Also,
your statement that "It is clearly demonstrated that Kerul and Dave
have done nothing to get other horses 
into Harmony" had no
documentation whatsoever, and was really another case of your posting
your opinion as fact. Presently, your "documentation" of Kerul and I
criticising the developer consists of a letter that we didn't write,
containing accusations we tried to get removed (because we could not
prove them) and from which Kerul had her name removed, and your idea
that, since our name wasn't on the letter, we somehow made these
accusations to them privately, which of course has no documantation at
all.  Your "documentation" of our "inside information" is the same
letter, which contains allegations we did not make, of things we could
not prove, because they are things we did not witness.  I'd quit
mentioning documentation if I were you, George.  It's making you look
bad.

10. Please explain how, after months and months of extolling your
Google group as the only true public forum, saying your group is like
a town meeting because anyone can read or post here, saying the Yahoo
group is secret but your group isn't, that the horses were secret
until you wrote about them "in this public forum", "this public forum"
now morphs into "a forum still known to only a tiny minority of
residents and not easily found by anyone else". When it's good for
you, your forum is the only true "public" forum. The other forum is
secret, this one is like a town meeting. When it's good for me, this
forum is "hard to find" and "known to only a tiny minority". How do
es
that work, George?
11. George's words:
"No, this is no game. And it is not funny at all. This is serious
business.  This is about what really goes on behind the scenes in a
community. This is about exposing what is wrong here and eventually
trying to get it changed."
George, please explain why, if you are trying to expose "what is wrong
here" and get it changed, you are wasting your time posting in "a
forum still known to only a tiny minority of residents and not easily
found by anyone else".  Shouldn't you be posting to more than "a tiny
minority"?  Shouldn't your message be easy to find?
12. What is the final result you are seeking?  The barn getting
built?  Other horse owners allowed in?  Spell it out for us, and show
us your plan for accomplishing that result.


On Sep 9, 8:18 pm, Geo <IIDIMGRLA...@spammotel.com> wrote:
> "Are you going to cry and take away the ball, because what I post is
> reality and shows that you are a one sided two faced poor billy no-
> mates, who wont accept that sometimes he is wrong??? boo hoo
> So bar me"
>
> LOL
>
> That's OK buddy, you keep posting away. Just don't whine if you get
> ignored.
>
> On Sep 9, 9:20 am, James Warren <jm_war...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Kerul was unwilling to sign her name to the list of personal
 issues while
> > others among the horse folks agreed that personal issues were germane to the
> > problems with the horse situation in Harmony. They apparently signed their
> > names while Kerul did not. IMHO, they showed some courage while Kerul did
> > not. I have little doubt that Kerul and Dave have made the personal issues
> > known to the developer in other ways not open to public scrutiny.
> >  - What a load of bull you write!!! Do you read it? In one post you say 
kerul has no integrity, now you post she is unwilling to sign her name to the 
list of personal issues??? That my firend shows she has integrity, unlike you 
who belives name calling and slander is "OK"
>
> > As I have written before, you continue to be a dishonest broker in all of
> > this Jim In what way george? I am only posting IMHO.
> > Is that not how you are posting, by beliveing a disguntled ex-harmony horse 
boarder??? Come on George.
> > The people you get the info from have not boarded their horses here since 
this isuse started. they take no part in communial life here.
> > Why would you believe or evn bother posting what they think????
> > I'm here, if you don't like it, beacuse I post what is real, tough..........
>
> > "So please dont mention integrity when you yourself shown none. ... Be a
> > little more positive and show that you have no bia
s."
> > Really George? Please show this. Remeber people in glass house shouldn't 
throw stones
>
> > As stated, you really have nothing of value to offer here. All you have is
> > your own biased opinions. You have never added a single fact to help clarify
> > this discussion. All you do is cloud the issues. You really should quit
> > while you are a behind Jim
> > Is your forum not a public forum anymore George? Are you going to cry and 
take away the ball, because what I post is reality and shows that you are a one 
sided two faced poor billy no-mates, who wont accept that sometimes he is 
wrong??? boo hoo
> > So bar me...............
>
> >  
>
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Geo <IIDIMGRLA...@spammotel.com>
> > To: harm...@googlegroups.com

[James Warren]

Maybe so, but they and you also had the opportunity to join. Coming back later after the decison is made, you can't then go blaming the people that stayed!!

That makes you dis-gruntled when you then come back in and complain and say it's unfair.

 

 

---

From: "gad...@aol.com" <gad...@aol.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:14:08 AM
Subject: [HarmonyFL:670] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[James Warren]

But your not ignoring me are you?

[gad...@aol.com]

no they or at least i never had the opportunity to return neither did the others except for one resident who declined...jim you should really get your story straight   i didn't even know till after the fact there was an offer and there was no offer to me.  It was unfair from the get go not everyone was informed of the proceedings...

[James Warren]

Kathy,

 

 Read my post. It says you had the opportunity to join. Not you had the opportunity to come back and join. That was only offered to one family.

You stated yourself you rejected the offer as you did not like the facility.

 

My facts are staright thank you

 

 

---

From: "gad...@aol.com" <gad...@aol.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:09:45 PM
Subject: [HarmonyFL:678] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[gad...@aol.com]

for the safety of my horse and myself i left the harmony field.  at the point there was a possibility of a stables being set up on harmony and negotiations were ensuing with the developer it would have only been correct to involve everyone concerned including some that had chosen to leave because of previous conditions of field and management.  i was not even asked for input or included in any negotiations, in fact they were held in secret and the ones that were at the negotiations( people who weren't boarding at time) were there because the woolridges told them about the meetings  and as it stands now no   i would not put my horse in the field at harmony. but there is a need for a stables appropriately managed and facilities to benefit the boarders.

[gad...@aol.com]

bear in mind jim no offer was made...you seem to keep forgetting that  all was secret when it came to that point of reorginazation

-----Original Message-----
From: James Warren <jm_w...@yahoo.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 8:27 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:682] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[Mel...@aol.com]

Is there really a point to any of this?  There will never be an equine facility in Harmony and if, a big if, there was one I would never board my horses there just because this is what you would encounter...people who can't get along.

 

 

 

Melony Osterhout
321-508-5319
3332 Cat Brier Trail
Harmony, FL 34773

[gad...@aol.com]

it's sad isn't it?  :(

-----Original Message-----
From: Mel...@aol.com
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

[James Warren]

Kathy, we have been through this before. The issue has been discussed. if you knew about it, it was not a secret

 

 

---

From: "gad...@aol.com" <gad...@aol.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:04:59 AM
Subject: [HarmonyFL:688] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[James Warren]

Thanks Mel. My point exactly from the start. There is no point, but 2 people her on the forum keep harping on, and it is I agree very tiresome

 

Jim

---

From: "Mel...@aol.com" <Mel...@aol.com>
To: harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:49:13 AM

Subject: [HarmonyFL:689] Re: The Squeaky Wheel

[Geo]

Just in case there is any confusion, I don't think the "Mel" who Jim
is thanking is the same "Mel" who wrote "Shut up George!" earlier.
Please correct me if I am wrong on this Melony.

Actually, contrary to what Jim would like the casual reader to
believe, there really is a point to all of this. Jim knows what it is,
he's just not telling.

I know that I have taken the long road to get here, but the point will
be coming in just a few days. First I will sum up all of this horse
business, then will come the main point. After that I will be done.
And no one will be happier than me when this is finally laid to rest.

[James Warren]

"After that I will be done. And no one will be happier than me when this is finally laid to rest."

I doubt 2 things here George.
1. There will be a few people more happier
2. You wont shut up

 

----- Original Message ----
From: Geo <IIDIMG...@spammotel.com>

[Geo]

1. "There will be a few people more happier"

From you Jim, a more fitting retort I could not have composed myself!
LOL

2. "You wont shut up"

This is very true. I will never shut up Jim, especially when people
like you and Dave keep going out of your way to help me publish the
truth here. Your efforts are very much appreciated, sincerely. I
previously asked "What good are you?". But I must honestly say that
both you and Dave have indeed been helpful for inspiration and
motivation. I thank you for that.

As far as the horse stuff goes, as I said, I am done. I now have more
important things to do. If David seriously wants to rehash some of his
questions, several of which I believe I have already answered, I will
try to make myself available for that, within reason. But I suspect
that Dave likely no longer feels the need to start his own "Q & A"
since it will no longer serve to help muddy mine. We'll see.

My final post on the "Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A" is now out there.

My final post on the original "Conflict of Interest" issue, which
required the exposition of the Harmony Horse Amenity issue, will be
forthcoming tomorrow or the next day.

Thanks for your continued interest Jim. I think you are my biggest
fan! ;0)

[James Warren]

Thanks for your continued interest Jim. I think you are my biggest
fan! ;0)

Your very welcome...

----- Original Message ----
From: Geo <IIDIMG...@spammotel.com>
To: HarmonyFL <harm...@googlegroups.com>