by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only because
the up! software won't run on Linux,
if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the problem i
had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a week later
somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some "crappy speed up
my pc" program would get installed,
and the whole cycle started again,
the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
western digital ones
copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
peaking higher
I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
operating system
the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the linux
guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better crack
at it
with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying to
download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far far
>> far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows product
> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the default
> OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely. Almost all
> of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off the
>> shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the desktop is
>> surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are some simple
>> components that haven't been updated since 1991!
> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years. They
> had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being found
> for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people writing
> viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit to get
> the most possible returns from it.
>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic example,
>> this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if you're
>> transferring data across a usb link the operating system will usaully
>> struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty of
> devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a USB
> HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) gives
> us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
> sustained. Run the same numbers, we get 24MByte/s HDD's on USB 2.0 will sit
> around this number constantly. Hardly 10 - 15 percent of the available
> bandwidth.
>> and still the time remaining function of those little windows is
>> innaccurate after how many years?????
> Ever tried to do the math on this? Then add in the fact of if you are
> using a normal HDD you need to do multiple seeks across the disk, this adds
> to the time to do it. There is no ACCURATE way to work out the time to do
> this as there are so many thousands of variables that can affect it. Every
> OS has crappy estimation of time remaining.
>> the reason 100% don't use linux on their desktop computers is partially
>> because most users are conditioned from highschool that windows is the
>> "operating system" and that there is no other operating system other than
>> macos, it's a bit like religion
> I've used Windows and a lot of different flavours of linux over the years.
> For servers and the like I refuse to use windows, as a server shouldn't
> need a GUI, but for general desktop tasks. Windows is still the easiest to
> get going and have working on a new machine in a matter of hours.
>> the physiological mechanism is called a duality, eg good vs evil, black
>> vs white, liberals vs labour, people generally don't look past one other
>> option unless they have a certain frame of mind regrettably linux is not
>> part of this duality
> Linux is not a part of most peoples thinking about computers because there
> is no one linux system that has come to the forefront. Ubuntu is starting
> to do this, but the linux community is so fractured that it is hard for
> them to present as one common front. If they really wanted to compete with
> windows they could, but it would take everyone stepping back, taking a
> breath and working together towards one unified operating system, rather
> than 50'000 flavours that all have their own little advantages and quirks.
>> The user is a funny animal, strictly speaking they don't know what they
>> want, when they get it the do everything they can to break it, this
>> including installing those spyware/malware riddle pc speed up programs
>> antivirus software that is full of viruses and programs that when
>> uninstalled leave redundant files behind to take up diskspace and cause
>> other problems,
> As has been proven by Mac OSX, Windows Vista and 7. Running the user as
> anything other than root, doesn't fix the issue. Apple have been scrambling
> constantly to address security issues in their OS which have largely arisen
> because of programs that use social engineering to allow the user to
> escalate the privileges of said user. There is *NO WAY* around this
> problem other than educating users. As security expects are fond of saying
> "The only secure computer is the one that no-one can access".
>> for most users a web browser a video playing program and somthing to read
>> write office excel and power point files is just about all they need and
>> or really want, i find that after demoing ubuntu 10.04 or higher most
>> people are quite happy to make the switch,
> If that is all they want to do, then yes that will be suitable. A lot of
> users want to do more than that now, photos, syncing phones, music, video
> editing, etc etc. I know my mum (originally one of the most computer
> illiterate people I know) now uses both a dekstop and a laptop on a daily
> basis, as well as a smart phone.
> i recommend running off a usb stick first, and when your happy install it
>> to the hard drive,
>> and yes you can dual boot it so if there are any games/porn applications
>> you are fond of you can still play with those,
> Yes because asking your standard computer user to dual boot their computer
> isn't going to be a complete nightmare. </rolleyes>
>> as for me being a prick that can't do the job,
>> i should correct you here jimmy, i can do the job, i can probably do it
>> half drunk, it's more of i don't want to ,especially when I'm not getting
>> paid for it, i have better things to do,
>> I'm not sure what magical insight you have into the world of computing,
>> but generally the IT guys with all those qualifications that took them
>> years in some cases to aquire, they generally do know better
>> while i'm at it i'll set the delusion on how many people use windows
>> around the world
>> roughly about 50% +-10% use windows it is estimated up to %35 of those
>> windows installations are illegal
>> when you consider that macos and android are based on some Linux variant
>> anyway
>> so we aren't quite there yet with the "taking over the world with linux"
>> project yet but we're making a good pie of it,
> Mac OSX is based on BSD not linux, while structurally similar the two
> evolved separately from UNIX
>> please don't if you're going to reply with some link to a website that
>> claims that 90%+ of people run windows, most of the time this statistic
>> comes from web server statistics which come from what the browser reports
>> you are running,
>> in a very very large percentage of cases the brower on your iphone or
>> your linux installation will tell the webserver that it is "internet
>> explorer", for the sake of compatibility,
> As luke has already pointed out this is not the case, and I challenge you
> to provide any evidence that this is so.
> The whole Linux vs Windows debate is ongoing and pointless. Each has their
> place and each has their supporters. I personally will install whatever
> people are happy using on computers for them, but I'm not going to force
> them to change OS just to make my life easier if it makes their life harder
> because that also invariably makes my life harder.
I installed Ubuntu (dual boot, default to Ubuntu) because I knew what the
user wanted, and their level of understanding. They were frustrated with
Vista being slow, popping up messages all the time, and costing them money
in antivirus software (or money for upgrade to Windows 7), and constantly
having to ask family for help because of this message or that problem - it
won't start, the internet isn't working, something is telling me I have a
virus (a browser popup for malware). Plus she lives at Mt Tambourine so
every problem requires someone to travel 1.5 hours one way or the other.
Reinstalling Vista would have improved some speed issues but it still would
have been Vista.
90% of her usage was browsing, and email (webmail). And for that there was
no problem, the Firefox button was right there and it worked. Sometimes she
also wanted to watch DVDs on it, write an office document, and look and and
print photos. Ubuntu can do all of that (except DVDs, requires an
additional install) out of the box (once printer drives were installed).
Besides a couple of issues unrelated to Ubuntu, it was faster, more
reliable, and free. Being that she didn't really know how to "use a
computer" (ie windows), there was no usage pattern to overcome. The rest of
the family however is familiar with Windows, so when my wife or her sister
tried to help, they couldn't find "Word" or the start menu, how to open
images and print them, etc. I have to blame Unity for that - it might be
easy to do a few things for basic users, but makes it more difficult to do
anything more than click the icons it puts in the dock. It annoys power
users who use lots of apps, and it annoys people who are used to the "start
menu" way of finding programs. Ubuntu finally made it easy to get the Gnome
desktop back, so it would be more familiar, but it was too late and
everyone wanted windows back, warts and all.
So I switched it to boot to windows by default, and Linux is still there
for me to boot into to recover next time it breaks.
If anything this tale tells you why not "everyone" uses Ubuntu/Linux/*nix.
It doesn't actually matter what is fastest, free, more efficient, safer,
etc. They do just want a computer that works. Windows breaks down a lot,
but they know how to use it, so it "works". This is mainly due to
successful marketing by Microsoft, which has made it the default in
businesses and schools so it becomes all people know (hence "using a
computer" means "windows") and simply inertia by typical users who use it
at home.
On the other hand, my dad is not an IT guy by any stretch, but is good at
recognising technology as useful tools. He got increasingly frustrated by
Windows a few years ago and installed Linux (first Xandros, eventually
Ubuntu). I had told him prior that he wouldn't like it, would find it too
hard to adapt. Not so - he loves the free software, the reliability, and
the lack of "Microsoft bullshit". He didn't like Unity either when it came
along, but now he's used it so long he doesn't want to go back - there's
more of that inertia. He doesn't want his daily work (as a writer) being
disturbed by having to re-learn things.
So "fixing the computer" means different things to different people,
depending on what they actually want. THAT is what you as the "IT guy" need
to determine.
Cheers
Joel
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:23 AM, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
> by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only because
> the up! software won't run on Linux,
> if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the problem i
> had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a week later
> somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some "crappy speed up
> my pc" program would get installed,
> and the whole cycle started again,
> the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
> western digital ones
> copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
> under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
> with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
> peaking higher
> I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
> ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
> operating system
> the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the linux
> guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better crack
> at it
> with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying to
> download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
> you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
> thats thread is a start when i find the rest of it i'll put it up here
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far far
>>> far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows product
>> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the
>> default OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely.
>> Almost all of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off the
>>> shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the desktop is
>>> surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are some simple
>>> components that haven't been updated since 1991!
>> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years. They
>> had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
>> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
>> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
>> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
>> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
>> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
>> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
>> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
>> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being
>> found for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people
>> writing viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit
>> to get the most possible returns from it.
>>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic
>>> example, this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if
>>> you're transferring data across a usb link the operating system will
>>> usaully struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
>> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty of
>> devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a USB
>> HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) gives
>> us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
>> sustained. Run the same numbers, we get 24MByte/s HDD's on USB 2.0 will sit
>> around this number constantly. Hardly 10 - 15 percent of the available
>> bandwidth.
>>> and still the time remaining function of those little windows is
>>> innaccurate after how many years?????
>> Ever tried to do the math on this? Then add in the fact of if you are
>> using a normal HDD you need to do multiple seeks across the disk, this adds
>> to the time to do it. There is no ACCURATE way to work out the time to do
>> this as there are so many thousands of variables that can affect it. Every
>> OS has crappy estimation of time remaining.
>>> the reason 100% don't use linux on their desktop computers is partially
>>> because most users are conditioned from highschool that windows is the
>>> "operating system" and that there is no other operating system other than
>>> macos, it's a bit like religion
>> I've used Windows and a lot of different flavours of linux over the
>> years. For servers and the like I refuse to use windows, as a server
>> shouldn't need a GUI, but for general desktop tasks. Windows is still the
>> easiest to get going and have working on a new machine in a matter of
>> hours.
>>> the physiological mechanism is called a duality, eg good vs evil, black
>>> vs white, liberals vs labour, people generally don't look past one other
>>> option unless they have a certain frame of mind regrettably linux is not
>>> part of this duality
>> Linux is not a part of most peoples thinking about computers because
>> there is no one linux system that has come to the forefront. Ubuntu is
>> starting to do this, but the linux community is so fractured that it is
>> hard for them to present as one common front. If they really wanted to
>> compete with windows they could, but it would take everyone stepping back,
>> taking a breath and working together towards one unified operating system,
>> rather than 50'000 flavours that all have their own little advantages and
>> quirks.
>>> The user is a funny animal, strictly speaking they don't know what they
>>> want, when they get it the do everything they can to break it, this
>>> including installing those spyware/malware riddle pc
On a side note for the Ubuntu 'user experience' issue, would it be possible
to skin the desktop in such a manner to make it look like windows (much
like lindows did years ago) to help overcome the end user not knowing where
to look for XYZ?
On 4 September 2012 12:05, Joel Byrnes
<fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I installed Ubuntu (dual boot, default to Ubuntu) because I knew what the
> user wanted, and their level of understanding. They were frustrated with
> Vista being slow, popping up messages all the time, and costing them money
> in antivirus software (or money for upgrade to Windows 7), and constantly
> having to ask family for help because of this message or that problem - it
> won't start, the internet isn't working, something is telling me I have a
> virus (a browser popup for malware). Plus she lives at Mt Tambourine so
> every problem requires someone to travel 1.5 hours one way or the other.
> Reinstalling Vista would have improved some speed issues but it still would
> have been Vista.
> 90% of her usage was browsing, and email (webmail). And for that there was
> no problem, the Firefox button was right there and it worked. Sometimes she
> also wanted to watch DVDs on it, write an office document, and look and and
> print photos. Ubuntu can do all of that (except DVDs, requires an
> additional install) out of the box (once printer drives were installed).
> Besides a couple of issues unrelated to Ubuntu, it was faster, more
> reliable, and free. Being that she didn't really know how to "use a
> computer" (ie windows), there was no usage pattern to overcome. The rest of
> the family however is familiar with Windows, so when my wife or her sister
> tried to help, they couldn't find "Word" or the start menu, how to open
> images and print them, etc. I have to blame Unity for that - it might be
> easy to do a few things for basic users, but makes it more difficult to do
> anything more than click the icons it puts in the dock. It annoys power
> users who use lots of apps, and it annoys people who are used to the "start
> menu" way of finding programs. Ubuntu finally made it easy to get the Gnome
> desktop back, so it would be more familiar, but it was too late and
> everyone wanted windows back, warts and all.
> So I switched it to boot to windows by default, and Linux is still there
> for me to boot into to recover next time it breaks.
> If anything this tale tells you why not "everyone" uses Ubuntu/Linux/*nix.
> It doesn't actually matter what is fastest, free, more efficient, safer,
> etc. They do just want a computer that works. Windows breaks down a lot,
> but they know how to use it, so it "works". This is mainly due to
> successful marketing by Microsoft, which has made it the default in
> businesses and schools so it becomes all people know (hence "using a
> computer" means "windows") and simply inertia by typical users who use it
> at home.
> On the other hand, my dad is not an IT guy by any stretch, but is good at
> recognising technology as useful tools. He got increasingly frustrated by
> Windows a few years ago and installed Linux (first Xandros, eventually
> Ubuntu). I had told him prior that he wouldn't like it, would find it too
> hard to adapt. Not so - he loves the free software, the reliability, and
> the lack of "Microsoft bullshit". He didn't like Unity either when it came
> along, but now he's used it so long he doesn't want to go back - there's
> more of that inertia. He doesn't want his daily work (as a writer) being
> disturbed by having to re-learn things.
> So "fixing the computer" means different things to different people,
> depending on what they actually want. THAT is what you as the "IT guy" need
> to determine.
> Cheers
> Joel
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:23 AM, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only because
>> the up! software won't run on Linux,
>> if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the problem
>> i had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a week
>> later somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some "crappy
>> speed up my pc" program would get installed,
>> and the whole cycle started again,
>> the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
>> western digital ones
>> copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
>> under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
>> with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
>> peaking higher
>> I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
>> ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
>> operating system
>> the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the linux
>> guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better crack
>> at it
>> with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying to
>> download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
>> you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
>> thats thread is a start when i find the rest of it i'll put it up here
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far far
>>>> far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows product
>>> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the
>>> default OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely.
>>> Almost all of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>>>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off
>>>> the shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the
>>>> desktop is surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are
>>>> some simple components that haven't been updated since 1991!
>>> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years.
>>> They had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
>>> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
>>> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
>>> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
>>> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
>>> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
>>> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
>>> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>>>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>>>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>>>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>>>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
>>> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being
>>> found for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people
>>> writing viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit
>>> to get the most possible returns from it.
>>>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic
>>>> example, this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if
>>>> you're transferring data across a usb link the operating system will
>>>> usaully struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
>>> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty of
>>> devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a USB
>>> HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) gives
>>> us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
>>> sustained. Run the same numbers, we get 24MByte/s HDD's on USB 2.0 will sit
>>> around this number constantly. Hardly 10 - 15 percent of the available
>>> bandwidth.
>>>> and still the time remaining function of those little windows is
>>>> innaccurate after how many years?????
>>> Ever tried to do the math on this? Then add in the fact of if you are
>>> using a normal HDD you need to do multiple seeks across the disk, this adds
>>> to the time to do it. There is no ACCURATE way to work out the time to do
>>> this as there are so many thousands of variables that can affect it. Every
>>> OS has crappy estimation of time remaining.
>>>> the reason 100% don't use linux on their desktop computers is partially
>>>> because most users are conditioned from highschool that windows is the
>>>> "operating system" and that there is no other operating system other than
>>>> macos, it's a bit like religion
>>> I've used Windows and a lot of different flavours of linux over the
>>> years. For servers and the like I refuse to use windows, as a server
>>> shouldn't need a GUI, but for general desktop tasks. Windows is still the
>>> easiest to get going and have working on a new machine in a matter of
>>> hours.
>>>> the physiological mechanism is called a duality, eg good vs evil, black
>>>> vs white, liberals vs labour, people generally don't look past one other
>>>> option unless they have a certain frame of mind regrettably linux is not
>>>> part of this duality
>>> Linux is not a part of most peoples thinking about computers because
>>> there is no one linux system that has come to the forefront. Ubuntu is
>>> starting to do this, but the linux
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Luke Irwin <bujinka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On a side note for the Ubuntu 'user experience' issue, would it be
> possible to skin the desktop in such a manner to make it look like windows
> (much like lindows did years ago) to help overcome the end user not knowing
> where to look for XYZ?
> On 4 September 2012 12:05, Joel Byrnes <fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>> Since I sadly triggered this debate...
>> I installed Ubuntu (dual boot, default to Ubuntu) because I knew what the
>> user wanted, and their level of understanding. They were frustrated with
>> Vista being slow, popping up messages all the time, and costing them money
>> in antivirus software (or money for upgrade to Windows 7), and constantly
>> having to ask family for help because of this message or that problem - it
>> won't start, the internet isn't working, something is telling me I have a
>> virus (a browser popup for malware). Plus she lives at Mt Tambourine so
>> every problem requires someone to travel 1.5 hours one way or the other.
>> Reinstalling Vista would have improved some speed issues but it still would
>> have been Vista.
>> 90% of her usage was browsing, and email (webmail). And for that there
>> was no problem, the Firefox button was right there and it worked. Sometimes
>> she also wanted to watch DVDs on it, write an office document, and look and
>> and print photos. Ubuntu can do all of that (except DVDs, requires an
>> additional install) out of the box (once printer drives were installed).
>> Besides a couple of issues unrelated to Ubuntu, it was faster, more
>> reliable, and free. Being that she didn't really know how to "use a
>> computer" (ie windows), there was no usage pattern to overcome. The rest of
>> the family however is familiar with Windows, so when my wife or her sister
>> tried to help, they couldn't find "Word" or the start menu, how to open
>> images and print them, etc. I have to blame Unity for that - it might be
>> easy to do a few things for basic users, but makes it more difficult to do
>> anything more than click the icons it puts in the dock. It annoys power
>> users who use lots of apps, and it annoys people who are used to the "start
>> menu" way of finding programs. Ubuntu finally made it easy to get the Gnome
>> desktop back, so it would be more familiar, but it was too late and
>> everyone wanted windows back, warts and all.
>> So I switched it to boot to windows by default, and Linux is still there
>> for me to boot into to recover next time it breaks.
>> If anything this tale tells you why not "everyone" uses
>> Ubuntu/Linux/*nix. It doesn't actually matter what is fastest, free, more
>> efficient, safer, etc. They do just want a computer that works. Windows
>> breaks down a lot, but they know how to use it, so it "works". This is
>> mainly due to successful marketing by Microsoft, which has made it the
>> default in businesses and schools so it becomes all people know (hence
>> "using a computer" means "windows") and simply inertia by typical users who
>> use it at home.
>> On the other hand, my dad is not an IT guy by any stretch, but is good at
>> recognising technology as useful tools. He got increasingly frustrated by
>> Windows a few years ago and installed Linux (first Xandros, eventually
>> Ubuntu). I had told him prior that he wouldn't like it, would find it too
>> hard to adapt. Not so - he loves the free software, the reliability, and
>> the lack of "Microsoft bullshit". He didn't like Unity either when it came
>> along, but now he's used it so long he doesn't want to go back - there's
>> more of that inertia. He doesn't want his daily work (as a writer) being
>> disturbed by having to re-learn things.
>> So "fixing the computer" means different things to different people,
>> depending on what they actually want. THAT is what you as the "IT guy" need
>> to determine.
>> Cheers
>> Joel
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:23 AM, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>> by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only because
>>> the up! software won't run on Linux,
>>> if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the problem
>>> i had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a week
>>> later somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some "crappy
>>> speed up my pc" program would get installed,
>>> and the whole cycle started again,
>>> the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
>>> western digital ones
>>> copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
>>> under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
>>> with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
>>> peaking higher
>>> I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
>>> ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
>>> operating system
>>> the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the
>>> linux guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better
>>> crack at it
>>> with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying to
>>> download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
>>> you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
>>> thats thread is a start when i find the rest of it i'll put it up here
>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far far
>>>>> far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows product
>>>> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the
>>>> default OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely.
>>>> Almost all of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>>>>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off
>>>>> the shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the
>>>>> desktop is surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are
>>>>> some simple components that haven't been updated since 1991!
>>>> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years.
>>>> They had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
>>>> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
>>>> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
>>>> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
>>>> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
>>>> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
>>>> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
>>>> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>>>>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>>>>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>>>>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>>>>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
>>>> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being
>>>> found for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people
>>>> writing viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit
>>>> to get the most possible returns from it.
>>>>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic
>>>>> example, this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if
>>>>> you're transferring data across a usb link the operating system will
>>>>> usaully struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
>>>> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty of
>>>> devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a USB
>>>> HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) gives
>>>> us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
>>>> sustained. Run the same numbers, we get 24MByte/s HDD's on USB 2.0 will sit
>>>> around this number constantly. Hardly 10 - 15 percent of the available
>>>> bandwidth.
>>>>> and still the time remaining function of those little windows is
>>>>> innaccurate after how many years?????
>>>> Ever tried to do the math on this? Then add in the fact of if you are
>>>> using a normal HDD you need to do multiple seeks across the disk, this adds
>>>> to the time to do it. There is no ACCURATE way to work out the time to do
>>>> this as there are so many thousands of variables that can affect it. Every
>>>> OS has crappy estimation of time remaining.
>>>>> the reason 100% don't use linux on their desktop computers is
>>>>> partially because most users are conditioned from highschool that windows
>>>>> is the "operating system" and that there is no other operating system other
>>>>> than macos, it's a bit like religion
>>>> I've used Windows and a lot of different flavours of linux over the
>>>> years. For servers and the like I refuse to use windows, as a server
>>>> shouldn't need a GUI, but for general desktop tasks. Windows is still the
>>>> easiest to get going and have working on a new machine in a matter of
In about 2002-2003 when I was trying out Red Hat Linux as a desktop, KDE
seemed to exactly copy the way the windows menus seemed to work, like it
was trying to entice Windows users by being familiar. But I still preferred
Gnome - after all I was trying to do something new. And it is better for a
power user/developer.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Luke Irwin <bujinka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On a side note for the Ubuntu 'user experience' issue, would it be
>> possible to skin the desktop in such a manner to make it look like windows
>> (much like lindows did years ago) to help overcome the end user not knowing
>> where to look for XYZ?
>> On 4 September 2012 12:05, Joel Byrnes <
>> fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Since I sadly triggered this debate...
>>> I installed Ubuntu (dual boot, default to Ubuntu) because I knew what
>>> the user wanted, and their level of understanding. They were frustrated
>>> with Vista being slow, popping up messages all the time, and costing them
>>> money in antivirus software (or money for upgrade to Windows 7), and
>>> constantly having to ask family for help because of this message or that
>>> problem - it won't start, the internet isn't working, something is telling
>>> me I have a virus (a browser popup for malware). Plus she lives at Mt
>>> Tambourine so every problem requires someone to travel 1.5 hours one way or
>>> the other. Reinstalling Vista would have improved some speed issues but it
>>> still would have been Vista.
>>> 90% of her usage was browsing, and email (webmail). And for that there
>>> was no problem, the Firefox button was right there and it worked. Sometimes
>>> she also wanted to watch DVDs on it, write an office document, and look and
>>> and print photos. Ubuntu can do all of that (except DVDs, requires an
>>> additional install) out of the box (once printer drives were installed).
>>> Besides a couple of issues unrelated to Ubuntu, it was faster, more
>>> reliable, and free. Being that she didn't really know how to "use a
>>> computer" (ie windows), there was no usage pattern to overcome. The rest of
>>> the family however is familiar with Windows, so when my wife or her sister
>>> tried to help, they couldn't find "Word" or the start menu, how to open
>>> images and print them, etc. I have to blame Unity for that - it might be
>>> easy to do a few things for basic users, but makes it more difficult to do
>>> anything more than click the icons it puts in the dock. It annoys power
>>> users who use lots of apps, and it annoys people who are used to the "start
>>> menu" way of finding programs. Ubuntu finally made it easy to get the Gnome
>>> desktop back, so it would be more familiar, but it was too late and
>>> everyone wanted windows back, warts and all.
>>> So I switched it to boot to windows by default, and Linux is still there
>>> for me to boot into to recover next time it breaks.
>>> If anything this tale tells you why not "everyone" uses
>>> Ubuntu/Linux/*nix. It doesn't actually matter what is fastest, free, more
>>> efficient, safer, etc. They do just want a computer that works. Windows
>>> breaks down a lot, but they know how to use it, so it "works". This is
>>> mainly due to successful marketing by Microsoft, which has made it the
>>> default in businesses and schools so it becomes all people know (hence
>>> "using a computer" means "windows") and simply inertia by typical users who
>>> use it at home.
>>> On the other hand, my dad is not an IT guy by any stretch, but is good
>>> at recognising technology as useful tools. He got increasingly frustrated
>>> by Windows a few years ago and installed Linux (first Xandros, eventually
>>> Ubuntu). I had told him prior that he wouldn't like it, would find it too
>>> hard to adapt. Not so - he loves the free software, the reliability, and
>>> the lack of "Microsoft bullshit". He didn't like Unity either when it came
>>> along, but now he's used it so long he doesn't want to go back - there's
>>> more of that inertia. He doesn't want his daily work (as a writer) being
>>> disturbed by having to re-learn things.
>>> So "fixing the computer" means different things to different people,
>>> depending on what they actually want. THAT is what you as the "IT guy" need
>>> to determine.
>>> Cheers
>>> Joel
>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:23 AM, chris bate <
>>> thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only
>>>> because the up! software won't run on Linux,
>>>> if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the
>>>> problem i had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a
>>>> week later somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some
>>>> "crappy speed up my pc" program would get installed,
>>>> and the whole cycle started again,
>>>> the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
>>>> western digital ones
>>>> copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
>>>> under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
>>>> with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
>>>> peaking higher
>>>> I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
>>>> ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
>>>> operating system
>>>> the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the
>>>> linux guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better
>>>> crack at it
>>>> with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying
>>>> to download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
>>>> you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
>>>> thats thread is a start when i find the rest of it i'll put it up here
>>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far
>>>>>> far far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows
>>>>>> product
>>>>> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the
>>>>> default OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely.
>>>>> Almost all of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>>>>>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off
>>>>>> the shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the
>>>>>> desktop is surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are
>>>>>> some simple components that haven't been updated since 1991!
>>>>> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years.
>>>>> They had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
>>>>> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
>>>>> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
>>>>> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
>>>>> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
>>>>> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
>>>>> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
>>>>> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>>>>>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>>>>>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>>>>>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>>>>>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
>>>>> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being
>>>>> found for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people
>>>>> writing viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit
>>>>> to get the most possible returns from it.
>>>>>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic
>>>>>> example, this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if
>>>>>> you're transferring data across a usb link the operating system will
>>>>>> usaully struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
>>>>> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty of
>>>>> devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a USB
>>>>> HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) gives
>>>>> us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
>>>>> sustained. Run the same numbers, we get 24MByte/s HDD's on USB 2.0 will sit
>>>>> around this number constantly. Hardly 10 - 15 percent of the available
>>>>> bandwidth.
>>>>>> and still the time remaining function of those little windows is
>>>>>> innaccurate after how many years?????
>>>>> Ever tried to do the math on this? Then add in the fact of if you are
>>>>> using a normal HDD you need to do multiple seeks across
I hear mint is a better ubuntu-ish distro for "power users" who want the
benefits of ubuntu's ubiquity (fresh packages, good compatibility) without
unity.
On 4 September 2012 12:36, Joel Byrnes
<fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com>wrote:
> In about 2002-2003 when I was trying out Red Hat Linux as a desktop, KDE
> seemed to exactly copy the way the windows menus seemed to work, like it
> was trying to entice Windows users by being familiar. But I still preferred
> Gnome - after all I was trying to do something new. And it is better for a
> power user/developer.
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> unity i usaully turn off first thing after installing,
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Luke Irwin <bujinka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On a side note for the Ubuntu 'user experience' issue, would it be
>>> possible to skin the desktop in such a manner to make it look like windows
>>> (much like lindows did years ago) to help overcome the end user not knowing
>>> where to look for XYZ?
>>> On 4 September 2012 12:05, Joel Byrnes <
>>> fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Since I sadly triggered this debate...
>>>> I installed Ubuntu (dual boot, default to Ubuntu) because I knew what
>>>> the user wanted, and their level of understanding. They were frustrated
>>>> with Vista being slow, popping up messages all the time, and costing them
>>>> money in antivirus software (or money for upgrade to Windows 7), and
>>>> constantly having to ask family for help because of this message or that
>>>> problem - it won't start, the internet isn't working, something is telling
>>>> me I have a virus (a browser popup for malware). Plus she lives at Mt
>>>> Tambourine so every problem requires someone to travel 1.5 hours one way or
>>>> the other. Reinstalling Vista would have improved some speed issues but it
>>>> still would have been Vista.
>>>> 90% of her usage was browsing, and email (webmail). And for that there
>>>> was no problem, the Firefox button was right there and it worked. Sometimes
>>>> she also wanted to watch DVDs on it, write an office document, and look and
>>>> and print photos. Ubuntu can do all of that (except DVDs, requires an
>>>> additional install) out of the box (once printer drives were installed).
>>>> Besides a couple of issues unrelated to Ubuntu, it was faster, more
>>>> reliable, and free. Being that she didn't really know how to "use a
>>>> computer" (ie windows), there was no usage pattern to overcome. The rest of
>>>> the family however is familiar with Windows, so when my wife or her sister
>>>> tried to help, they couldn't find "Word" or the start menu, how to open
>>>> images and print them, etc. I have to blame Unity for that - it might be
>>>> easy to do a few things for basic users, but makes it more difficult to do
>>>> anything more than click the icons it puts in the dock. It annoys power
>>>> users who use lots of apps, and it annoys people who are used to the "start
>>>> menu" way of finding programs. Ubuntu finally made it easy to get the Gnome
>>>> desktop back, so it would be more familiar, but it was too late and
>>>> everyone wanted windows back, warts and all.
>>>> So I switched it to boot to windows by default, and Linux is still
>>>> there for me to boot into to recover next time it breaks.
>>>> If anything this tale tells you why not "everyone" uses
>>>> Ubuntu/Linux/*nix. It doesn't actually matter what is fastest, free, more
>>>> efficient, safer, etc. They do just want a computer that works. Windows
>>>> breaks down a lot, but they know how to use it, so it "works". This is
>>>> mainly due to successful marketing by Microsoft, which has made it the
>>>> default in businesses and schools so it becomes all people know (hence
>>>> "using a computer" means "windows") and simply inertia by typical users who
>>>> use it at home.
>>>> On the other hand, my dad is not an IT guy by any stretch, but is good
>>>> at recognising technology as useful tools. He got increasingly frustrated
>>>> by Windows a few years ago and installed Linux (first Xandros, eventually
>>>> Ubuntu). I had told him prior that he wouldn't like it, would find it too
>>>> hard to adapt. Not so - he loves the free software, the reliability, and
>>>> the lack of "Microsoft bullshit". He didn't like Unity either when it came
>>>> along, but now he's used it so long he doesn't want to go back - there's
>>>> more of that inertia. He doesn't want his daily work (as a writer) being
>>>> disturbed by having to re-learn things.
>>>> So "fixing the computer" means different things to different people,
>>>> depending on what they actually want. THAT is what you as the "IT guy" need
>>>> to determine.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Joel
>>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:23 AM, chris bate <
>>>> thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> by all means run windows, i run it myself on one laptop but only
>>>>> because the up! software won't run on Linux,
>>>>> if people don't want to run linux fair enough, don't run it, the
>>>>> problem i had was that i would go clean up the windows installation then a
>>>>> week later somthing would get downloaded from some porn site or some
>>>>> "crappy speed up my pc" program would get installed,
>>>>> and the whole cycle started again,
>>>>> the usb file transfer thing,, the drive we use are those seagate and
>>>>> western digital ones
>>>>> copying a file from a usb drive to an internal SATA drive
>>>>> under windows we struggled to get 2MB/sec
>>>>> with the same drives on the same PC under Ubuntu 11.04 12MB/sec and
>>>>> peaking higher
>>>>> I have replicated the same results across a number of drives usb stick
>>>>> ssd's and across several different computers, the only difference was the
>>>>> operating system
>>>>> the estimated time left problem can't be difficult to solve, if the
>>>>> linux guys can get it closer to accurate surely Microsoft can have a better
>>>>> crack at it
>>>>> with the iphone/ipad it depends on the webserver ,what you are trying
>>>>> to download and what comes back, from the server, it also depends on wether
>>>>> you are using the Safari app or the youtube App or one of the many others,
>>>>> thats thread is a start when i find the rest of it i'll put it up here
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Lemming . <inert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4 September 2012 08:16, chris bate <thejollygrimrea...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>> @jimmy, Linux , well at least certain distributions of it is far
>>>>>>> far far far superior to anything Microsoft has to offer in its windows
>>>>>>> product
>>>>>> If this were the case, the market would have taken up linux as the
>>>>>> default OS for everything. Yes Mac OSX is based on BSD, but only barely.
>>>>>> Almost all of the API's on top of it are apple software.
>>>>>>> windows is a proprietry operating system costing hundreds to buy off
>>>>>>> the shelf is full of bugs and nearly everything operating behind the
>>>>>>> desktop is surprisingly inefficient even in the latest version there are
>>>>>>> some simple components that haven't been updated since 1991!
>>>>>> Windows has made great inroads into security over the last 10 years.
>>>>>> They had a few huge wakeup calls during the early 2000's when things like
>>>>>> "MSblaster" and Love Bug Worm got out. Windows the OS is proprietary but
>>>>>> pretty much every single last one of the API's for Windows is fully
>>>>>> documented and well supported, Linux is only just starting down this road,
>>>>>> but there are so many competing API's on linux systems that it makes it
>>>>>> hard to write one application that will work on all linux systems. Apple
>>>>>> takes this one step further by controlling the API's, OS and Hardware.
>>>>>> Making writing an app for an apple system a lot easier.
>>>>>>> there are thousands of security holes glitches and bugs which allow
>>>>>>> viruses access into and out of you pc, some of this problems have existed
>>>>>>> since windows 3.11 and instead of being fixed they are covered up with more
>>>>>>> layers of software each adding more complexity to the operating system
>>>>>> As has been proven with Mac OSX and how many bugs and such are being
>>>>>> found for it. The largest attractor of viruses is being popular, people
>>>>>> writing viruses and trojans are looking for the biggest crowd they can hit
>>>>>> to get the most possible returns from it.
>>>>>>> performance wise, the handling of usb data transfer is a classic
>>>>>>> example, this is handled so badly that under most windows versions if
>>>>>>> you're transferring data across a usb link the operating system will
>>>>>>> usaully struggle to use even 10% to 15% of the available bandwidth
>>>>>> I don't know what USB devices you are using, but I have seen plenty
>>>>>> of devices that are capable of flooding the USB Bus. Take for instance a
>>>>>> USB HDD, USB2.0 is 480Mbit, 10 bits to a byte (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop)
>>>>>> gives us 48MBytes/s. But USB 2.0 is only 480Mbit for bursts, it's 240mbit
>>>>>> sustained.
I use all sorts of os's I even had a phone call last week a 8million dollar
cardboard corrugator's pc would not boot on win 3.11 I was asked if I could
fix my answer was not "you must install linux"
My family know I am a prick because I charge by the hr but they love me
because I do what they want not whatever I wanted to do. I even charge them
when I remote access in.
My boss did get annoyed at me once as I booked 4hrs for when he phoned me
and asked me if I wanted to got the football.
I run my 3d printer on wheezy and will use whatever software is at my
disposal the best one for the job or software that has been specified for
me to use. Lemming was right it is more about a I can attitude instead of a
why don't.
Jimmy
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, David Lyon <david.lyon.preissh...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> +1 on forcing ubuntu on users when they are too lazy/inactive
> to do stuff for themselves.
> I just installed ubuntu on a notebook for an African guy who
> nagged me into supplying an ex-lease notebook.
> It came with no OS.
> I loaded on Ubuntu. He nagged and said he wanted windows.
> I retorted, and said "Yes, but I thought you would understand
> Ubuntu being african and all".
> His answer was "ok then. It is very popular in africa".
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> hackerspace_brisbane+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspace_brisbane?hl=en.
Well that's quite a different story, isn't it? If I was doing business, of
course I would do what they ask, and also just suggest alternatives like a
different approach or OS.
I don't charge my family or friends, same as they don't charge me to borrow
the trailer or tools or help me with things. And I want their lives to be
better, not just make money from them indefinitely (as an IT support
company might), so I do my best to make that happen rather than exactly
what they ask for. I also want my life to be better, so I attempt to
improve both our lives by reducing the need for tech support calls (and
trips to Mt Tambourine).
My mother is reasonably tech savvy but I have never even suggested she use
Linux, because she uses mostly business apps, iTunes etc, so the solution
is to continue to support her on Windows. Any time I have suggested she get
a new LCD, upgrade to ADSL, get a new PC, she has resisted but once she
does it she is so pleased at the improvement.
I'm pretty sure my family and my wife's family would be more bothered if I
charged for everything rather than tried to fix things the best way I can
find, and I don't do it for tech purist or OS wars reasons.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jimmy Bowler <denomina...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I use all sorts of os's I even had a phone call last week a 8million
> dollar cardboard corrugator's pc would not boot on win 3.11 I was asked if
> I could fix my answer was not "you must install linux"
> My family know I am a prick because I charge by the hr but they love me
> because I do what they want not whatever I wanted to do. I even charge them
> when I remote access in.
> My boss did get annoyed at me once as I booked 4hrs for when he phoned me
> and asked me if I wanted to got the football.
> I run my 3d printer on wheezy and will use whatever software is at my
> disposal the best one for the job or software that has been specified for
> me to use. Lemming was right it is more about a I can attitude instead of a
> why don't.
> Jimmy
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, David Lyon <
> david.lyon.preissh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1 on forcing ubuntu on users when they are too lazy/inactive
>> to do stuff for themselves.
>> I just installed ubuntu on a notebook for an African guy who
>> nagged me into supplying an ex-lease notebook.
>> It came with no OS.
>> I loaded on Ubuntu. He nagged and said he wanted windows.
>> I retorted, and said "Yes, but I thought you would understand
>> Ubuntu being african and all".
>> His answer was "ok then. It is very popular in africa".
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "hackerspace_brisbane" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> hackerspace_brisbane@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> hackerspace_brisbane+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspace_brisbane?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "hackerspace_brisbane" group.
> To post to this group, send email to hackerspace_brisbane@googlegroups.com
> .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> hackerspace_brisbane+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspace_brisbane?hl=en.
Yeah I suppose I should have mentioned I only charge a token amount for the
job I do but I always treat it more like a job in that respect. I just do
what people ask because trying to change someones habits or minds is not
worth the effort and sometimes it's like banging your head against wall.
(only electricians should do electical work) I just don't care enough to
change someones mind as everyone has some staunch opinions that won't be
swayed. I accept you have a differing opinion but if I drive an hr out of
my way to throw a triped circuit breaker or straighten roller door at my
mates place he atleast has to provide dinner. I am sure you are remunerated
for you work you do, I just decided to charge because in my family it is a
one way street most of the time and now they try and fix the pc before they
ring me.
fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well that's quite a different story, isn't it? If I was doing business, of
> course I would do what they ask, and also just suggest alternatives like a
> different approach or OS.
> I don't charge my family or friends, same as they don't charge me to
> borrow the trailer or tools or help me with things. And I want their lives
> to be better, not just make money from them indefinitely (as an IT support
> company might), so I do my best to make that happen rather than exactly
> what they ask for. I also want my life to be better, so I attempt to
> improve both our lives by reducing the need for tech support calls (and
> trips to Mt Tambourine).
> My mother is reasonably tech savvy but I have never even suggested she use
> Linux, because she uses mostly business apps, iTunes etc, so the solution
> is to continue to support her on Windows. Any time I have suggested she get
> a new LCD, upgrade to ADSL, get a new PC, she has resisted but once she
> does it she is so pleased at the improvement.
> I'm pretty sure my family and my wife's family would be more bothered if I
> charged for everything rather than tried to fix things the best way I can
> find, and I don't do it for tech purist or OS wars reasons.
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jimmy Bowler <denomina...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> I use all sorts of os's I even had a phone call last week a 8million
>> dollar cardboard corrugator's pc would not boot on win 3.11 I was asked if
>> I could fix my answer was not "you must install linux"
>> My family know I am a prick because I charge by the hr but they love me
>> because I do what they want not whatever I wanted to do. I even charge them
>> when I remote access in.
>> My boss did get annoyed at me once as I booked 4hrs for when he phoned me
>> and asked me if I wanted to got the football.
>> I run my 3d printer on wheezy and will use whatever software is at my
>> disposal the best one for the job or software that has been specified for
>> me to use. Lemming was right it is more about a I can attitude instead of a
>> why don't.
>> Jimmy
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, David Lyon <
>> david.lyon.preissh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> +1 on forcing ubuntu on users when they are too lazy/inactive
>>> to do stuff for themselves.
>>> I just installed ubuntu on a notebook for an African guy who
>>> nagged me into supplying an ex-lease notebook.
>>> It came with no OS.
>>> I loaded on Ubuntu. He nagged and said he wanted windows.
>>> I retorted, and said "Yes, but I thought you would understand
>>> Ubuntu being african and all".
>>> His answer was "ok then. It is very popular in africa".
>>> --
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Dan Ariely's book "Predictably irrational" posits that we have two
different measuring sticks for social / family situations versus business
ones. ie Social norms and Market norms. Having a friend or relative ask you
to fix their computer starts mixing these two in ways that can become
uncomfortable. Imagine standing up after a great christmas dinner with
family, getting your wallet out and saying "That was great Mum, will forty
bucks cover it?".
Another thing that gets me with this is that as soon as you agree to help,
you gain ownership of every single problem with it from now to eternity.
How often have you heard "It wasn't doing that until you started fiddling
with it". Of course it was, but their senses are heightened since you
touched it, because they are now looking for problems.
I just thank god I didn't decide to become a proctologist.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Jimmy Bowler <denomina...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah I suppose I should have mentioned I only charge a token amount for
> the job I do but I always treat it more like a job in that respect. I just
> do what people ask because trying to change someones habits or minds is not
> worth the effort and sometimes it's like banging your head against wall.
> (only electricians should do electical work) I just don't care enough to
> change someones mind as everyone has some staunch opinions that won't be
> swayed. I accept you have a differing opinion but if I drive an hr out of
> my way to throw a triped circuit breaker or straighten roller door at my
> mates place he atleast has to provide dinner. I am sure you are remunerated
> for you work you do, I just decided to charge because in my family it is a
> one way street most of the time and now they try and fix the pc before they
> ring me.
> Jimmy
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Joel Byrnes <
> fatal.exception.occur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well that's quite a different story, isn't it? If I was doing business,
>> of course I would do what they ask, and also just suggest alternatives like
>> a different approach or OS.
>> I don't charge my family or friends, same as they don't charge me to
>> borrow the trailer or tools or help me with things. And I want their lives
>> to be better, not just make money from them indefinitely (as an IT support
>> company might), so I do my best to make that happen rather than exactly
>> what they ask for. I also want my life to be better, so I attempt to
>> improve both our lives by reducing the need for tech support calls (and
>> trips to Mt Tambourine).
>> My mother is reasonably tech savvy but I have never even suggested she
>> use Linux, because she uses mostly business apps, iTunes etc, so the
>> solution is to continue to support her on Windows. Any time I have
>> suggested she get a new LCD, upgrade to ADSL, get a new PC, she has
>> resisted but once she does it she is so pleased at the improvement.
>> I'm pretty sure my family and my wife's family would be more bothered if
>> I charged for everything rather than tried to fix things the best way I can
>> find, and I don't do it for tech purist or OS wars reasons.
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jimmy Bowler <denomina...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> I use all sorts of os's I even had a phone call last week a 8million
>>> dollar cardboard corrugator's pc would not boot on win 3.11 I was asked if
>>> I could fix my answer was not "you must install linux"
>>> My family know I am a prick because I charge by the hr but they love me
>>> because I do what they want not whatever I wanted to do. I even charge them
>>> when I remote access in.
>>> My boss did get annoyed at me once as I booked 4hrs for when he phoned
>>> me and asked me if I wanted to got the football.
>>> I run my 3d printer on wheezy and will use whatever software is at my
>>> disposal the best one for the job or software that has been specified for
>>> me to use. Lemming was right it is more about a I can attitude instead of a
>>> why don't.
>>> Jimmy
>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, David Lyon <
>>> david.lyon.preissh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> +1 on forcing ubuntu on users when they are too lazy/inactive
>>>> to do stuff for themselves.
>>>> I just installed ubuntu on a notebook for an African guy who
>>>> nagged me into supplying an ex-lease notebook.
>>>> It came with no OS.
>>>> I loaded on Ubuntu. He nagged and said he wanted windows.
>>>> I retorted, and said "Yes, but I thought you would understand
>>>> Ubuntu being african and all".
>>>> His answer was "ok then. It is very popular in africa".
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "hackerspace_brisbane" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>> hackerspace_brisbane@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> hackerspace_brisbane+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspace_brisbane?hl=en.
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