Habariproject.org
Owen Winkler
habariproject.org for readiness.
You can now register accounts on Trac and create/edit tickets.
It should be a "simple" matter of migrating the existing open tickets to
the Trac and then making sure all of the committers have accounts on
hp.o (additional simple permissions settings are required) before we can
switch entirely away from Google Code. At that time, we'd turn off the
periodic sync with Google's svn repo, and switch all of our commits to
the new repo.
After that, we could either ignore that repo or delete its contents and
replace it with externals to the hp.o repo, so you'd still be able to
check out from there, but it would simply pull everything from the hp.o
repo as an external. Just a half-baked thought.
I think the only thing missing to move forward with this plan is a
certificate for SSL on the svn subdomain, which is easily obtained, and
the aforementioned ticket migration.
After/during the move we should probably also update JibbyBot to get
revision info from the Trac repo exclusively, which will be nice since
then he can be realtime. And it might be nice to come up with a
deployment plan, since it might not make sense to publish releases to
Google Code if we're not hosting our source there anymore. Or maybe it
does, not sure.
It might be useful to determine if it's possible to authenticate
usernames/passwords against a htpasswd file from PHP as a plugin to
Habari, because that could facilitate unifying the password system on
the site.
Anyway, if anybody is interested in helping migrate open issues from
GCode to Trac, please reply on this thread and we'll get something
rolling. Hopefully, if people pitch in, we can have the whole thing
flipped over by Monday.
Owen
ringmaster
ugly, that might also be interesting. :)
Owen
Michael Heilemann
Peter Westwood
On Fri, December 14, 2007 7:16 am, Owen Winkler wrote:
>
> It might be useful to determine if it's possible to authenticate
> usernames/passwords against a htpasswd file from PHP as a plugin to
> Habari, because that could facilitate unifying the password system on
> the site.
>
I have successfully used File_Passwd [1] from PEAR for this for $dayjob
[1] http://pear.php.net/package/File_Passwd/
westi
--
Peter Westwood <peter.w...@ftwr.co.uk>
http://blog.ftwr.co.uk
Owen Winkler
>
> On Fri, December 14, 2007 7:16 am, Owen Winkler wrote:
>> It might be useful to determine if it's possible to authenticate
>> usernames/passwords against a htpasswd file from PHP as a plugin to
>> Habari, because that could facilitate unifying the password system on
>> the site.
>>
>
> I have successfully used File_Passwd [1] from PEAR for this for $dayjob
>
Cool, so it's possible, now, to do it...
Owen
Owen Winkler
> Not that I have any particular objections, but why the move?
>
In particular, Google Code doesn't let people update the status of their
own issues. There are a bunch of weird little limitations like that
that don't fit with the ethos of our community.
We've been talking about doing this for a while, see:
http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev/browse_thread/thread/d9f8783cddde5e99
http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev/browse_thread/thread/282e21ee9f94010f
Owen
Sean T. Evans
> Anyway, if anybody is interested in helping migrate open issues from
> GCode to Trac, please reply on this thread and we'll get something
> rolling. Hopefully, if people pitch in, we can have the whole thing
> flipped over by Monday.
Since I can actually edit tags on GCode, I can work on this and tag ones
that have been moved. Open issues I've moved I'll tag as HP.O and close.
We should probably make a note on the GCode page mentioning the transition.
I made a quick checklist on the wiki as well:
http://wiki.habariproject.org/en/Hpo_transition
Feel free to revise as needed.
Michael Bishop
Sean's wiki page. I should have some time this weekend to help that
migration as well.
~miklb
Michael Bishop
that name existed. Some already set up accounts for project members?
How do we login?
~miklb
Owen Winkler
> I tried registering @ trac, but got a message that an account with
> that name existed. Some already set up accounts for project members?
> How do we login?
Some people already had accounts set up there somehow. Most people
should be fine with new logins.
If you want to help the transfer effort, please visit #habari IRC, since
the efforts are ongoing and should be coordinated to minimize duplicate
effort. Thanks!
Owen
Michael Bishop
their original GCode issue referenced in the trac issue.
Issues in GCode were labeled with a status of Moved for reference.
A discussion I suppose still needs to be had regarding our definition
of priorities and components. Keywords I assume are like tags, and
less structured.
I also believe that a message has been added to new issues @ GCode
directing users to use Trac, however I will monitor the issues feed
for a few weeks to keep an eye on any strays.
I think the next step is to determine the best course of action to
actually move the repo to hp.o, no?
~miklb
Michael Heilemann
AJ
> All open issues @ GCode have now been migrated. They should have
> their original GCode issue referenced in the trac issue.
>
guess with http://habariproject.org/en/trac to
http://habariproject.org/trac to finally http://trac.habariproject.org/
I could not find an obvious link to the trac on the front page..
AJ
Owen Winkler
> Can a link to the trac be created on the site's front page? I had to
> guess with http://habariproject.org/en/trac to
> http://habariproject.org/trac to finally http://trac.habariproject.org/
> I could not find an obvious link to the trac on the front page..
I replaced the screenshots link (which was very outdated) with a link to
a wiki page to report a bug/request a feature.
http://wiki.habariproject.org/en/File_a_Ticket
Please edit as required.
Owen
Helmut Granda
Owen Winkler
> It needs a facelift
>
I have several responses to this:
1) Uh, what?
2) Where's the code/design you have created to replace it to go along
with your criticism?
3) Note http://commandshift3.com/tag/cms where Habari is currently #9,
ahead of Six Apart, Automattic, Drupal, and WordPress.
Owen
Michael C. Harris
>
> Helmut Granda wrote:
> > It needs a facelift
> >
>
> I have several responses to this:
>
> 1) Uh, what?
Perhaps Helmut means trac. Or http://trac.habariproject.org/.
Robin Adrianse
2) Where's the code/design you have created to replace it to go along
with your criticism?
Doug Stewart
Hear hear. The overall design/layout is nice, but I don't care for
the header logo, personally. The gradiented Habari just screams "Late
90's/early Aughties design"/"Slashdot graphics redesign".
Perhaps that what he was taking aim at?
--
-Doug
Rich Bowen
Michael C. Harris
> On Dec 19, 2007, at 18:51, Michael C. Harris wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 04:51:26PM -0500, Owen Winkler wrote:
> > > Helmut Granda wrote:
> > >
> > > > It needs a facelift
> > >
> > > I have several responses to this:
> > >
> > > 1) Uh, what?
> >
>
> Trac needs to be functional. It doesn't need to be pretty. Can we
> please not get sidetracked into making the bug tracker pretty? It's a
> bug tracker, for the love of Pete.
Just to be clear, I was suggesting no such thing.
Robin Adrianse
Scott Merrill
> Of course, there is *definitely* no chance whatsoever that a facelift would
> make it more usable.
In what way is it not (sufficiently) usable? Is it perfect? No. It
is better than bugzilla? Lord, I hope so. Is it better than Google
Code? In some ways, probably.
My suggestions for the habariproject.org main page:
* use a decent HTML <title> tag for the page, rather than the latest
devblog post title
* if at all possible, show only top-level threads on the mailing-list
column, rather than each individual post.
* perhaps move the devblog posts to the left, so they are available "first"
The links under the big graphic and above the two columns don't stand
out much like links. Other than that, I don't have any problems with
the site.
Owen Winkler
> Hear hear. The overall design/layout is nice, but I don't care for
> the header logo, personally. The gradiented Habari just screams "Late
> 90's/early Aughties design"/"Slashdot graphics redesign".
As opposed to the original message, this is meaningful commentary.
You are welcome to submit an alternate design.
Although, other people obviously do like the design (according to the
link in my original reply, which was omitted here), so I'm not sure that
we should even act based on solely a couple of people's opinions,
especially if we're talking about Trac instead, as the other messages in
the thread suggest.
Owen
Michael Heilemann
Basically it isn't a particularly good design, and nor is it
representative of the style and elegance which should permeate
throughout Habari.
I agree that one shouldn't have something to replace it with, to get a
conversation going about it. Though, that said, I'm more than willing
to contribute. I've got various ideas for the admin anyway, and since
that's the strongest ID Habari has, it feels natural to extend from
that. Since the homepage doesn't currently hold a lot, a redesign
should be a fairly small matter, but if I had to choose between fixing
the above or making sure .4 is up to the standard it deserves, I'll go
with .4.
Regarding the logo; I still don't like it. I'm not good with with logo
design, so I can't be of much help there.
- Mike
Owen Winkler
>
> My suggestions for the habariproject.org main page:
> * use a decent HTML <title> tag for the page, rather than the latest
> devblog post title
Done.
> * if at all possible, show only top-level threads on the mailing-list
> column, rather than each individual post.
Done.
> * perhaps move the devblog posts to the left, so they are available "first"
Done.
> The links under the big graphic and above the two columns don't stand
> out much like links. Other than that, I don't have any problems with
> the site.
I made them a little bigger. If you had some other idea to improve it
that makes sense, I'll gladly implement it.
Owen
Owen Winkler
>
> I agree that one shouldn't have something to replace it with, to get a
> conversation going about it. Though, that said, I'm more than willing
> to contribute.
I'm willing to discuss the functional needs for a future redesign of the
Habariproject.org home page with whomever is interested in participating.
The site as-is is entirely adequate for our current needs, which
primarily includes disseminating information about our pre-release
product to developers and early adopters who may become contributors
(for things like the design of the home page). I think the site stats
will bear me out on this.
I'll kindly remind all who would reply that whether it would take you a
half hour or half a year to reproduce the designs you see and dislike,
it only takes a moment of thought to avoid insulting the people who did
already invest their own time and effort into creating what you see.
> Regarding the logo; I still don't like it. I'm not good with with logo
> design, so I can't be of much help there.
I really like the current logo, so I'm not inclined at this time to
support any change to it.
Owen
Rich Bowen
Of course, there is *definitely* no chance whatsoever that a facelift would make it more usable.
Rich Bowen
Trac needs to be functional. It doesn't need to be pretty. Can weplease not get sidetracked into making the bug tracker pretty? It's abug tracker, for the love of Pete.Just to be clear, I was suggesting no such thing.
Michael Heilemann
> primarily includes disseminating information about our pre-release
> product to developers and early adopters who may become contributors
> (for things like the design of the home page). I think the site stats
> will bear me out on this.
Of course; the primary focus should obviously be on Habari itself, as
it is too early to broadly advertise it anyway. All IMHO of course.
> I'll kindly remind all who would reply that whether it would take you a
> half hour or half a year to reproduce the designs you see and dislike,
> it only takes a moment of thought to avoid insulting the people who did
> already invest their own time and effort into creating what you see.
If you're referring to anything I might have said, I am sorry. My time
is thinly stretched, and as a result I can end up dealing with matters
in the most straightforward way possible, rather than with the
consideration it might need. And this being Xmas, I'm sure there's a
lot of that going around :)
I'm never intentionally trying to be an ass. Contrarily, we can't wrap
everything point we want to make in page-long excuses for being so
bold as to suggest change. It's a fine balance between pointing
something out as being inadequate or simply letting it be, from fear
of conflict.
I don't get a kick out of stepping on people's toes. I'm simply very
pragmatic about these things. And design, which this is a discussion
about, is a prickly issue to discuss in a group. Unlike purely logical
code, it's all about aesthetics; and aesthetics are subjective.
I don't consider myself a 'great' visual designer, just as I don't
consider myself a database programmer, but I still don't think
Habari's homepage lives up to the presentational standard I would
personally want it to, if it is to complement the rest of the product
in its 'ideal' form. Currently, it doesn't actually resemble anything
from the rest of Habari's 'identity'.
It _is_ adequate for now, simply because the time is better spent
elsewhere. But if the dream is to make a complete experience, then no
matter how gently it is put forward, the site will eventually need a
redesign.
Now this, the discussion about design in an open forum, is another
matter entirely. It's something I talked briefly to Chris about when I
reinserted myself into your midst :) -- Unlike purely logical code,
it's all about aesthetics; and aesthetics are mostly subjective.
It's not a popular thing to say necessarily, but everyone has opinions
about everything, but some people have better opinions about some
things, than others.
No, this isn't a throwback to Animal Farm, it's simply an
acknowledgement that I couldn't tell you why the structure of Habari's
db code is better than WP's. It might be, it might not be. I just
don't know. But I know instinctively that Habari's publish page kicks
the living crap out of WordPress'. That's what it was designed to do.
That's what it does. And I know it does.
I'm not suggesting a segregation or fragmentation of the core
developers; but let's acknowledge the fact that some people know about
code, some know about design. If we can agree on that, then the next
part should be easier, because
aesthetics-by-the-committee-to-ensure-intact-egos is rarely a good
idea.
It's for this reason I listen carefully when someone, who knows what
they're talking about, tells me that I'm going down the wrong path
with a design. And because my ego is bloated, I hope for the same
reaction from programmers, if they've designed something that is less
than optimal.
It isn't personal, it's simply efficiency.
> > Regarding the logo; I still don't like it. I'm not good with with logo
> > design, so I can't be of much help there.
> I really like the current logo, so I'm not inclined at this time to
> support any change to it.
First of all, my main interest right now is in making the admin the
Lamborghini Countach of the blogging world. I want that thing to rock
my world. That takes time and effort, and I'm not interested in a
two-front war. I'll gladly return to the whole logo thing later on,
though I fear that letting it be for now will encourage people to use
it because 'that's the way it's always been'.
Secondly, I'm not a logo expert. I can't do it. I'm not an illustrator
either. But I do have an above average developed sense of aesthetics
(now that we're calling a spade a spade).
And as it is, the logo isn't a logo, it's a Quenyan glyph.
Technically, it feels 'too open', sloppy, slightly random and
unfocused. I don't remember who designed it, and I don't know if it's
meant to resemble anything as such. As it is, it looks a bit like a
minor-case 'h' (and I think someone once said 'a bell'), but it just
doesn't connect with the rest of Habari's visual signature, IMHO.
Personally, I could care less about a logo. I would much rather prefer
something as simple and bordering banal as 'Habari' set in Helvetica
or Helvetica Bold, kerned properly (I attached a PNG of how this might
look). It's instantly recognizable, it's neutral and between Helvetica
and Arial on all available platforms, it's doable without graphics,
should that be an issue.
Logo design is HARD. Incredibly hard at that. I've studied art and
design at university level, and I don't have _any_ delusions of being
able to do a proper logo to save my life.
But on a more fundamental level, does Habari really need an 'icon' at
all? Think of Skype, Yahoo! or Microsoft's logos; they aren't
iconographic, but they're iconic.
Finally: I might be blunt, but I'm blunt on behalf of Habari,
hopefully not on account of the people who work on it, cuz I loves you
guys :P
- Mike
Doug Stewart
Wow. That's one of the best summations of form vs. function I've seen
committed to a mailing list. Spot on.
--
-Doug
Christian Mohn
that looks as good as the .png you attached. You say you can't design a
logo, well, I sure as hell can't. ;-)
Christian
Owen Winkler
>
>> I'll kindly remind all who would reply that whether it would take you a
>> half hour or half a year to reproduce the designs you see and dislike,
>> it only takes a moment of thought to avoid insulting the people who did
>> already invest their own time and effort into creating what you see.
>
> If you're referring to anything I might have said, I am sorry.
That wasn't directed specifically at you, but just a general notice that
other people's product, whether inadequate, is work that deserves
respect in that it exists at all, whereas criticism is easy and etheric.
I appreciate candor, but I also think that with little effort it can be
phrased positively and respectfully, which the original message (not
yours, Mike) was not.
> No, this isn't a throwback to Animal Farm, it's simply an
> acknowledgement that I couldn't tell you why the structure of Habari's
> db code is better than WP's. It might be, it might not be. I just
> don't know. But I know instinctively that Habari's publish page kicks
> the living crap out of WordPress'. That's what it was designed to do.
> That's what it does. And I know it does.
>
> I'm not suggesting a segregation or fragmentation of the core
> developers; but let's acknowledge the fact that some people know about
> code, some know about design. If we can agree on that, then the next
> part should be easier, because
> aesthetics-by-the-committee-to-ensure-intact-egos is rarely a good
> idea.
I agree that everyone has an opinion, and that some opinions are worth
more than others on specific topics, due to experience or simply in the
way that a person's brain is wired to perceive a concept. However, in
following with the frank nature of this conversation in an effort to
remove the chaff from the grain there are some thoughts I would like to
add to the discussion.
There is no single arbiter decisions in this project. We may commit
some code or design quickly upon suggestion, but we can just as easily
roll it back if reasoned opposition exists. I hope that no guarantees
have been offered to anyone about taking ownership of the design
direction or visual signature of Habari because that would be a fallacy.
I am personally very willing to bend to your experience with graphic and
interaction design, considering that the design for the publish page is
wonderful work. Nonetheless, I am (and so are many others here) also
qualified to evaluate submitted designs in respect to interaction
design. There are a lot of people on our project with chops.
While you might not understand why Habari's database design is better
than some other software, if you were to query someone familiar with it,
they could provide some answer. You might not understand the answer,
but you would know that there is one. For design, I might not
understand why things look a certain way, and the explanation might be
"I think people will like or enjoy this more than other alternatives",
which I can't really argue with.
But I may expect some reason to exist for certain interactions beyond
"It feels good to me." In those cases, I would hope to offer some
alternative reason for why it should not be that way, just as I would
expect someone who doesn't like my code to offer an alternative to evaluate.
As a specific example of a thing I don't understand the reason for in
design, I offer the need to have matching looks between the Habari
software admin and the informational site.
I completely understand that a strong visual identity is a Good Thing.
But I am unable to arrive at my own conclusion as to what we should do
when we want the informational site to have a fresh look (as any project
is wont to do, without which many on this list could not subsist) while
keeping it married to a software interface that should for good reason
remain as static as possible.
Perhaps there will be disagreement with that last point, but barring a
full discussion on this single topic, I will leave that as my example of
why design review remains important.
Hey, maybe the answer is simple and obvious. I hope so, it'll make
things go so much more smoothly.
I am not opposed to visually linking these two very different
components. In fact, I would be glad to have such a design to replace
what we're using now. But it seems like the thinking is that we'll
design the site just once, and based solely on the input to the site in
the past week, I can't see how that could be true.
Please also take into account that many folks come here to learn. One
of our core objectives is to invite people who are novices at writing
code and operating within open source projects to join Habari and become
accustomed to how people with experience at these things really do it.
It's one of the beneficial things I took away from my early days with
WordPress, and it's something that I know other founders had hoped to
revive with Habari.
It would be fantastic if others in the project were able to help or
apprentice or at the least come to understand the design mentality of a
master by being involved somehow in that aspect of the project. I would
love it if you and our other designers would help foster this
fundamental Habari ideal. It's sometimes more demanding than just
producing product, but I think that this aspect of the project may even
be as important as producing the software itself. In general, this is
what makes people leaders around here.
Anyway, those are my opinions on the design stuff. I hope they are
well-received.
Owen
AJ
> Anyway, those are my opinions on the design stuff. I hope they are
> well-received.
Owen,
I would like to thank you not just for the words you have written but
for outlining the philosophy behind Habari so eloquently.
Not only has it made my belief and confidence in Habari itself stronger
but also given me the confidence to possibly try and contribute to the
project in terms of code.
You have made me a bigger believer in Habari today :)
AJ
Michael Heilemann
> apprentice or at the least come to understand the design mentality of a
> master by being involved somehow in that aspect of the project. I would
> love it if you and our other designers would help foster this
> fundamental Habari ideal. It's sometimes more demanding than just
> producing product, but I think that this aspect of the project may even
> be as important as producing the software itself. In general, this is
> what makes people leaders around here.
<big_applause.ogg>
I have nothing further to add, I hope you all have a wonderful xmas or
whatever you might be up to over the next few days.