I'll start off by saying that my hopes are that Bryan Veloso gets around to designing the official website at some point. I'm most definitely not giving him a deadline because that shouldn't be how you contribute to a project you love. You should just get on and do it. I've got faith you'll come through buddy but for now I can understand things not being the right time etc.
As such I'm going to talk about the mockups that have been going through the list and try and turn a pragmatic eye to them and set up a proper design discussion about these things because these things need direction.
I've heard that people say the website shouldn't tie up with the software as if we're beholden to this. We can have the website in one way, the installer in another and the actual software in another way. I think that's bollocks. Seriously. These areas don't have to beholden to each other, however they seriously do need to be linked together to provide a cohesive experience. Part of the joy of Habari from a design POV is that we're starting from the ground up, we can actually step back and take a minute to take stock.
So we've got the task of creating a quick and ready website that will allow (amongst other things) devs to talk about Habari in an official capacity, which is an important issue at the moment since the project doesn't have an official voice.
Before I jump into the actual design, lets consider the ethos behind the current crop of designs that have come through with Habari. We have tried at every stage to question every additional element that is put onto the page. Our core values here isn't about information overload, it's about putting all the right elements on the page that will be used on a regular basis, it's about simplifying and streamlining the design down to the essential areas. The fact that it's a minimal design is one that has been battered again and again because through simplicity we're able to make software that people will understand how to use and make the most of rather than being confused and moving on.
That ethos should therefore be moved into EVERY design we do. If our design philosophy was to make it as detailed as possible, then that's what the design elements should look like.
The second part is consistency in what we do through the life of the project. I don't want to be making any onerous precedence where we basically are putting anything up there because it's about speed. Even when we're in a rush we should remain true to the core values of the designs. If we decide in the future to go in a different direction then it'll be important to migrate all aspects at the same time etc.
So with that ethos in mind lets talk about what is essential at this stage (it'll differ I'm sure in versions down the line once we ebb closer to 1.0).
Here's my list.
1. We need the name Habari there. It should be big enough to see straight away so that people are clear as to where they are. I've discussed this before as to why we shouldn't and won't be putting an logo elements on the final page. Why? Because we haven't decided on it. It's that simple. Let's not put a visual associating Habari when really we haven't had to time to think through the implications. The logo will come through and when it does I'm sure we'll all be completely happy with it. Hopefully in a Firefox sort of way happy, since as far as I'm concerned that's one of the most (if not the most) successful internet icon of the past few years. Hey if we're going to have goals lets make them as high as possible.
2. The motto, which is Spread the Word!
3. An small explanation of what Habari means and what it actually is. This needs to be limited to either a sentence or 2 maximum. Should take 10 seconds to read and easily to digest that just gives the person who's visiting the site for the first time all the quick information about what they're looking at.
4. Calls to action. This is a simple idea. We want people to do things once they come to the site right? Otherwise why would be here. So what do we want the user to do? Well:
a) Download the source. b) Learn about Habari and what makes it special c) Contribute to the community d) For those that have been here before and want to see how the development is going maybe is planet habari like page. e) COntrinute to the Wiki and documentation
These are all that I can think of at the moment to be honest. It's these 5 calls to action. The thing is at this stage I don't think any one should take a higher preference to the other because we're building the community. We don't know what the majority of poeple coming to the site will want. SOme might be coming over to see what's going on, other to see what they can contribute, still others to download and play around with the software, others to hear about the development, however can anyone here actually tell me the precentage of users at this stage? No because we don't even have a developer's preview out yet, so we can decided which area should have a larger space than the other.
The way these are shown should ideally be flexible enough to add more calls to action for the foreseable future until we get closer to version 1.0
5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because they'll draw the user in.
First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping in, I dunno we'll see).
So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I think these are the latest versions of both):
1. Brian's mockup: The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come through.
The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this information on the front page now? I don't think so.
It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner however.
A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next few months anyway.
There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't actually there.
2. Dean's mockup: Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at the moment.
The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a tight and professional looking design.
Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose asshat.
The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
Hey I like it. Its clean and minimal. Without throwing too much Info at the users. Don't you think "Download" will be more appropriate Than "Source Code"
On Feb 3, 3:02 pm, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll start off by saying that my hopes are that Bryan Veloso gets around > to designing the official website at some point. I'm most definitely not > giving him a deadline because that shouldn't be how you contribute to a > project you love. You should just get on and do it. I've got faith > you'll come through buddy but for now I can understand things not being > the right time etc.
> As such I'm going to talk about the mockups that have been going through > the list and try and turn a pragmatic eye to them and set up a proper > design discussion about these things because these things need > direction.
> I've heard that people say the website shouldn't tie up with the > software as if we're beholden to this. We can have the website in one > way, the installer in another and the actual software in another way. I > think that's bollocks. Seriously. These areas don't have to beholden to > each other, however they seriously do need to be linked together to > provide a cohesive experience. Part of the joy of Habari from a design > POV is that we're starting from the ground up, we can actually step back > and take a minute to take stock.
> So we've got the task of creating a quick and ready website that will > allow (amongst other things) devs to talk about Habari in an official > capacity, which is an important issue at the moment since the project > doesn't have an official voice.
> Before I jump into the actual design, lets consider the ethos behind the > current crop of designs that have come through with Habari. We have > tried at every stage to question every additional element that is put > onto the page. Our core values here isn't about information overload, > it's about putting all the right elements on the page that will be used > on a regular basis, it's about simplifying and streamlining the design > down to the essential areas. The fact that it's a minimal design is one > that has been battered again and again because through simplicity we're > able to make software that people will understand how to use and make > the most of rather than being confused and moving on.
> That ethos should therefore be moved into EVERY design we do. If our > design philosophy was to make it as detailed as possible, then that's > what the design elements should look like.
> The second part is consistency in what we do through the life of the > project. I don't want to be making any onerous precedence where we > basically are putting anything up there because it's about speed. Even > when we're in a rush we should remain true to the core values of the > designs. If we decide in the future to go in a different direction then > it'll be important to migrate all aspects at the same time etc.
> So with that ethos in mind lets talk about what is essential at this > stage (it'll differ I'm sure in versions down the line once we ebb > closer to 1.0).
> Here's my list.
> 1. We need the name Habari there. It should be big enough to see > straight away so that people are clear as to where they are. I've > discussed this before as to why we shouldn't and won't be putting an > logo elements on the final page. Why? Because we haven't decided on it. > It's that simple. Let's not put a visual associating Habari when really > we haven't had to time to think through the implications. The logo will > come through and when it does I'm sure we'll all be completely happy > with it. Hopefully in a Firefox sort of way happy, since as far as I'm > concerned that's one of the most (if not the most) successful internet > icon of the past few years. Hey if we're going to have goals lets make > them as high as possible.
> 2. The motto, which is Spread the Word!
> 3. An small explanation of what Habari means and what it actually is. > This needs to be limited to either a sentence or 2 maximum. Should take > 10 seconds to read and easily to digest that just gives the person who's > visiting the site for the first time all the quick information about > what they're looking at.
> 4. Calls to action. This is a simple idea. We want people to do things > once they come to the site right? Otherwise why would be here. So what > do we want the user to do? Well:
> a) Download the source. > b) Learn about Habari and what makes it special > c) Contribute to the community > d) For those that have been here before and want to see how the > development is going maybe is planet habari like page. > e) COntrinute to the Wiki and documentation
> These are all that I can think of at the moment to be honest. It's these > 5 calls to action. The thing is at this stage I don't think any one > should take a higher preference to the other because we're building the > community. We don't know what the majority of poeple coming to the site > will want. SOme might be coming over to see what's going on, other to > see what they can contribute, still others to download and play around > with the software, others to hear about the development, however can > anyone here actually tell me the precentage of users at this stage? No > because we don't even have a developer's preview out yet, so we can > decided which area should have a larger space than the other.
> The way these are shown should ideally be flexible enough to add more > calls to action for the foreseable future until we get closer to version > 1.0
> 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > they'll draw the user in.
> First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > in, I dunno we'll see).
> So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > think these are the latest versions of both):
> 1. Brian's mockup: > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > through.
> The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
> It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > however.
> A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > few months anyway.
> There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > actually there.
> 2. Dean's mockup: > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > the moment.
> The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > tight and professional looking design.
> Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to > convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any > more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 > minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time > better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose > asshat.
> The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I > think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think > the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
> The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
This looks good to me as well. As I said before, we need to have something up, yesterday. If this means a K2 look until this is done, that is fine. Information is needed badly right now, not design perfection.
So I am +1 on following this path design wise, but I am also +1 getting something up now.
On Feb 3, 7:01 am, "BlueSaze" <blues...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey I like it. Its clean and minimal. Without throwing too much Info > at the users. Don't you think "Download" will be more appropriate Than > "Source Code"
> On Feb 3, 3:02 pm, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'll start off by saying that my hopes are that Bryan Veloso gets around > > to designing the official website at some point. I'm most definitely not > > giving him a deadline because that shouldn't be how you contribute to a > > project you love. You should just get on and do it. I've got faith > > you'll come through buddy but for now I can understand things not being > > the right time etc.
> > As such I'm going to talk about the mockups that have been going through > > the list and try and turn a pragmatic eye to them and set up a proper > > design discussion about these things because these things need > > direction.
> > I've heard that people say the website shouldn't tie up with the > > software as if we're beholden to this. We can have the website in one > > way, the installer in another and the actual software in another way. I > > think that's bollocks. Seriously. These areas don't have to beholden to > > each other, however they seriously do need to be linked together to > > provide a cohesive experience. Part of the joy of Habari from a design > > POV is that we're starting from the ground up, we can actually step back > > and take a minute to take stock.
> > So we've got the task of creating a quick and ready website that will > > allow (amongst other things) devs to talk about Habari in an official > > capacity, which is an important issue at the moment since the project > > doesn't have an official voice.
> > Before I jump into the actual design, lets consider the ethos behind the > > current crop of designs that have come through with Habari. We have > > tried at every stage to question every additional element that is put > > onto the page. Our core values here isn't about information overload, > > it's about putting all the right elements on the page that will be used > > on a regular basis, it's about simplifying and streamlining the design > > down to the essential areas. The fact that it's a minimal design is one > > that has been battered again and again because through simplicity we're > > able to make software that people will understand how to use and make > > the most of rather than being confused and moving on.
> > That ethos should therefore be moved into EVERY design we do. If our > > design philosophy was to make it as detailed as possible, then that's > > what the design elements should look like.
> > The second part is consistency in what we do through the life of the > > project. I don't want to be making any onerous precedence where we > > basically are putting anything up there because it's about speed. Even > > when we're in a rush we should remain true to the core values of the > > designs. If we decide in the future to go in a different direction then > > it'll be important to migrate all aspects at the same time etc.
> > So with that ethos in mind lets talk about what is essential at this > > stage (it'll differ I'm sure in versions down the line once we ebb > > closer to 1.0).
> > Here's my list.
> > 1. We need the name Habari there. It should be big enough to see > > straight away so that people are clear as to where they are. I've > > discussed this before as to why we shouldn't and won't be putting an > > logo elements on the final page. Why? Because we haven't decided on it. > > It's that simple. Let's not put a visual associating Habari when really > > we haven't had to time to think through the implications. The logo will > > come through and when it does I'm sure we'll all be completely happy > > with it. Hopefully in a Firefox sort of way happy, since as far as I'm > > concerned that's one of the most (if not the most) successful internet > > icon of the past few years. Hey if we're going to have goals lets make > > them as high as possible.
> > 2. The motto, which is Spread the Word!
> > 3. An small explanation of what Habari means and what it actually is. > > This needs to be limited to either a sentence or 2 maximum. Should take > > 10 seconds to read and easily to digest that just gives the person who's > > visiting the site for the first time all the quick information about > > what they're looking at.
> > 4. Calls to action. This is a simple idea. We want people to do things > > once they come to the site right? Otherwise why would be here. So what > > do we want the user to do? Well:
> > a) Download the source. > > b) Learn about Habari and what makes it special > > c) Contribute to the community > > d) For those that have been here before and want to see how the > > development is going maybe is planet habari like page. > > e) COntrinute to the Wiki and documentation
> > These are all that I can think of at the moment to be honest. It's these > > 5 calls to action. The thing is at this stage I don't think any one > > should take a higher preference to the other because we're building the > > community. We don't know what the majority of poeple coming to the site > > will want. SOme might be coming over to see what's going on, other to > > see what they can contribute, still others to download and play around > > with the software, others to hear about the development, however can > > anyone here actually tell me the precentage of users at this stage? No > > because we don't even have a developer's preview out yet, so we can > > decided which area should have a larger space than the other.
> > The way these are shown should ideally be flexible enough to add more > > calls to action for the foreseable future until we get closer to version > > 1.0
> > 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > > they'll draw the user in.
> > First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> > Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > > in, I dunno we'll see).
> > So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > > think these are the latest versions of both):
> > 1. Brian's mockup: > > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > > through.
> > The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> > It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
> > It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > > however.
> > A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > > few months anyway.
> > There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > > actually there.
> > 2. Dean's mockup: > > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > > the moment.
> > The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > > tight and professional looking design.
> > Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > > just for
On Feb 3, 6:59 am, "chrisjdavis" <chrisdmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This looks good to me as well. As I said before, we need to have > something up, yesterday. If this means a K2 look until this is done, > that is fine. Information is needed badly right now, not design > perfection.
> So I am +1 on following this path design wise, but I am also +1 > getting something up now.
Getting something up quickly should be #1 priority for everyone involved in this process. If someone has the time (I do on Sunday) to chop up Khaled's design, it could work.
> > > 1. Brian's mockup: > > > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > > > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > > > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > > > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > > > through.
I appreciate the critique. I believe that the best way to get what we ultimately want is to critique each others' designs on a foundational level and approach each design choice from a number of different perspectives. My mockup was intended to be a launching point to get others to try something from a different approach and, quite honestly, I didn't expect it to be all that well-received. I rather like what you've put together compared to my mockup and will probably hold on to my design for a theme idea down the line.
That said, there are a couple of things that I think need some revision. Even if these things aren't considered right now for time's sake, I think an evaluation would be a good idea later:
1. Button labels. "Source Code" sounds rather difficult to a lot of potential users; "Download" is much clearer and less daunting. "Planet" doesn't mean anything to a new user; "Community" might be a better choice. "News" should be come first, as there will be more of it at this stage than we may even anticipate currently.
2. Lack of information. Pictures (including screenshots) may be worth a thousand words, but those words may not always be enough to explain how different Habari is. If I wandered across this site via a link from a friend's blog, I would have no idea where to start except to dive right in and download something. Once I do that, what next?
A good example of how this kind of layout can be pulled off is http://rubyonrails.org/ - they provide info on subpages to do what's needed. The problem is that it's often not enough information for new users, and it's difficult to figure out where to go next.
Regardless of these two things, I think a design needs to be fleshed out in short order. I'll be more than happy to convert what you've created to markup if everyone would like to see this a reality; if we want info up ASAP, it may be in our best interest to start writing copy for the various subpages before that is even finished.
I like the look. They've all been usable from my POV, but all the points about new users are more than valid!
> 1. Button labels. "Source Code" sounds rather difficult to a lot of > potential users; "Download" is much clearer and less daunting. > "Planet" doesn't mean anything to a new user; "Community" might be a > better choice. "News" should be come first, as there will be more of > it at this stage than we may even anticipate currently.
On Feb 3, 5:02 am, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > they'll draw the user in.
Are you suggesting showing your mockups on installer/admin that have yet to be implemented in the code? Or is this a "down-the-road" feature of the home page? If the goal is to get something up *now*, how would showing advanced ideas of what *might* be there helpful in portraying the current state? Or are you suggesting using screenshots of the current interface? Should the page also talk about what other features *might* be in habari down the road, but arent'
> First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > in, I dunno we'll see).
Am I to understand then that your design philosophy is the bottom line for habari? That it's written in stone?
> So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > think these are the latest versions of both):
> 1. Brian's mockup: > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > through.
How are images accessible? chrisjdavis has already mentioned that buttons for fields should be default for accessibility. If all there is on the home page are a bunch of cute icons, how does that help some one with a disability visiting the site? I'm not one for not using graphic images, but there should be concise text to go along with that.
> The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
How is that much different than your "planet" concept, other than you are using a singular phrase that is ambiguous at best. News and Planet really are one in the same to me.
> It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > however.
> A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > few months anyway.
I highly doubt the average user visiting the site is going to immediately associate the "product" with a color. No more so than icons, IMO.
> There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > actually there.
Again, are you suggesting showing mockups for something that hasn't been implemented? They download the source, install, see an admin totally different than the home page, think they've done something wrong or worse.
> 2. Dean's mockup: > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > the moment.
> The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > tight and professional looking design.
> Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to > convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any > more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 > minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time > better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose > asshat.
> The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I > think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think > the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
> The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
I'm confused. You are basically knocking what's been put forth, saying you've spent all of 30minutes on what you think is superior to what's been put forth, and have no desire to further that design, and once again aren't offering source files to allow others to build on the design, or make it real code.
What really is the goal here? And how is using k2 in the interim not "branding" habari right off the bat? Seeing k2 default on the page would be no more harmful of using a green color, or a logo that might not be there a month from now ,IMO
I am all for helping code up any one of the designs (Brian, I learned I'm much better at .psd files than .ai but that's another discussion).
But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any more polished the final product is at this point.
> On Feb 3, 5:02 am, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > > they'll draw the user in.
> Are you suggesting showing your mockups on installer/admin that have > yet to be implemented in the code? Or is this a "down-the-road" > feature of the home page? If the goal is to get something up *now*, > how would showing advanced ideas of what *might* be there helpful in > portraying the current state? Or are you suggesting using screenshots > of the current interface? Should the page also talk about what other > features *might* be in habari down the road, but arent'> First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> > Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > > in, I dunno we'll see).
> Am I to understand then that your design philosophy is the bottom line > for habari? That it's written in stone?
> > So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > > think these are the latest versions of both):
> > 1. Brian's mockup: > > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > > through.
> How are images accessible? chrisjdavis has already mentioned that > buttons for fields should be default for accessibility. If all there > is on the home page are a bunch of cute icons, how does that help some > one with a disability visiting the site? I'm not one for not using > graphic images, but there should be concise text to go along with > that.
> > The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> > It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
> How is that much different than your "planet" concept, other than you > are using a singular phrase that is ambiguous at best. News and > Planet really are one in the same to me.
> > It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > > however.
> > A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > > few months anyway.
> I highly doubt the average user visiting the site is going to > immediately associate the "product" with a color. No more so than > icons, IMO.
> > There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > > actually there.
> Again, are you suggesting showing mockups for something that hasn't > been implemented? They download the source, install, see an admin > totally different than the home page, think they've done something > wrong or worse.
> > 2. Dean's mockup: > > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > > the moment.
> > The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > > tight and professional looking design.
> > Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > > just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to > > convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any > > more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 > > minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time > > better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose > > asshat.
> > The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I > > think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think > > the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
> > The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
> I'm confused. You are basically knocking what's been put forth, > saying you've spent all of 30minutes on what you think is superior to > what's been put forth, and have no desire to further that design, and > once again aren't offering source files to allow others to build on > the design, or make it real code.
> What really is the goal here? And how is using k2 in the interim not > "branding" habari right off the bat? Seeing k2 default on the page > would be no more harmful of using a green color, or a logo that might > not be there a month from now ,IMO
> I am all for helping code up any one of the designs (Brian, I learned > I'm much better at .psd files than .ai but that's another discussion).
> But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > more polished the final product is at this point.
> Let me get this right. Are we going with Habari right now? Even though > there is no page or link functionality?
> On Feb 3, 7:18 pm, "Michael Bishop" <bishopblogwo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 3, 5:02 am, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > > > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > > > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > > > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > > > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > > > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > > > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > > > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > > > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > > > they'll draw the user in.
> > Are you suggesting showing your mockups on installer/admin that have > > yet to be implemented in the code? Or is this a "down-the-road" > > feature of the home page? If the goal is to get something up *now*, > > how would showing advanced ideas of what *might* be there helpful in > > portraying the current state? Or are you suggesting using screenshots > > of the current interface? Should the page also talk about what other > > features *might* be in habari down the road, but arent'> First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > > > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > > > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> > > Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > > > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > > > in, I dunno we'll see).
> > Am I to understand then that your design philosophy is the bottom line > > for habari? That it's written in stone?
> > > So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > > > think these are the latest versions of both):
> > > 1. Brian's mockup: > > > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > > > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > > > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > > > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > > > through.
> > How are images accessible? chrisjdavis has already mentioned that > > buttons for fields should be default for accessibility. If all there > > is on the home page are a bunch of cute icons, how does that help some > > one with a disability visiting the site? I'm not one for not using > > graphic images, but there should be concise text to go along with > > that.
> > > The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > > > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > > > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> > > It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > > > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > > > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > > > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
> > How is that much different than your "planet" concept, other than you > > are using a singular phrase that is ambiguous at best. News and > > Planet really are one in the same to me.
> > > It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > > > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > > > however.
> > > A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > > > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > > > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > > > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > > > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > > > few months anyway.
> > I highly doubt the average user visiting the site is going to > > immediately associate the "product" with a color. No more so than > > icons, IMO.
> > > There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > > > actually there.
> > Again, are you suggesting showing mockups for something that hasn't > > been implemented? They download the source, install, see an admin > > totally different than the home page, think they've done something > > wrong or worse.
> > > 2. Dean's mockup: > > > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > > > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > > > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > > > the moment.
> > > The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > > > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > > > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > > > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > > > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > > > tight and professional looking design.
> > > Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > > > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > > > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > > > just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to > > > convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any > > > more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 > > > minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time > > > better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose > > > asshat.
> > > The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I > > > think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think > > > the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
> > > The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
> > I'm confused. You are basically knocking what's been put forth, > > saying you've spent all of 30minutes on what you think is superior to > > what's been put forth, and have no desire to further that design, and > > once again aren't offering source files to allow others to build on > > the design, or make it real code.
> > What really is the goal here? And how is using k2 in the interim not > > "branding" habari right off the bat? Seeing k2 default on the page > > would be no more harmful of using a green color, or a logo that might > > not be there a month from now ,IMO
> > I am all for helping code up any one of the designs (Brian, I learned > > I'm much better at .psd files than .ai but that's another discussion).
> > But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> > The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > > more polished the final product is at this point.
> On Feb 3, 3:36 pm, "Root" <atthe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Let me get this right. Are we going with Habari right now? Even though > > there is no page or link functionality?
> > On Feb 3, 7:18 pm, "Michael Bishop" <bishopblogwo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 3, 5:02 am, Khaled Abou Alfa <khaled.aboua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 5. Mockups. When people come to an open source software site they > > > > generally want to see what the actual software looks like as it informs > > > > them how mature or not the project actually is and whether or not they > > > > can be bothered to contribute to it. They say never judge a book by it's > > > > cover, however I'm sorry to say that in the crowded world of blogging > > > > software it's important that the software has that edge. And we need to > > > > market every area to pull in as many new contributors as possible and > > > > build the community as much as possible. The screenshots are our cover > > > > and as such we should be highlighting these on the front page because > > > > they'll draw the user in.
> > > Are you suggesting showing your mockups on installer/admin that have > > > yet to be implemented in the code? Or is this a "down-the-road" > > > feature of the home page? If the goal is to get something up *now*, > > > how would showing advanced ideas of what *might* be there helpful in > > > portraying the current state? Or are you suggesting using screenshots > > > of the current interface? Should the page also talk about what other > > > features *might* be in habari down the road, but arent'> First of all I'll say that I never do this, critique other people's > > > > designs however it's important to illustrate where I feel these are > > > > going wrong in relation to the thoughts I've written above.
> > > > Maybe I should create a document (or put it on the wiki) that sets out > > > > our design philosophy so that people can read that first before jumping > > > > in, I dunno we'll see).
> > > Am I to understand then that your design philosophy is the bottom line > > > for habari? That it's written in stone?
> > > > So lets look at the current designs on the table and how they fare (I > > > > think these are the latest versions of both):
> > > > 1. Brian's mockup: > > > > The first thing that I've got to say is it doesn't really follow the > > > > design ethos. There's a lot going on in the page. It does have some nice > > > > large chunky calls to action on the side. There's a lot of text there > > > > though. A lot less needs be said and that might be where images come > > > > through.
> > > How are images accessible? chrisjdavis has already mentioned that > > > buttons for fields should be default for accessibility. If all there > > > is on the home page are a bunch of cute icons, how does that help some > > > one with a disability visiting the site? I'm not one for not using > > > graphic images, but there should be concise text to go along with > > > that.
> > > > The issue is that the download section is given one kind of treatment, > > > > the what is habari is given another importance, documentation is given > > > > yet another set of importance and so on (see number 4).
> > > > It's also got information regarding the latest plugins and the latest > > > > theme. Maybe down the line but not now as we've only got like 1 theme > > > > and a handful of plugins. Is it really that important to put this > > > > information on the front page now? I don't think so.
> > > How is that much different than your "planet" concept, other than you > > > are using a singular phrase that is ambiguous at best. News and > > > Planet really are one in the same to me.
> > > > It's got the motto but not what the project is actually called right > > > > there at the top. There is space for it at the top left hand corner > > > > however.
> > > > A green colour has been added to this. This instantly is giving the site > > > > a branding direction which we've gone around the mill on this. Colour > > > > will come eventually (this could be just in the icons or whatever) > > > > however we shouldn't really be putting ourselves being associated with > > > > specific colours at the moment since they're bound to change in the next > > > > few months anyway.
> > > I highly doubt the average user visiting the site is going to > > > immediately associate the "product" with a color. No more so than > > > icons, IMO.
> > > > There is no pictures of the mockups on there so the instant grab isn't > > > > actually there.
> > > Again, are you suggesting showing mockups for something that hasn't > > > been implemented? They download the source, install, see an admin > > > totally different than the home page, think they've done something > > > wrong or worse.
> > > > 2. Dean's mockup: > > > > Well we've got colour in this one and the flower logo. Once again we've > > > > got a lot of words on the front page that well doesn't really need to be > > > > there from the word go. Maybe potentially down the line however not at > > > > the moment.
> > > > The pane on the right hand side is a good idea of icons for calls to > > > > action. That's the focus that people look at. The thing is that it's to > > > > the side. A lot of our current design mockups is centre based. I say > > > > this because it's decisions like this that might not seem like much to > > > > the casual user but if we get it right from now we link things up in a > > > > tight and professional looking design.
> > > > Now based on that I spent seriously 30 minutes on the attached mockup. > > > > It's just to illustrate where the design could have gone and how it > > > > keeps in with things. and keeps things simple. I've put the icons there > > > > just for show, so that you know what we're talking about. It's meant to > > > > convey the ideas I've discussed is all. I'm not planning on spending any > > > > more time on this as I've spent an hour writing this email and 30 > > > > minutes to illustrate my point, arguably I could have spent that time > > > > better but I'm trying to make a point here and I'm an extremely verbose > > > > asshat.
> > > > The design might seem far too married to the mockups at the moment and I > > > > think the mockup area might be much to have the same design but I think > > > > the idea is solid in how and where the mockups should be conveyed.
> > > > The idea is thinking about what's really essential on the page and why.
> > > I'm confused. You are basically knocking what's been put forth, > > > saying you've spent all of 30minutes on what you think is superior to > > > what's been put forth, and have no desire to further that design, and > > > once again aren't offering source files to allow others to build on > > > the design, or make it real code.
> > > What really is the goal here? And how is using k2 in the interim not > > > "branding" habari right off the bat? Seeing k2 default on the page > > > would be no more harmful of using a green color, or a logo that might > > > not be there a month from now ,IMO
> > > I am all for helping code up any one of the designs (Brian, I learned > > > I'm much better at .psd files than .ai but that's another discussion).
> > > But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > > > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> > > The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > > > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > > > more polished the final product is at this point.
> But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > more polished the final product is at this point.
I'd just like to say: That's how it is :)
Right now, we need a site, quickly. If it looks like the rest of Habari, that's good, but it doesn't have to be perfect *now*.
Nothing wrong with that. For one thing, what gets the SE 'bot juices going is freshness. So throw something up now, then freshen it (adding content of course as well!) in a week or so. Repeat as needed....
Isn't the POINT right now to be "present"? So that those who run across a mention of Habari while doing a search in google for "blogging tools" or whatever have a landing strip? A site now certainly does not have to be the site next week, or next month, or next year....
V
On Feb 3, 6:11 pm, Matthias Bauer <moef...@moeffju.net> wrote:
> > But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> > The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > > more polished the final product is at this point.
> I'd just like to say: That's how it is :)
> Right now, we need a site, quickly. If it looks like the rest of Habari, > that's good, but it doesn't have to be perfect *now*.
> Nothing wrong with that. For one thing, what gets the SE 'bot juices > going is freshness. So throw something up now, then freshen it > (adding content of course as well!) in a week or so. Repeat as > needed....
> Isn't the POINT right now to be "present"? So that those who run > across a mention of Habari while doing a search in google for > "blogging tools" or whatever have a landing strip? A site now > certainly does not have to be the site next week, or next month, or > next year....
> V
> On Feb 3, 6:11 pm, Matthias Bauer <moef...@moeffju.net> wrote:
> > On 03.02.2007 20:18 Michael Bishop wrote:
> > > But it seems the goal is to get something up, even if it doesn't fit > > > ALL the criteria of any design ethos.
> > > The design and content can be tweaked all along, just as the code is > > > being done on a daily basis. I disagree that the site has to be any > > > more polished the final product is at this point.
> > I'd just like to say: That's how it is :)
> > Right now, we need a site, quickly. If it looks like the rest of Habari, > > that's good, but it doesn't have to be perfect *now*.
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