hp.o website
Blake Johnson
some effort figuring out how to promote what we have. To that end, I
think it is time to push forward again on a new hp.o site design.
Back in March, <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev/
browse_thread/thread/d0a86a00716ef121/fd20576ba18abe13?
lnk=gst&q=website#fd20576ba18abe13">Khaled put together some mockups
for a new hp.o website</a>. Owen actually started the process of
converting these mockups into an Habari theme for hp.o. I have picked
up where Owen left off. See the results here:
http://demo.blakerobertjohnson.com/
I would like to get some feedback/discussion on a few topics. First of
all, there is the text:
"Habari is a free next-generation open-source blogging platform
created by the community for the community. Download the latest stable
version."
This is our elevator pitch, as it were. Does it adequately describe
what Habari is? Does it distinguish Habari from similar products?
Next there is the question of how to promote what many of us feel is a
principle selling point of Habari: the community. In the mockup
thread, various people lamented the loss of the community blog and
users list on the front page. You can see that I have kept these
elements below the screencast area. This has the unfortunate effect of
pushing this content below-the-fold on many screens. Another option is
to add a sidebar to the design. This sidebar would contain the latest
post from the community blog, -users, and maybe a featured theme or
plugin. You can see what that could look like here (not a complete
theme):
http://home.morgante.net/habari/
I feel that the sidebar sacrifices a bit of the clean aesthetic of
Khaled's design; however, it does make this community content
immediately visible. Do people like the sidebar? If we want to keep
the sidebar, do any of our designers have suggestions for how to make
it look more integrated into the layout of the page?
Let me hear your thoughts. I'll try my best to bring some consensus
out of the resulting noise.
Chris Meller
Graham Christensen
the same color as non-links (free, open-source), and b) it doesn't look
"friendly". It looks laboratory and clean, and monotonous. In general,
it doesn't make me feel good to look at that page. IMO, the hp.o site
needs to be as friendly as possible, and that the message we need to
send (imo again) is that you can really /use/ this product, and it won't
be scary to do so.
Graham Christensen
http://itrebal.com - Customized Web Hosting
Graham.Ch...@iamgraham.net
Arthus Erea
more usable and brings the community up front.
I would also like to see some of the additional copy from Khaled's
original mockups restored (below).
On Jul 27, 4:57 pm, Graham Christensen
> The one big thing I notice about that page, is a) the "download" link is
> the same color as non-links (free, open-source)
highlight anything besides links. No matter what, only links should be
blue in that case.
As a preferred tagline, I offer this (refined by ideas from
ringmaster): "Habari is a next-generation open-source blogging
platform created by the community. Download the latest version and
help to define the future of blogging."
Thoughts:
* Free and open-source are not both needed. Open-source implies free
* Whenever I am confronted by something which says it is "created by x
for x" I am suspicious. Why *shouldn't* the same people who create it
want to use it? Also, the word "community" already includes both of
those: users and developers alike.
* I don't like saying "Download our..." because I think we should keep
possesives out of the 'tagline' - we want the software to belong to
the whole community, which will soon include the downloader - not
whoever happens to be running the site.
> and b) it doesn't look
> "friendly". It looks laboratory and clean, and monotonous. In general,
> it doesn't make me feel good to look at that page. IMO, the hp.o site
> needs to be as friendly as possible, and that the message we need to
> send (imo again) is that you can really /use/ this product, and it won't
> be scary to do so.
site - it calls out for you to project yourself onto it. With the
screencast and some more real content, I don't think it we'll have to
worry about it being monotonous. That being said, I think we could do
with some spicing up.
I think we should also feature Getting Support more - it's one of the
top reasons people will be coming (back) to the site. I'll have a demo
of what I mean in a jiffy.
> Graham Christensen
>
> http://itrebal.com- Customized Web Hosting
> Graham.Christen...@iamgraham.net
Scott Merrill
> As a preferred tagline, I offer this (refined by ideas from
> ringmaster): "Habari is a next-generation open-source blogging
> platform created by the community. Download the latest version and
> help to define the future of blogging."
>
> Thoughts:
> * Free and open-source are not both needed. Open-source implies free
DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!
"Open source" _does not_ imply free. It merely means that you have
access to the source, not that you are permitted to do anything with
it. We drastically short-sell the Free Software movement by
conflating the two notions.
> * Whenever I am confronted by something which says it is "created by x
> for x" I am suspicious. Why *shouldn't* the same people who create it
> want to use it? Also, the word "community" already includes both of
> those: users and developers alike.
The people who create software are not always users of that software.
Moreover, in most situations, "regular" users do not truly have the
ears of the developers. There's either a profit motive, or some
personal motivation, or an assumption that one party knows better than
others other what's best for the users. There are plenty of examples
of each of these, throughout proprietary AND free software.
I like the idea of inviting our users to participate in shaping the
product they use. That was one of the reasons many of us started
using WordPress; and when that changed it was one of the reasons many
of us left WordPress.
> * I don't like saying "Download our..." because I think we should keep
> possesives out of the 'tagline' - we want the software to belong to
> the whole community, which will soon include the downloader - not
> whoever happens to be running the site.
That's a very good point.
> > and b) it doesn't look
>> "friendly". It looks laboratory and clean, and monotonous. In general,
>> it doesn't make me feel good to look at that page. IMO, the hp.o site
>> needs to be as friendly as possible, and that the message we need to
>> send (imo again) is that you can really /use/ this product, and it won't
>> be scary to do so.
>
> Respectfully, i disagree. I think a clean site is also an inviting
> site - it calls out for you to project yourself onto it. With the
> screencast and some more real content, I don't think it we'll have to
> worry about it being monotonous. That being said, I think we could do
> with some spicing up.
Site design is going to be a vim-versus-emacs debate: for every idea
submitted, there will be some who hate it and some who despise it. I
think we should have a dedicated HP.o working group committed to the
task of making the site look the way they think it should look. The
working group should be comprised of web site designers: people who
have several years of verifiable experience in developing sites for
specific audiences. These folks need to understand how to organize
content and present links to the user to drive them to the places that
they need to go. The working group needs to understand usability, and
ease of use, and have a firm understanding of _real_ web users.
Needless to say, I am categorically excluded from participating in the
working group. I'm sure that we have some folks on board who have the
requisite experience, and I think we should give them a wide berth to
go forth and create something wonderful.
Meanwhile, the rest of us can sit back here and haggle over sentence
structure for our elevator pitch. :)
> I think we should also feature Getting Support more - it's one of the
> top reasons people will be coming (back) to the site. I'll have a demo
> of what I mean in a jiffy.
I concur: getting help should be a prominent link.
Arthus Erea
On Jul 27, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Scott Merrill wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Arthus Erea <arthu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> As a preferred tagline, I offer this (refined by ideas from
>> ringmaster): "Habari is a next-generation open-source blogging
>> platform created by the community. Download the latest version and
>> help to define the future of blogging."
>>
>> Thoughts:
>> * Free and open-source are not both needed. Open-source implies free
>
> DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!
>
> "Open source" _does not_ imply free. It merely means that you have
> access to the source, not that you are permitted to do anything with
> it. We drastically short-sell the Free Software movement by
> conflating the two notions.
Technically, yes. Does the average user know that? No. The average
user really doesn't care if something is open source, free software,
or free as in beer–so long as they get to use it. If you would prefer
we call it "free" and remove the open source, fine with me, but I
don't think we need to do so.
>> * Whenever I am confronted by something which says it is "created
>> by x
>> for x" I am suspicious. Why *shouldn't* the same people who create it
>> want to use it? Also, the word "community" already includes both of
>> those: users and developers alike.
>
> The people who create software are not always users of that software.
> Moreover, in most situations, "regular" users do not truly have the
> ears of the developers. There's either a profit motive, or some
> personal motivation, or an assumption that one party knows better than
> others other what's best for the users. There are plenty of examples
> of each of these, throughout proprietary AND free software.
Even if they do not use the software, they are still part of the
community. Everybody involved with the software is a part of the
community, which invariably means both users (who it is made "for")
and developers (who make it). Since this is made by the community, it
means it is made by (some) users.
>
> I like the idea of inviting our users to participate in shaping the
> product they use. That was one of the reasons many of us started
> using WordPress; and when that changed it was one of the reasons many
> of us left WordPress.
How does that not do so? We say it is created by the community, not
some closed group. If I download it, I become part of the community.
Thus, I am invited to help create it.
I am very leery of shelving this off into some closed working group.
For one thing, I don't think we should put in place "exlusions." What
is defined as verifiable experience? As with all things Habari, it
should be about whether you have the passion to participate, not the
experience.
Also, I think we risk haggling too much over design (whether in a
small working group or not). I think it is important that a HP.o gets
a rebranding soon, as we are looking to entice new users with the
release of 0.5.
Michael C. Harris
> On Jul 27, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Scott Merrill wrote:
> >
> > Site design is going to be a vim-versus-emacs debate: for every idea
There's a debate ??? ;)
> > submitted, there will be some who hate it and some who despise it. I
> > think we should have a dedicated HP.o working group committed to the
> > task of making the site look the way they think it should look. The
> > working group should be comprised of web site designers: people who
> > have several years of verifiable experience in developing sites for
> > specific audiences. These folks need to understand how to organize
> > content and present links to the user to drive them to the places that
> > they need to go. The working group needs to understand usability, and
> > ease of use, and have a firm understanding of _real_ web users.
> > Needless to say, I am categorically excluded from participating in the
> > working group. I'm sure that we have some folks on board who have the
> > requisite experience, and I think we should give them a wide berth to
> > go forth and create something wonderful.
>
> I am very leery of shelving this off into some closed working group.
> For one thing, I don't think we should put in place "exlusions." What
> is defined as verifiable experience? As with all things Habari, it
> should be about whether you have the passion to participate, not the
> experience.
>
> Also, I think we risk haggling too much over design (whether in a
> small working group or not). I think it is important that a HP.o gets
> a rebranding soon, as we are looking to entice new users with the
> release of 0.5.
Personally, I'd be very happy for a WG to be responsible for hp.o, to
report at important points. There are no exclusions in a WG, according
to the WG docs.
--
Michael C. Harris, School of CS&IT, RMIT University
http://twofishcreative.com/michael/blog
IRC: michaeltwofish #habari
Blake Johnson
wrote:
> Personally, I'd be very happy for a WG to be responsible for hp.o, to
> report at important points. There are no exclusions in a WG, according
> to the WG docs.
>
on the wiki page:
http://wiki.habariproject.org/en/working_groups/branding
Whether or not there is a WG, our current method of WG communication
is through habari-dev. So, the conversation is still going to happen
on this list and on #habari for now.
>I would also like to see some of the additional copy from Khaled's
>original mockups restored (below).
then this content can go below the fold without interfering with
community-oriented elements.
> The one big thing I notice about that page, is a) the "download" link is
> the same color as non-links (free, open-source)
leads to a page explaining Habari's licensing.
> I think we should also feature Getting Support more - it's one of the
> top reasons people will be coming (back) to the site. I'll have a demo
> of what I mean in a jiffy.
"support" link back to the top of the page, but on the current hp.o
site this links to habari-users. Instead, it should probably link to a
page describing how to get support. In fact, let me add that now.
> Site design is going to be a vim-versus-emacs debate: for every idea
we can create something which has broad appeal, though. Also, even
those that don't have a strong aesthetic sense should still be able to
contribute their thoughts on exactly what message it is that we are
trying to communicate. This latter piece is half of what I am trying
to accomplish in this thread.
--Blake
rick c
and user manual.The three will be tied together in a user's mind.
I do ask that some consideration be given to aging eyes. Everyone who
will use Habari isn't young. The regular text is still a strain for me
to read, and the text where the screencast would be is basically
illegible. Legibility and a good aesthetic aren't conflicting
requirements. :)
Rick Cockrum
Blake Johnson
theme last night. Thank you to everyone who has been provided feedback
and ideas to get this out.
However, we are not done yet! We should continue to refine what we
have as well as explore new possibilities and ideas. So, if you have
further thoughts, please share them.
--Blake
Michael Heilemann
--
Michael Heilemann
http://binarybonsai.com