Validation -r487
Root
of character encoding per our previous posts / issues on this
subject.
The CSS validator gives one error and 79 warnings. A fair number of
the warnings can be discounted (the ones about background colors - I
wish the validator would stick to its job). But a number are
substantive.
Rather than rehash the whole lot here it would assist the devs to
validate themselves so they can see the issues. No serious theme
development is going to start until the thing validates out of the
box. Until then we can't fault find on our own stuff.
Matthias Bauer
> For xhtml the validator only gives a tentative validation for the want
> of character encoding per our previous posts / issues on this
> subject.
The missing charset has been fixed days ago.
> The CSS validator gives one error and 79 warnings. A fair number of
> the warnings can be discounted (the ones about background colors - I
> wish the validator would stick to its job). But a number are
> substantive.
The CSS validator gives NO errors and 38 warnings for a fresh Habari
install using habari-k2. If you validated against CSS 2.1 instead of CSS
3.0, you'll get ONE error (for overflow-y, which is defined in CSS 3 and
widely supported in CSS2 browsers), and 20 warnings.
ALL warnings are "Same colors for color and background-color in two
contexts".
> Rather than rehash the whole lot here it would assist the devs to
> validate themselves so they can see the issues. No serious theme
> development is going to start until the thing validates out of the
> box. Until then we can't fault find on our own stuff.
Unless you come up with a detailed problem report *and* give us
information how to *reproduce* it, this will be my last mail on this topic.
-Matt
Root
following?
Scott Merrill
> Does it say anywhere in the docs that CSS3 is the standard we are
> following?
No one has ever said that we're pursuing CSS3. By validating against
CSS3, you avoid the warning about the overflow-y, since it's included in
CSS3. I have no idea when CSS3 will be widely adopted/supported.
I just validated my test install against both CSS2.1 and CSS2, and get
the same results as reported by Matthias: 1 error (the overflow-y), and
~20 warnings (all the same warning):
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skippy.net%2Fhabari%2F&warning=1&profile=css21&usermedium=all
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skippy.net%2Fhabari%2F&warning=1&profile=css2&usermedium=all
I don't know much about CSS. If you know how to resolve these warnings,
do please open a ticket to describe the fix (and include a patch, if
possible!).
--
GPG 9CFA4B35 | ski...@skippy.net | http://skippy.net/
Root
minutae of this stuff - the so called purists - to move somewhere
else. The gurus can get on with the php. And we will just do our
thing. Like making sure folks can actually see the darn thing. So I am
starting my own project which is up already. FYI CSS 3 is not a
recommended standard. But who cares?
On Feb 3, 2:31 pm, Scott Merrill <ski...@skippy.net> wrote:
> Root wrote:
> > Does it say anywhere in the docs that CSS3 is the standard we are
> > following?
>
> No one has ever said that we're pursuing CSS3. By validating against
> CSS3, you avoid the warning about the overflow-y, since it's included in
> CSS3. I have no idea when CSS3 will be widely adopted/supported.
>
> I just validated my test install against both CSS2.1 and CSS2, and get
> the same results as reported by Matthias: 1 error (the overflow-y), and
> ~20 warnings (all the same warning):http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ski...http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ski...
Scott Merrill
> I think it might be appropriate for folk who are interested in the
> minutae of this stuff - the so called purists - to move somewhere
> else. The gurus can get on with the php. And we will just do our
> thing. Like making sure folks can actually see the darn thing. So I am
> starting my own project which is up already. FYI CSS 3 is not a
> recommended standard. But who cares?
I'm having a very hard time understanding your messages, Root.
You seem to be making some distinction between "gurus" and some other
class of people, and that there's some fundamental disconnect preventing
any kind of collaboration. I simply don't see that. I don't understand
why you would go anywhere else -- or advocate others to do the same --
when we're all trying to get Habari into a workable initial state.
Could you please articulate in plain language what you are saying above?
Do you feel there's some unidentified problem? Or do you feel that
you've identified a problem and that no one is paying attention?
As for CSS3, I'll repeat that no one has recommended or advocated that
we use it for Habari. It is a fact worth identifying that the Habari k2
theme validates as CSS3. That fact should not be read as implication
that Habari will be strictly CSS3. No conversation has yet been
initiated about which level of CSS Habari should pursue. If this is
something with which you have expertise, do please participate! Share
with us your expertise. Tell us what you perceive to be the pros and
the cons of the options available to us.
Root
to list the issues in the tracker.
The CSS thing will go in the WIKI.
http://code.google.com/p/habarithemes/
We do not seem to be able to have a sensible discussion here about any
of the stuff which is important to me. Like drop down menus and
accessibility. Like browser support. Like useability. Like a lot of
stuff. Some of Matthias stuff is just plain ignorant. And I have
noticed a lot of very good designers just don't bother coming here any
more. You treat accessibilty as being anything that won't disturb the
*designers* vision. Our lives would be a lot easier if we didn't do
this stuff. But then we wouldn't be web standards devs, and our sites
wouldn't be readable by a lot of folk. Like WordPress stuff which is
generally hit and miss beginning with the forum and the default theme.
We deserve to be better - A WHOLE LOT BETTER - than that. But it needs
leadership, it needs direction and it needs control. So I am going to
do my own thing. You guys can just copy and paste when we are ready.
You'll be more than welcome.
> >> ~20 warnings (all the same warning):http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ski......
Scott Merrill
> I am beginning to list the issues in the tracker.
Which tracker? The Habari project tracker, or the tracker for your
habarithemes project?
> The CSS thing will go in the WIKI.
Which wiki, the Habari community wiki, or the wiki on the habarithemes
project?
> http://code.google.com/p/habarithemes/
I do wish you wouldn't bifurcate things so early. One of the
long-standing complaints against WordPress is the lack of meaningful
integration between the project website and the various add-on websites
(themes, plugins, codex, etc).
> We do not seem to be able to have a sensible discussion here about any
> of the stuff which is important to me. Like drop down menus and
> accessibility. Like browser support. Like useability. Like a lot of
> stuff.
I do not recall seeing any conversations started about usability. To
say that we are unable to have a sensible conversation is a bit
premature, I think.
If you have a concern, it is _completely_ within your power to bring it
up for discussion. You'll find people willing to listen if you present
it in a mature, positive manner. Explain what it is you want to
achieve; explain how the current implementation (or lack thereof) is
problematic; and explain why your proposal is the best course of action.
Be willing to listen to disagreements with an open mind, and be willing
to explain and re-explain yourself multiple times.
Those of us working on the code needed _something_ with which to work in
order to test ideas, and to have a basic level of functionality in order
to get the core infrastructure in place. Nothing that currently exists
in the code should be considered immutable. Instead of assuming that
decisions have been locked into place, assume instead that we knowingly
chose the most expedient path to a minimally functional product. We are
aware of some of the ramifications of our decision, and ignorant of others.
Do please help us _now_ to fix things, before sheer inertia and an
ever-expanding codebase makes future changes harder.
> Some of Matthias stuff is just plain ignorant.
Which stuff in particular is ignorant? I am too ignorant to even
recognize ignorance in someone else. If you have expertise, please help
us all learn. Please try hard to do so in a mature, positive manner.
Try hard to avoid abusive or insulting language: focus on what you would
do, not what someone else has already done.
If you have a specific point of view, _no one_ will appreciate it until
you can successfully articulate it to the other participants. What's
obvious to you is not obvious to others; and it's certainly not obvious
to me. Help me understand your concerns and your point of view.
I might not agree with you right away. It might be a lengthy, iterative
process as we all work back and forth toward a common ground upon which
we can all agree. We might each have to make serious sacrifices about
some things in order to gain traction / effect change on other things.
That is the nature of a meritocratic, community-driven process. No one
person can say "this is how it's going to be". Instead, lots of people
say "this is how I'd like it to be", and we work out the nuanced
implications of that in a public way.
> And I have
> noticed a lot of very good designers just don't bother coming here any
> more. You treat accessibilty as being anything that won't disturb the
> *designers* vision.
I disagree. I think many of us are waiting for someone with real
usability expertise to _get involved_. I have zero usability expertise.
I can parrot back stuff I've read, but that does not mean that I have
an honest understanding of the ramifications of any particular decision.
If you have usability experience, please communicate that to us. Help
us know what to do, as opposed to just saying we've done it wrong.
> We deserve to be better - A WHOLE LOT BETTER - than that. But it needs
> leadership, it needs direction and it needs control. So I am going to
> do my own thing. You guys can just copy and paste when we are ready.
> You'll be more than welcome.
I agree whole-heartedly that we can and should do better than existing
products. I agree that leadership is necessary for many aspects of the
Habari project. I disagree that going off to do it yourself is the best
way. That runs completely contrary to the meritocratic model upon which
we have started Habari.
If you want to lead the usability initiatives within Habari, then simply
step up and start participating! Demonstrate to us -- _all_ of us --
that you know what you're talking about and that you can educate others.
Show to the community that you are a committed, focused participant,
and you will easily earn the leadership you feel is necessary. In this
way, there will be a documented history behind your position, and you
will have a lot of people willing to trust you on future decisions.
Working in isolation of the larger project does not help us, and it does
not take advantage of the larger community spirit.
I politely suggest that you re-consider your project. Do please
consider participating here, on this list, where you can educate others,
and hopefully even learn a few things from them.
Cheers,
Scott
Scott Merrill
> http://code.google.com/p/habarithemes/
Root, I'd like to discuss publicly a few of the things on your project's
home page:
"A couple of weeks in the Habari project has been enough
to show me that interface designers and themers are about
as popular as Osama Bin Laden at your sister's wedding.
Are you fed up with photoshop? Presentational markup?
The wrong DTD? So am I."
I'm fed with up photoshop; but I don't have the skills necessary to
produce anything to add to the conversation. I can almost guarantee you
that a XHTML theme would get _at least_ as much interest as the
Photoshop mockups. Do please submit working XHTML + CSS as attachments
to a message to this list for people to evaluate.
"Do you find it difficult to make yourself heard? Do you
care about semantic markup - about useability, about
accessibility?"
In what way, specifically, are you finding it hard to make yourself
heard? You posted a flurry of messages to the list reporting problems.
We tried hard to address each of these problems. We encouraged you to
post to the issue tracker, so that we would have a documented history of
what was broken and how it was fixed.
I don't specifically recall any messages from you advocating a specific
point of view. If you posted them, then please accept my apologies: I
often skim over messages that look like they're outside my area of
focus. Sometimes you'll need to post more than once, since the mailing
lists are very busy.
Posting to the issue tracker is another way to advocate change. Your
ticket will be reviewed, and discussion may ensue. That discussion will
be localized to the ticket. Anyone subscribed to the -issues list (like
I am) will get an email every time a new comment is added. In this way,
lots of eyeballs will still see your recommendations. And,
incidentally, I pay attention to every -issue message. To me, issues
carry a greater weight than mailing list messages.
"A note to testers. We value testers and their feedback.
Folks with a desire to test stuff who may not necessarily
have the skills to submit a patch are still making a
very valuable contribution."
I contend that the exact same sentiment holds true within Habari. Sure,
we _like_ patches: it makes our jobs easier! We want to encourage
people to submit patches (and to learn how, if they are so interested).
No one is _requiring_ that a patch be supplied.
As an example, I said to you:
"If you know how to resolve these warnings, do please
open a ticket to describe the fix (and include a
patch, if possible!)."
http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev/msg/0fdb47d18ea6f5d7
If you know how to fix the problems, a patch would be _great_! If you
don't know how to make a patch, but you still know how to fix the
problems, simply describe the fix in as much detail as is possible in
the body of the ticket.
There is no _requirement_ for patches. They help us a lot, but they are
not the only way you can participate.
Matthias Bauer
> I think it might be appropriate for folk who are interested in the
> minutae of this stuff - the so called purists - to move somewhere
> else. The gurus can get on with the php. And we will just do our
> thing. Like making sure folks can actually see the darn thing. So I am
> starting my own project which is up already. FYI CSS 3 is not a
> recommended standard. But who cares?
The K2 theme is using exactly one CSS 3 property (overflow-y), about
which the following is said on the 'net:
> Although the CSS3 box model module in which these properties are defined is still a working draft, Mozilla does support them without prefix, because they are already widely used.
from: http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/09/overflow
Yes, that post dates to 2004.
BTW, the WordPress k2 theme has exactly the same "problem". Didn't keep
it from becoming one of the most popular themes around.
So, summa summarum: Browser that understand CSS-3, or at least the
overflow-y property, use it. The others ignore it. There's nothing
special about the Habari K2 theme. Habari as such does not use any CSS,
that's what themes are for. Thus, accessibility is also a theme issue.
The one thing thing that seems to be unclear, though, is this:
The stripped K2 Theme that is currently in Habari trunk is NOT in *ANY
WAY* complete, the "official" theme, or ANYTHING. It's a neat-looking
placeholder for development until something else comes along.
Thus, IMO, hacking the current Habari K2 version is futile. If anything,
extend Habari to support all features the normal K2 version uses. Even
better, make a theme that fits your wishes and submit it for Habari. All
the flamewars in the world will not magically produce a great default
theme for Habari.
Any way, good luck with your project.
-Matt
Root
shown me in addressing my issue.
I do not want this to be a distraction to the fine work that most of
the Habari devs are doing. But this boils down in my view to 2 things.
Dialogue and Patches.
Patches
Any one who knows the first thing about me will know that I am going
to release code for the interface.
Until then I am going to take the side swipes about coded solutions
and ignore them (not yours I might add).
Dialogue
I feel it is going to be a lot easier to develop in an atmosphere
where we are sharing a similar vision and where I can contribute
without being flamed. My first post on K2 was positive, contributory,
encouraged dialogue and offered to help. It certainly pointed out the
deficiencies. I aimed off for the fact it is a hacked placeholder. But
wait. Now it is going in the zip. Unedited apparently.
Why does it not surprise me that K2 validates to CSS3 of all things?
It is not even a recognised specification. So when I say in a post
that the DTD is malformed I do not expect to need in every case to
explain what I mean. Nor I want to repeatedly point out the absence of
a charset while everybody swears blind it is in there. But nor I
expect the dev who purports to answer my question to be validating
against a non existent standard while - by implication - attacking my
professional capability - albeit in a limited sphere. Matthias does
not understand why we want a theme lib. That's his problem. We will
add our own. Matthias does not know what presentational mark up is.
Fine. Matthias has probably never heard of semantic mark up. His own
blog has serious validation and positioning errors. The *designers*
want drop down menus? They want centered admin panels? They serve up
images about 2500 pixels wide? And these are the guys we need to
negotiate our way past? Forget it.
In the way that php coders need to get on and code we need to get on
and do our thing with other people who understand and care what we are
talking about. Understood in the right way this is a very positive
development. We can shake off the photoshop induced inertia and get on
with it.
I no longer have any confidence that mark up and CSS offered up in
this forum by way of a patch is going to be judged by any body who
knows whether it is any good or not. That is the effect Matthias has
had on me.
I am sorry. But that is it. I have been in one project dominated by
shitty interface code. I don't want to be in another.
And any one who feels the same can join me. And if they don't I will
work alone and distribute direct to the end user. A couple of folk
used some of my old themes and found them useful. That was long before
the CSS 3, *guaranteed not to render fully in IE* and photoshop guys
even got started.
So here is to Habari and a happy future.
Owen Winkler
>
> I think it might be appropriate for folk who are interested in the
> minutae of this stuff - the so called purists - to move somewhere
> else. The gurus can get on with the php. And we will just do our
> thing. Like making sure folks can actually see the darn thing. So I am
> starting my own project which is up already. FYI CSS 3 is not a
> recommended standard. But who cares?
No, this would not be appropriate, because your input on theme
development outside of the core project will not have as direct an
influence if it is not able to be evaluated by the core group.
If you want the theme in Habari to change, you are welcome to detail
specific issues you have with it and potential corrections.
Regarding your emails in general, I have also found them consistently
lacking in the detail required to act upon them (Which warnings? Name
one. Indicate its cause.) and too often have been unable to decipher
what point you're trying to make at all.
An example: "For xhtml the validator only gives a tentative
validation for the want
of character encoding per our previous posts / issues on this
subject." This is not a complete sentence. I mention this not to be
the grammar police, but because perhaps if it was a complete sentence,
I would be able to understand what point you were trying to convey.
In this example, are you trying to say "The XHTML validator only gives
tentative validation due to the lack of a character encoding markup in
the theme source"? In which case the answer is simple and has already
been offered: The character encoding should be supplied in the HTTP
response headers. When done, it will obviate the need for an actual
tag in the theme source, which should not be the ultimate arbiter of
what character set should be employed on a page, anyway.
But I don't know if that's your concern for sure, and I am under the
impression that the last time someone gave that answer it wasn't the
one for your question, so I really don't know what you're trying to
get at. Maybe you're not undertsanding the replies? I have no idea.
It seems to me that Matt has been very generous in his replies to you.
If you say that there are all sorts of errors in the theme and Matt
replies with the incredulous notion that this is not the case,
indicating that he has run the theme through the validator and not
seen those results, I'm not sure who has implied more insult.
Trying to decipher your messages so that we can act on them is taking
a significant amount of time. We genuinely want your input, but
because of the lack of detail and odd grammar, we don't understand
what you're going on about. I suggest that you try harder to make
yourself understood (by being more succinct) before assuming that we
don't want your input.
Owen
Root
On Feb 3, 5:41 pm, "Owen Winkler" <epit...@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott Merrill
> Scott I would like to thank you for the patience and courtesy you have
> shown me in addressing my issue.
> I do not want this to be a distraction to the fine work that most of
> the Habari devs are doing. But this boils down in my view to 2 things.
> Dialogue and Patches.
Dialogue is a fundamental aspect of a healthy community. We very much
want a healthy community.
> Patches
> Any one who knows the first thing about me will know that I am going
> to release code for the interface.
I don't know the first thing about you, Root. To assume that many of
the participants in Habari know much about you might be a fallacy. Even
if they do know about you, your participation in Habari might well
reveal things about you that they did not know.
> Until then I am going to take the side swipes about coded solutions
> and ignore them (not yours I might add).
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what "swipes"
have occurred.
> Dialogue
> I feel it is going to be a lot easier to develop in an atmosphere
> where we are sharing a similar vision and where I can contribute
> without being flamed.
To assume that everyone will share your vision for the length of their
participation is a grave mistake.
For example, Chris, Owen, Rich and I shared a basic vision about what we
wanted to do with Habari. As soon as we set about actually implementing
that vision, many assumptions were brought to light. These assumptions
conflicted with one another, and while we still shared the same overall
vision, we needed to hash out a lot of practical nitty-gritty in order
to get closer to that vision.
So, too, will it be with habarithemes. Without a clear declaration of
vision, and without continued communication with all participants, it
will be hard to realize your goals.
> My first post on K2 was positive, contributory,
> encouraged dialogue and offered to help. It certainly pointed out the
> deficiencies. I aimed off for the fact it is a hacked placeholder. But
> wait. Now it is going in the zip. Unedited apparently.
No one has ever said that an unedited K2 will be distributed with the
Habari release. Can you please present a link to such a claim?
> Why does it not surprise me that K2 validates to CSS3 of all things?
Why are you harping on CSS3? This has been addressed at least twice.
Let me unequivocably say this:
** NO DECISION HAS BEEN MADE AS TO THE CSS REQUIREMENTS FOR HABARI. **
I invite you to be part of the decision making process.
> So when I say in a post
> that the DTD is malformed I do not expect to need in every case to
> explain what I mean.
You should absolutely explain what you mean; just like code decisions
need to have explication to justify their inclusion or removal.
Lots of people are involved with lots of aspects of Habari. By
explaining yourself thoroughly, you
a) reduce the likelihood of being mis-interpreted
b) demonstrate yourself as a valuable participant in decision making
c) help people with less experience than you learn from your wisdom
> expect the dev who purports to answer my question to be validating
> against a non existent standard while - by implication - attacking my
> professional capability - albeit in a limited sphere.
No one has attacked your professional capability. There seems to be
some misunderstanding, which leads to disagreement. If you feel that
this is in some way maligning you, then there is little we as a
community can do to help.
> Matthias does
> not understand why we want a theme lib. That's his problem. We will
> add our own.
How will you add a theme lib independent of core code to support it?
*I* don't understand why you want a theme lib. Is that also my problem?
Explain it to us. Explain it to us thoroughly. When questions arise --
as they will -- answer the questions in a thoughtful way. It is only
through repeated question-and-answer that we will all understand one
another. It is _far_ better that we take some time and communicate back
and forth so that as many of us understand the core Habari framework
than to have isolated fiefdoms of knowledge.
> Matthias does not know what presentational mark up is.
Who's insulting who?
More to the point, who cares? If one person doesn't seem to understand
you, don't let that one person drive you away. Matthias is one of _ten_
core members of the Habari project team. He is not the final arbiter of
Habari.
> The *designers*
> want drop down menus? They want centered admin panels? They serve up
> images about 2500 pixels wide? And these are the guys we need to
> negotiate our way past? Forget it.
Lots of people want drop-down menus. Explain to us why they are bad.
Share your wisdom with us.
> And any one who feels the same can join me. And if they don't I will
> work alone and distribute direct to the end user. A couple of folk
> used some of my old themes and found them useful. That was long before
> the CSS 3, *guaranteed not to render fully in IE* and photoshop guys
> even got started.
I certainly can't stop you from going forward with your habarithemes
project. But please don't expect us to pay much attention to your
suggestions down the road when the code you need for your themes is not
present in the product we ship.
Habari started because the four of us were fed up with lack of influence
in another project. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you
that we _do_ want your participation. We _do_ want your involvement.
Walking away now to do your own thing will never help you appreciate that.
Root
professional. I validate to recognised standards. One error is one too
many. And 79 warnings? Get real. Please.
Robin Adrianse
Computer Guru
streets don't make for good productivity. Someone's not hear to listen
to reason, I don't think there's much that can be done... "I DON'T
CARE" isn't exactly the best way to come to a solution, I think this
is a dead-end argument here, don't waste your time :)
--
Computer Guru
Founder
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/
Brian Rose
theme has been settled upon. Chris said he wanted to have a version of
K2 ship for Habari, not that it would be included in the final
package. Chill out, be less argumentative, and try to contribute
without insulting people.
Christ.
Rich Bowen
On Feb 3, 2007, at 12:57, Scott Merrill wrote:
>
>> Patches
>> Any one who knows the first thing about me will know that I am going
>> to release code for the interface.
>
> I don't know the first thing about you, Root. To assume that many of
> the participants in Habari know much about you might be a fallacy.
> Even
> if they do know about you, your participation in Habari might well
> reveal things about you that they did not know.
Likewise.
What I know about you, so far, has come from your posts to this
mailing list. I don't carry any baggage from another project, as I
was never involved in that project. You are welcome to participate
here. You don't need to "negotiate past" anybody. We are composed of,
to use the IETF's phrase, Rough Consensus and Working Code.
>> Dialogue
>> I feel it is going to be a lot easier to develop in an atmosphere
>> where we are sharing a similar vision and where I can contribute
>> without being flamed.
Yes. I agree. The flame level is getting rather too high, and it
would be untrue to claim that it's all directed one direction. This
is where Working Code comes in. Criticizing XHTML validation without
submitting the necessary patches to fix it simply doesn't help me
much, since I don't know, or care, anything about XHTML validation.
You appear to. Can you fix it? 'Cause, I can't, and I find it
perplexing that you'd devote so much energy to criticizing it, but
not provide a fix for it.
>>
>> My first post on K2 was positive, contributory,
>> encouraged dialogue and offered to help. It certainly pointed out the
>> deficiencies. I aimed off for the fact it is a hacked placeholder.
>> But
>> wait. Now it is going in the zip. Unedited apparently.
If/When we do a release, we have to ship with it whatever is
available at that time. If someone provides something else, and it
isn't strongly vetoed by anybody, then it will go into that release
instead. I wasn't aware that we yet had an alternative to the K2
theme. Please correct my misunderstanding. I admit my attention has
been elsewhere.
>>
>> Why does it not surprise me that K2 validates to CSS3 of all things?
>
> Why are you harping on CSS3? This has been addressed at least twice.
> Let me unequivocably say this:
>
> ** NO DECISION HAS BEEN MADE AS TO THE CSS REQUIREMENTS FOR HABARI. **
>
> I invite you to be part of the decision making process.
>
>> So when I say in a post
>> that the DTD is malformed I do not expect to need in every case to
>> explain what I mean.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this one. On the one hand, yes,
of course you need to explain it. I don't know the implications of a
malformed DTD. On the other hand, this is an open source, community-
driven project. If you know enough to state authoritatively that it's
a malformed DTD, can you please submit the fix that corrects this
problem? With all the heat that this discussion is generating, it
would seem that someone would have the fix. Can we just get the
problem fixed and move on? It's a *technical* problem, not a social/
community problem. There's no point getting riled up over this issue.
>>
>> expect the dev who purports to answer my question to be validating
>> against a non existent standard while - by implication - attacking my
>> professional capability - albeit in a limited sphere.
You are "the devs". You, personally, and you, the subscribers to this
mailing list. The fact that this is not the case on other mailing
lists, on other projects, if of absolutely no interest to me. This is
Habari. We are organized after the Apache fashion of governance. We
love to listen to people discuss, but we would rather have people
submit fixes. If the DTD is malformed, well, then correctly form it,
and let's move on. You clearly know a lot more about this than I do,
and I'm content for it to be that way. I don't know what a malformed
DTD is, and I'm frankly not very interested. Fix it. I don't know how
to.
>>
>> Matthias does
>> not understand why we want a theme lib. That's his problem. We will
>> add our own.
We anxiously await your patch. Please understand that this is a
completely serious statement, and is not intended to be snide. If you
develop this in parallel, there's very little guarantee that t will
continue to work revision to revision. If you do it within the Habari
project, it will be included in release-to-release testing, and
*will* be guaranteed to work. This latter option seems clearly
preferable.
>
>
>> Matthias does not know what presentational mark up is.
Neither do I. The folks who are the experts on this are obliged to
steer development in the right direction.
>>
>> The *designers*
>> want drop down menus? They want centered admin panels? They serve up
>> images about 2500 pixels wide? And these are the guys we need to
>> negotiate our way past? Forget it.
There are no official designers. This is not a company. It is an
Apache-style open source community. Rough Consensus and Working Code.
No negotiation is necessary. However, if you start a parallel
project, it seems that you'll be negotiating constantly in order to
ensure continued compatibility. And it obviously gives you a pulpit
from which to say nasty things about the Habari project, and generate
further animosity. Please, let's cut this short before it has a
chance to get started.
>>
> Habari started because the four of us were fed up with lack of
> influence
> in another project. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you
> that we _do_ want your participation. We _do_ want your involvement.
> Walking away now to do your own thing will never help you
> appreciate that.
And, I'd add that setting up a parallel project which makes Bin Laden
remarks about our community seems like a pretty good way to make sure
that you're not invited to the party. Please, let's stop this before
it gets out of hand. We want your participation. You seem to have
brought an awful lot of baggage along with you from Wordpress. This
isn't Wordpress. I don't know, and frankly, don't care, how your
contributions were received in Wordpress. I know how mine were
received, and that's why I was interested in starting Habari. Please
don't transfer your animosity from there to here. It's not welcome,
and it's misdirected.
Please also understand that this message is directed to all sorts of
folks who seem to be speaking to this mailing list as though it were
a subproject of Wordpress. I don't like using the W word. Not because
I hate Wordpress - I don't. But because it is damaging to assume that
everything that we do here is somehow governed by how things happened
there, and this is unjust. Indeed, most of the point of this project
is that it's a clean slate, both from a code perspective, as well as
from a community perspective.
I don't know anything about you, Root, but you're making a poor first
impression. You seem angry about offenses that I don't see committed.
You seem determined to foster an Us-And-Them vision of development
here at Habari that simply isn't how we do things. Please stop it.
Get on board, or don't. There's no compulsion either way. But sewing
division is not particularly welcome.
--
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings
Rich Bowen
On Feb 3, 2007, at 13:23, Robin Adrianse wrote:
> The CSS validator (and HTML validator to a certain extent) has
> warnings that don't matter at all. Errors are the ones that should
> be worried about. Trying to fix all the warnings (which have *no*
> detrimental effect for the most part, even looking at it standards-
> wise, not render-wise) is a wasteful task that ultimately reaches
> nowhere. Even the best sites have CSS warnings. But only errors
> matter, once again, for the most part.
I tend to disagree. On the PHP side, we have a stated goal of having
the code run silently under E_ALL. I think we should have the same
goal from the presentation side, too. It's not a waste of time, if
someone feels that it's important enough to spend their time on it.
You don't get to say what is a valuable use of other folks' time.
Open Source is all about scratching your own itch.
Root
On Feb 5, 2:40 pm, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
[Rich Bowen wrote a lot of stuff]
Thanks for that. Its amazing how fast this moves. In the 48 hours
since this thread blew up a lot of things have started or have
happened. Even today a couple of lengthy dev posts have been made on
subjects close to my heart. Many of the things I cared about are now
at least open to the process of development. It may just have been my
perception that they were not previously. It may be that the devs were
on other stuff. Maybe when the themers started we were impatient. Or I
was. So I am currently one happy blogger and would be habari hacker.
Where the cap fits I am wearing it. I may be carrying baggage. I dont
mean to. The fact remains in my view though that a lot of other
platforms have had similar teething problems in exactly this area,
with very varying results. I can tell you what my baggage is in one
sentence - in the very limited field in which I am interested I would
like Habari to be way better than anything that has gone before. Way
better. I hope to contribute. I hope to encourage dialogue. I hope to
highlight what I see as issues. It is just that things like Validation
and DTDs are our meat and bread. There are good reasons for that. And
if the perception ever gets loose (and I am sure it wont) that the
devs either do not see or do not care about it;
then we are bound to get *all riled up*. :) Maybe I misread Matthias 7
point rebuttal of my post. If so I apologise. Lets move on. My
pathetic habarithemes project is no threat to anyone. Its take up rate
is ZERO. :)
But it gives me a repository and a place to publicly collect my
thoughts and publish my code. That can't possibly detrimental to
Habari.
As to leverage. It is not my voice that is in the slightest bit
important. Themers of all descriptions are going to get involved. If
the ideas are good for Habari hopefully they will get included. But if
I download another Habari without a DTD and a charset I will shoot
myself. I promise. :)
Rich Bowen has just said something about - folk who think about this
stuff.
Here is why it is important. As a starter to illustrate my point - if
a document does not validate against a known DTD, it then becomes
completely unpredictable as to what the browser will do. God knows -
even if the darn thing validates - we guys then need to aim off. But
we do so against known variations from the recommended spec in the
browser rendering. We have a baseline. Of sorts. Once we dont'
validate - all bets are off. And chaos ensues. Not only do browsers
bork but it is very difficult to fix on a case by case basis.
Semantic, valid and accessible mark up and slick CSS is what we do.
It's our thing.
Next up. When the likes of Eric Meyer and Zeldman and Co see our stuff
the first thing they are going to do is read the markup and the CSS in
that order. If it is not up to scratch we will hear all about it. And
it will badly damage the brand. They will not care about the fancy
stuff. There are prolly 12 or so folk regularly posting here who are
up to speed on this stuff, so we should be alright. We are just
getting started. I want to do my bit. I may not have started in the
right way. But the log jam has cleared a bit now. We are rolling in
the theming department. So can we move on ? Thanks.
Rich Bowen
On Feb 5, 2007, at 11:46, Root wrote:
>
> Rich Bowen has just said something about - folk who think about this
> stuff.
By the way, when I say "I don't care", I don't mean "it's not
important." I just mean that I, personally, don't find it an
interesting topic. I am aware that it is important. I am glad that
there are people who care about it.
--
"He wrapped himself in quotations- as a beggar would enfold himself
in the purple of Emperors."
-- Rudyard Kipling