Horrible noise

[Paul Marx in France]

Having become acquainted with my Falcone on short trips and having been confined two months, yesterday was at last time to go out and ride.

A 120 km round trip was planned with my wife on her Laverda 500. Out to Notre Dame de Lorette, the largest French military cemetary outside Verdun and back home via the Canadian memorial at Vimy.

The ride out was lovely. At long last I could let the Falcone off its lease cruising very ably at 100 km/h in the sunshine.

We stopped off at Lorette where we took the photo and then headed towards Vimy, 10 km away. I got a bit lost and pulling into a lay by by the side of the road, there was a horrible screech. The bile was ticking over fine, just a rumble from the engine block and the occasionnal screech.

End of ride.

I took the Laverda, rode home and came back with car and trailer.

The rumbling sound is there when I turn the engine over on the kickstarter, in neutral or in gear. Clutch appears to work ok.Noise seems to be transmission related since no tell tale knock indicating a big end gone or a rumble from a main bearing though that would need checking.

I intend to pull the side covers off, to have a look at the clutch and gearbox bearings and main bearings before, if I find nothing, taking the engine out and opening it

I hate these "I have a noise, what could it be" questions, but are there any known things which could be responsible for the noise? Clutch basket nut? or bearings?

Paul

[Dirk Van Ussel]

Sounds like a gearbox bearing? Never had it before!

[Dirk Van Ussel]

Screeching noises usually come from dry running bearings,. Check  dynamo/magneto.

[Paul Marx in France]

Le mardi 19 mai 2020 14:58:47 UTC+2, Dirk Van Ussel a écrit :

Screeching noises usually come from dry running bearings,. Check  dynamo/magneto.

I've got the feeling it's a bearing.

I hadn't thought about that magneto but surely, no ignition if a magneto bearing packs up?

To check, I imagine I'd need to turn the mag over by hand?

Plus the fact that a certain roughness can be felt when turning the engine over on the kick start.

I'm just hoping that it's nothing to do with me having washed out the clutch with diesel fuel this winter and washed the oil out of the mainshaft bearing.

Paul

[Jerome Kimberlin]

My first inclination is towards the clutch.  I have seen clutch pressure
plates unscrew and scrape the cover.  Also seen them go the other way
and get so tight you can't release the clutch.  When you take off the
covers look for scrape marks on them.  Generators also howl when  their
bearings fail and the armature starts rubbing the field coil.  Bearings
are generally not a problem in Guzzis.  I've never seen one lock up to
the point where you could spin one in the crankcase.

JerryK

[Andrew Nahum]

Magneto bearings are pretty reliable. Also they are greased and semi-sealed. And I don't think you'd feel any rumbling or roughness from them at idle or on the kickstarter because they are tiny. I don't think, also, that you could have damaged the main bearing with a clutch rinse. There is plenty of oil in the crankcase to refresh it and rolling element bearings need only tiny amounts of oil. And diesel is oily as well. Of course anything can break in our ancient bikes but the clutch interference suggestion is definitely worth checking out.   

In my experience failed roller - or ball - bearings are impossible to detect at kickover speed. They would have to be completely wrecked with rollers falling out. I believe and hope you will trace the rumble to something simpler !!

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[pouma1954]

Thanks Andrew, 

It'll be off with the clutch cover first anyhow. I've ordered the tool for the flywheel  nut from Vajenti though a subsequent internet search sourced sockets locally. 

I've got a few things still in the pan at the moment, notably a 3 cylinder Laverda bottom end to open, so the Guzzi will wait a couple of weeks. 

Paul 

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-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Andrew Nahum <andrew...@gmail.com>

Date : 19/05/2020 23:19 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

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[Andrew Nahum]

Good luck! Which département in France are you in? 

Andrew

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[pouma1954]

Le Nord. 

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Date : 20/05/2020 09:53 (GMT+01:00)

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[Paul Marx in France]

Will get into the clutch as soon as I have the appropriate tool for the flywheel nut.

Are the flywheel nuts left or right hand thread?

Paul

[Patrick Hughes]

The nut will undo the same direction as the flywheel turns when the engine is running.

 

Regards
Patrick Hughes  

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[pouma1954]

Thanks Patrick. Lh thread. 

Paul 

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-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Patrick Hughes <patrick...@harmill.co.uk>

Date : 20/05/2020 13:14 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : RE: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

[Paul Marx in France]

Before I get my grubby little hands in there, I've been studying the parts list and the workshop manual. I've never been confronted with a clutch like that. I presume that from the outside, the first plate is a pressure plate and that the pressure is maintained by the two springs in the clutch lifting mechanism on the right hand side of the engine. So I need to take that off so as to relieve pressure on the pressure plate and dismantle the clutch?

Thanks

Paul

Le lundi 18 mai 2020 22:43:28 UTC+2, Paul Marx in France a écrit :

[SED Sci]

Yes.  And the bearing #20 (parts 21, 22 & 23) will fall onto the floor when you pull the cover off.  Note that 17 is left hand thread over 25.  17 has some optimistic knurling on it, but you will need some big pliers.  Guzzi gives a spec for the compression of the clutch springs (about 27mm) when you put it back together.

I have also had the threads strip on rod 24.  It would thread in, then during a ride slip 1 thread and the clutch would suddenly drag and transmission become difficult to shift.  Pressure plate threads were OK.  Something more to check.

[Don West]

Hi Paul 

Have you got the Falcone manual translations I picked up off eBay and shared with the group?

Hopefully you should be able to see them and save them from this link. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pepejv1tr27fgoc/AAA06GjRLcO1C4rG4FFeo6PGa?dl=0 

Don 

Le lundi 18 mai 2020 22:43:28 UTC+2, Paul Marx in France a écrit :

Having become acquainted with my Falcone on short trips and having been confined two months, yesterday was at last time to go out and ride.

A 120 km round trip was planned with my wife on her Laverda 500. Out to Notre Dame de Lorette, the largest French military cemetary outside Verdun and back home via the Canadian memorial at Vimy.

The ride out was lovely. At long last I could let the Falcone off its lease cruising very ably at 100 km/h in the sunshine.

We stopped off at Lorette where we took the photo and then headed towards Vimy, 10 km away. I got a bit lost and pulling into a lay by by the side of the road, there was a horrible screech. The bile was ticking over fine, just a rumble from the engine block and the occasionnal screech.

End of ride.

I took the Laverda, rode home and came back with car and trailer.

The rumbling sound is there when I turn the engine over on the kickstarter, in neutral or in gear. Clutch appears to work ok.Noise seems to be transmission related since no tell tale knock indicating a big end gone or a rumble from a main bearing though that would need checking.

I intend to pull the side covers off, to have a look at the clutch and gearbox bearings and main bearings before, if I find nothing, taking the engine out and opening it

I hate these "I have a noise, what could it be" questions, but are there any known things which could be responsible for the noise? Clutch basket nut? or bearings?

Paul

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[pouma1954]

Lovely. Thanks for that. Most useful.

Paul 

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-------- Message d'origine --------

De : SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com>

Date : 20/05/2020 22:43 (GMT+01:00)

À : Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Objet : [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

[pouma1954]

Thanks Don,

I have the Astore translation, the Falcone Falcone will be most useful. 

Paul 

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-------- Message d'origine --------

De : 'Don West' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Date : 20/05/2020 22:48 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

[Andrew Nahum]

Paul - yes you are right.  The clutch is unlike any other motorcycle. But if was designed by an engineer who was highly qualified, In fact he was certified. The friction pack is on the LH side of the engine/gearbox and as you have deduced the clutch sprIng is on the RH side and works through a transverse rod with a threaded end. On the RH side there is a cylindrical castellated nut which controls the spring pressure.  If the clutch was good before, count the exposed threads to recover the setting later (or the length of the exposed threaded shaft ).  
A. 

On 20 May 2020, at 21:19, Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[pouma1954]

Now I know where I'm going.

Thanks to all. 

Paul 

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De : Andrew Nahum <andrew...@gmail.com>

Date : 20/05/2020 23:11 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

[Paul Marx in France]

The right hand side is off. Helped by this list I measured the clutch spring compressed and the bit of rod protruding from the knurled wheel to be sure to refit everything as it was. All this very gingerly since it's a first on this bike.

Can one remove the clutch lifting rod from that side? Is it screwed in to the clutch pressure plate on the other side?

Thanks

Paul

Le lundi 18 mai 2020 22:43:28 UTC+2, Paul Marx in France a écrit :

[Patrick Hayes]

On 5/27/2020 6:03 AM, Paul Marx in France wrote:
> Can one remove the clutch lifting rod from that side? Is it screwed in
> to the clutch pressure plate on the other side?

The rod screws in from the right side of the bike and crosses through
the transmission.
Yes, the clutch pressure plat is the outer-most piece on the left side
and has a central threaded hole (6X1). Installation of the rod is
critical so you have to remove the flywheel and the left side cover
plate to assemble the clutch and rod.
The rod screws into and through the pressure plate. Its tip should be
exposed proud from the pressure plate but not more than 1mm or one turn
of exposed thread.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Paul Marx in France]

Thanks Patrick.

I thought so. I'll be dismantling the primary side in the next couple of days but I should be able to unscew the rod without accessing the clutch?

Paul

Le lundi 18 mai 2020 22:43:28 UTC+2, Paul Marx in France a écrit :

[Patrick Hayes]

On 5/27/2020 9:21 AM, Paul Marx in France wrote:
> but I should be able to unscew the rod without accessing the clutch?

Yes, you can take it out. You just won't be able to put it back in as
the pressure plate will likely drop away when the rod comes free.

Do you know how to take off the flywheel?

Careful when you remove the primary cover. The crankshaft gear has a
spring behind it and it loads pressure against the cover after the
flywheel is away. If you just start unscrewing the perimeter screws you
risk having the cover release at an angle and bend a screw. Remove all
the screws in small increments or else have someone else hold the cover
in place while you remove screws.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pouma1954]

Thanks again Patrick. 

Yes, I've read about the spring loaded primary gear and the precautions taking the cover off. I have the tool for the castellated flywheel nut and a rattle gun for the other one.

Paul 

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-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net>

Date : 27/05/2020 21:19 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

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[Paul Marx in France]

The whole of the clutch lifter mechanism is dismantled and I've found nothing wrong.

I found how to unscrew the clutch lifter rod by chance. I didn't find in any of the manuals the fact that the threaded sleeve needs to be pushed back and that it's keyed unto the part behind it.

I was wary of that castelated nut on the flycheel but it came easily, so the flywheel will be off later today and the clutch cover.

[Paul Marx in France]

Clutch cover is off. I needed a rattle gun on the flywheel center screw. The flywheel was a tight fit.

What I found wasn't pretty.The nut had comme off the dynamo shaft leaving the drive gear free. Both the nut and the key on the dynamo shaft have been reduced to filings, unless that key was missing. The dynamo drive gear is alloy and destroyed. The clutch hub gear is destroyed as well. Crank gear is ok.

So not too bad though I of course need a clutch hub and a dynamo drive gear.

I wonder if that key was there. I'll sift through the metal debris, maybe that'll give a clue.

[Luc Racine]

Hi there, 

I know how you feel (look up my post:

'in need of Grappa'

And the solution is here:

https://groups.google.com/group/guzzi-singles/attach/cdfe2567ac3c6cd0/wirelock.jpg?part=0.1&authuser=0&view=1

The crank gear and clutch baskets were only sold as a pair (€240incl)

Best of luck from Cork

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[SED Sci]

I've done that!   :(  

I use blue loctite now.  

[David Roper]

And I've been there, too, and after replacing the primary gears, mine is loctited too.

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[Patrick Hayes]

On 5/29/2020 1:32 PM, Paul Marx in France wrote:
> So not too bad though I of course need a clutch hub and a dynamo drive gear.

It is my understanding that the clutch hub is made of a sacrificial,
easily fragmented metal. Could be Spun Cast Iron? Jerry Kimberlin
would know. The clutch hub easily disintegrates in order to minimize
any potential damage to the crankshaft and transmission primary and
their related bearings. It is also my understanding that the crank and
clutch gears are produced and sold as mated pairs and should be replaced
as such.

This one went on our club's 2002 Tour of Corsica. Not sure what let
loose, but the results were ugly. Fortunately, we carry a mated pair in
our spares packet.

https://s25.postimg.cc/w705trafz/Dscn0519.jpg

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Patrick Hughes]

Luc, I would like to have a clutch basket and gear in my spares inventory. Where can I purchase from?

Regards Patrick Hughes

Harmill Systems Ltd.

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[Luc Racine]

Hi Patrick,

Guzzi retro in Abbadia Lariana just a mile down the road from the factory ,talk to him he is a gent with a mighty sense of humour if he does not have it he knows where to get one.

They are a good few little shops in Mandello that dont have a webshop (like motofornitura Valassi or Menni)

I had got mine from Marco Valenti at the time, has he run out of them?

Also the 9mm x 1 nut is hard to get! I got the 2 last ones in Valpolini a couple of years back ,you'll need model maker lathe tooling to make them.

Cheers from sunny Cork!

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[Patrick Hughes]

Thanks for that Luc, I will visit those places when I ride to Mandello next year for the Open House.

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[Paul Marx in France]

Got my bits.

Ordered the washer that goes behind the dynamo gear and a woodruff key for said gear.

Now I need to find the time to put it all together, not before a few weeks unfortunately but I'll be able to enjoy the end of the summer on the Falcone.

[Paul Marx in France]

Well, I've at last found the time to rebuild. The primary side is back together, cover is on it now. I managed to reclaim a thread for the cover luckily, someone had obviously been a bit hamfisted tightening that cover down previously.

I've put bearing housing glue on the dynamo shaft and strong Loctite on the dynamo gear nut which I've done up tight. It better hold!

New primary and dynamo gears seem a bit tight when turning the engine over. I presume (hope) they'll wear in.

If time permits, flywheel, gear selector and clutch lifter will be back on today.

[John O Regan]

HI Paul,

Tight gear mesh will cause problems, not to mention gear whine

There should be visible clearance between the gears especially the alloy dynamo one

when it heats up the mesh will get even tighter!!!!!

I would fit some shimming under the dynamo body to raise it up enough to give clearance

Some time ago Luc Racine posted a method of lockwiring the dynamo nut,

Regards

John

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[Mike Peavey]

Paul, Regarding the issue with the buggered threads for one of cover holes, it was possibly caused by someone trying to use the cover screws to compress the spring behind the primary gear.   I use an old flywheel nut and a piece of thick plywood with a hole to fit over the flywheel threads and big enough to cover the boss of the opening.  Just tighten the flywheel nut down until the cover is flush, then install the screws. 

By the way, I would love to find a sheet of whatever that material the factory used to adjust the height of the magneto, it’s, quite thin, slightly pliable, but dense enough to resist being compressed.

Best, 

Mike 

Boston 

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<train 1.jpg><train.jpg>

[Patrick Hughes]

It was probably something like Paxolin  or Tufnol, that is what we use as packing and also for insulating electrical equipment.

https://www.aiplastics.com/blog/srbp-p1-applications/ 

But you could also use Tufnol/glass laminate from Bay Plastics, not cheap as you have to buy a sheet.  http://www.bayplastics.co.uk/tufnolglass.htm 

Regards
Patrick Hughes   CEng FIMechE FSOE FIPlantE

Managing Director
Harmill Systems Ltd
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[Paul Marx in France]

Many thanks to you both, Mike and John. I fully appreciate the problems that would arise with too tight a mesh but retrospectively, the dynamo gear slipped on easily so mesh would be ok and once I'd put the cover back on and put in the regulation 60cc of oil, things turn over smoothly by hand on the kickstarter but I have 2 ongoing problems.

1) I have no adjsutement on the clutch. Once I'd assembled everything, the clutch was slipping because lifted to the point that the kickstart wouldn't turn the engine over. I'm looking into that bit by bit taking all the adjsutement out. Strangely enough, I measured everything up when taking it to bits and nothing was by the book. The clutch springs should be compressed to 27mm by the book, mine were at 33. Everything was working ok though.

2) I tried to get the flywheel back on which implies compressing the spring behind the crank gear so as to be able to screw the flywheel nut on. No way will I be able to do that by myself, it will require a second person, 1 pushing back the flywheel, the other to put the nut on. I presume that's normal.

Thanks

[John O Regan]

Hi All

Paul,

The test for gear mesh on another make of vintage bike is to pass a strip of writing paper between the gears as they are turned

the paper should be deformed but not be cut through afterwards

Some gasket paper would act as a shim if needed under the dynamo, not having removed the dynamo on my GTW, does it rely on the strap for earthing?

I did not have a problem refitting the cover on mine?

You probably need to go back to scratch and set up the clutch adjustment ? It could easily be different with the new parts fitted

John

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[Paul Marx in France]

Hi John,

The cigarette paper trick for gears reminds me of my Ducati singles, a long time ago.

I'll double check the gear mesh.

You misunderstood me. The primary cover went back on easily apart from having to reclaim a thread. The problem is the flywheel. The spring behind the crank gear is rated at 70 or 90 kg and no way can I push that spring back with one hand and start the nut on the thread. I'll need a third hand.

The only new parts are the 3 gears. Crank, clutch and dynamo. If I set the clutch up by the book, ie 1 thread of the clutch rod through the clutch pressure plate and the clutch springs compressed to 27mm, my clutch cable is too short. It will only hook up if the clutch is partially lifted which is what happened and explains why the engine wouldn't kick over with the clutch cable hooked up. It worked fine before I had to dismantle, the adjuster on the crank case was even completely screwed out. I don't have the necessary bits to make up a new clutch cable to hand.

Having tried a couple of combinations, it's obvious that there's a pretty fine line to toe to set up the clutch correctly. I've given up for today but will try screwing the clutch rod in a bit more, 1 to 2 turns. That'll give me sufficient play to be able to hook up my clutch cable and would explain why the clutch springs were at 33mm rather than the prescribed 27.

Paul

[John O Regan]

Hi Paul

Yes sorry , I got the flywheel on relatively easily as well

Is the spring seating properly on the gear?

John

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[Paul Marx in France]

Well, you're a stronger man than I John. The spring is rated at 70kg to compress it to working length. No way can I do that one handed. The spring can only seat properly.

So, my wife will be called in, and if that doesn't suffice, one of my sons.

Paul

[SED Sci]

The GTV shop manual indicates that the 2 long screws above and below the crankshaft can be used as a puller to compress the spring with the cover.  It says all 6 screws should be loosened and tightened equally, but the longer screws are the last to hold the spring-loaded gear.

This idea goes out the window if the screws are too short or the threads wrecked, but it has always worked for me (after digging sand out of the holes and getting the right length screws).

[Paul Marx in France]

I've no problem with the primary cover. It's all buttoned down. Spring resistance for the cover is very moderate, I just tightened the screws progressively as I would have done with a cylinder head for instance.

The problem I have is pushing the flywheel sufficiently against the spring pressure so as to be able to start the crank end nut on its thread and tighten down the flywheel.

On the clutch side, I've come to a compromise by screwing the clutch rod in more. Initially, I went by the book with 1 thread showing. From that, I've put another 2 turns on the rod. I've screwed down the springs nice and tight and lengthened the clutch cable by moving the screw on nipple at the end back a bit. I'll see what gives, once that flywheel is on and the engine running.

As mentionned above, on dismantling, I measured the length of the springs compressed and got 33.3 mm. The book says 27 mm. I didn't check the number of threads the rod came through the clutch pressure plate. The book says 1, but that's the only variable I have apart from too short a clutch cable.

If, once running, the clutch is troublesome, I shall go by the book and make up a new clutch cable.

Paul

[John O Regan]

Hi Paul,

I doubt if I am as strong as you make out ?? More likely the spring in my Guzzi is weaker ??

I would alter your cable to make it correct or make a replacement and leave the other settings as intended

On my GTW, I replaced  the clutch plates which is the reason I had that side apart also to check the dynamo nut

as Luc had a similar to yours event and warned me to check it

I will have to re visit the clutch on the GTW as it is not right , it does not free off as it should, (it has been flushed out )

At the moment I have too many other projects in bits and need to get them together before tackling the guzzi

John

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[SED Sci]

I need to read more carefully!  Yours must be very different than mine - the GTV has plenty of thread even with the crank gear against the cover.

I'm with John on adjusting the cable.  The angle of the arm seems critical to good release and the little set-screw in the arm can help perfect it.

Good luck!  May you have  a wonderful ride.   

[Paul Marx in France]

I tried to get the flywheel on with my wife. No go, so a bit of thinking was required since when force is called for, something hasn't been understood. I had a look at the original primary gear to see if the spring could engage badly. It can't. It occured to me that the dogs on the old gear seemed narrower than on the new one so I measured everything up. I fitted the old gear onto the flywheel, it's a tight fit.

Dogs on old gear are around 10.2, 10.3 mm. On the new gear, they're around 10.8, 10.9. The cutaways on the flywheel are just over 10 mm.

2 options therefore. Open out the flywheel cutaways, or take off the primary cover and fit the old gear back on. I suspect the "old" gear was new anyway on the obviously rebuilt engine and the teeth aren't at all damaged by chewing up the dynamo gear nut and key, if a key was fitted.

Paul

[John O Regan]

Hi Paul,

I guessed that there was some issue or other???

As far as I know the gears are matched pairs and should not be mixed

As to what would happen if mixed I do not know ??

I would take the gear off again and fettle it to fit the flywheel

The reason being it is unlikely that the flywheel will ever need replacing while who knows in another 50

years the gear might need changing again

John

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[Paul Marx in France]

Hi John,

Gears are matched so as to balance wear. Meshing a worn gear with a new one will accelerate the wear on the new one.

Anyhow, I've opened up the primary and the new gear dogs will not slot into the flywheel. Not because of a huge discrepancy in size but because some ham-fisted intervention (not me, I swear) in the past has very slightly burred the flywheel slots. I'll gently file back the burrs in the flywheel, checking fit as I go, and that should do it.

Then I can get back to the clutch.

Paul

[Paul Marx in France]

Further more, as I now have the two crankshaft sprockets, I visually checked the dogs of the two by putting them one against another. There is a notable difference, by eye, between 0.5 and 1mm, confirming my measurements.

Paul

[Paul Marx in France]

All back together on the primary side.

I had to grind down the dogs on the new sprocket, bit by bit, checking fit as I went.

When the dogs slip into the flywheel, it becomes easy to bolt the flywheel up.

Definitely not plug and play engineering.

You'll see on the photo that the dogs are substantially wider on the old sprocket than on the new.

Just the gear selector to get back on now and then we'll see how the clutch setup goes. Will do that between checking a 750 Laverda dynamo and checking a 500 Laverda, my wife's, timing.

The Falcone was found for me by someone I trust and I paid the price for what was announced as a fully restored machine. It was, but obviously largely untried. I hope that there'll be no other surprises than a dynamo gear nut without Loctite and maybe without a woodruff key.

Paul

[Rick Yamane]

Always something, ehh Paul?

Very possible the new gear is for a newer update and the update/supersession note never made it into the parts book the supplier uses.  He might appreciate a note on the subject.

 

It reminds me of what a good friend told me once while I was being extremely frustrated trying to put tank badges on my BSA.

He said “Rick, that is why in the factory workers were called “fitters” not assemblers.”

I thanked him for that bit of wisdom and went back out to my garage where I out loud but to myself proclaimed myself a “fitter”.

I did have to repeat that a few more times while “fitting” the tank badges but it was amazing what that slight change in attitude did for my nerves and completion of the job.

I’ve come to rely on that wisdom many times since. “I am a fitter!” Said with conviction and a bit of arrogance it works wonders. After all, being a fitter is far more important a job than being a simple assembler.

One time it didn’t work was while “fitting” a GPS system to the shop Sprinter but that’s a whole ‘nother ordeal! LOL!!!

 

Rick

 

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Marx in France
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 7:35 AM
To: Guzzi Singles
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

 

All back together on the primary side.

I had to grind down the dogs on the new sprocket, bit by bit, checking fit as I went.

When the dogs slip into the flywheel, it becomes easy to bolt the flywheel up.

Definitely not plug and play engineering.

 

You'll see on the photo that the dogs are substantially wider on the old sprocket than on the new.

 

Just the gear selector to get back on now and then we'll see how the clutch setup goes. Will do that between checking a 750 Laverda dynamo and checking a 500 Laverda, my wife's, timing.

 

The Falcone was found for me by someone I trust and I paid the price for what was announced as a fully restored machine. It was, but obviously largely untried. I hope that there'll be no other surprises than a dynamo gear nut without Loctite and maybe without a woodruff key.

 

Paul

 

.

[Paul Marx in France]

All finished and the bike started quite easily.

Clutch setup doesn't seem far off since getting into first and riding back into the garage didn't produce more than the usual drag that disappears after a few km. We'll see when I can road test it.

However, the flywheel and primary cover need to come off again which won't take more than a couple of hours from start to finish now  I know where I'm going since the cupful of oil put into the primary is finding it's way rather rapidly onto the floor.

I suspect that the cover is warped due to the previous attention of an owner. I didn't check when it was off. Nothing a bit of lapping in and plenty of gasket goo won't cure.

I ordered a set of cover screws form Valenti since the screw where I had to reclaim the thread a bit, supposedly a long one was too short which explains things and I couldn't find the right black screws at my usual suppliers.

Getting there.

[jerry atric]

Glad it's nearly there, always a nice feeling when you solve a snag like this.

[John O Regan]

Hi Paul

"A cup full" of oil is I believe waay too much

There is no actual seal around the crank / flywheel so it will pee out all over

My understanding is that "mist" from the crankcase does the lubrication

I think I mentioned that I need to revisit my Guzzi's clutch as it drags badly

No events here in Ireland this year to use the bike on and I also need to centralise the front wheel rim and sort out the brakes

so it's on the back burner for a while

John

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[Paul Marx in France]

Live and learn.

The user's handbook does say 60 grammes of oil after rinsing or rebuild, so I put 60cc in, but you're right, it's only supposed to maintain an oily environment.

I remembered that there's a drain hole that goes through the hole in the primary casing for the long screw at the bottom. Sure enough, that's where the oil is coming from.

Guzzi has done everything to evacuate the oil from that primary case. The drilling towards the drive chain, which is blocked chain side on my bike, and the other drilling mentioned above.

[Patrick Hughes]

Paul

Did you put the oil in through the cap where I usually pour the rinse in?

I have never put any oil in after rinsing, perhaps I should??

 

Regards
Patrick

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[pouma1954]

I did Patrick.

That oil was the object of an exchange on the singles Facebook page. I maintained that it was a dry clutch, which it is but it benefits from an oily environment. I discovered the 60cc of oil during the 27th read of the riders handbook.

And yes, that drain hole along the long screw does come from the recess in the primary cover behind the flywheel. There is a felt oil seal around the flywheel shaft but obviously excess oil is centrifugated along the flywheel shaft and escapes through that hole. 

Paul 

Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Patrick Hughes <patrick...@harmill.co.uk>

Date : 19/08/2020 15:51 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : RE: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/VI1PR1001MB10374ED39CC8E8BC540D5190CB5D0%40VI1PR1001MB1037.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Stephen Pate]

The need for a light film of oil is why a lot of people wash the clutch out with Kerosene instead of gasoline.... thinking it leaves a bit more of a film. Or.. gas to soak then Kero to flush. I use Kreen (from Kano Labs) which seems to do better than any alternative and no risk to the corks.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/VI1PR1001MB10374ED39CC8E8BC540D5190CB5D0%40VI1PR1001MB1037.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Rick Yamane]

Especially modern gasolines with ethanol. Very “dry”!

WD40 is also a handy solvent. More expensive than buying kerosene but in aerosol, it’s easy to put where you need it. I use WD40 and tooth and acid brushes a lot when preparing for shows.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Pate
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:39 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

 

The need for a light film of oil is why a lot of people wash the clutch out with Kerosene instead of gasoline.... thinking it leaves a bit more of a film. Or.. gas to soak then Kero to flush. I use Kreen (from Kano Labs) which seems to do better than any alternative and no risk to the corks.

 

.

[Paul Marx in France]

No corks in there Stephen.

The 2 friction plates are listed as Ferodo. All the other are bronze or steel surely?

Paul

Le mercredi 19 août 2020 18:51:25 UTC+2, Stephen Pate a écrit :

The need for a light film of oil is why a lot of people wash the clutch out with Kerosene instead of gasoline.... thinking it leaves a bit more of a film. Or.. gas to soak then Kero to flush. I use Kreen (from Kano Labs) which seems to do better than any alternative and no risk to the corks.

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[Paul Marx in France]

It would seem that if you follow the handbook and put oil in after flushing the clutch, it doesn't really matter what solvent you use.

WD 40 is an excellent paint stripper as well.

I tend to favour road dirts on my bikes. Even for shows.

Paul

[Stephen Pate]

In what bike are you referring to, where there are only metal plates without friction plates? I was speaking generally.. as in clutches universally... but now you have me curious what all metal clutch you speak of?

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[Stephen Pate]

WD 40 is an excellent paint stripper????
I am so confused.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:22 PM Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Stephen Pate]

WD 40

• 50-60% Naphtha (Petroleum), hydrotreated heavy.
• <25% Petroleum Base Oils.
• <10% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy (contains: 1,2,4-Trimethyl benzene, 1,3,5-Trimethyl benzene, Xylene, Mixed Isomers)
• 2-4% Carbon Dioxide.

[Stephen Pate]

Honestly... It "does" matter very much what "solvent" you use internally on engines.. and when there are friction plates on clutches... and seals internally... and....

I suppose if it is only your bike you are working on, and have no other real liability.. then you can use whatever you feel is best. I generally have those people call here trying to figure out why something went wrong, eventually. They never blame themselves for their methods.

The number of reasons for which solvent matters are many..... but for one... some solvents can render cork and asbestos and other friction materials compromised in several ways. The can also destroy or compromise seals and gaskets of various types.

So while I am speaking generally and not specifically.. it tends to matter, professionally speaking.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:22 PM Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[pouma1954]

Falcone. 

Paul 

Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Stephen Pate <werksin...@gmail.com>

Date : 19/08/2020 20:56 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

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[pouma1954]

Don't be 🙂

Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Stephen Pate <werksin...@gmail.com>

Date : 19/08/2020 20:57 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

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[pouma1954]

Don't worry. 

I have quite a few other bikes that I work on, all mine, andmywife's. I've done some work for other people. I will never do it again, most of them are a right pain in the backside.

I know fully well what solvents can do to many materials and use them sparingly. I did wash an oil bath Laverda clutch that had become imbibed with anti slip car oil in trichloethylene 25 years and 100 000 km back without adverse effects. The bike is still used very regularly. 

I am extremely surprised with the translation of the Falcone riders handbook in English which recommends rinsing the clutch in paraffin and makes no mention of putting oil in the primary case. The original Italian handbook says to wash in petrol and then pour in 60 grams of engine oil. Hence, the drain hole behind the flywheel. Very misleading for anyone not reading Italian. 

Paul 

Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Stephen Pate <werksin...@gmail.com>

Date : 19/08/2020 20:59 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/CA%2BmghZGsqgkQk3eJDFK3u-g_NtNhHRKm-0XNT7bYtVUyxdG4Kg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rick Yamane]

Europe must get a stronger WD40 than we get in the US. I’ve never had it soften paint let alone remove it.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Marx in France
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 11:22 AM
To: Guzzi Singles
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

 

It would seem that if you follow the handbook and put oil in after flushing the clutch, it doesn't really matter what solvent you use.

 

WD 40 is an excellent paint stripper as well.

 

I tend to favour road dirts on my bikes. Even for shows.

 

Paul

 

 

Le mercredi 19 août 2020 19:42:47 UTC+2, Rick a écrit :

Especially modern gasolines with ethanol. Very “dry”!

WD40 is also a handy solvent. More expensive than buying kerosene but in aerosol, it’s easy to put where you need it. I use WD40 and tooth and acid brushes a lot when preparing for shows.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Pate
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:39 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Horrible noise

 

The need for a light film of oil is why a lot of people wash the clutch out with Kerosene instead of gasoline.... thinking it leaves a bit more of a film. Or.. gas to soak then Kero to flush. I use Kreen (from Kano Labs) which seems to do better than any alternative and no risk to the corks.

 

.

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[Stephen Pate]

It is actually widely used by restoration professionals in multiple fields (from motorcycle and car fields to history and science museums) to "feed" / preserve old paints on antiques and vintage items. The other widely trusted thing that gets used on nearly every substrate from leather to paint to chrome is Lemon (no other variant) Pledge. 

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[Patrick Hughes]

You learn something every day on this site 😊

 

Regards
Patrick

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[Rick Yamane]

When I had a Suzuki dealership we would use Lemon Pledge or other furniture spray wax to shine up bikes on the showroom floor. It was quick easy and worked great.

A friend of mine used to use WD40 to “wax” his van. I use it to remove old sticker goo from painted and plated surfaces. It’s supposed to work well as a tar remover too. Just never saw it do anything negative to paint.

 

I do judging at the Quail. One thing I always look for is whether or not the owner cleaned the bike up for the judges and public. Rust, scratches and other signs of use are not a problem but dirt and grease that can be removed, I don’t want to see.

 

Rick

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[Mac Dennis]

Probably where Honda got the idea and/or formula for Honda Pro Polish. Very good stuff!

Tri-Flo is my favorite for old paint rejuvenation.

Mac

[Paul Marx in France]

Road tested the Falcone this afternoon. 4 or 5 km, twice around the block.

Clutch is dragging a bit so will have to get back into the compression of those springs on the rh side. No more oil from the primary case.

If I get it sorted in time, there's a 100 or so km outing planned with my wife on her 500 Laverda Sunday to a village fête with an old bike gathering. Would be nice to take the Falcone.

[Paul Marx in France]

Well, I must have f...ed something up.

I took the Falcone out to test the clutch.

First time out, it was dragging. I wrongly took some pressure off the two springs on the right hand side, it was worse, the engine would stall as soon as I tried to get first gear. So I tightend the springs up by 2 1/2 turns on the adjuster, started the bike up, tried firs, and it stalled. I started it again and the flywheel came off.

Not too much damage, but the nut had unscrewed obviously and the woodruff key has sheared. No damage to the crank end or its thread luckily, but the central nut needs changing along with the woodruff key.

I've no idea what I could have done wrong. I used a rattle gun to tighten the nut and used blue loctite. Maybe I didn't tighten the castellated nut enough, the one that needs the special tool.

Paul

[Stephen Pate]

First thing...

"I've no idea what I could have done wrong. I used a rattle gun to tighten the nut ...."

Unless you really know your tool and how to use it in the application.... using a "rattle gun" on ANY crank can be a disastrous thing. I have literally lost track of how many cranks I have had to repair or rebuild as a result of someone doing that that did not understand or have the right setup on things. I AM NOT SAYING that is what YOU did..... but... you sheared a woodruff key... so the only feasible things that I think of first would be : 1. Wrong key or incorrect installation of the key / flywheel. 2. Damage of key or keyway(s) when the flywheel was installed / tightened with an air impact due to misalignment or incorrect torque, etc. Done correctly, you would not need to loctite the nut... and blue (there are several formulas that come in blue.. so go by number... but I will assume a medium strength basic thread-locking compound), typically does not offer anything of real value in that application.

The fact that it came off, let alone that it happened so quickly... leads me to suspect there is more going on! Yikes.

If you can post up some pics of things as they are now... I can try to be of some *actual* help!

Sorry you are having issues Paul. That sucks.

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[Miles Carnahan]

The strength of the connection of flywheel to crank relies on both surfaces mating. If there are high points that only touch at a couple of points between the two then that connection is weak and will result in "flywheel down the road". Put a straight edge on it and look for daylight between the crank and straight edge. You can use lapping compound but be careful not to take much material off otherwise the flywheel will get too close to the cases.

Good Luck!

Miles

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[Andrew Nahum]

Miles is absolutely right but the tapers just must be lapped together so that the friction bond is rock solid.  It is the interference fit between the tapers that carries the load.   If the flywheel ends up too close to the crankcase something else is needed but let’s not go there yet  !!

On 1 Sep 2020, at 22:35, Miles Carnahan <miles.c...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Stephen Pate]

It is use of am impact, without any other considerations, that keeps the tapers from seating correctly on a lot of machines.

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[John O Regan]

Hi

I'm wondering if the new gear on the crank is preventing the flywheel from seating on to the crank taper ?

An oversize key could do the same ????

John

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[Paul Marx in France]

Thanks to all for your answers.

I had a partially sleepless night due to worrying about what had happened.

I finally got around to taking the primary cover off this morning and will sleep better tonight.

There are very slight traces of a knock between the dogs on the primary gear and their location in the flywheel.

Crank taper is unmarked as is flywheel taper. Crank thread ok.

A tiny bit of alloy swarf in the bottom of the cover due to the primary gear having hit the cover when the flywheel came off. Will need to take the clutch to bits, again, to clean everything up.

So, the hypothesis is: woodruff key sheared due to flywheel not well against the taper and/or use of rattle gun though it appears that some of you do use a rattle gun for tightening that nut.

There was a slight knock on opening the throttle and a ring from the flywheel when I kicked the engine over, from the start. I should have taken it seriously. My stupid fault. That key was obviously broken from near the restart of the bike.

Since the dogs in the new crank gear wouldn't fit in the flywheel and needed a bit of adjusting to do so, I had a quick measure of the new gear against the old, dimensions appear identical and the gear sits nicely against the flywheel when its dogs are engaged. So likely that the flywheel is against the taper when tightened down. Any way of checking that on reassembly?

Is there a particular procedure for assembling that flywheel?

It'll be a while before I put it back together. I need to order a new crank end nut, its thread has suffered and of course, I need to dismantle the clutch and clean the lot up.

Paul

Le mercredi 2 septembre 2020 01:20:42 UTC+2, John O Regan a écrit :

Hi

I'm wondering if the new gear on the crank is preventing the flywheel from seating on to the crank taper ?

An oversize key could do the same ????

John

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 11:32 PM Stephen Pate <werksin...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is use of am impact, without any other considerations, that keeps the tapers from seating correctly on a lot of machines.

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[Jerome Kimberlin]

Paul,

While you have the clutch cover and flywheel off, please try the following:

Remove the small gear and spring.

Place the flywheel on the end of the crankshaft and push it onto the taper as far as it will go, then see if you can rock it back and forth.  This will tell you if the flywheel taper and the crankshaft taper are seated together.  If you get any movement, then you will have to lap the flywheel and crankshaft together.  Of course, make sure both taper and socket are very clean and oil free.

Then once you are sure the tapers fit together solidly with no movement, put in the key and do the same thing all over again.  Any movement will tell you that the key is too thick and will have to be filed down.  When you have no movement with the key in place, note how far the end of the crankshaft sticks out from the face of the flywheel.  If there is any protrusion, you will need to make sure there is a little more than and equal amount of missing threads in the large flywheel holding nut.  Tighten the nut with the flywheel and key in place and check for any movement up, down, and sideways.

Remove the nut, flywheel, and key.  Replace the large spring and pinion gear.  Replace the side cover.  Replace the flywheel and put on the flywheel nut.  Tighten the nut with a regular socket wrench as far as it will go and check again that the flywheel is solid against the crankshaft.  At this point and if all seems good, you can give the nut a hit with the impact wrench.  If you have done everything correctly, the nut should move very, very little.  Then put on the clinch ring which is a left handed thread and tighten.

That's about all there is to it.......

JerryK

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[Paul Marx in France]

Hello Jérôme,

Many thanks for these basic checks. I don't understand the reference to the crank and nut threads?

On reading your mail and on reflection, Stephen Pate is quite right. I didn't even get the nut up tight before using the rattle gun but used it straight away, shearing the crank key from the start.

I need to order a new key which would seem to be either 5 x 5 x 20 or 5 x 5 x 25 mm. Anybody know exactly.

I was a bit worried about getting the bit of sheared key out of the crank and after trying to pick it out, I tried a magnet, and out it came.

Paul

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[SED Sci]

I just got a larger key (inch dimensions) and filed it down.  The key is an alignment aid, not like splines that carry a load.  They are often called shear keys.  Don't think the rattle gun would shear the key (maybe misunderstanding).  Jerome may be suggesting that the nut got tight on the threads - crank threads too long for the "top hat" nut - before the flywheel seated on the taper.  

The difference between the the first time you had it running - when the failure was the dynamo gear not the flywheel - is the timing gears suggesting that the new crank gear is the problem.  Any chance that the new crank gear is thicker than the old and keeps the flywheel from seating on the taper.  Perhaps the recess for the spring is shallower and the spring coil binds before the flywheel seats.

I had my flywheel come loose and shear the key and a friend suggested heating the flywheel before installing it on the taper.  The slight contraction as it cools helps hold it.  

Let us know what you find.

[jamesro...@btinternet.com]

Hi Paul after the con rod broke I have  mine completely apart. At present as I’m using I phone can’t post new topics, only reply. If you remove flywheel n clutch cover then the sprocket cover you can take the 

Clutch basket n gear out, your left with a steel disc this you can rotate by hand and change gears (chain off ) I’m sure you will feel hear the problem if it’s in the gearbox. 

One design I’m not clear on is the primary drive. The crankshaft turn the flywheel the drive passes to the primary gear via a notch. The gear is spring loaded to engage the flywheel . Presumably a shock absorber ? If the gearbox locked perhaps this would completely disengage ? What is odd it that this gear engages with the clutch basket gear, and drive through plates surely this would slip ? Anyway my point is that the movement of the gear is oscillating has caused quite a bit of wear on the crankshaft the gear must pivot about the axis occasionally you have a feeling as if the drive is reengaging  and an odd noise. 

I noticed that the ercole has two notches at 90degrees which would prevent this. Happy to send photos by e mail 

                     Regards Hengis R 

[Paul Marx in France]

Key is 5 x 5 mm and will shear pretty easily. Low quality steel of some sort. Probably a fuse, just like the clutch gear, obviously a lot softer than the crank gear.

;I've measured the new crank gear. It's near enough identical to the old one. Recess for the spring is 0.5mm deeper on the old gear which I put down to wear. Too little to cause my worries anyhow.

The crank end nut isn't "top hat" on my machine so no risk of it bottoming. I don't like those domed nuts, messed up too many threads in my younger days.

I've ordered the new key(s) and will rebuild when it arrives in the post mid week.

I'm trying to balance the work, rebuilding a Laverda 3C triple, getting a Laverda 750 S 1970 totally sorted on the road, will be out again with it tomorrow, and finalising a 54 Laverda 100. The Guzzi has to fit in between all that.

To imagine that I bought the Falcone because I wanted a no problem older machine. I've learnt a lot in the few months that I've had it.

Paul

[Paul Compton]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 21:17, Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Key is 5 x 5 mm and will shear pretty easily. Low quality steel of some sort.

I'm going to take exception to your use of the term "low quality".

A low quality Steel would be one that does not meet its composition
requirements, or had inclusions or voids.


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[Andrew Nahum]

The key is not meant to be high strength steel. If it is high tensile, it tears the slot in the crank taper when the joint fails and gives you lots more pain to recover and re-machine that slot. 

So the key is mild steel - not low quality, but a grade chosen for purpose. All steel grades have some purpose..  As someone has remarked, it  is the taper fit which retains the component.  If that is not good the key will not hold it for long.  

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[Paul Marx in France]

Bit by bit.

Got some new keys.

The original, and the crankshaft slot are between 2 sizes commercially available which are 5 x 5 x 20 and 5 x 5 x25. The original key is around 22.75 mm long. Filed one down from 25 mm and it fits perfectly in the crank slot.

Tested the flywheel and crank end taper. Not much in it. There is a very slight rocking noticeable in one plane only, so will lap it in a bit tomorrow. And will mark the crank end so as to test again with the key in situ so as to make sure it isn't too high.

Then clean every thing up and reassemble.

Paul

Le vendredi 4 septembre 2020 23:30:49 UTC+2, andre...@googlemail.com a écrit :

The key is not meant to be high strength steel. If it is high tensile, it tears the slot in the crank taper when the joint fails and gives you lots more pain to recover and re-machine that slot. 

So the key is mild steel - not low quality, but a grade chosen for purpose. All steel grades have some purpose..  As someone has remarked, it  is the taper fit which retains the component.  If that is not good the key will not hold it for long.  

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:18 PM Paul Compton <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 21:17, Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Key is 5 x 5 mm and will shear pretty easily. Low quality steel of some sort.

I'm going to take exception to your use of the term "low quality".

A low quality Steel would be one that does not meet its composition
requirements, or had inclusions or voids.


--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)

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[Paul Marx in France]

Looks like I'm holding the right end as the French say.

Primary side and case all cleaned up.

Clutch cleaned and reassembled by the book, well, the Astore book, that's to say 1 thread from the rod out of the pressure plate and 27mm on the springs.

I'd lapped the cone in a bit and obtained a nice mat grey surface on the crank and in the flywheel Degreased it all and put the flywheel back on and tightened the central nut up by hand. No rattle gun. I used my torque wrench since it's longer and has more leverage than the reversible one and set the torque to the maximum, ie 10NM. Bike in gear, me sitting on it with back brake applied to block the engine. Then the castellated nut with left hand thread. Both with Loctite 271 thread lock.

Started the bike up and all feels nice and tight. Now for some road testing to adjust the clutch.

First time around, I got it all wrong. Rattle gun used before the flywheel was torqued down by hand and as Stephen Pate diagnosed, that's when I sheared the key after which the flywheel progressively came loose. I shouldn't have ignored the knock coming from the engine due to the primary gear dogs being loose in the flywheel no doubt.

Paul

[Roger Rowland]

Hi Paul great you got it all together up and running.

                          Flywheel found the castellated lock nut tool to be difficult to use might design a “better” one could get a small batch made.

Also undoing both nuts found that a tommy bar with a tube extension to the floor unlocked them easily the momentum of the flywheel assisting the process.

Be nice to identify the taper not sure how this is,or if it’s done in metric. 

We have some tapers called Morse used on drills n milling machines etc.

If the taper is beyond repair there is a way of solving this with a modern design coupling.

                       A friend had his flywheel come off on the road it took a considerable time to find it!!

Sent from regards Ratt my iPhone

On 14 Sep 2020, at 18:07, Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:



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