Falcone Tourismo 1960 issues

[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

Hi lads,

 I have a vibration from about 1000 rpm which doesn't clear untill 3000+, I have no rev counter so these are a guess.  It makes the fuel tank rattle and when parked on the stand the bike will move backwards if the engine is revved up, several inches. I have clocked the outer rim of the flywheel and it has 0.15mm (0.006" ) run out and the side run out is 0.05mm( 0.002" )  is that enough to cause it and is there a tolerance figure?

Apart from an oil leak from the ends of the kickstart shaft she is fine.  Thanks for any advice given.  Barry

 

[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

I should have added does anyone know where I can get a new pushrod tube top end seal please, I have tried the obvious sites with no luck, perhaps you know a source I don't.  

Thanks  Barry

[Alan Comfort]

I think that the flywheel runout that you describe is excessive. If the "runout" is caused by a loose flywheel or by play in the crankshaft bearings, then this must be addressed. If you firmly grasp the flywheel and try to wiggle it, you should not be able to feel any axial or radial play. If you can feel any play, the first thing to check is the flywheel nut after removing the lock ring. If the flywheel nut is tight then you are looking at the job of replacing the bearings, as well as addressing all the other issues that will be revealed when you open the engine. There is a fair bit of work and expense in overhauling these engines, but the upside is that you will never have to do it again.

If you cannot feel any play in the flywheel, it could be loose engine mount bolts or a cracked frame.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

Hi Alan,  Thanks for your suggestions and I will explore them, I bought the bike from Germany late last year and pulled the motor out earlier this year to do a full check on it.  Mains/Ends/Bore/Pistons were all good with very little wear. I suspect it had been restored about 15 years ago and was on display for a long time.

 

With the engine out it was easy to check the chassis so I am pretty confident that there are no cracks, although I did find the bottom front engine bolt missing completely !!

 

The flywheel is immovable in any direction apart from going round, I have used levers and dial gauge and there is no concerning movement.  It has crossed my mind that the absence of an engine matching number on the back of the flywheel and no arrow for timing that it may not be from the original engine.  Guzzi could not have machined each flywheel to match a particular crank as that would be ludicrous wouldn’t it ?  In that case they must have a tolerance and 0.003” peripheral and 0.001” side to side bearing in mind my measurements were the maximum up/down so the medium would be 50% of those given.  With todays CNC machines I am sure that tolerances are measured in 1/10ths of thou’s are common but with pre-war manual machines I cannot imagine a thou limits were achieved.

 

I can see me stripping the engine just for peace of mind Alan lets hope my confidence is not misplaced.

 

Regards

 

Barry

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[Alan Comfort]

It sounds like the engine internals are sound and that the vibration is in the flywheel itself. It might be worth the trouble of removing the flywheel and checking the run out on a lathe and the balance on a dynamic balancer. Most machine shops can help you with this.  Another option is to find a fellow Guzzista who will loan you a flywheel. It is not unheard of that improperly installed Guzzi flywheels have parted company with the engine and have taken unauthorized excursions down the road. These flywheels are quite robust, but the trauma caused by an adventure like this could result in some invisible damage.

It is also possible that the outboard end of the crankshaft could have suffered some crash damage at some time in the past. That will be easy to check with the flywheel is removed.. A half a thou at the end of the crank shaft will be magnified significantly at the perimeter of the flywheel.

Alam in Roberts Creek

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[Gordon de la Mare]

If there is a bit of movement then why not just lap it in lightly using valve grinding paste (finer the better).  

Only a light lapping should be needed and that should do the trick.
Don't overdo it.

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[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

Thanks Gordon, Another string to my bow as we said in the 1300’s when Robin and I roamed Sherwood forest.

 

I will post whatever I find.

 

Thanks

 

Barry

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[Andrew Nahum]

Could the piston be the wrong weight? i.e. Is it a true Falcone piston? Three thou runout at the flywheel perimeter doesn’t sound like enough to generate vibration at those revs.  

On 30 May 2023, at 13:21, Alan Comfort <alan.c...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Barry]

Hi Andrew, how do I discover the weight of a given piston compared to standard without a strip down.  But you could be onto something.

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[Andrew Nahum]

Err - no way I can think of. So not a vey helpful remark. I wondered if you might have photographed the piston or noted any markings on the crown at strip down. 

On 31 May 2023, at 15:09, Barry <ba...@shifta.co.uk> wrote:



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[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

Nothing I can remember Andrew.  I have an oil leak from the top push rod tube so might have to lift the head so might as well have a look at the piston top.  If by any chance it is stamped

“0verweight” or “ obese “ I will let you know………..  I still think you suggestion has more weight to it.

 

Regards

 

Barry

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[ba...@shifta.co.uk]

I have found an oil seal for the pushrod tube and collecting today from Hempo who is racing at Cadwell.  Does anyone know how much advance there is in the Magneti Marelli Magneto with the Automatic A/R.  Last time I set it at TDC  and expected the advance to be correct but wonder if it will be too retarded.  I have all the figures for a manual set up.  e.g. 93mm btdc on the outside of the flywheel, assuming a standard fltwheel.

Sunshine out there and a bike off the road, its not good !!

[Roger Rowland]

Hi I was confused by this particularly the limited advance of 15 degrees the answer I believe is that it’s running half speed so 15 equates to 30. Which sounds right a tuned Ducati goes from 6 BTDC to 38. Personally I think it should tick over at 8 BFTDC as I have been assured that modern fuel is slower to burn than the old four star. A classic bike shop I know says exactly the opposite perhaps their right. Again a Ferrari workshop at Silverstone said they always set at 6 BTDC as a starting point. I cut a hole in a timing disc and stick it on with blue tack. Be nice to make an adjustable magneto like a distributor I started this but have forgotten where I got to😳

                 Regards Rog U.K.

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On 3 Jun 2023, at 12:27, ba...@shifta.co.uk <ba...@shifta.co.uk> wrote:

I have found an oil seal for the pushrod tube and collecting today from Hempo who is racing at Cadwell.  Does anyone know how much advance there is in the Magneti Marelli Magneto with the Automatic A/R.  Last time I set it at TDC  and expected the advance to be correct but wonder if it will be too retarded.  I have all the figures for a manual set up.  e.g. 93mm btdc on the outside of the flywheel, assuming a standard fltwheel.

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[pouma1954]

From every source I've read, modern fuels need retarding a bit. We never had four star in France, we have octanes.

🙂

Paul

Envoyé depuis mon appareil Galaxy

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : 'Roger Rowland' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Date : 04/06/2023 21:38 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone Tourismo 1960 issues

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[Alan Comfort]

I find that it is best to set the magneto timing to full advance because that is where the engine is running most of the time. If the timing is off at full advance, you will lose power and/or hole the piston. The auto advance will take care of the retard position that will ease starting and allow for the slow idle needed to engage first gear at a stand still. 

Here is a very good article for timing your 'slicer, in case you have not already used it:

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/falcone_ignition_timing.pdf

Alan in Roberts Creek

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