Ki Chuan Do and the "sportfighters"
Robert
about six months I decided to quit and look for a martial art that
will allow me to defend myself on the street.
While browsing through some books I found "AttackProof" and I believe
that I have found what I was looking for. If I lived in NewYork I
would be attending classes at one of your locations but unforyunately
I live in California.
Recently I introduced myself on Bullshido.com and I started asking
questions about martial arts styles and saying that I'm interested in
a street style like Krav Maga, CQC, and that I really like KCD.
Apparently that forum is full of insecure, closed minded and childish
people. As soon as I mentioned John Perkins and KCD they all exploded
in a torrent of foul language.I was shocked!It's pretty close to a
BJJ, MMA cult.
I've read some of the old threads, in 2004, where they offered to send
"Omega the Merciless" a Kung Fu and NHB fighter, to New York to test
his skills against one of Master Perkins advanced students, and the
fight would be recorded on video.
Apparently the offer was declined (?) and then they all started saying
that they proved you were all frauds.
Please do not get this the wrong way. I'm not trying to start
anything. I have a lot of respect for Master Perkins and for the KCD
students who have shown remarkable restraint on the forum while they
were attacked and insulted by the Bullshido trolls who basically do
not present any rational argument against anything. All they do is
gang up and "flame" anybody who has a different view.If you're not
BJJ, Muay Thai or Judo then you are a troll.
I would like to ask, why was the challenge not accepted? From what
I've been reading on this website and forum you have already dealt
with highly trained martial artists from other styles including
grapplers and they were beaten and overwhelmed by the KCD
instructors.Why not put this on video and show the world? I mean, I'm
sure that if these claims were proven KCD would take off in a big way.
Why not let Major Al take down that Omega person and have it all on
video? Why allow the Bullshidokas to disrespect Master Perkins and say
that he is a fraud, when all could be settled with a few videotaped
matches.
My second question.
There are no KCD schools anywhere near where I live. I have the book
and I want to get the DVD's. How should approach training? Shoud I
practice the principles on my own and start taking a martial art like
CQC or Wing Chun (who has the Chi Sao sensitivity exercise similar to
Contact Flow).
If I train in a regular martial art like BJJ, Judo, Jeet Kune Do, will
the practice of the drills help me become a better fighter?
Sorry for the long post, I'm new to the martial arts and I'm trying to
get as much info as I can so I won't waste my time in a useless style.
Thank you.
Admin
Glad to have you aboard and thanks for your question. This is a very
reasoned and dignified posting and it deserves a like-minded response.
The "Challenge" referred to was made and encouraged by 3 overzealous
enthusiasts of KCD (one of them was not even a member of our school at
the time) and NOT by any authorized representative of Ki Chuan Do or
the Attackproof.com website. The individuals responsible were severely
reprimanded.
John was prepared to set up a workout with legal waivers and other
safeguards, but by this time the above mentioned "discussion" had
rapidly degenerated into a typical, infantile, webforum cyber-slog
along the lines of "my Daddy can @#%&* your Daddy" with disgusting
obscenities and actual physical threats issued against John and other
members of our school. This is absolutely the wrong attitude and
environment for an enlightened "exchange of knowledge." No one is
welcome in our school who makes threats against its members. This is
not only unethical and illegal, it's foolish since our school is
filled with active duty police and military. This was a regretful
scenario and shall not be repeated.
We have nothing to hide and will work out with anybody from any style
with respect and the right attitude. John Perkins has an open
invitation to anyone with an open mind to come and work out in a safe,
non-threatening and non-competitive environment. Chapter 1 of our book
states: "Challenge no-one" and throwdowns and competitive matches are
not and never have been what KCD is about.
Sportive competitions have rules which prevent life threatening
injuries and thus allow the participants to easily use full speed and
full force. KCD principles were designed specifically to cause injury
or worse for real-world life and death situations (with and without
weapons) at full force and speed. We're not talking about patterned
technique training where "if you do this, I'll do that... and just
imagine that I'm breaking your arm." Our stuff is completely free-form
and non-cooperative and you can actually feel stuff happening to your
body just short of injury.
Also, our goals, methods and training are different: we do not intend
to "win," gain submissions, taps or even knockouts. A "throwdown" demo
with KCD won't work because the intentions don't mix. A sportive
competitor won't stop unless he is submitted, taps or is knocked out.
Since we don't do locks, holds, or go for knockouts, there is no
opportunity for a highly motivated competitor to stop unless his eyes
are gouged, windpipe crushed, etc., which is how we train
exclusively.
The cops, military and security personnel attending our classes know
how easy it is to permanently damage or kill a human being when the
gloves are off. Obviously we can only demonstrate to a certain point
on a live person. But we need to be clear on this: there are ways to
make certain that what we teach will work in reality.
Our training is completely free-form, unchoreographed and absolutely
anything goes, except for injuring your training partner (which isn't
to say that it doesn't happen occasionally). You don't actually have
to have your throat crushed or neck broken to know how certain blows
and manipulations can work: they occur frequently and randomly as a
spontaneous part of the motion. You definitely feel all this every
time you Contact Flow. There's plenty of free-form physical
interaction in a typical class for a person to judge the validity of
what we do.
High level grapplers and martial artists who visit are not subjected
to matches or "beatings"; they work out with us and many of them
choose to join. Much of our school is made up of these people and
nobody's preventing anyone from getting on a plane and seeing for
themselves.
As for your second question Rob, here's what we recommend:
"HOW DO I PRACTICE KCD IF I DON'T LIVE IN NEW YORK?
First, go to the "Find a Training Partner" page. Second, find a school
(Close Quarters Combat or American Combato based on Applegate,
Fairbairn & Sykes) that teaches simple basic strikes, like palm heels
to the face, eye gouges, edge of hand to neck, head butts, knees, and
low kicks, train them as fast and hard as you can against various
targets, from every angle, in every combination, and combine it with
completely free-form "play" with as many different partners as you can
(without hurting each other!!). Add a course in basic self defense
awareness and confrontation de-escalation. Finally, you can try and
find a Tai Chi school that teaches real combat tai chi and incorporate
internal energy principles (like softness and "cold power").
It might be practical to take ROSS (Russian Martial arts or Systema)
as long as they offer some opportunity or forum where you can practice
free form fighting as opposed to regimented fighting (as long as it's
not a bunch of psychos who go home bloody every night). This way, you
have a place where you can work in Ki Chuan Do (KCD) principles and
see what happens. This can be helpful because KCD principles can work
with any art--KCD is not about techniques--it is a WAY of moving.
Russian Systema has a fairly free-form practice system. Barring this,
if you can find a Tai Chi push hands class, you can make some great
progress if you have some open-minded workout partners. You just work
in deadly striking movements at slow push hands speeds along with the
typical pushes, brush backs, etc.
Another possibility is to join a Jeet Kune Do school because they tend
to be fairly open-minded. Again, you could try out some KCD with an
open-minded partner and try to develop that way. Note that it's
important at some point to come to NY to feel what KCD feels like from
Master Perkins or a senior instructor to verify that you're on the
right path. That "feel" takes seconds to understand (but longer of
course to master).
In addition, a wing chun training partner can be helpful; we have some
members who train with WC practitioners and get a lot out of it if
they can agree to mix their Chi Sao with Contact Flow. It depends on
the people you meet. We also have students who train BJJ. Good
grapplers tend to develop a higher level of full-body Sensitivity than
many other stylists.
In general, we recommend working out with as many different people
from as many different styles as possible.
Robert
I just finished watching your DVD on Native American Groundfighting
and I have some questions.
At some point Major Al says that boxing is not good for self defense
and that there are only a few people in the world who could make it
work . However I've been reading on people like Geoff Thompson who's
been in a lot of serious encounters as a bouncer and he recommends
boxing as a first line of defense on the street and crosstraining in
grappling.Here's the link in case somebody wants to look into it:
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-geoff_thompson.htm
Also I personally know boxers/muay thai people who succesfully not
only defended themselves in street fights but were able to do a lot of
damage to their opponent with ease. Fairbarn seems to be saying the
same thing about his techniques" They are not designed to compete with
the boxer or judo expert, they are for pulling yourself out of a jam."
A lot of the anti grappling defenses shown in the video focus on
eyegouges and neckstrikes to stop the grappler. I've been told that
there are Vale Tudo events where absolutely everything is allowed,
including eyegouging, and they do not make any difference to the
outcome of the match. For example in Vale Tudo 94 in Japan, Gerard
Gordeau (a superb striker) eyegouged Yuki Nakai, a judoka, and
permanently blinded his eye. Nakai kept on fighting with a blind
bloody eye and won the fight with a heel hook. Not only did he beat
Gordeau but he got into another fight in 20 minutes(with one eye
blind!). I've also seen such a fight on video where everything was
allowed, the striker attempted some kind of eyegouges in vain as the
BJJ person went for the takedown, took him down lightning fast and
ended by snapping the striker's arm.
I'm not questioning the effectiveness of KCD or trying to start a
debate, it's just that some of these sportfighters are bringing up
some good and logical arguments. I'm sure that there are a whole lot
of internal principles in KCD that cannot be seen on video but have to
be felt in person. I am and will continue to be a firm believer in
internal martial arts done the right way. I just like to keep an open
mind on everything and ask questions,especially when there are good
arguments on the other side.
Admin
"I have one question to start with. How many blind Vale Tudo fighters
are there? I have
heard this stuff many times before. If you saw one of the UFC fights a
few months ago you
would have seen where one of the fighters was accidentally poked in
the eye, causing him
to stop fighting for quite a while until he felt better. That was only
a shallow scratch.
I worked on a crime scene where a teen ager killed his father while
under the influence
of angel dust. The father was forced to strike his son repeatedly on
the head with a
hammer but died when his son gouged deeply into his eyes and
penetrated into the brain. I
guess that the old man should have practiced for many hours a day to
become effective
enough to stop his son with some boxing and grappling. Oh! I almost
forgot: the father was
30 pounds heavier and worked as a laborer.
I was caught on a stairway fighting for my life against three men
where I was forced to
poke one of them in the eye (which stopped him) allowing me to get out
my firearm and club
one of the others into unconsciousness. The third ran off. I guess I
should have boxed
and grappled these guys. The two I dropped had knives on them which
they were not able to
pull out in time. The situation happened suddenly-- they and I were
surprised on the
staircase when I ran into them in the middle of a drug deal.
I agree with Mr. Thompson concerning mixing boxing and grappling. In
certain situations
where you are not worried about being stabbed to death or jumped by an
attacker's friends,
a young, strong, well trained man could make the sportive stuff work.
It is even better
when the opponent is less well trained and less strong. I could not
imagine what would
happen if a person were relegated to fighting fair against a larger,
stronger and well
trained man. Developing KCD principles will make most of your training
work better.
I teach some of the best and biggest bouncers in New York City. I was
hired for a few
reasons; one of which is to teach these men to deal with other men of
similar size who are
bodyguards to some bad guys who frequent certain night clubs and like
to get their way,
using their bodyguards to take care of business. Many of these
bouncers are trained in
boxing, ju jitsu and some were college football linemen. The smaller
ones were about 6'
5" tall weighing in at 275 lbs to 300 lbs. the larger ones are 6' 8"
or more and weighing
in at 360 lbs. to 440 lbs. All of them are quick and can be ruthless.
All of these
bouncers found that they could fight far better in a very short time
once they developed
more balance, timing, sensitivity, looseness and power.
I have seen some good boxers and martial artists deal with fights in
bars pretty well. I
have also seen some good practitioners get their heads handed to them
by bigger and
stronger men. None of them fared well against multiple attackers.
Fairbairn may have stated that using the basic close combat stuff was
not designed to
fight a boxer or other professional fighter. I would agree that this
could be true. There
was very little time in WW2 to train men to fight so only the most
basic strikes were
taught. In KCD we take these strikes to a new level. Developing your
attributes to a high
degree and learning how to effectively put these strikes together
under chaotic
conditions is only the first step in KCD training.
To go further and train in the Guided Chaos principes over time will
allow even far more
effective strikes which can be performed on the move with a serious
assailant.
I know of a fight that took place in Iraq where a knife wielding
maniac attacked a U.S.
military member. The military man was attacked so quickly that he
could not bring his
rifle up to bear for a shot and was forced to crush the knifer with
his rifle. Do you
think he should have stuck with the BJJ training he received?
I can only say that if you are young and strong you can make much of
the sportive
fighting work under proper conditions. I believe that training in the
various sportive
martial arts is excellent for conditioning and in most cases develops
good sportsmanship
and character.
I personally would not wish to fight anyone without good reason. If a
person wished to
fight me using grappling technique should I fight him fair knowing
that his training is
based on limb breaking and strangulation? Of course not. How do I know
how far someone
will go with a strangle hold for instance? If someone wishes to attack
me with
potentially deadly force should I be relegated to fighting fairly? How
many friends does
he have waiting to stomp me into dust? Since my life may be on the
line and somehow my
attacker was able to get close to me and attempt to take me down
should I not hit him in
the throat or pierce his eye or cut him? I will not answer this
question. I leave it to
you do think on this. Remember there is no guarantee that your
attacker will be nice.
That is why we practice for worst case situations. There is no room
for machismo on the
street or even in your local bar. Unless you are a mind reader you do
not know the
intention or your assailant(s). This is one reason why we practice
delivering the most
power to the most vulnerable targets availabe.
I hope this helps you understand why Guided Chaos/KCD principles are
important.
Take care, JP"
Ari
Great questions, and thanks for asking them in an intelligent way (as
opposed to, "You try that eye gouging crap with me, I'll break your
leg!!!").
Re: Boxing and Geoff Thompson:
Remember where Geoff (an excellent man and instructor) is coming from:
working the door in England. He won most of his "fights" by setting up
the other guys verbally and with body positioning and then cold-
cocking them before they knew what was happening. So he made boxing
"work" for him by always manipulating the situation so that he could
apply his well-honed right. Not everyone always has this luxury. If
real violence erupts and you're not able to end it pre-emptively,
things get very chaotic with way more elements involved than those
allowed and trained in boxing. So, in order to rely on boxing for self-
defense, you have to have such great speed, timing, power, mobility,
durability and evasiveness (as well as overall awareness and knowledge
of real violence) that you can somehow cancel out all the other
elements with your superior attributes. I agree with Lt. Col. Al that
there are few people in the world naturally gifted and talented enough
to do this reliably. Even so, remember how Mike Tyson (certainly a
talented and gifted individual!) handled his street fight with Mitch
Green: a pre-emptive punch (that broke his hand), followed by running!
Why run? Paraphrasing Tyson: "I haven't been in a real fight since I
was a kid!" Because of his rough childhood, Tyson knows the
difference. Now, remember that every situation is unique, as is every
person, no matter what martial art a person practices. Many people
with NO training at all have been able to defend themselves
successfully many times. An untrained but tough-minded elderly woman
who runs a home invader through with a fire poker has just dished out
more damage than any boxer or kickboxer in any match! What we're
training for is to adapt to and survive any situation. I believe that
boxing is not the best thing for most people to practice for strictly
self-defense purposes (it's far from the worst though!). That is NOT
the same thing as saying, "Boxing doesn't work!!!" Again, it all
depends on the person and the situation. I could train boxing and
knock out a drunk guy hassling me in a bar. Boxing works!!! Then the
drunk guy who it turns out learned to shank people in prison ambushes
me with a knife on my way home two weeks later. I get stabbed up and
die. Boxing doesn't work, prison knife fighting does! My grieving
mother then finds the guy who killed me and runs him over with her
car--five times. Knife fighting doesn't work. . . .
By the way, the Fairbairn quote you reference is actually saying that
close combat is not meant to help you in a Judo or boxing match, but
is intended to save your ass in a fight for your LIFE, which is VERY
different! Real, lethal violence, when combatants want to KILL each
other, has a very different dynamic from ANY match fight, even one
with few or no rules. Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neil, and most all of the
other WWII-era close combat scions were experts at all forms of sport
fighting--boxing, wrestling, Judo, etc. They all acknowledged that the
attributes developed by participation in such sports were good for
soldiers. Why, however, did they teach the close combat courses rather
than just teaching boxing and wrestling moves???
Look closely at the stuff on the Groundfighting DVD. What John does to
Tony to prevent Tony from taking him down (I assume this is the
segment you're referring to) does not DEPEND on eye gouges and other
"dirty tricks." Yes, such destructive methods are employed simply
because they are destructive, but what make them work when John
applies them to Tony are John's balance, sensitivity, looseness and
body unity. It's the DELIVERY SYSTEM that MAKES the tools work. NO
WHERE has any Guided Chaos instructor said that in order to stop a
grappler, "Just eye gouge him!" Obviously, if Joe Schmoe with no
training tries to stop Tony or any other high-level grappler from
taking him down just by moving his finger towards his eye, he'll get
taken down very hard, very fast! Observe what John does: he USES the
eye sockets and other areas to manipulate Tony's balance and movement,
not just to say, "I eye gouged him! He's done!" Listen to what Tony
says: NOT "Ow, he eye gouged me," but stuff like, "He instantly
changes his root, he gets huge leverage on my neck, he constantly
changes to negate what I'm doing." Also note that an eye gouge that
really penetrates through the back of the eye socket or hits nerves in
and around the socket will have a much more telling effect than
whatever happened in Vale Tudo '94. Further, even if truly anything
were allowed in a competition like that . . . how many of the
competitors actually TRAINED to USE "foul tactics" effectively???
THAT is the difference: Guided Chaos training trains students to use
EVERYTHING within the chaotic dynamics of real violence. We don't just
practice boxing and grappling within their rule structures and then
say we'll be able to apply foul tactics that we never trained if we
get in a tough place. Also note later in the DVD how Lt. Col. Al
prevents the real takedown attempts of George without actually
damaging him. Obviously there's more to it than just eye gouges and
throat strikes. It's the whole Guided Chaos delivery system that gives
you the ability to make everything work.
Also, think about this: Did Nakai actually WIN with that heel hook???
Yeah, Gordeau tapped or maybe even had his ankle damaged, but Nakae
was permanently blinded!!! I know which one I would prefer! If Gordeau
were actually trying to kill Nakae, would that heel hook have stopped
him??? Who knows???
Of course, "arguments" can go back and forth ad infinitum with no
meaningful resolution, because in the end, it comes down to this: How
prepared are YOU to save the lives of yourself and your loved ones in
any possible violent situation??? I know the answer for myself. No one
else can answer it for you.
Ken F.
"The 5 Levels of Cooperation", newsletters #46-50 and the more I
observe real fights and even sportive MMA competitions the more I
realize just how accurate those writings are. You can read it in the
newsletter archives. Afterwards, and this is key, you have to find a
way to make it to New York so you can actually feel it for yourself.
The reason why this is so important is because while others may have
the exact same philosophies about fighting, many of them live in a
completely cooperative or theoretical world.
If you can touch hands with a master instructor, you can know beyond
any doubt that this stuff is official and the best part about it is
that you won't get severely injured.Your learning curve will benefit
tremendously because you'll no longer have any subconscious doubts and
your mind will be free to completely absorb the material. All those
little details in the book that sound like exaggeration or "too good
to be true" are real as long as you put the time and effort into
training.
Brian Denyer
Hi Fellow list members:
Major William Ewart was the SOE Instructor stationed
at
STS 103/Camp X responsible for Silent Killing. This
was before the US entered WW2. He then was seconded
to the OSS. Camp X was located in Oshawa and a short
drive from Toronto. The good Major explained about
boxing
in the Camp's Manual classified as Most Secret.
Section I subsection 4, covers "close combat" and I
will quote, for your conveniance, some passages.
"This system of combat is designed to for use when you
have lost your firearms, which is something you should
not do , or when the use of firearms is undesireable
for fear of raising an alarm.
"At some time or another, most of you, probably been
taught... boxing under the Queensbury rules.
That training was useful because it taught you how to
think and move quickly and how to hit hard. The
Queensbury rules enumerate, under the heading of
"fouls", some good targets which the boxer is not
trianed to defend.
This, however,is WAR,not sport. Ypur aim is to kill
your opponent as quickley as possible.
So I have to agree with Major Al. Boxing is excellent
for staying in condition. But for multiple opponents
...well.
After boxing for a while at 14 years of age. I
thought I was pretty good. Being 6'tall and 180 lbs
gave me some confidence. Little did I know. Three
older guys
decided to knock the stuffing out of me in the
dressing room at a local pool. Hey I TKO'd one and
beat back the others by surprise and positioning. The
only problem was the main opponent fell forward too
fast and my hook caught his cranium instead of the
temple.
After the crack sound my hand went numb. Pool
officials came over and broke it up. Then my hand
started hurting like hell.
Later the X-Ray revealed a boxer's fracture.
I ran and got out of the area. They all came running
after me. Making it to a transit stop I hopped a
streetcar and to safety.
So for me the lesson were
1)hitting too hard against the skull bone doesn't
work. 2) A little knowledge is *&^%$ dangerous
3)I had to learn some more dirty street fighting.
So I kept going to Judo classes, lifted weights and
started to learn Kung Fu as the only non oriental in
the club. Classes were free and the only cost was the
standard black sash worn by all the students with the
knot tied on the left side.
Being a demo dummy brought alot of laughs and gave me
first hand experience. The, well almost, the entire
club membership was better than me and tried out their
tricks. After a couple of years I had practical
knowledge of the sneaky but effective manouvers.
The Master gave me a special mixture of herbs to rub
on the multiple bruises I earned. By the next
mourning they were just faded yellowish areas.
Brian ..................................
**********************************************
--- Robert <rcb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
...At some point Major Al says that boxing is not good
for self defense and that there are only a few people
in the world who could make it work . However I've
been reading on people like Geoff Thompson who's been
in a lot of serious encounters as a bouncer and he
recommends boxing as a first line of defense on the
street and crosstraining in grappling...
...Also I personally know boxers/muay thai people who
succesfully not only defended themselves in street
fights but wereable to do a lot of damage to their
opponent with ease. Fairbarn (sic) seems to be saying
the same thing about his techniques" They are not
designed to compete with the boxer or judo expert,
they are for pulling yourself out of a jam."...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Ken F.
fact that it's inadequate for multifighting. Unless you're dealing
with a boxer whose skill level border on the seemingly supernatural,
when you get into clinching/grappling range, their attributes pretty
much go out of the window. I've trained with people that boxed and not
one of them had any amount of short power that could affect me in this
range. I could almost completely smother their strikes. That being the
case, chances are that you can't bypass overwhelming size, speed and
strength advantages using traditional boxing and IMO the only way to
effectively box/strike in clinching range is by doing Guided Chaos or
similar internal training. That being said, I still think boxers are
some of the toughest and most durable guys out there, even if it means
lack of longevity/extreme loss of coordination from taking repeated
shots to the head as they get older.
Brian Denyer
Thanks Ken :
From what I have seen of Guided Choas
it is the best matrix of blended
combat so far.
The only other ones who have
similar energetic flow
were the advamced students
and guests who demonstrated
for us.
For close-in boxing there is
"Boxings Dirty Tricks and Outlaw killer Punches"
Which contains some real nasty surprises.
Kung Fu appears to have similar
movements as boxing.
For the close in fighting
we used a very narrow internal hallway
and the outdoor alley for practice.
In both light and dark conditions.
Brian .............................
**************************************
--- "Ken F." <poeti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great post Brian...my personal gripe with boxing
extends beyond the fact that it's inadequate for
multifighting. Unless you're dealing
with a boxer whose skill level border on the
seemingly supernatural, when you get into
clinching/grappling range...